184 réponses à ce sujet

[The Angry One]

Yes, you're right Arch. There's no other option than to turn the base over to Timmy McEvil.

But there should be.

[wolfstanus]

Nightwriter wrote...

Computron2000 wrote...

ok found the video, TIM has 6 ships and an evil smile (Shepard dying is good for him, i'm guessing)


its from 1:25

This evidence is irrefutable, ambassador.

PROOF. THE ILLUSIVE MAN IS EVIL!!! EEEVIIIIIIILLLLL!!!

I knew he was evil before seing that video... He allows his operatives to torture innocents to  insanity just to see if they know anything. He experiments on humans to make obedient super soldiers, and the big thing supports enslaving other races under humanity. 

[Nightwriter]

Archilochos wrote...
Nightwriter, the Poles need you to report to 1939, stat!

@Silent: You didn't crush the base under your heel; you're all talk.  Why should your team respect you?

Again, I think people are getting hung up on the base itself.  The decision really has more to do with Cerberus.  TIM is not to be trusted.  You shouldn't need your team to tell you that handing unknown very powerful tech over to terrorists is a bad idea.  The question isn't really about the base, it's about GIVE the base to TIM and only TIM, or deny it.  Those are the only options we're given.  We can't call up the Alliance or Council, we can't ask Mordin to get on the horn to the STG, we can't can't drop Wrex a line and say "I've got a present for the Lord High Researcher."  Keeping the base in and of itself seems fine, if 1: you can hold it, and 2: it won't be in the sole possession of a megalomaniacal terrorist nutjob who uses his Alliance intel codename the way a Batman villain would his 'badguy' persona.

TROOF. PLAIN TROOF.

I shall weep for the Poles, for my time machine was destroyed in an unfortunate schmelting accident.

[Computron2000]

wolfstanus wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

Computron2000 wrote...

ok found the video, TIM has 6 ships and an evil smile (Shepard dying is good for him, i'm guessing)


its from 1:25

This evidence is irrefutable, ambassador.

PROOF. THE ILLUSIVE MAN IS EVIL!!! EEEVIIIIIIILLLLL!!!

I knew he was evil before seing that video... He allows his operatives to torture innocents to  insanity just to see if they know anything. He experiments on humans to make obedient super soldiers, and the big thing supports enslaving other races under humanity. 

Yeah it was just an alliance of convience.

[TLK Spires]

that's not why it's evil.



you gave space hitler a galactic oven. there's your evil.

[Bigdoser]

hah galactic oven. I prefer the name milkshake maker, anyway so some people actually trust TIM?

[The Angry One]

Nobody trusts TIM, most of us who want to keep the base want to give it to someone else.

[Silent Perforator]

Archilochos wrote...
@Silent: You didn't crush the base under your heel; you're all talk.  Why should your team respect you?

Again, I think people are getting hung up on the base itself.  The decision really has more to do with Cerberus.  TIM is not to be trusted.  You shouldn't need your team to tell you that handing unknown very powerful tech over to terrorists is a bad idea.  The question isn't really about the base, it's about GIVE the base to TIM and only TIM, or deny it.  Those are the only options we're given.  We can't call up the Alliance or Council, we can't ask Mordin to get on the horn to the STG, we can't can't drop Wrex a line and say "I've got a present for the Lord High Researcher."  Keeping the base in and of itself seems fine, if 1: you can hold it, and 2: it won't be in the sole possession of a megalomaniacal terrorist nutjob who uses his Alliance intel codename the way a Batman villain would his 'badguy' persona.

I don't care about the morality of the decision ( the whole setup reeks of the fake morality of Star Trek TNG ). The reaction of the crew afterwards is not consistent with the renegade conversations the player has with them up to the ending. You can't have a forceful renegade commander solving the Tali/Legion and Miranda/Jack disputes with threats and then having them question your decisions later just because the writers think it was the wrong thing to do. That's what I meant as bad writing.

[Asheer_Khan]

Nightwriter wrote...

Computron2000 wrote...

ok found the video, TIM has 6 ships and an evil smile (Shepard dying is good for him, i'm guessing)


its from 1:25

This evidence is irrefutable, ambassador.

PROOF. THE ILLUSIVE MAN IS EVIL!!! EEEVIIIIIIILLLLL!!!

THAT SNEAKY LITTE....  CHEATER!!!!

So the whole visit on dead reaper was another trap  to get rid of Shepard since Timmy ALREADY posess reaper IFF devices... so now after seeing this video Timy can kiss good bye not only that base but, Normandy and those data aquired during rescue agent mission (I will send them to the Alliance).

Modifié par Asheer_Khan, 25 février 2010 - 12:38 .

[Anacronian Stryx]

The Angry One wrote...

Anacronian Stryx wrote...

Lets see.. The Alliance had "Biotic Acclimation and Temperance" a nice little completely amoral testbed for biotics,

Turns out governments do distasteful things to get ahead, who knew?

Just like Cerberus does distasteful things - No difference.

The Alliance sent spy satellites armed with nuclear fusion warheads to spy on the Turians during the first contact war.

Yeah, it was a war.

Even war has rules, The Berzerker Sat's was clearly against the Alliance own rules, Why else would try to cover it up. - This is not unlike something Cerberus would do.

The Council had no scruples about uplifting an entire race for use as shock troops in a war that was the Councils own fault, And then turn around and release a bio weapon on said troops when they turned on them.

It was the Council's own fault for opening mass relays?
And the Krogan already nuked themselves a dozen times before they were uplifted, if not for the Council they'd probably be extinct by now.

The Council opened the Mass relay that lead to the Rachni and the war, It is per definition their fault, The Krogan had nuked themselves but lived and thrived very well in their own way until they meet the council and ultimately the genophage, But this is beyond the point of the morality in the Councils actions which was poor in the extreme. - I'm not sure even Cerberus has the scope to do anything this immoral.

Only difference between The Alliance, Council and Cerberus is that the Alliance and the Council operate with casualties in the millions or billions for their mistakes.

The Alliance has it's good points and bad points. Cerberus exists only to further TIM's personal agenda.

The goal of all three organizations is to do "good" and they all fail miserably, Like i said i wouldn't trust the Alliance, Council or Cerberus with the base.

[Bigdoser]

I would trust no one with the milkshake maker its too dangerous.

[Nightwriter]

The Angry One wrote...

Yes, you're right Arch. There's no other option than to turn the base over to Timmy McEvil.
But there should be.

More troof.
Honestly, I think if there'd have been an option to give it to the geth instead of TIM, I would have.

My outlook on the geth changed in ME2 after everything that Legion told me, and they're probably the only ones fit to study the technology anyway as they can't be indoctrinated the way organics can. They're also not as prone to corruption.

Toss in the fact that they appreciate the threat of the Reapers and really want them gone and I actually might've considered it...

[cronshaw8]

Aisynia wrote...

Dr. Peter Venkman wrote...

The Alliance wouldn't be picking up the ship, Cerberus would. I played enough of ME1 to not trust them based on their horrible track record.

You have the only ship that can reach it.

actually Cerberus could reach it too. Right up to the mission and durring the mission EDI is sending info back to the Illusive Man. They make a big deal about monotoring the ship. He has been working on a way to replicate the reaper IFF so he can send ships through to get at the Collector Base. He is weeks if not months ahead of everyone except shepard. No one but Cerberus would get access to that Base if you don't blow it up. And staying to "defend" it isn't a realistic option either, even as great as the normandy is, it is one ship and damaged.

[Fjordgnu]

While not having the option at all seems a bit strange ( though I would never have considered any option other than blowing it up, for many reasons ), I doubt it would have been any different from actually blowing it up. The Normandy - a Cerberus ship - is the only one capable of reaching it, and I'm not convinced the Illusive Man would let you hand it over to the Alliance.

[Raphael diSanto]

Silent Perforator wrote...

Archilochos wrote...
@Silent: You didn't crush the base under your heel; you're all talk.  Why should your team respect you?

Again, I think people are getting hung up on the base itself.  The decision really has more to do with Cerberus.  TIM is not to be trusted.  You shouldn't need your team to tell you that handing unknown very powerful tech over to terrorists is a bad idea.  The question isn't really about the base, it's about GIVE the base to TIM and only TIM, or deny it.  Those are the only options we're given.  We can't call up the Alliance or Council, we can't ask Mordin to get on the horn to the STG, we can't can't drop Wrex a line and say "I've got a present for the Lord High Researcher."  Keeping the base in and of itself seems fine, if 1: you can hold it, and 2: it won't be in the sole possession of a megalomaniacal terrorist nutjob who uses his Alliance intel codename the way a Batman villain would his 'badguy' persona.

I don't care about the morality of the decision ( the whole setup reeks of the fake morality of Star Trek TNG ). The reaction of the crew afterwards is not consistent with the renegade conversations the player has with them up to the ending. You can't have a forceful renegade commander solving the Tali/Legion and Miranda/Jack disputes with threats and then having them question your decisions later just because the writers think it was the wrong thing to do. That's what I meant as bad writing.

This, this and more this. To have the -entire- crew disapprove of your decision just hit me as massively unrealistic, from a character point of view.

.. Of course, my Shepard's pretty ruthless and was happy to hand the base over to ol' timmy, since these days he seems to be the only one who cares about the threat to the Galaxy. Sure, he only cares about it because it threatens humanity, but at least he's taking it seriously, and he's the only one with money, power and influence that is.

War makes for strange bedfellows..

[cronshaw8]

Silent Perforator wrote...
I don't care about the morality of the decision ( the whole setup reeks of the fake morality of Star Trek TNG ). The reaction of the crew afterwards is not consistent with the renegade conversations the player has with them up to the ending. You can't have a forceful renegade commander solving the Tali/Legion and Miranda/Jack disputes with threats and then having them question your decisions later just because the writers think it was the wrong thing to do. That's what I meant as bad writing.

I wondered at this myself Mordin in particular seems to do an about face.

[Nightwriter]

Bigdoser wrote...

I would trust no one with the milkshake maker its too dangerous.

Mmm... milkshakes...

[cronshaw8]

also people act like no tech/intel is recovered from the base if you blow it up. EDI has been doing her AI thing the whole mission. Evidence of this is the reaper schematic at the end. Not as much tech/intel obviously. But it's not as if Shepard is a luddite

[DuffyMJ]

It really is a matter about fear compromising who you are. If you're scared of the Reapers, then using their tech against them seems like he only way to possibly beat them. This happened in Japan in the 19th Century after an American battleship fleet parked off the coast near Yokohama -- the country industrialized and did that whole Last Samurai thing (hehe...) On the other hand, you can think of many countries/societies which -- while outnumbered and doomed -- had strong resolve and chose their own destiny. The British during the Battle for Britain, for example, used the (then) untested radar technology, air fighter defense, diplomacy with Roosevelt, innovative tactics like when they made the first-ever aerial torpedo attacks on the Italian fleet, etc. etc... What they didn't do was, well, naz-i-fy themselves.

Modifié par DuffyMJ, 25 février 2010 - 12:52 .

[AntiChri5]

If only i could give it to anyone but Cerbures....

[TMA LIVE]

Blakes 7 wrote...

1) Proof. By this point you have now spent two whole
games trying to convince the rest of the galaxy that the Reaper threat
is real. One of the major reasons the battle is so desperate is because
you’ve been working alone. Here is unambiguous proof of an advanced
enemy with hostile intentions.

If the corpse of Sovereign didn't prove or allow anyone to learn s**t, then I don't think a Collector base that makes Repears out of organic gew will do anything other then give the Council the ability to make their own repear. Aka Bad.

Blakes 7 wrote...

2) Memorial. Keeping the
facility is crucial for
understanding who died here, and how. If
nothing else, looking for
bodies and dogtags to send home would have
been worthwhile and offer
some families a sense of closure.

Your crew might of died just so they can stop this thing. They even turned into gew in this thing. You betray there memory and what they fought for just by letting this thing exist.

3) Technology. Yes, study the
technology. Just
because the Slurpee machine of evilness is horrible
doesn’t mean that we
shouldn’t understand how it works and why.
Particularly when you’re in a
war and the enemy has you outmatched
in both numbers and tech.

The idea that we shouldn’t understand a technology because it has been

used in evil ways is a line of reasoning that borders on primitive
superstition.

You had the corpse of Sovereign, and that lead nowhere. Cerberus even had the corpse of another repear, and that lead nowhere. The Collector base is a repear factory that makes repears. All you're learning is how make a repear. Who's going to use it? Tim, or the Council. Do you trust any of them?

[Silent Perforator]

DuffyMJ wrote...

It really is a matter about fear compromising who you are.

Actually, no, it's about being curious about the technological capabilities of my enemy. An enemy that made it very clear that its aim is the total annihilation of my species. I'd be stupid not to see what they are capable of and see their technological evolution for myself.

[Nightwriter]

I don't know what's wrong with people. It's all perfectly clear.

*Shepard keeps Collector base. Crew looks at Shepard doubtfully. Camera pans to the Illusive Man, smoking in the dark, smiling at holographic base schematics*

"MWAHAHAHAHAHA!!!"

I wonder what will happen...

Modifié par Nightwriter, 25 février 2010 - 01:00 .

[lumen11]

Yeah, it's a silly notion that a tool can't be evil. Tools are designed for a specific purpose and believing you can simply use it for your own purposes is an illusion. There is always a backlash, harmful or not.

Also, shades of grey don't mean brilliance. Often shades of grey muddle issues beyond the potential for meaningful implications.

Personally I think keeping the reaper factory is about as evil as it gets, not to mention stupid after all the hints the game keeps spitting out about reaper tech being dangerous. However, I don't believe the game necessarily wants to label it as an evil choice, even if all your companions disagree. It's clearly renegade because it's a high risk choice, the epitome of the 'ends justify the means', but not evil.

And wouldn't it be really interesting if this choice, which everybody thinks is the wrong choice, allows you to save the universe in ME3, essentially making it the 'right' choice? What?

Modifié par lumen11, 25 février 2010 - 01:02 .

[SurfaceBeneath]

Nightwriter wrote...

I don't know what's wrong with people. It's all perfectly clear.

*Shepard keeps Collector base. Crew looks at Shepard doubtfully. Camera pans to the Illusive Man, smoking in the dark, smiling at holographic base schematics*

"MWAHAHAHAHAHA!!!"

I wonder what will happen...

One hell of a finale!