465 réponses à ce sujet

[mundus66]

Gameplay wise this is a lot better than ME1. Story wise maybe not. But that does not have to do with that they went "mainstream" but rather the fact that its the middle part, which is always the hardest to do.

I do also think they want as much to carry over to ME3 as possible, this can have reduced the quality of some parts and it has imo. Liara and Kaiden/Ashley wouldn't have been so uninteresting, if it wasn't for the fact that they want them to have a part in ME3.

And going to the citadel is completely optional which is why the council, Anderson and Udina was handled the way they where.

So saying that ME2 "failed cause it went mainstream" is just a very baised opinion imo. And i think most people can agree that overall ME2 is better than ME1, even though there are certainly elements that where better in ME1, not least of which the story. But as i stated earlier, that has nothing to do with going "mainstream".

[StreetlightEagle]

SuperZombieChow wrote...

Krogan Face wrote...

 ...but sadly all of that was established in ME1.

Hope you don't mind if I just snip the end. I agree with the sentiment of your post completely.

This is the core of the issue. Nothing happened in ME2 that changes the landscape or conflict from ME1. The reapers were coming from dark space, and now they still are. Rather then feeling like a critical chaper in a limited series, ME2's plot felt like an episode in a tv series: New baddie shows up, hero trounces new baddie, cut to scene of real baddie shaking fist and saying "I'll get you next time!" There were a few revalations about the Reapers (not AI constructs) and the potential of keeping the base, neither of which couldn't have been part of a bit of easy downloadable content for ME1 no bigger then "bring down the sky".

Just to make sure I'm clear: I feel like I got my money's worth. As a game it's great, love the combat system changes and had fun learning about characters and shooting mercs. If it were a novel though I'd be sorely dissapointed in the lack of narrative progression.

You are spot on there! That was the problem, not the fact that it didn't fit with the larger story but rather that it offered little to nothing in terms of adding to the overall story. I think this is because Bioware felt they would struggle making ME3 if they had to take loads of multiple choices from ME1 and ME2 made by each individual save. This way, when a save is imported into Mass Effect 3, no galaxy changing choices (apart from possibly one) happened in ME2 so they wouldn't need to be considered. ME3 will just be continuation of ME1 with a few extra faces.

[Daeion]

321scooter wrote...

Daeion wrote...

321scooter wrote...

I don't understand a lot of the complaints about the story being relevant to the "main plot" or any of the other garbage. If the reapers are involved, their goal is to destroy all life (the main plot), so how is that not important within the confines of the ME universe?

Because it doesn't really advance the plot.  At the End of ME the reapers were coming and no one believed you, at the end of ME2 the reapers are still coming and no one believes you.  ME2 feels more like a side mission or xpac to the first game then the actual 2nd half of a trilogy.

How can the reapers be coming if we stopped them from opening up the relay?  ME2 just showed a contingency plan for opening up the relay.  It's obvious that once they finished building a reaper they would try the same thing again.  Even at the end of ME2, they still can't just fly into the galaxy.  You can clearly see how far away they are.

I agree that ME2 seems more like a filler story, but it still doesn't change the fact that within the ME universe, stopping the collectors is what had to be done, therefore it is necessary.

Dark space is simply the area between galaxies, not another dimension, so they are still in our universe.  Now they could just use FTL to get here, which who know's how advanced their FTL engins are or, it stands to reason that since the citadel is actually a relay, there must be a relay in dark space so why can't they simply realign that relay with another that's still within our galaxy?

[mundus66]

StreetlightEagle wrote...

SuperZombieChow wrote...

Krogan Face wrote...

 ...but sadly all of that was established in ME1.

Hope you don't mind if I just snip the end. I agree with the sentiment of your post completely.

This is the core of the issue. Nothing happened in ME2 that changes the landscape or conflict from ME1. The reapers were coming from dark space, and now they still are. Rather then feeling like a critical chaper in a limited series, ME2's plot felt like an episode in a tv series: New baddie shows up, hero trounces new baddie, cut to scene of real baddie shaking fist and saying "I'll get you next time!" There were a few revalations about the Reapers (not AI constructs) and the potential of keeping the base, neither of which couldn't have been part of a bit of easy downloadable content for ME1 no bigger then "bring down the sky".

Just to make sure I'm clear: I feel like I got my money's worth. As a game it's great, love the combat system changes and had fun learning about characters and shooting mercs. If it were a novel though I'd be sorely dissapointed in the lack of narrative progression.

You are spot on there! That was the problem, not the fact that it didn't fit with the larger story but rather that it offered little to nothing in terms of adding to the overall story. I think this is because Bioware felt they would struggle making ME3 if they had to take loads of multiple choices from ME1 and ME2 made by each individual save. This way, when a save is imported into Mass Effect 3, no galaxy changing choices (apart from possibly one) happened in ME2 so they wouldn't need to be considered. ME3 will just be continuation of ME1 with a few extra faces.

Pretty sure the outcome of every loyalty mission will carry over to ME3, so it will definitely be more stuff carried over from this game than it was from ME1.

Some examples, destroy or reprogram the heretics, destroy or keep the geneophage cure, kill Samara or Morinth, Tali is/is not exiled and so on. Plus the fact that everybody can die will change some things up too.

[flatlander five]

Krogan Face wrote...



U can be a fan of something and complain about it because u want to see the franchise grow and become even better. All u idiots who say the games perfect and i heart BW without question are part of the problem. U have to push and push some more because u want it to be that much better.

There were plenty of problems with ME2, but ya it is a great game and i appretiate BW's effort. If only all game makers tried as hard as they do, but u still have to question and even complain.

You realize the irony involved in calling someone an *idiot* while repeatedly misspelling the word *you,* right?



I'm not saying you can't have an opinion, or even voice it; what I am saying is that perspective is important.



People pissed and moaned about the MAKO in ME1; Bioware listened and gave us planet scanning. What happened? People started pissing and moaning about planet scanning.



So really it comes down to this: Are you people complaining because ME2 has changes that broke the game, or are you just complaining because this is the internet, and its expected of you?

[StreetlightEagle]

mundus66 wrote...

StreetlightEagle wrote...

SuperZombieChow wrote...

Krogan Face wrote...

 ...but sadly all of that was established in ME1.

Hope you don't mind if I just snip the end. I agree with the sentiment of your post completely.

This is the core of the issue. Nothing happened in ME2 that changes the landscape or conflict from ME1. The reapers were coming from dark space, and now they still are. Rather then feeling like a critical chaper in a limited series, ME2's plot felt like an episode in a tv series: New baddie shows up, hero trounces new baddie, cut to scene of real baddie shaking fist and saying "I'll get you next time!" There were a few revalations about the Reapers (not AI constructs) and the potential of keeping the base, neither of which couldn't have been part of a bit of easy downloadable content for ME1 no bigger then "bring down the sky".

Just to make sure I'm clear: I feel like I got my money's worth. As a game it's great, love the combat system changes and had fun learning about characters and shooting mercs. If it were a novel though I'd be sorely dissapointed in the lack of narrative progression.

You are spot on there! That was the problem, not the fact that it didn't fit with the larger story but rather that it offered little to nothing in terms of adding to the overall story. I think this is because Bioware felt they would struggle making ME3 if they had to take loads of multiple choices from ME1 and ME2 made by each individual save. This way, when a save is imported into Mass Effect 3, no galaxy changing choices (apart from possibly one) happened in ME2 so they wouldn't need to be considered. ME3 will just be continuation of ME1 with a few extra faces.

Pretty sure the outcome of every loyalty mission will carry over to ME3, so it will definitely be more stuff carried over from this game than it was from ME1.

Some examples, destroy or reprogram the heretics, destroy or keep the geneophage cure, kill Samara or Morinth, Tali is/is not exiled and so on. Plus the fact that everybody can die will change some things up too.

I wouldn't get your hopes up. To me, the way Bioware handled save imports from ME1 to ME2 highlights that it is not too easy to do. It just points me to believe that the entire ME2 crew will be insignificant in ME3 and the only people who will matter are Ash/ Kaiden and Liara... Liara especially as she is the only one who simply can't die.

[Sabre120]

The story is of such an epic scale that it needs to be diverted for a period of time

[Krogan Face]

Daeion wrote...

321scooter wrote...

Daeion wrote...

321scooter wrote...

I don't understand a lot of the complaints about the story being relevant to the "main plot" or any of the other garbage. If the reapers are involved, their goal is to destroy all life (the main plot), so how is that not important within the confines of the ME universe?

Because it doesn't really advance the plot.  At the End of ME the reapers were coming and no one believed you, at the end of ME2 the reapers are still coming and no one believes you.  ME2 feels more like a side mission or xpac to the first game then the actual 2nd half of a trilogy.

How can the reapers be coming if we stopped them from opening up the relay?  ME2 just showed a contingency plan for opening up the relay.  It's obvious that once they finished building a reaper they would try the same thing again.  Even at the end of ME2, they still can't just fly into the galaxy.  You can clearly see how far away they are.

I agree that ME2 seems more like a filler story, but it still doesn't change the fact that within the ME universe, stopping the collectors is what had to be done, therefore it is necessary.

Dark space is simply the area between galaxies, not another dimension, so they are still in our universe.  Now they could just use FTL to get here, which who know's how advanced their FTL engins are or, it stands to reason that since the citadel is actually a relay, there must be a relay in dark space so why can't they simply realign that relay with another that's still within our galaxy?

No way they the reapers could use FTL drive to get to the Milkyway from dark space or intergalatic space .  The reapers have to reap the galaxy civilizations to build up their energy stores to keep them selves alive unti the next wave of advanced life develops, now this could be 100,000 yrs or 1,000,000 it just depends on alot of factors. I can only hope to try to under stand them  ,but it seems like their goal is to live for eternity.  Thats why they go dormant after they reap a galaxy for resources/ energy, because staying active requires alot of energy and civilizations, wich they have just harvested.  Its like a bear gorgeing in the spring and summer, and hopeing they have eaten enough to survie the winter. Only a few reapers stay active and its reasonable to assume they have have to hide and harvest without being noticed, this is probably easy for them, until advanced civilizations start poping up, and they have to keep a lower profile. And since its time for Soverign and Vanguard to wakey wakey the reepers armies its reasonable to assume that the reapers are starting to run low on energy, and winter is over, and they cant travel 50,000 or 100,000 light yrs from intergalatic space to galatic space on low power.  Unless it was a very quick cycle of advanced civilization development, in wich the reapers could come in early before the galaxy civilizations become to advanced.  im just arguing with my self at this point i'll go eat dinner or something now. 

All in all the Reapers are kinda comeing of like a buch of screw ups, im mean theve had hundreds of thousands of yrs to plan this, or is it just me?

[AK118]

i felt like overall ME2 felt like a side mission, story wise. we really didn't progress with the main story, and it really ruined the plot experience for me. i mean, we introduced a few new species, and went to a few new battles, but really, we didn't learn anything more about the main plot. sure, we met the collectors, but that was all new that we never knew before.



sacrificing plot was a BIG mistake. it was the gameplay that was going to attract the most people, for quick money, but c'mon, i miss the old ME1 plot. it was new, exciting, and felt like an adventure.



ME2 brought absolutely none of the emotions that ME1 had.



i remember i almost felt pride as the alliance came in to save the citadel. in ME2, there is no moment like that at all, nothing so emotionally engaging.



the end had some nice music, but that was about it.

[Krogan Face]

flatlander five wrote...

Krogan Face wrote...

U can be a fan of something and complain about it because u want to see the franchise grow and become even better. All u idiots who say the games perfect and i heart BW without question are part of the problem. U have to push and push some more because u want it to be that much better.
There were plenty of problems with ME2, but ya it is a great game and i appretiate BW's effort. If only all game makers tried as hard as they do, but u still have to question and even complain.

You realize the irony involved in calling someone an *idiot* while repeatedly misspelling the word *you,* right?

I'm not saying you can't have an opinion, or even voice it; what I am saying is that perspective is important.

People pissed and moaned about the MAKO in ME1; Bioware listened and gave us planet scanning. What happened? People started pissing and moaning about planet scanning.

So really it comes down to this: Are you people complaining because ME2 has changes that broke the game, or are you just complaining because this is the internet, and its expected of you?

 U realize how weak of a point calling someone out on there spelling is in a forum right?

And how your quoteing my post that has an answer to your stupid question right?

Now thats irony *u*   *idiot*

Modifié par Krogan Face, 26 février 2010 - 12:34 .

[StreetlightEagle]

AK118 wrote...

i felt like overall ME2 felt like a side mission, story wise. we really didn't progress with the main story, and it really ruined the plot experience for me. i mean, we introduced a few new species, and went to a few new battles, but really, we didn't learn anything more about the main plot. sure, we met the collectors, but that was all new that we never knew before.

sacrificing plot was a BIG mistake. it was the gameplay that was going to attract the most people, for quick money, but c'mon, i miss the old ME1 plot. it was new, exciting, and felt like an adventure.

ME2 brought absolutely none of the emotions that ME1 had.

i remember i almost felt pride as the alliance came in to save the citadel. in ME2, there is no moment like that at all, nothing so emotionally engaging.

the end had some nice music, but that was about it.

Totally agree. After how much Dr Ray harped on about "emotional engagement" I was sorely disappointed. I was much more emotionally connected to Dragon Age's plot and I'm not usually a fan of fantasy games!

[SuperZombieChow]

mundus66 wrote...
 Pretty sure the outcome of every loyalty mission will carry over to ME3, so it will definitely be more stuff carried over from this game than it was from ME1.

Some examples, destroy or reprogram the heretics, destroy or keep the geneophage cure, kill Samara or Morinth, Tali is/is not exiled and so on. Plus the fact that everybody can die will change some things up too.

We're talking mostly main storyline here.  The main storyline did not change at all. The whole thing could have been skipped. No narrative development.

Now CHARACTER development? We had that in spades, and it was fabulous. It was so good, in fact, that it made the narrative development look all the worse. The Collector threat, or whatever the reapers decided to use, should have worked. They needed to manage to actually open a path into the galaxy, and start moving along it. One that conveniently takes some time to get here so that Shepard can collect his army, while potentially giving him some proof of the reapers existence (good chance to make keeping the base seem less like a blatantly bad decision). Having the collectors show up, act all scary, then fail leaving the Reapers still stuck out in dark space was a mistake. The best ending to a middle segment of a trilogy is one where the villian gains the upper hand, so that the hero enters the finale with an uphill battle ahead of him.

[StreetlightEagle]

SuperZombieChow wrote...

mundus66 wrote...
 Pretty sure the outcome of every loyalty mission will carry over to ME3, so it will definitely be more stuff carried over from this game than it was from ME1.

Some examples, destroy or reprogram the heretics, destroy or keep the geneophage cure, kill Samara or Morinth, Tali is/is not exiled and so on. Plus the fact that everybody can die will change some things up too.

We're talking mostly main storyline here.  The main storyline did not change at all. The whole thing could have been skipped. No narrative development.

Now CHARACTER development? We had that in spades, and it was fabulous. It was so good, in fact, that it made the narrative development look all the worse. The Collector threat, or whatever the reapers decided to use, should have worked. They needed to manage to actually open a path into the galaxy, and start moving along it. One that conveniently takes some time to get here so that Shepard can collect his army, while potentially giving him some proof of the reapers existence (good chance to make keeping the base seem less like a blatantly bad decision). Having the collectors show up, act all scary, then fail leaving the Reapers still stuck out in dark space was a mistake. The best ending to a middle segment of a trilogy is one where the villian gains the upper hand, so that the hero enters the finale with an uphill battle ahead of him.

Yeah, I hate having to keep bringing up Star Wars, but Luke is left a broken man at the end of Empire which makes his return in Jedi all the more awesome.

[Daeion]

flatlander five wrote...

People pissed and moaned about the MAKO in ME1; Bioware listened and gave us planet scanning. What happened? People started pissing and moaning about planet scanning.

I think the problem is most people expected them to fix the system, not simply remove it.  We'll have to see how well the Hammerhead works out.

[Knoll Argonar]

Yes, but probably most of this character development will affect the Main Plot in a way or another.



I mean, just like the Rachni in ME1, which seems it will carry over in ME3, Geth/quarian/krogan missions (that's it, Tali, Legion, Mordin and Grunt character development base) as well as YOUR relation with TIM, and/or the Council, probably will have presence in ME3 in some way or another.



For all those pesimist saying the contrary, well, sorry, different points of view.



But although the ME2 main plot may not carry over ME3 the same way ME1 will (if you don't count the Collector base choice), I find obvious that character development will in the end have a consequence in the Main Plot narrative.

[StreetlightEagle]

Daeion wrote...

flatlander five wrote...

People pissed and moaned about the MAKO in ME1; Bioware listened and gave us planet scanning. What happened? People started pissing and moaning about planet scanning.

I think the problem is most people expected them to fix the system, not simply remove it.  We'll have to see how well the Hammerhead works out.

Yeah, whoever suggested the planet scanning idea and whoever approved it need to hand their jobs over to those more capable. Who in their right minds thought that was a good idea? I probably did about 2 hours worth of planet scanning and still couldn't afford all the upgrades. Solution? Make N7 missions less of an on-rail shooter section and add an improved vehicle to collect minerals on the way. It isn't hard

[SuperZombieChow]

Daeion wrote...

flatlander five wrote...

People pissed and moaned about the MAKO in ME1; Bioware listened and gave us planet scanning. What happened? People started pissing and moaning about planet scanning.

I think the problem is most people expected them to fix the system, not simply remove it.  We'll have to see how well the Hammerhead works out.

For what it's worth, I prefer scanning to dropping down on a planet and driving around looking for piles of rocks to stop and analyze. Shepard is a soldier, a hero trying to save the galaxy, why would he hop out of his battle tank to play prospector? At least with the scanning I can tell myself that EDI is really doing it, and Cerberus is advancing me a small percentage of the resources I found while scanning the planet for my mission.

[SuperZombieChow]

Knoll Argonar wrote...

But although the ME2 main plot may not carry over ME3 the same way ME1 will (if you don't count the Collector base choice), I find obvious that character development will in the end have a consequence in the Main Plot narrative.

I agree, things like curing the Genophage or reprogramming the heretics will certainly have some impact on the end of the game. These things were well implimented. The issue here is that these segments could have just as easily been a part of ME3 and nobody would have batted an eye. The collector arc, the mission that is supposed to be the entire point of your actions in ME2, feels like an unnecessary MacGuffin to get you on the loyalty missions. This should not have been.

[Krogan Face]

SuperZombieChow wrote...

Daeion wrote...

flatlander five wrote...

People pissed and moaned about the MAKO in ME1; Bioware listened and gave us planet scanning. What happened? People started pissing and moaning about planet scanning.

I think the problem is most people expected them to fix the system, not simply remove it.  We'll have to see how well the Hammerhead works out.

For what it's worth, I prefer scanning to dropping down on a planet and driving around looking for piles of rocks to stop and analyze. Shepard is a soldier, a hero trying to save the galaxy, why would he hop out of his battle tank to play prospector? At least with the scanning I can tell myself that EDI is really doing it, and Cerberus is advancing me a small percentage of the resources I found while scanning the planet for my mission.

 
agreed

[Newbiezilla]

sedrikhcain wrote...Define "a good portion of us".

That is an interesting question, and I feel it is one we all should attempt to answer. I would deem a good portion of us to be thus; Should an intergalactic carnivorous entity be presented with this amount, they would say "That is a good portion". Any other takers?

[SuperZombieChow]

Newbiezilla wrote...

sedrikhcain wrote...Define "a good portion of us".

That is an interesting question, and I feel it is one we all should attempt to answer. I would deem a good portion of us to be thus; Should an intergalactic carnivorous entity be presented with this amount, they would say "That is a good portion". Any other takers?

Perhaps we are looking at it the wrong way. The Main Storyarc could offend the heart or brain, while satisfying the tonsils or some other vestigial part of the body. Thus, a "good portion" of us is offended, rather then an unnecessary one.

Sorry, I know it adds nothing to the conversation but I had to respond.

[Newbiezilla]

Ah, if we say a good portion of us in internal terms, we simply say our internal water is not happy at all.



(Probably best to avoid the what portion of us amounts to a good portion of us. Well, it may be fruitful discussion for others, but I best not partake.)

[Knoll Argonar]

SuperZombieChow wrote...

Knoll Argonar wrote...

But although the ME2 main plot may not carry over ME3 the same way ME1 will (if you don't count the Collector base choice), I find obvious that character development will in the end have a consequence in the Main Plot narrative.

I agree, things like curing the Genophage or reprogramming the heretics will certainly have some impact on the end of the game. These things were well implimented. The issue here is that these segments could have just as easily been a part of ME3 and nobody would have batted an eye. The collector arc, the mission that is supposed to be the entire point of your actions in ME2, feels like an unnecessary MacGuffin to get you on the loyalty missions. This should not have been.

I in fact prefer it that way.

A game to introduce characters, situations, threads and problems that will have a major role in ME3, and then develop them in the final arc. so you can skip presentations and forced dialog-plot-twists on the third game of the trilogy. I mean, I think that introducing Legion in the second act was just as important as talking about the Human Reaper in ME2, narratively, speaking. If we only saw the heretics problem in ME3, It would be like a "yeah, sure, good plot kai there, Biwoare".

Am I the only one that though that ME2 had a so much richer and deeper Universe than ME1 had? There were nearly any real problem in ME1 except the Reaper thread. And almost all Asari, Turian, Salarian, Volus, Elcor, etc. were just the same. In ME2 you have a solid-standalone min storyline that, although it may not have a "major impact" in ME3 (I disagree, but I can understand that), details will do. And good storylines are based in details, not major and obvious plot-twists or discoveries IMO.

I would find odd that every character you encounter in ME3 plays "magically" an incredible major role in that game. I prefer the ME2 way: some of them are just what they are, good characters, while some of them represent something more, like an entire spieces.

It depends on your point of view. For me, forcing a "reaper strikes back" plot-twist would be just lame. IMO, ME3 could not have a richer prequel than ME2 to start with.

[SuperZombieChow]

Knoll Argonar wrote...

I in fact prefer it that way.

A game to introduce characters, situations, threads and problems that will have a major role in ME3, and then develop them in the final arc. so you can skip presentations and forced dialog-plot-twists on the third game of the trilogy. I mean, I think that introducing Legion in the second act was just as important as talking about the Human Reaper in ME2, narratively, speaking. If we only saw the heretics problem in ME3, It would be like a "yeah, sure, good plot kai there, Biwoare".

Am I the only one that though that ME2 had a so much richer and deeper Universe than ME1 had? There were nearly any real problem in ME1 except the Reaper thread. And almost all Asari, Turian, Salarian, Volus, Elcor, etc. were just the same. In ME2 you have a solid-standalone min storyline that, although it may not have a "major impact" in ME3 (I disagree, but I can understand that), details will do. And good storylines are based in details, not major and obvious plot-twists or discoveries IMO.

I would find odd that every character you encounter in ME3 plays "magically" an incredible major role in that game. I prefer the ME2 way: some of them are just what they are, good characters, while some of them represent something more, like an entire spieces.

It depends on your point of view. For me, forcing a "reaper strikes back" plot-twist would be just lame. IMO, ME3 could not have a richer prequel than ME2 to start with.

Looks like we're just going to have to agree to disagree then. I stand by my previous assertion: the character development (and overall universe-fleshing-out) in the loyalty and recruitment missions was excellent, but the primary storyline seemed tacked on as almost an afterthought, and this is a terrible mistake. Doing an excellent job setting up potential plot influences and expanding on galactic backstory does not overwrite a main mission that basically negates itself by the end of the game.

[Booglarize]

contown wrote...

The main plot was pretty bad in ME2. The characters were great, but the core storyline felt like an afterthought.

ME2 seemed more like a prelude to Harbinger's eventual entry than a complete story in and of itself, and I think it was able to succeed in that task reasonably well. Which is why I think the strength of the story in ME3 has the potential to make or break the series (in terms of story at least, the game does have its other bright spots like its characters and a belatedly enjoyable combat system).