184 réponses à ce sujet

[RighteousRage]

http://masseffect.wi.../Indoctrination

[Silent Perforator]

Nhani wrote...
It's not my intention to make a stand, mind you; if it were up to me personally, I'd probably keep the base because I'm too content in the easy path to blow it in favor of greater struggles, and I'd probably much rather have enlightenment now than actually have to work hard for it. My character on the other hand was perfectly happy with making a sacrifice for integrity, so there's a standing difference.

And I kept the base because I am willing to study their technology - not copying it, study - to better understand the choices the reapers made during THEIR evolution and devise new ways to counter it. You can learn a great deal about an alien species' way of thinking by examining the tools they make ( and how they use them ).

What I don't understand is how the rest of the crew suddenly thinks it's a bad idea.

[Computron2000]

Silent Perforator wrote...
To give you a Real World™ example, isn't the scenario you described what happened to Japan? Society and science needed to advance at the same rate yet their civilization threatened by an advanced foe ( western civilizations )... and their decision to embrace our tech in order to survive?

So in your opinion was that a bad decision?

You're referring to the Bakufu era i think. If i remember correctly there were a lot of rebellions and unrest during this time which shows the cost of the accelerated modernization.

If we translate to ME, it would mean widespread galactic war even if the Reapers were defeated. This is assuming the galactic races did not destory each other over who got what piece of technology first. For example, if a faction within Japan learnt that another faction with which you are not friendly with were going to get steam ships ahead of the rest, would it not make sense to attack before the technological edge came into play?

[ShadyKat]

Silent Perforator wrote...

Nhani wrote...
It's not my intention to make a stand, mind you; if it were up to me personally, I'd probably keep the base because I'm too content in the easy path to blow it in favor of greater struggles, and I'd probably much rather have enlightenment now than actually have to work hard for it. My character on the other hand was perfectly happy with making a sacrifice for integrity, so there's a standing difference.

And I kept the base because I am willing to study their technology - not copying it, study - to better understand the choices the reapers made during THEIR evolution and devise new ways to counter it. You can learn a great deal about an alien species' way of thinking by examining the tools they make ( and how they use them ).

What I don't understand is how the rest of the crew suddenly thinks it's a bad idea.

Because the Illusive Man has more then just studying it in mind. I would not be shocked if he tries to make his very own Reaper. I mean the new Normandy is made of parts from a Reaper, so why wouldn't he take the next step? Only one problem, you have to sacrifice millions of a race to create one. And i'm willing to bet he has no problem killing billions of Asari, Turians or Qurians to build a Reaper.

[Silent Perforator]

ShadyKat wrote...

Because the Illusive Man has more then just studying it in mind. I would not be shocked if he tries to make his very own Reaper. I mean the new Normandy is made of parts from a Reaper, so why wouldn't he take the next step? Only one problem, you have to sacrifice millions of a race to create one. And i'm willing to bet he has no problem killing billions of Asari, Turians or Qurians to build a Reaper.

Not the first time I have to stop an evil organization, I'm sure Shepard will handle him just fine.

[Jebel Krong]

i would have liked the option to keep the station and share the tech with the council (and cerberus), and to use anything useful myself - up against the wall, with time ticking and a vastly more advanced enemy on the way we need all the help we can get (and that's a galactic "we", not just humanity).

[nevarran]

ShadyKat wrote...

Because the Illusive Man has more then just studying it in mind. I would not be shocked if he tries to make his very own Reaper. I mean the new Normandy is made of parts from a Reaper, so why wouldn't he take the next step? Only one problem, you have to sacrifice millions of a race to create one. And i'm willing to bet he has no problem killing billions of Asari, Turians or Qurians to build a Reaper.

I agree. If  I remember correctly, from the first game and the books, he don't have problem killing humans either. For "the greater good", you know.

[ShadyKat]

Silent Perforator wrote...

ShadyKat wrote...

Because the Illusive Man has more then just studying it in mind. I would not be shocked if he tries to make his very own Reaper. I mean the new Normandy is made of parts from a Reaper, so why wouldn't he take the next step? Only one problem, you have to sacrifice millions of a race to create one. And i'm willing to bet he has no problem killing billions of Asari, Turians or Qurians to build a Reaper.

Not the first time I have to stop an evil organization, I'm sure Shepard will handle him just fine.

Is it worth the risk? And i'm still not sold on the fact that the Illusive Man doesn't have some kind of kill switch embedded in Shepard. If you become more trouble then your worth, he can pull the plug on you.

[AntiChri5]

Indoctrination technology is the Illusive Mans wet dream.

[Computron2000]

ShadyKat wrote...
Is it worth the risk? And i'm still not sold on the fact that the Illusive Man doesn't have some kind of kill switch embedded in Shepard. If you become more trouble then your worth, he can pull the plug on you.

Nah, it would be safer to just obliterate the SR2 using Thannix cannons that EDI probably sent back schematics for. What would Shepard do against mulitple cruisers armed with those weapons? Fire his Cain? Big help that would be.

Modifié par Computron2000, 25 février 2010 - 03:02 .

[lost lupus]

nevarran wrote...

lost lupus wrote...

if sacrificing at least 6 ship's to save 1 badly damaged ship when a reaper is about to open up the gates to hell was the "right" thing to to do (the galaxy is rather pleased that humanity will sacrifce their live's for a single ship when the **** is hitting the fan but pissed about doing the right thing)

It's not about "right" or "wrong", mate. It's about Paragon or Renegade choise.
Let's say for example that you're runing toward an open door to lion's cage and you must close that door or a dozen lions will storm the zoo. But on your way to the door, you see a woman on the ground and a single lion is atacking her. Will you try to do both things, remove the lion from the woman and then rush to the door? Or you'll just ignore her, so you can go to the door sooner? There is no "right" or "wrong"...

you can not compre the reaper threat to some lions it is the every scope of the problem that shapes the choice
the reapers will distroy everything! you have no way of stopping them if that portal open's game over

the risk is dividing your forces to when the battle may hinge on that single choice sure save them and everything turns out hunkidory but at the time we dont know that what makes saving them "wrong" is that as a stratrgy dividing your force's is erronus given the risk of failure and resilencile of a reaper the fact that saving the council had no ill outcome shows that paragon and renegade options are metaphors for right and wrong

whislt your choice may not be "evil" per say bioware makes sure to show that what did was incorrect by rewarding paragon choices and punishing renegade ones even if they appear to be the best choice at the time bioware rewards the idealistic choice rather then delivering a dose of the reality **** slap for taking the bunnies and sunshine route at every turn it encourges everybody that the sunday morning cartoon approch to the situation is the most approperate to go........... and driving home the hollywood ideal good guys must only act in inherantly good a way or else only negative outcomes can occur
 
a paragon choice can never have negative outcome and must always have a long term positive outcome
where as a renegade choice at best has a short term gain but must be offset by producing a long term negative outcome remind the player that unless they take a moralistic approch then things just become more dire to the point where you must make the choice that fly's in the face of conventail wisdom in order to get the "good" result

indeed bioware seem to offer you shades of grey only to tell you your choice was ethier black or white after you make it. 

[Jebel Krong]

at the end of the day, the choice probably won't be that important - along the lines of me1's final choice of "let the council live or die" because you'll obviously have to be able to win without it.

[Nhani]

Silent Perforator wrote...

Nhani wrote...
It's not my intention to make a stand, mind you; if it were up to me personally, I'd probably keep the base because I'm too content in the easy path to blow it in favor of greater struggles, and I'd probably much rather have enlightenment now than actually have to work hard for it. My character on the other hand was perfectly happy with making a sacrifice for integrity, so there's a standing difference.

And I kept the base because I am willing to study their technology - not copying it, study - to better understand the choices the reapers made during THEIR evolution and devise new ways to counter it. You can learn a great deal about an alien species' way of thinking by examining the tools they make ( and how they use them ).

What I don't understand is how the rest of the crew suddenly thinks it's a bad idea.

I can see why several of them would; Mordin and Legion in particular. I admit it seems a bit of a stretch how everyone suddenly seems to have gotten the "Krogan uplifting was BAD" speech all of a sudden. I can see why it's like that from a narrative standpoint - from the setup (though I doubt BioWare would actually take that route) I'd fully expect that keeping the base would help significantly against the Reapers but then eventually necessitate a genophage-esque counter to re-establish balance again. That's what the narrative themes seem to suggest, anyhow.

The only reasoning that seem to be suggested would be that your entire team found the fate of the Protheans abominable, the Reaper larva even more so and none of them really have the stomach to readily accept handing the ability to make more of either of them over to anyone - which's a reason I can accept and swing with really, it's just never said out loud so it's all basically guesswork.

[AntiChri5]

lost lupus wrote...

nevarran wrote...

lost lupus wrote...

if sacrificing at least 6 ship's to save 1 badly damaged ship when a reaper is about to open up the gates to hell was the "right" thing to to do (the galaxy is rather pleased that humanity will sacrifce their live's for a single ship when the **** is hitting the fan but pissed about doing the right thing)

It's not about "right" or "wrong", mate. It's about Paragon or Renegade choise.
Let's say for example that you're runing toward an open door to lion's cage and you must close that door or a dozen lions will storm the zoo. But on your way to the door, you see a woman on the ground and a single lion is atacking her. Will you try to do both things, remove the lion from the woman and then rush to the door? Or you'll just ignore her, so you can go to the door sooner? There is no "right" or "wrong"...

you can not compre the reaper threat to some lions it is the every scope of the problem that shapes the choice
the reapers will distroy everything! you have no way of stopping them if that portal open's game over

the risk is dividing your forces to when the battle may hinge on that single choice sure save them and everything turns out hunkidory but at the time we dont know that what makes saving them "wrong" is that as a stratrgy dividing your force's is erronus given the risk of failure and resilencile of a reaper the fact that saving the council had no ill outcome shows that paragon and renegade options are metaphors for right and wrong

whislt your choice may not be "evil" per say bioware makes sure to show that what did was incorrect by rewarding paragon choices and punishing renegade ones even if they appear to be the best choice at the time bioware rewards the idealistic choice rather then delivering a dose of the reality **** slap for taking the bunnies and sunshine route at every turn it encourges everybody that the sunday morning cartoon approch to the situation is the most approperate to go........... and driving home the hollywood ideal good guys must only act in inherantly good a way or else only negative outcomes can occur
 
a paragon choice can never have negative outcome and must always have a long term positive outcome
where as a renegade choice at best has a short term gain but must be offset by producing a long term negative outcome remind the player that unless they take a moralistic approch then things just become more dire to the point where you must make the choice that fly's in the face of conventail wisdom in order to get the "good" result

indeed bioware seem to offer you shades of grey only to tell you your choice was ethier black or white after you make it. 

Go buy Dragon Age.

[lost lupus]

i wouldnt say that the loss of unity within the combined forces of the galaxy's top dog's doesnt matter long term when considering the reaper threat because that makes it even worse

indeed by that logic even with shepard dead with zero team members alive we will still defeat the reapers............. thats just cheap if i do say my self

of course if they did manage a renegade outcome to be successful would be the epitime of a one fingered solute to the galaxy
but again offset be internaly tormoil with in galaxy's political system

Modifié par lost lupus, 25 février 2010 - 03:18 .

[Vaenier]

Jebel Krong wrote...

at the end of the day, the choice probably won't be that important - along the lines of me1's final choice of "let the council live or die" because you'll obviously have to be able to win without it.

You will defeat the reapers either way. It is the cost of victory that should be different

[Probable Bioware plan] If you keep the base, Humanity becomes even stronger, and leads the fight against the Reapers. Deaths are limited, but Humanity controls the galaxy afterwards.

If you destroy the base, all races join the fight together, and share losses equaly. death toll is 10 times greater, but everybody is happy about it.

[My ideal plan] Keeping the base means the galaxy is outfitted with the advanced tech and sufferes reduced losses from the Reapers, but you must fight Cerberus because they start abusing the technology, and harrassing other species.

Destroying the base makes all races join together and fight as equals, but alot of people die because you are fighting tanks with peashooters. Cerberus is dead though, and everybody loves humans.


You should have the option of blowing it up again if Cerberus dont use it how you wanted to use it when you kept it. Just like you should be able to kill the council if you saved them. You should always be able to fix your mistakes

Modifié par Vaenier, 25 février 2010 - 03:22 .

[Silent Perforator]

Nhani wrote...

I can see why several of them would; Mordin and Legion in particular. I admit it seems a bit of a stretch how everyone suddenly seems to have gotten the "Krogan uplifting was BAD" speech all of a sudden. I can see why it's like that from a narrative standpoint - from the setup (though I doubt BioWare would actually take that route) I'd fully expect that keeping the base would help significantly against the Reapers but then eventually necessitate a genophage-esque counter to re-establish balance again. That's what the narrative themes seem to suggest, anyhow.

The only reasoning that seem to be suggested would be that your entire team found the fate of the Protheans abominable, the Reaper larva even more so and none of them really have the stomach to readily accept handing the ability to make more of either of them over to anyone - which's a reason I can accept and swing with really, it's just never said out loud so it's all basically guesswork.

"Sometimes the only choices left are bad ones."

When I faced the choice the first time I thought both outcomes are bad, just in different ways, so I'd go with the lesser evil and keep the tech. Might give me insight into how the Reapers evolved and came to the conclusion that organic life - or biomechanical life, if you're so inclined - must be culled periodically.

[StowyMcStowstow]

I would have loved to keep the Collector base. But giving it to the Illusive Man? No thanks.

[Jebel Krong]

Vaenier wrote...

Jebel Krong wrote...

at the end of the day, the choice probably won't be that important - along the lines of me1's final choice of "let the council live or die" because you'll obviously have to be able to win without it.

You will defeat the reapers either way. It is the cost of victory that should be different

[Probable Bioware plan] If you keep the base, Humanity becomes even stronger, and leads the fight against the Reapers. Deaths are limited, but Humanity controls the galaxy afterwards.

If you destroy the base, all races join the fight together, and share losses equaly. death toll is 10 times greater, but everybody is happy about it.

[My ideal plan] Keeping the base means the galaxy is outfitted with the advanced tech and sufferes reduced losses from the Reapers, but you must fight Cerberus because they start abusing the technology, and harrassing other species.

Destroying the base makes all races join together and fight as equals, but alot of people die because you are fighting tanks with peashooters. Cerberus is dead though, and everybody loves humans.


You should have the option of blowing it up again if Cerberus dont use it how you wanted to use it when you kept it. Just like you should be able to kill the council if you saved them. You should always be able to fix your mistakes

yeah, well that's why i wanted the choice AS A SPECTRE to keep the base for myself/council/cerberus so we can all get the most out of it...

[Mr.BlazenGlazen]

Well i didn't think handing the Giant Slurpee machine to the Illusive man, given cerberus's background for their conquest for human dominance, was such a good idea. I looked at some of the videos of what happened if you did keep the collecter base, and the illusive man had this evil little grin on his face and i knew that i most likely made the right choice.

The last thing i want after stopping the reapers is another threat to the galaxy.

Modifié par Mr.BlazenGlazen, 25 février 2010 - 03:34 .

[Nhani]

Silent Perforator wrote...

Nhani wrote...

I can see why several of them would; Mordin and Legion in particular. I admit it seems a bit of a stretch how everyone suddenly seems to have gotten the "Krogan uplifting was BAD" speech all of a sudden. I can see why it's like that from a narrative standpoint - from the setup (though I doubt BioWare would actually take that route) I'd fully expect that keeping the base would help significantly against the Reapers but then eventually necessitate a genophage-esque counter to re-establish balance again. That's what the narrative themes seem to suggest, anyhow.

The only reasoning that seem to be suggested would be that your entire team found the fate of the Protheans abominable, the Reaper larva even more so and none of them really have the stomach to readily accept handing the ability to make more of either of them over to anyone - which's a reason I can accept and swing with really, it's just never said out loud so it's all basically guesswork.

"Sometimes the only choices left are bad ones."

When I faced the choice the first time I thought both outcomes are bad, just in different ways, so I'd go with the lesser evil and keep the tech. Might give me insight into how the Reapers evolved and came to the conclusion that organic life - or biomechanical life, if you're so inclined - must be culled periodically.

Personally I went with the lesser evil and destroyed the base, so it's very much a matter of perspective and what values you take on in context.

I think in retrospect though, the problem is really that BioWare isn't always clear why we're making a decision and when we make a decision for different reasons than they intended, we sometimes end up with the game giving us a reasoning we don't recognize and we're left holding the bag and wondering what just happened.

I had the same problem with Legion's loyalty quest where my initial reaction was the Renegade option for multiple reasons, but the reasoning offered wasn't the reasoning I had intended, so I found myself trying to weigh two entirely different reasons and figure which one was the lesser evil.

[Jebel Krong]

Mr.BlazenGlazen wrote...

Well i didn't think handing the Giant Slurpee machine to the Illusive man, given cerberus's background for their conquest for human dominance, was such a good idea. I looked at some of the videos of what happened if you did keep the collecter base, and the illusive man had this evil little grin on his face and i knew that i most likely made the right choice.

The last thing i want after stopping the reapers is another threat to the galaxy.

he doesn't have an "evil grin" - he is simply sitting there with a glass of single malt studying a hologram of it.

personally i did think they tried too hard to suddenly make cerberus appear "less evil" during the course of the game, perhaps they will switch-back again in #3, but perhaps not.

Modifié par Jebel Krong, 25 février 2010 - 03:44 .

[Sammy0721]

Here is a reality check. The council and alliance have done little but get into Shepard's way. They deny the Reaper threat, let Terminus colonies go missing, allow thousands of humans die in order to save the Ascension, and provide zero aid against the Collectors. TIM only spent 4 billion creds to bring you life and provided intel to take out the Collectors. Here is the question (to be or not to be)... actually what is the greater evil (that good men fail to act) or men who commit drastic measures to justify the ends. It is naive that no one (Mordin, Rana, Ash shooting Wrex, Saren, Shiala, Tali's dad,TIM) performs some questionable acts because they feel it necessary at some level. Ironically, Bioware likes the hero who backstabs the quasi-villans that save their lives (Flemeth and TIM).

[Mr.BlazenGlazen]

Jebel Krong wrote...

Mr.BlazenGlazen wrote...

Well i didn't think handing the Giant Slurpee machine to the Illusive man, given cerberus's background for their conquest for human dominance, was such a good idea. I looked at some of the videos of what happened if you did keep the collecter base, and the illusive man had this evil little grin on his face and i knew that i most likely made the right choice.

The last thing i want after stopping the reapers is another threat to the galaxy.

he doesn't have an "evil grin" - he is simply sitting there with a glass of single malt studying a hologram of it.

personally i did think they tried too hard to suddenly make cerberus appear "less evil" during the course of the game, perhaps they will switch-back again in #3, but perhaps not.

No..i know a evil grin when i see one, look at it again.

[Beerfish]

Two points:



1) For many of my Shepards handing the base over to the alliance and the council is not better than handing it to Cerberus. The council has proven beyond a doubt that they are just as underhanded and manipulative as Cerberus in many ways. I would have very little confidence that the thing would be handled above board and openly. A week after you gave it to the council they would say, 'What base?'



2) Not being able to explore the base from top to bottom in an exhaustive manner and still having things to do and people to see I would have no confidence that something dormant and harmful still might be associated with the base.



The old war standard is that if you are not 100% sure you can keep items from your enemy you destroy them so they can't be used against you again.