184 réponses à ce sujet

[RevanMg]

Gill Kaiser wrote...

Yes. As Legion says, obtaining technology like that closes your mind to other possibilities. If we study the Collector Base, no doubt we'd obtain a slew of new technology and weapons, but it's all based upon Reaper technology which they obviously understand better than us. Say we developed an amazing new gun that shot the same focused energy beam as the Collector ship did... who's to say that the Reapers can't just tune their shields to completely ignore that beam, because they know its design intimately?

If we make the conscious decision to try to fight the Reapers on our own terms and develop our own technology to do so, there's a far greater chance of us thinking outside the box and coming up with a weapon that the Reapers never even considered.

I guess, today's physics should discard Einstein and do not close their minds with the theory of relativity?

And to transfer it on ME ground, Earth used the Protheans' ruins on Mars. The Geth use it too, they don't waste time to create new ways of FTL. It works good, so they push in other directions.

There is something universal about science, if Reapers made those discoveries sooner why we should waste time to get there? Instead we can use this time to develop something new thanks to those studies. No one suggest direct copying Rearpers' guns or shields,  but how can you find out how to break something if you don't know how it works first? Yes the smash option still exist but Reapers are hard to smash.

[Blastaz]

Well you have the only ship that can go through the relay. So just go to the alliance and give them the IFF then they rather than Cerberus have access to it, and can at least log the thing before they blow it up...

[Nightwriter]

I thought we'd all just discussed how we do NOT have the only ship that can go through the relay?

[Bigdoser]

Blastaz wrote...

Well you have the only ship that can go through the relay. So just go to the alliance and give them the IFF then they rather than Cerberus have access to it, and can at least log the thing before they blow it up...

just watch the shepard dies ending TIM ships have the IFF too.

[Bigdoser]

oops double post.

Modifié par Bigdoser, 25 février 2010 - 01:10 .

[Bigdoser]

triple post =_=

Modifié par Bigdoser, 25 février 2010 - 01:11 .

[Gill Kaiser]

IMO the Collector Base is the One Ring, and the Illusive Man is Saruman.

[nevarran]

Saren decided to "study" the Reaper and look where that took him. Also some Phroteans, Benezia, that scientist from the first book... That's Reaper's base, isn't it? How exactly keeping it is a good thing? When every day in that ship will make you more and more Reaper's puppet.



And even if you destroy the base, I think EDI and Jeff took some intel from it. Isn't that what he gave to Shepard at the end of the game?

[Madame November]

Blakes 7 wrote...

Here is the link to the article

http://www.shamusyou...dedtale/?p=7007

Having a blast reading this. Haven't thought about it much myself but I happen to agree with the four points below.


"According to the game designers, this is an unambiguously evil move.
Every single member of your crew – including the amoral Krogen, the
nihilistic Jack, the pragmatic pro-science Mordin, and the pro-Cerberus
Miranda – will approve of you destroying the base. This isn’t a
brilliant shades-of-gray decision like we see elsewhere in the game,
this is a black-and-white choice where the whole crew agrees that the
paragon course of action (option #2) is the right one.
If you choose the paragon option, Shepard decides to blow up the base
saying, “I won’t let fear compromise who I am.” And later, “We’ll beat
[the Reapers] without sacrificing the soul of our species.”

I find this line of reasoning to be lazy and infantile to the point
of being offensive.
1) Proof. By this point you have now spent two whole
games trying to convince the rest of the galaxy that the Reaper threat
is real. One of the major reasons the battle is so desperate is because
you’ve been working alone. Here is unambiguous proof of an advanced
enemy with hostile intentions.
2) Memorial. Keeping the facility is crucial for
understanding who died here, and how. If nothing else, looking for
bodies and dogtags to send home would have been worthwhile and offer
some families a sense of closure.
3) Technology. Yes, study the technology. Just
because the Slurpee machine of evilness is horrible doesn’t mean that we
shouldn’t understand how it works and why. Particularly when you’re in a
war and the enemy has you outmatched in both numbers and tech.
The idea that we shouldn’t understand a technology because it has been
used in evil ways is a line of reasoning that borders on primitive
superstition.
4) Intel. How does the enemy communicate? What is
their history? What are their plans? Up until now the Reapers have been a
great big question mark, and this is our first chance to fill in some
blanks by digging around in their computers and reading their mail.
Even if there was some unforeseen danger to keeping the
station, we could blow it up anytime we want if it turned out to be a
problem. This isn’t a decision that needs to be made on the
battlefield.

So yeah I did not do evil bioware - there is only the potential for evil, don't make me regret it in me3 pretty please

What about giving Cerberus the technology to assimilate people without the victim even being aware of it? Not to mention any of a number of other technologies that could be used to enslave humans and other races alike. Cerberus is out for the "advancement" of humanity and maybe the best way to accomplish that is to asssume direct control of the entire species...but then, I am an admitted alarmist.<3

Modifié par November Cousland, 25 février 2010 - 01:34 .

[Nightwriter]

Gill Kaiser wrote...

IMO the Collector Base is the One Ring, and the Illusive Man is Saruman.

I suppose they'll tell us next that the One Ring was a piece of valuable technology we know little about that any pragmatic person would have seen needs to be kept for study so we could use its power against the enemy.

[wolfstanus]

November Cousland wrote...

Blakes 7 wrote...

Here is the link to the article

http://www.shamusyou...dedtale/?p=7007

Having a blast reading this. Haven't thought about it much myself but I happen to agree with the four points below.


"According to the game designers, this is an unambiguously evil move.
Every single member of your crew – including the amoral Krogen, the
nihilistic Jack, the pragmatic pro-science Mordin, and the pro-Cerberus
Miranda – will approve of you destroying the base. This isn’t a
brilliant shades-of-gray decision like we see elsewhere in the game,
this is a black-and-white choice where the whole crew agrees that the
paragon course of action (option #2) is the right one.
If you choose the paragon option, Shepard decides to blow up the base
saying, “I won’t let fear compromise who I am.” And later, “We’ll beat
[the Reapers] without sacrificing the soul of our species.”

I find this line of reasoning to be lazy and infantile to the point
of being offensive.
1) Proof. By this point you have now spent two whole
games trying to convince the rest of the galaxy that the Reaper threat
is real. One of the major reasons the battle is so desperate is because
you’ve been working alone. Here is unambiguous proof of an advanced
enemy with hostile intentions.
2) Memorial. Keeping the facility is crucial for
understanding who died here, and how. If nothing else, looking for
bodies and dogtags to send home would have been worthwhile and offer
some families a sense of closure.
3) Technology. Yes, study the technology. Just
because the Slurpee machine of evilness is horrible doesn’t mean that we
shouldn’t understand how it works and why. Particularly when you’re in a
war and the enemy has you outmatched in both numbers and tech.
The idea that we shouldn’t understand a technology because it has been
used in evil ways is a line of reasoning that borders on primitive
superstition.
4) Intel. How does the enemy communicate? What is
their history? What are their plans? Up until now the Reapers have been a
great big question mark, and this is our first chance to fill in some
blanks by digging around in their computers and reading their mail.
Even if there was some unforeseen danger to keeping the
station, we could blow it up anytime we want if it turned out to be a
problem. This isn’t a decision that needs to be made on the
battlefield.

So yeah I did not do evil bioware - there is only the potential for evil, don't make me regret it in me3 pretty please

What about giving Cerberus the technology to assimilate people without the victim even beaing aware of it? Not to mention any of a number of other technologies that could be used to enslave humans and other races alike. Cerberus is out for the "advancement" of humanity and maybe the best way to accomplish that is to asssume direct control of the entire species...but then, I am an admitted alarmist.<3

Don't worry Cerberus is pure evil.

[RevanMg]

nevarran wrote...

Saren decided to "study" the Reaper and look where that took him. Also some Phroteans, Benezia, that scientist from the first book... That's Reaper's base, isn't it? How exactly keeping it is a good thing? When every day in that ship will make you more and more Reaper's puppet.

And even if you destroy the base, I think EDI and Jeff took some intel from it. Isn't that what he gave to Shepard at the end of the game?

Hmm then what if it is a Reaper's base? Indoctrination takes time. You send a group and monitor them closely, then exchange this group if they show signs of indoctrination in process. About Saren, Saren had to deal with real Reaper. Not with some of their tech. Living Reaper. How far he could go to study it? Soveregin would be stupid to let him take close inspection. The Collector Base contains the Reaper tech, but no actuall Reapers(we destroyed the terminator thing, it wasn't fully fleshed and in case it could use the indoctrination, you have all the resources to switch teams when needed). The Reapers had no reason to install indoctrination mechanism within the base itself, as it was proteced well enough thanks to Omega-4 and never meant to be manned by anyone else than their drones.

[Vanaer]

Together TIM and I will rule the galaxy as father and... no wait...

Together TIM and I will rule the galaxy as King and Queen, crushing all alien resistance under the banner of human advancement. It's good to be queen.

Modifié par Vanaer, 25 février 2010 - 01:30 .

[Silent Perforator]

Nightwriter wrote...

I thought we'd all just discussed how we do NOT have the only ship that can go through the relay?

Good point. However, nothing prevents Shepard from letting the Alliance and the Council copy the IFF codes and watch all three factions duke it out at the collector base...

[Madame November]

Vanaer wrote...

Together TIM and I will rule the galaxy as father and... no wait...

Together TIM and I will rule the galaxy as King and Queen, crushing all alien resistance under the banner of human advancement. It's good to be queen.

Personally, I think "Empress" has a nicer ring to it. And if something should befall TIM once your rule was secure...

[Admoniter]

A couple of weeks ago a thread like this popped up and someone made a fairly good post. Now since I can't find the actual post I will try to type it down to the best of my memory.

Once again someone else has stated this, I have only read it.

Anyways it went something like this. Basically the decision of ME1 boils down to willfully joining the galactic community, or forcefully uniting them under your banner (saving or killing the council repectively). Either way humanity ends up being part of the galactic community and the Citadel races are united against the Reapers.

Now we are given the choice in ME2 to either destroy the base or keep it for Cerberus. If memory serves EDI was in the bases computer systems, we can ssume that she managed to copy quite a bit of data from the base. Now from what we have seen the only function of the Collector base is a dock for the ship and a human blend-o-matic. So destroying it doesn't really destroy any data but just destroys any working example of Collector technology and keeps all the info in your hands to give to who you please. Wheras leaving the base allows Cerberus direct access to the tech as well as the data to use for their own purposes.

Given how careful the Reapers try to be I would say it is safe to say that. No critical information was gained from saving the base. Harbringer most likely didn't transfer any data to the keepers about how to make Reapers, but instead used the information it knew and instructed the Collectors of what to do, leaving behind a minimal paper-trail (Does this make sense? I'm sort of tired so it may be complete gibberish). Anyways using this sort of interpretation the only thing we get out of the base is the Reaper maker, whose sole purpose is to blend up humans into a nice paste to make a human-reaper (seems renegadey to me).

Anyways the person that made this post orginally went on to say that the main reason that keeping the base was a renegade decision was that because while you united the galaxy in ME1, keeping the base kinda drives a wedge between humans and everyone else. Keeping the base would result in Cerberus introducing this tech to the Alliance and I imagine would result in only humans having the tech in question. Now I imagine that would upset the balance of power in the Galaxy. Anyways this could potentially lead to the other Citadel species distrusting humans (even more than they already do in some cases) which is the last thing you want when the Reapers are on their way.

Like I said before this may not make much sense but I think a replicated the original version of the post as best I could... then again my version might just be all over the place. I'll read it again when I wake up and try to clean it up as necessary.

[Computron2000]

Nobody wondered if Harbinger would contact TIM though the base and make a deal?
Humans get to live (as a Reaper) and everyone else dies. I think TIM would take the deal if he was shown that the Reapers have a massive fleet (ME2 ending), amazing technology (ME1) and closing in on the galaxy (ME2 ending).
His thought process would likely be "So what if humanity becomes goo, at least we're still existing right?"

Modifié par Computron2000, 25 février 2010 - 01:36 .

[Lord Abrasion]

Gill Kaiser wrote...

It's not keeping it that's evil, it's handing it to the Illusive Man. Sadly he's the only guy likely to be able to make use out of it.

That is pretty much the reason I destroy the base. I just don't trust T.I.M. with that kind of technology. I simply feel safer having it all vaporized instead.

[Vanaer]

November Cousland wrote...

Vanaer wrote...

Together TIM and I will rule the galaxy as father and... no wait...

Together TIM and I will rule the galaxy as King and Queen, crushing all alien resistance under the banner of human advancement. It's good to be queen.

Personally, I think "Empress" has a nicer ring to it. And if something should befall TIM once your rule was secure...

This stands as noted, and between you and me, something will befall TIM.

[mhdemiroz]

Even if TIM wanted the base for his own personal goals, he'd still need to use the information there to help stop the reaper invasion first or he and Cerberus would be wiped out with the rest of the galaxy and TIM would be stupid not to make this information available to all races because humanity can't stop the reapers on its own.



It seems, at the end, you were able to recover information on reaper construction from the base before leaving anyway (assuming this is how it will play out for people who destroyed the base) so I see no reason to hand it over to a terrorist organization.

[Raphael diSanto]

Computron2000 wrote...

Nobody wondered if Harbinger would contact TIM though the base and make a deal?
Humans get to live (as a Reaper) and everyone else dies. I think TIM would take the deal if he was shown that the Reapers have a massive fleet (ME2 ending), amazing technology (ME1) and closing in on the galaxy (ME2 ending).
His thought process would likely be "So what if humanity becomes goo, at least we're still existing right?"

I'm fairly confident TIM would never settle for Humanity being goo. After all, stopping them from turning humanity into reaper-goo is what ME2 is all about...

Shepard: So, TIM, this is what they're doing, they're goo-ifying us and turning us into human reapers.
TIM: Oh, that's okay then, Shepard. Come on home and have a nice cup of tea. We didn't understand why they were stealing colonists before, but now we know what they're doing, we fully support that.

Modifié par Raphael diSanto, 25 février 2010 - 01:48 .

[DanaScu]

Strafbomber wrote...

IF THe normandy is the only ship with the reaper iff? doesnt the base just belong to Shepard? I've always wondered this he can give it to anyone he wants.

Normandy may be the only ship with the reaper iff *right now*. TIM has access to everything that happens on the Normandy. Amanda is filing reports constantly [don't know about Jacob]; read some of them. Turns out that you are helping Cerberus quite a bit, intentionally or not; there are references to Cerberus taking over Harkin's racket, and how they may have to start supporting the criminal cartels on the Citadel to counteract the anti-human movement.  If you talk to Mordin, you find out that he destroyed several bugs in the lab, and returned an expensive one to Miranda. I have no doubts the rest of the ship is equally bugged.

If you keep the base, I'm fairly sure that Cerberus will have teams in place immediately if not sooner. Teams that are loyal to TIM/Cerberus. Shepard wouldn't be able to destroy the base any time s/he wanted. Cerberus wouldn't allow it to happen.

[Vaenier]

I kept the base. Its will make a great base of operations, and has the coolest view in the galaxy [suck it TIM and your boring star ].

Even if you give it to TIM, you think he will betray you? and succeed? You took the base from the collectors in the first place, how are a few Cerberus agents supposed to stand a chance against a zombie cyborg that that even hell didnt want to keep.

[greghorvath]

It's a bit strange so many call this a choice between good and evil. Is it evil to want our race to survive by any means necessary? Thats what the reapers are doing. In reality people kill anything invading their living space and justify destroying ecosystems by the argument that humans are the more evolved species. We don't choose to call this evil, but it is exactly what the reapers do. I don't think it is reasonable to call someone, whose interests violate ours evil, just on that basis. How do you even define evil? Perhaps that it is against the moral judgement of the majority? Reapers are pretty much united in saying it is a good idea to keep the cycle of extinction in motion.



I think evil is pretty much a question of who wins in the end...

[vigna]

wolfstanus wrote...

Remember when Soverin {sp} said that when biological being copy their tech they develope on the path the reapers chose?

Correct, if you study the tech of the base you could be doing exactly what they (reapers) want you to. Once again sending the alliance/cerberus down the path the reapers have pre-ordained.