184 réponses à ce sujet

[Nhani]

RevanMg wrote...
I guess, today's physics should discard Einstein and do not close their minds with the theory of relativity? 

And to transfer it on ME ground, Earth used the Protheans' ruins on Mars. The Geth use it too, they don't waste time to create new ways of FTL. It works good, so they push in other directions.

There is something universal about science, if Reapers made those discoveries sooner why we should waste time to get there? Instead we can use this time to develop something new thanks to those studies. No one suggest direct copying Rearpers' guns or shields,  but how can you find out how to break something if you don't know how it works first? Yes the smash option still exist but Reapers are hard to smash.

Einstein isn't a good analogue to this case, because it isn't the sum result of several theories that dwelved and matured alongside society until time finally came when someone with enough brilliance appeared to tie it together (nevermind that Einstein's work has since been amended). This is more akin to if Einstein was a space alien who descended upon cavemen to teach them how to harness the awesome power of the atomic bomb.

There's an underlaying theme in the Mass Effect series so far - especially the second - how society and science need to advance in tandem and how them not doing so has catastrophic risks involved, the standing example being the Krogan Rebellions.

Taking the choice into pure narrative metaphors, what you come across a path to greater enlightenment; something that may allow you to destroy a greater coming foe but through whichs use you may also become the very thing you seek to stand against. The choice you have is either to embrace this font of power for your use against your foes in spite of the risk, or to decide that it's not worth risking your integrity and chance that you can prevail in spite of it.

It's not about the technology, but what it represents; sure, it might help you, but can you guarantee that people will resist the lure of becoming reapers themselves - can you prevent them? is it worth the risk?

Modifié par Nhani, 25 février 2010 - 01:57 .

[Computron2000]

Raphael diSanto wrote...
I'm fairly confident TIM would never settle for Humanity being goo. After all, stopping them from turning humanity into reaper-goo is what ME2 is all about...

Shepard: So, TIM, this is what they're doing, they're goo-ifying us and turning us into human reapers.
TIM: Oh, that's okay then, Shepard. Come on home and have a nice cup of tea. We didn't understand why they were stealing colonists before, but now we know what they're doing, we fully support that.

Oh i'm not saying he would not resist initially, just that he would agree to it if he was shown the situation is hopeless. That would probably not be too hard given the number of people that said "****!" when shown the reaper fleet at the end of the game

[Nhani]

Admoniter wrote...
Anyways the person that made this post orginally went on to say that the main reason that keeping the base was a renegade decision was that because while you united the galaxy in ME1, keeping the base kinda drives a wedge between humans and everyone else. Keeping the base would result in Cerberus introducing this tech to the Alliance and I imagine would result in only humans having the tech in question. Now I imagine that would upset the balance of power in the Galaxy. Anyways this could potentially lead to the other Citadel species distrusting humans (even more than they already do in some cases) which is the last thing you want when the Reapers are on their way.

This is actually a good point, and an interpretation I hadn't considered. Thank you for sharing.

[cronshaw8]

Nightwriter wrote...

Gill Kaiser wrote...

IMO the Collector Base is the One Ring, and the Illusive Man is Saruman.

I suppose they'll tell us next that the One Ring was a piece of valuable technology we know little about that any pragmatic person would have seen needs to be kept for study so we could use its power against the enemy.

Boromir!

[AntiChri5]

The reason i destroyed it was that TIMs reasons for keeping it were pretty much the same as what Saren was thinking when he first found Soverien.

[Vaenier]

AntiChri5 wrote...

The reason i destroyed it was that TIMs reasons for keeping it were pretty much the same as what Saren was thinking when he first found Soverien.

Technicaly wouldnt it be the opposite?... one to kill humans, another to save them...

[nevarran]

RevanMg wrote...
Hmm then what if it is a Reaper's base? Indoctrination takes time. You send a group and monitor them closely, then exchange this group if they show signs of indoctrination in process. About Saren, Saren had to deal with real Reaper. Not with some of their tech. Living Reaper. How far he could go to study it? Soveregin would be stupid to let him take close inspection. The Collector Base contains the Reaper tech, but no actuall Reapers(we destroyed the terminator thing, it wasn't fully fleshed and in case it could use the indoctrination, you have all the resources to switch teams when needed). The Reapers had no reason to install indoctrination mechanism within the base itself, as it was proteced well enough thanks to Omega-4 and never meant to be manned by anyone else than their drones.

If I remember correctly, there was a codex page in the second game that explains two types of indoctrination. One takes time, but can hold someone longer. The second will last few weeks, but it's developed faster. Correct me if I'm wrong.
So, I'll say, dealing with any type of indoctrination is a tricky bussines. You never know when it'll bite you in the ass.

And even if it's just a base, not actual Reaper. It's obvious that the Reapers were somehow controlling Harbinger. They didn't just brainwash him and send him to do the job.

Modifié par nevarran, 25 février 2010 - 02:07 .

[cronshaw8]

Blastaz wrote...

Well you have the only ship that can go through the relay. So just go to the alliance and give them the IFF then they rather than Cerberus have access to it, and can at least log the thing before they blow it up...

Shepard could do this but then it becomes a matter of timing. EDI needed time to integrate the reaper IFF with the normandy's systems. Cereberus has clearly already done this with some ships. Aliance ships don't have top of the line AIs integrated into their systems. It could takes days, weeks, even months to do.

[Gill Kaiser]

nevarran wrote...

And even if it's just a base, not actual Reaper. It's obvious that the Reapers were somehow controlling Harbinger. They didn't just braiwash him and send him to do the job.

Harbinger is a Reaper...
I'm going to assume you mean the Collector General.

[ShadyKat]

Keeping it to help all the alien races would not be evil. But face fact, the Illusive man is indeed an unscrupulous man, and has no intention of helping anyone but humans. Cerberus is evil, I can't see why people don't seem to get that. They have a very long, and very bad track record for stabbing people in the back to accomplish their goals.

[AntiChri5]

Vaenier wrote...

AntiChri5 wrote...

The reason i destroyed it was that TIMs reasons for keeping it were pretty much the same as what Saren was thinking when he first found Soverien.

Technicaly wouldnt it be the opposite?... one to kill humans, another to save them...

Own species. Saren thinking Turian. TIM thinking human. Still his own species.

[nevarran]

Gill Kaiser wrote...

nevarran wrote...

And even if it's just a base, not actual Reaper. It's obvious that the Reapers were somehow controlling Harbinger. They didn't just braiwash him and send him to do the job.

Harbinger is a Reaper...
I'm going to assume you mean the Collector General.

Yes, I mean the general. I tought he's Harbinger... hmm...

Modifié par nevarran, 25 février 2010 - 02:11 .

[Computron2000]

ShadyKat wrote...

Keeping it to help all the alien races would not be evil. But face fact, the Illusive man is indeed an unscrupulous man, and has no intention of helping anyone but himself. Cerberus is evil, I can't see why people don't seem to get that. They have a very long, and very bad track record for stabbing people in the back to accomplish their goals.

Corrected

Especially when you remember "Cerberus IS humanity!"

[Vanaer]

ShadyKat wrote...

Keeping it to help all the alien races would not be evil. But face fact, the Illusive man is indeed an unscrupulous man, and has no intention of helping anyone but humans. Cerberus is evil, I can't see why people don't seem to get that. They have a very long, and very bad track record for stabbing people in the back to accomplish their goals.

Nonsense, just because I run a dog shelter, doesn't mean I hate cats.

[lost lupus]

people whe are forgetting 1 thing this is ME

at the end of the day it was a renegade option as shown by the giant bug (rachni) in ME1
logical choice dose not factor same with saving the council save people who have done nothing but treat you like a child at the cost of many lives or say screw them and focus all your forces on taking down the most distructive and dangerous forces the galaxy has ever seen and is just moments away from letting in every single reaper to ground ZERO

at least this choice actualy has an argument on both side's
keep the base means you may lead to being a reaper trap directly of indirectly (eg dead reaper still sent people mad) worse TIM could betray you and go empire teaming up with Udina
but the potentail rewards may save your entire race and possibley the galaxy

or distroy it leaving no option for things to go bad but denying yourself any possible adavntage from it..........
 
if believing a giant cockroach word when every other rachni has at every turn responded with agression, including embarking on a genercidal war was the "correct" choice (gain an allie)

if sacrificing at least 6 ship's to save 1 badly damaged ship when a reaper is about to open up the gates to hell was the "right" thing to to do (the galaxy is rather pleased that humanity will sacrifce their live's for a single ship when the **** is hitting the fan but pissed about doing the right thing)

then there's not a snowballs chance in hell that keeping the base will have any positive outcome
that said i'll focus on soverign everytime, i will give the rachni an acid bath everytime but i will pause before making up my mind on wether to keep the base or not it's not an easy choice the potentail rewards make it a hard one

Modifié par lost lupus, 25 février 2010 - 02:25 .

[Madecologist]

Gill Kaiser wrote...

IMO the Collector Base is the One Ring, and the Illusive Man is Saruman.

That statement made me smile. Heh.

Alright for my input on the subject. People need to divorce the notion Renegade is Evil and Paragon is Good. It seems to come up a few times. Keeping the Base and allowing Cerberus access to it is Renegade. This does not mean it is a bad idea or it is evil. Just Renegade. It is confusing why that outcome is not renegade? Seizing control of a bioblender reaper baby making machine and handing it over to a pro-human extremist group is as renegade as one can get. Though it is fustrating that it is the only choice given to you, give it to TIM or blow it up. But meh.. that is how it unfolds.

Alright, having the crew agree it should be destroyed is the only 'hint' that the act is evil. Not the Renegade/Paragon scale. Only the opinion of the crew gives it that weight. But here is the catch, is this metaopinion given to us by Bioware or a trick to make us think it is. Hard to tell because all the characters saying it is a bad idea makes sense.

Samara, Jacob, Tali, Thane, and Garrus (even if he is vigilante now) all make sense because they are moralistic characters. Morinth is still Asari even if she is a "soul sucker from space" and Jack hates Cerberus; so deny TIM the base and blowing it up is cool to her (she likes explosions too). Jack's opinion on the base is less of a moral judgement and more of a chaotic screw TIM and blow stuff up. Legion explains his reason quite well post game, he believes a race should make its own future and the Collector Base is a short cut, similiar to what the Heretics were doing.

Why would a high morals character blow it up? It is a giant gooing facility that goos people to make baby Reapers. Also they were just inside of it, watching the gooing happen. It is easier from the comfort of your chair looking at a 2D screen going "but think of its uses!" to think it is a good idea to keep it. Ask someone that had to watch the gooing happen first hand and smell the air of such gooing to think so detached from it. It won't happen. 

Miranda and Mordin. Them too it makes sense. First of all Mordin is no suprise if you talked to him. He does not believe a race should gain technologies that it is not ready for and that the Collectors have no art and culture and their technology is tainted and corrupt. He also shows signs of guilt for the things he had to do in the past. So no suprise there either that he wants the base destroyed. He is not as "ends justify the means" doctor people think he is, if you do it is because you have not dialogued him enough.

Miranda is suprisingly self righteous. Just take her to Jack's Loyalty mission, or watch her careful on her own. Heck she always uses the "Rogue Operation" excuse when confronted by Cerberus' dirty past. She is pragmatic but not heartless. A people gooing facility might just be too much for her (just imagine her mind contemplates what if Oriana was one of the victims, that thought alone is enough to make her want to destroy the base, and this is stuff she will think about).

Only Grunt is left as the only one whose reason to blow up the base seems a little off. But is it. He is a Krogan, when did a Krogan ever show pragmatic approach to large scale warfare? Krogan are realtively simple in their strategies. This is an enemy base, blow it up. It's function (gooing people into baby Reapers) is an enemy's strategy, so destroy it. Krogans seem to be the king of blowing up the enemy instead of taking its assets. Plus everyone else under his Battlemaster seems to think it should explode. So why not? Explosions are great. You expect an Alpha-Krogan to get all pragmatic and determine the sound value of keeping the base?

[Silent Perforator]

Nhani wrote...

There's an underlaying theme in the Mass Effect series so far - especially the second - how society and science need to advance in tandem and how them not doing so has catastrophic risks involved, the standing example being the Krogan Rebellions.

Taking the choice into pure narrative metaphors, what you come across a path to greater enlightenment; something that may allow you to destroy a greater coming foe but through whichs use you may also become the very thing you seek to stand against. The choice you have is either to embrace this font of power for your use against your foes in spite of the risk, or to decide that it's not worth risking your integrity and chance that you can prevail in spite of it.

To give you a Real World™ example, isn't the scenario you described what happened to Japan? Society and science needed to advance at the same rate yet their civilization threatened by an advanced foe ( western civilizations )... and their decision to embrace our tech in order to survive?

So in your opinion was that a bad decision?

[Nhani]

ShadyKat wrote...
Keeping it to help all the alien races would not be evil.

Not evil, no, but I might consider it reckless. The Krogan was just one (albeit very resilient and fast-reproducing) species.. uplifting the entire known galaxy in one fell swoop? You'll either end up with galactic unity where all know serenity and peace, or you'll go World War 3 on a galactic scale.

[nevarran]

lost lupus wrote...

if sacrificing at least 6 ship's to save 1 badly damaged ship when a reaper is about to open up the gates to hell was the "right" thing to to do (the galaxy is rather pleased that humanity will sacrifce their live's for a single ship when the **** is hitting the fan but pissed about doing the right thing)

It's not about "right" or "wrong", mate. It's about Paragon or Renegade choise.
Let's say for example that you're runing toward an open door to lion's cage and you must close that door or a dozen lions will storm the zoo. But on your way to the door, you see a woman on the ground and a single lion is atacking her. Will you try to do both things, remove the lion from the woman and then rush to the door? Or you'll just ignore her, so you can go to the door sooner? There is no "right" or "wrong"...

[aaniadyen]

Renegade != evil



/thread

[ShadyKat]

Vanaer wrote...

ShadyKat wrote...

Keeping it to help all the alien races would not be evil. But face fact, the Illusive man is indeed an unscrupulous man, and has no intention of helping anyone but humans. Cerberus is evil, I can't see why people don't seem to get that. They have a very long, and very bad track record for stabbing people in the back to accomplish their goals.

Nonsense, just because I run a dog shelter, doesn't mean I hate cats.

If you are willing to let every cat die, just to save 1 dog then yes. Tim would kill off every alien race to save humans, make no mistake about that.

[Vagula]

The game handles the decision so bad. In the end Legion told me to keep the base because it has no inherent ethical value and it could save lives, but after the mission he berates me. Honestly I think you shouldn't even have the option of blowing up the place and the choise should be who to give it to. Destroying the only advantage we have againts the Reapers is a retarded idea.

No matter how dangerous the base might be it should be studied. The stakes are so high that the risk of indoctrination is small compared to the risk of total destruction of all life.

[Nhani]

Silent Perforator wrote...
To give you a Real World™ example, isn't the scenario you described what happened to Japan? Society and science needed to advance at the same rate yet their civilization threatened by an advanced foe ( western civilizations )... and their decision to embrace our tech in order to survive?

So in your opinion was that a bad decision?

The real world isn't exactly driven by narrative metaphors. That said, as I recall (though I admit the argument is on somewhat shaky ground as I can't remember specifics and thus don't really have any direct source to quote) there's been several examples throughout history of cultures that have essentially culturally died because they embraced a technologically superior minority; I believe atleast one major south american civilization suffered this fate, but, as said, I don't recall the specifics so it's an argument made on a somewhat weak ground.

It's not my intention to make a stand, mind you; if it were up to me personally, I'd probably keep the base because I'm too content in the easy path to blow it in favor of greater struggles, and I'd probably much rather have enlightenment now than actually have to work hard for it. My character on the other hand was perfectly happy with making a sacrifice for integrity, so there's a standing difference.

In the end, this is such a huge, pivotal decision that I don't think we have any proper real world analogs for it. It's not just technology, it's what that technology does. You're not just getting a new, fancier weapon or a bigger bomb, you're talking about building an entire new form of existence.

[nevarran]

Vagula wrote...

No matter how dangerous the base might be it should be studied. The stakes are so high that the risk of indoctrination is small compared to the risk of total destruction of all life.

Like I said, I think EDI and Jeff took some intel from the base. If you have the data, why risking for the hardware?

[ShadyKat]

Vagula wrote...

The game handles the decision so bad. In the end Legion told me to keep the base because it has no inherent ethical value and it could save lives, but after the mission he berates me. Honestly I think you shouldn't even have the option of blowing up the place and the choise should be who to give it to. Destroying the only advantage we have againts the Reapers is a retarded idea.

No matter how dangerous the base might be it should be studied. The stakes are so high that the risk of indoctrination is small compared to the risk of total destruction of all life.

Studied, yes.
By Cerberus, hell no.