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[Daeion]

sedrikhcain wrote...

Daeion wrote...

The keepers didn't evolve, they were modified by the last of the protheans to no longer accept the signal that made them activate the citadel relay.  Sarren needed the conduit for a back door into the citadel so he could gain control and so Soverign could then manually activate the relay.  I don't think they were building a human reaper to try and activate the relay.  I believe they saw creating a human reaper as elevating humans above all other species because of what humans proved they were capable of and were planning on using the human reaper to lead the reaping of current galactic civilizations.

How would they be trapped outside the milky way?  Dark space is defined as the area between galaxies that is devoid of stars, it's still a part of the universe, and it's not like there's some magical force field around the galaxy keeping them out.  I took the find another way not to mean another way to get into the galaxy, but another way to destroy you.

I'll go back and watch the convo with Vigil again. I know they final Protheans had some involvement with disabling the conduit but I could've sworn Vigil also said that when Sovereign sent the signal for the keepers to open up the citadel's mass relay, this time the keepers ignored it.

The clearly wanted to build the latest reaper using humans because they now deem us worthy of such an "honor", thanks for Shepard, but their motives for doing so, in my opinion, relate to getting back into the Milky Way. Why else would they say to Shepard "we will find another way" after he stops them from building the human reaper? I don't think they wanted that new reaper to activate the old citadel relay either. I think they wanted it to build a new one or something (not sure what) but I do believe its purpose was to let them back into the Milky Way. And the reason I say "trapped" is because of the distances involved. The reapers need organic resources, just like fully organic species. The time they would need on FTL drive to get into the Milky Way prohibits them from making it into the galaxy. That MUST be the case, otherwise, why would they have bothered with everything they've done so far? Heck, why would they have needed such a contingency in the first place? They would hardly need to knock out central galactic government to win. They could just show up with a sneak attack. No one believes they exist. Their numbers would darken the skies of every known world, as they say, and we'd all be dead before we knew what hit us.

The Prothians built the conduit as a means of getting to the citadel so that they could reprogram the keepers to ignore the signal to activate the citadel relay.  If FTL is so prohibative, then how did they initially establish the mass relay network and get out into dark space the first time?  At some point there was no mass relay network and they had to establish it.  As for why knock out the central government I believe Vigil says they do it to send everything into chaos before shutting down the relay network so that no one can mount a good counter strike.  I mean think about it, the political, economic, and social center of the galaxy is gone and you can't get out your system anymore because the mass relay won't activate, that's a pretty damn effective first strike.

[sedrikhcain]

jasonontko wrote...

sedrikhcain wrote...

jasonontko wrote...

I think people are missing the OPs point. BioWare could have made a truely transcendent game. One where the decisions of the first games had a decicded impact on game play, story line. It could have revolutionized RPG and the shooter genres to creat something unique and they pissed it away. ME2 is a good game, but it could have been one of the best games ever made. I could see from ME1 they were on the glade path to this, then ME2 came in and it clear they focused on aesthetics at the expense of everthing else. It looks great but its no longer a thinklig man's game. .

I'm about done w/my 2nd playthrough of ME2. In the first one, Wrex was alive and, therefore, I got to be involved in a quest involving his clan's liaison to the krogan females. In the second one, Wrex was dead because my Shepard killed him, so that quest didn't exist. It would seem to me that would be an example of "where the decisions of the first games had a decicded impact on game play, story line."

Oh you got to be kidding me, that is such a small quest that had zero impact on main story line. 

I picked one example. There are others. The overall arch of the story doesn't change, that's true. But your gameplay and storyline are affected.

[jasonontko]

sedrikhcain wrote...

jasonontko wrote...

sedrikhcain wrote...

jasonontko wrote...

I think people are missing the OPs point. BioWare could have made a truely transcendent game. One where the decisions of the first games had a decicded impact on game play, story line. It could have revolutionized RPG and the shooter genres to creat something unique and they pissed it away. ME2 is a good game, but it could have been one of the best games ever made. I could see from ME1 they were on the glade path to this, then ME2 came in and it clear they focused on aesthetics at the expense of everthing else. It looks great but its no longer a thinklig man's game. .

I'm about done w/my 2nd playthrough of ME2. In the first one, Wrex was alive and, therefore, I got to be involved in a quest involving his clan's liaison to the krogan females. In the second one, Wrex was dead because my Shepard killed him, so that quest didn't exist. It would seem to me that would be an example of "where the decisions of the first games had a decicded impact on game play, story line."

Oh you got to be kidding me, that is such a small quest that had zero impact on main story line. 

I picked one example. There are others. The overall arch of the story doesn't change, that's true. But your gameplay and storyline are affected.

Gameplay?  So what weapons, powers or tactics did you get from your decisions?

Storyline?  Apart for different dialoge options and character cameos, there really is no difference between the story lines.

[SuperZombieChow]

jasonontko wrote...

sedrikhcain wrote...

jasonontko wrote...

sedrikhcain wrote...

jasonontko wrote...

I think people are missing the OPs point. BioWare could have made a truely transcendent game. One where the decisions of the first games had a decicded impact on game play, story line. It could have revolutionized RPG and the shooter genres to creat something unique and they pissed it away. ME2 is a good game, but it could have been one of the best games ever made. I could see from ME1 they were on the glade path to this, then ME2 came in and it clear they focused on aesthetics at the expense of everthing else. It looks great but its no longer a thinklig man's game. .

I'm about done w/my 2nd playthrough of ME2. In the first one, Wrex was alive and, therefore, I got to be involved in a quest involving his clan's liaison to the krogan females. In the second one, Wrex was dead because my Shepard killed him, so that quest didn't exist. It would seem to me that would be an example of "where the decisions of the first games had a decicded impact on game play, story line."

Oh you got to be kidding me, that is such a small quest that had zero impact on main story line. 

I picked one example. There are others. The overall arch of the story doesn't change, that's true. But your gameplay and storyline are affected.

Gameplay?  So what weapons, powers or tactics did you get from your decisions?

Storyline?  Apart for different dialoge options and character cameos, there really is no difference between the story lines.

It's not really going to come together till ME3. They can't make it divirge too much in ME2 or ME3 would become an absolute unwieldy beast. Having characters come back and getting a few cameos is just a nice way to tide us over and show they haven't forgotten that we made choices in the first game.

If ME3 comes out and the choices have no effect, then getting upset will be more justified. Until then the story isn't over, and has to be looked at as a whole before it can be judged.

[sedrikhcain]

Daeion wrote...

sedrikhcain wrote...

Daeion wrote...

The keepers didn't evolve, they were modified by the last of the protheans to no longer accept the signal that made them activate the citadel relay.  Sarren needed the conduit for a back door into the citadel so he could gain control and so Soverign could then manually activate the relay.  I don't think they were building a human reaper to try and activate the relay.  I believe they saw creating a human reaper as elevating humans above all other species because of what humans proved they were capable of and were planning on using the human reaper to lead the reaping of current galactic civilizations.

How would they be trapped outside the milky way?  Dark space is defined as the area between galaxies that is devoid of stars, it's still a part of the universe, and it's not like there's some magical force field around the galaxy keeping them out.  I took the find another way not to mean another way to get into the galaxy, but another way to destroy you.

I'll go back and watch the convo with Vigil again. I know they final Protheans had some involvement with disabling the conduit but I could've sworn Vigil also said that when Sovereign sent the signal for the keepers to open up the citadel's mass relay, this time the keepers ignored it.

The clearly wanted to build the latest reaper using humans because they now deem us worthy of such an "honor", thanks for Shepard, but their motives for doing so, in my opinion, relate to getting back into the Milky Way. Why else would they say to Shepard "we will find another way" after he stops them from building the human reaper? I don't think they wanted that new reaper to activate the old citadel relay either. I think they wanted it to build a new one or something (not sure what) but I do believe its purpose was to let them back into the Milky Way. And the reason I say "trapped" is because of the distances involved. The reapers need organic resources, just like fully organic species. The time they would need on FTL drive to get into the Milky Way prohibits them from making it into the galaxy. That MUST be the case, otherwise, why would they have bothered with everything they've done so far? Heck, why would they have needed such a contingency in the first place? They would hardly need to knock out central galactic government to win. They could just show up with a sneak attack. No one believes they exist. Their numbers would darken the skies of every known world, as they say, and we'd all be dead before we knew what hit us.

The Prothians built the conduit as a means of getting to the citadel so that they could reprogram the keepers to ignore the signal to activate the citadel relay.  If FTL is so prohibative, then how did they initially establish the mass relay network and get out into dark space the first time?  At some point there was no mass relay network and they had to establish it.  As for why knock out the central government I believe Vigil says they do it to send everything into chaos before shutting down the relay network so that no one can mount a good counter strike.  I mean think about it, the political, economic, and social center of the galaxy is gone and you can't get out your system anymore because the mass relay won't activate, that's a pretty damn effective first strike.

I'm going to have to hold off commenting about the conduit etc until i can watch vigil again. I do recall now that you're right about the Protheans building the conduit. It's the keepers and the citadel mass relay I'm trying to remember.

At some point, yes, there was no mass relay network but if you're in one place and your counterpart is in another you can both build one and co-ordinate, with no time pressure.

Knocking out the central gov't was the ultimate coupe-de-gras for their attack but they didn't really need to do it to win, IMO. I think the access to the records that the citadel gave them would be much more important. I'm not saying their old plan of taking the citadel wasn't a good one. I'm saying that if FTL from dark space to the milky way was so easy for them, why not just FTL it to the citadel and go from there? Why would they need to bother with mass relays? No organic gov't believes they exist. Even, incredibly, the alliance. So why bother with trying desperately to re-open the citadel mass relay to come in that way? I think the answer has to be because FTL would take too long/consume too many resources. 

[sedrikhcain]

jasonontko wrote...

sedrikhcain wrote...

jasonontko wrote...

sedrikhcain wrote...

jasonontko wrote...

I think people are missing the OPs point. BioWare could have made a truely transcendent game. One where the decisions of the first games had a decicded impact on game play, story line. It could have revolutionized RPG and the shooter genres to creat something unique and they pissed it away. ME2 is a good game, but it could have been one of the best games ever made. I could see from ME1 they were on the glade path to this, then ME2 came in and it clear they focused on aesthetics at the expense of everthing else. It looks great but its no longer a thinklig man's game. .

I'm about done w/my 2nd playthrough of ME2. In the first one, Wrex was alive and, therefore, I got to be involved in a quest involving his clan's liaison to the krogan females. In the second one, Wrex was dead because my Shepard killed him, so that quest didn't exist. It would seem to me that would be an example of "where the decisions of the first games had a decicded impact on game play, story line."

Oh you got to be kidding me, that is such a small quest that had zero impact on main story line. 

I picked one example. There are others. The overall arch of the story doesn't change, that's true. But your gameplay and storyline are affected.

Gameplay?  So what weapons, powers or tactics did you get from your decisions?

Storyline?  Apart for different dialoge options and character cameos, there really is no difference between the story lines.

Different dialogue options and cameos aren't a small difference for me but it's true that the main storyline hasn't radically changed. I'm not sure I really want it to do that, at least not until the final chapter. I wouldn't want the fact that Wrex is dead to have a "butterfly" effect and send the whole thing spiraling off in a completely different direction, especially not in the middle of the series.

What would be an acceptable level of divergence, in your opinion?

Gameplay changes by virtue of what class you chose to import from ME1 AND, as previously mentioned, what side missions you can unlock. Again, the experience isn't radically different but there are missions/powers you can/can't do based on what character you imported from ME1.

[Moogliepie]

The Mythical Magician wrote...

ExtremeOne wrote...

The Mythical Magician wrote...

I believe why ME2 failed for a good portion of us is because of Bioware's focus on the mainstream crowd though business wise it is prefect for making quick money but overall you guys lost some of your die hard fans on this switch of focus. I'm a fan of you guys and I love your work but ME2 disappointed me and many others. I hope on your next project you guys focus on giving your die hard fans a great game than trying to please every crowd out there.

ME2 is a great game but its not as great as its predecessor for the fact that the focus was different.
<_<

 


you need to speak for yourself because I am so sick and tired of you so called Mass Effect 1 elitist spewing your anti crap. I mean its about high time you and the rest of the Mass Effect 1 fans deal with the changes and STFU. 

If you're tired & sick of ME1 fans and their opinions then why not ignore this topic and/or avoid ones that are like this? Btw I alike all of yous are free to express your opinions and telling one to shut up is like telling yourself the same thing so if you don't like my own opinions then fine but telling me to shut up is rude and mannerless.

Just stop claiming to speak on behalf of "ME1 fans." Almost of all us who love ME2, also consider ourselves fans of ME1. The only thing that separates your ilk, is your inability to accept progress, and your propensity to troll these forums with the same stupid thread topics 24/7.

[Nyaore]

I will admit that I found Bioware's lack of focus on a plot driven storyline this time around to be rather disappointing in comparison to the first game's efforts - however it was no more disappointed than I was with how the first game completely shafted any character other than a small few in terms of development.

ME1 was a plot driven story at the sacrifice of it's characters, ME2 was a CHARACTER driven story (just as valid as a plot driven one) at the expense of it's plot. What one lacks, the other does well - and vice versa. Frankly I'm hoping that Bioware will stop going to either extreme for ME3 and combine the two into a cohesive whole. It's entirely possible to have a great overall plotline while having fleshed out and compelling characters.

[Moogliepie]

Jakegnosis wrote...

BobbyTheI wrote...

Fan of BioWare since BG1.  Loved ME2.

I wish the "true fans" would stop making these threads speaking for the rest of us. 

This.  ME2 is the best videogame I've ever played, and I had a Colecovision when I was three.

Ditto. I had an Atari 400 with games that were on cassette tapes.

[Krogan Face]

Daeion wrote...

sedrikhcain wrote...

Daeion wrote...

The keepers didn't evolve, they were modified by the last of the protheans to no longer accept the signal that made them activate the citadel relay.  Sarren needed the conduit for a back door into the citadel so he could gain control and so Soverign could then manually activate the relay.  I don't think they were building a human reaper to try and activate the relay.  I believe they saw creating a human reaper as elevating humans above all other species because of what humans proved they were capable of and were planning on using the human reaper to lead the reaping of current galactic civilizations.

How would they be trapped outside the milky way?  Dark space is defined as the area between galaxies that is devoid of stars, it's still a part of the universe, and it's not like there's some magical force field around the galaxy keeping them out.  I took the find another way not to mean another way to get into the galaxy, but another way to destroy you.

I'll go back and watch the convo with Vigil again. I know they final Protheans had some involvement with disabling the conduit but I could've sworn Vigil also said that when Sovereign sent the signal for the keepers to open up the citadel's mass relay, this time the keepers ignored it.

The clearly wanted to build the latest reaper using humans because they now deem us worthy of such an "honor", thanks for Shepard, but their motives for doing so, in my opinion, relate to getting back into the Milky Way. Why else would they say to Shepard "we will find another way" after he stops them from building the human reaper? I don't think they wanted that new reaper to activate the old citadel relay either. I think they wanted it to build a new one or something (not sure what) but I do believe its purpose was to let them back into the Milky Way. And the reason I say "trapped" is because of the distances involved. The reapers need organic resources, just like fully organic species. The time they would need on FTL drive to get into the Milky Way prohibits them from making it into the galaxy. That MUST be the case, otherwise, why would they have bothered with everything they've done so far? Heck, why would they have needed such a contingency in the first place? They would hardly need to knock out central galactic government to win. They could just show up with a sneak attack. No one believes they exist. Their numbers would darken the skies of every known world, as they say, and we'd all be dead before we knew what hit us.

The Prothians built the conduit as a means of getting to the citadel so that they could reprogram the keepers to ignore the signal to activate the citadel relay.  If FTL is so prohibative, then how did they initially establish the mass relay network and get out into dark space the first time?  At some point there was no mass relay network and they had to establish it.  As for why knock out the central government I believe Vigil says they do it to send everything into chaos before shutting down the relay network so that no one can mount a good counter strike.  I mean think about it, the political, economic, and social center of the galaxy is gone and you can't get out your system anymore because the mass relay won't activate, that's a pretty damn effective first strike.

   We humans sent of the voyager 1 into space in 1977 an since then its about 10.5 billion miles away from the sun near the edge of our solar system.  If we were to pretend this was our mass relay in dark space then we would first notice we didnt have to go along for the ride, the reapers could have sent the dark space relay remotely taken thousands or hundreds of thousands of yrs traveling at FTL speeds, and even if we "the reapers" did happen to pull the mass relay "voyager 1" along with us we would hardly consider it a reasonable distance and travel time.

Modifié par Krogan Face, 26 février 2010 - 04:52 .

[Daeion]

sedrikhcain wrote...

Daeion wrote...

sedrikhcain wrote...

Daeion wrote...

The keepers didn't evolve, they were modified by the last of the protheans to no longer accept the signal that made them activate the citadel relay.  Sarren needed the conduit for a back door into the citadel so he could gain control and so Soverign could then manually activate the relay.  I don't think they were building a human reaper to try and activate the relay.  I believe they saw creating a human reaper as elevating humans above all other species because of what humans proved they were capable of and were planning on using the human reaper to lead the reaping of current galactic civilizations.

How would they be trapped outside the milky way?  Dark space is defined as the area between galaxies that is devoid of stars, it's still a part of the universe, and it's not like there's some magical force field around the galaxy keeping them out.  I took the find another way not to mean another way to get into the galaxy, but another way to destroy you.

I'll go back and watch the convo with Vigil again. I know they final Protheans had some involvement with disabling the conduit but I could've sworn Vigil also said that when Sovereign sent the signal for the keepers to open up the citadel's mass relay, this time the keepers ignored it.

The clearly wanted to build the latest reaper using humans because they now deem us worthy of such an "honor", thanks for Shepard, but their motives for doing so, in my opinion, relate to getting back into the Milky Way. Why else would they say to Shepard "we will find another way" after he stops them from building the human reaper? I don't think they wanted that new reaper to activate the old citadel relay either. I think they wanted it to build a new one or something (not sure what) but I do believe its purpose was to let them back into the Milky Way. And the reason I say "trapped" is because of the distances involved. The reapers need organic resources, just like fully organic species. The time they would need on FTL drive to get into the Milky Way prohibits them from making it into the galaxy. That MUST be the case, otherwise, why would they have bothered with everything they've done so far? Heck, why would they have needed such a contingency in the first place? They would hardly need to knock out central galactic government to win. They could just show up with a sneak attack. No one believes they exist. Their numbers would darken the skies of every known world, as they say, and we'd all be dead before we knew what hit us.

The Prothians built the conduit as a means of getting to the citadel so that they could reprogram the keepers to ignore the signal to activate the citadel relay.  If FTL is so prohibative, then how did they initially establish the mass relay network and get out into dark space the first time?  At some point there was no mass relay network and they had to establish it.  As for why knock out the central government I believe Vigil says they do it to send everything into chaos before shutting down the relay network so that no one can mount a good counter strike.  I mean think about it, the political, economic, and social center of the galaxy is gone and you can't get out your system anymore because the mass relay won't activate, that's a pretty damn effective first strike.

I'm going to have to hold off commenting about the conduit etc until i can watch vigil again. I do recall now that you're right about the Protheans building the conduit. It's the keepers and the citadel mass relay I'm trying to remember.

At some point, yes, there was no mass relay network but if you're in one place and your counterpart is in another you can both build one and co-ordinate, with no time pressure.

Knocking out the central gov't was the ultimate coupe-de-gras for their attack but they didn't really need to do it to win, IMO. I think the access to the records that the citadel gave them would be much more important. I'm not saying their old plan of taking the citadel wasn't a good one. I'm saying that if FTL from dark space to the milky way was so easy for them, why not just FTL it to the citadel and go from there? Why would they need to bother with mass relays? No organic gov't believes they exist. Even, incredibly, the alliance. So why bother with trying desperately to re-open the citadel mass relay to come in that way? I think the answer has to be because FTL would take too long/consume too many resources. 

I'm not saying that FTL is easier then just coming in through the citadel relay, just that it's an option.  It most certainly would be easier to relay in and you avoid the chance of being spotted by some random patrol.  I don't think they are going to FTL in from dark space because it would still take a long time regardless of how advanced their drives are, I think what's more likely is that they will connect the dark space relay to another relay on the edge of our galaxy and come in that way.  Yes, they would gain a lot of information about the current civilizations from those that are on the citadel.

[Daeion]

Moogliepie wrote...

The Mythical Magician wrote...

ExtremeOne wrote...

The Mythical Magician wrote...

I believe why ME2 failed for a good portion of us is because of Bioware's focus on the mainstream crowd though business wise it is prefect for making quick money but overall you guys lost some of your die hard fans on this switch of focus. I'm a fan of you guys and I love your work but ME2 disappointed me and many others. I hope on your next project you guys focus on giving your die hard fans a great game than trying to please every crowd out there.

ME2 is a great game but its not as great as its predecessor for the fact that the focus was different.
<_<

 


you need to speak for yourself because I am so sick and tired of you so called Mass Effect 1 elitist spewing your anti crap. I mean its about high time you and the rest of the Mass Effect 1 fans deal with the changes and STFU. 

If you're tired & sick of ME1 fans and their opinions then why not ignore this topic and/or avoid ones that are like this? Btw I alike all of yous are free to express your opinions and telling one to shut up is like telling yourself the same thing so if you don't like my own opinions then fine but telling me to shut up is rude and mannerless.

Just stop claiming to speak on behalf of "ME1 fans." Almost of all us who love ME2, also consider ourselves fans of ME1. The only thing that separates your ilk, is your inability to accept progress, and your propensity to troll these forums with the same stupid thread topics 24/7.

Was it really necessary to resort to name calling and bashing of those who disagree with you?

[sedrikhcain]

Daeion wrote...



I'm not saying that FTL is easier then just coming in through the citadel relay, just that it's an option.  It most certainly would be easier to relay in and you avoid the chance of being spotted by some random patrol.  I don't think they are going to FTL in from dark space because it would still take a long time regardless of how advanced their drives are, I think what's more likely is that they will connect the dark space relay to another relay on the edge of our galaxy and come in that way.  Yes, they would gain a lot of information about the current civilizations from those that are on the citadel.

Just so I'm clear, relaying in is clearly better. But now that it's become very complicated to try to do that because of shepard's actions, why bother going through all the effort now to continue to try? if FTL is a viable way, why not just do that at this point? I don't see how any of the ME story makes sense if the reapers have another way to easily access citadel worlds from dark space. 

ETA: And I think your theory about trying to link to a mass relay out near the edge of the galaxy makes a lot of sense. Personally, I'm hoping that in ME3 they do make it into the Milky Way -- via mass relay or something even more advanced if that's possible -- and that the final battle takes place in our galaxy, not out in dark space or on a reaper ship in dark space.

Modifié par sedrikhcain, 26 février 2010 - 05:39 .

[Daeion]

Krogan Face wrote...

Daeion wrote...

sedrikhcain wrote...

Daeion wrote...

The keepers didn't evolve, they were modified by the last of the protheans to no longer accept the signal that made them activate the citadel relay.  Sarren needed the conduit for a back door into the citadel so he could gain control and so Soverign could then manually activate the relay.  I don't think they were building a human reaper to try and activate the relay.  I believe they saw creating a human reaper as elevating humans above all other species because of what humans proved they were capable of and were planning on using the human reaper to lead the reaping of current galactic civilizations.

How would they be trapped outside the milky way?  Dark space is defined as the area between galaxies that is devoid of stars, it's still a part of the universe, and it's not like there's some magical force field around the galaxy keeping them out.  I took the find another way not to mean another way to get into the galaxy, but another way to destroy you.

I'll go back and watch the convo with Vigil again. I know they final Protheans had some involvement with disabling the conduit but I could've sworn Vigil also said that when Sovereign sent the signal for the keepers to open up the citadel's mass relay, this time the keepers ignored it.

The clearly wanted to build the latest reaper using humans because they now deem us worthy of such an "honor", thanks for Shepard, but their motives for doing so, in my opinion, relate to getting back into the Milky Way. Why else would they say to Shepard "we will find another way" after he stops them from building the human reaper? I don't think they wanted that new reaper to activate the old citadel relay either. I think they wanted it to build a new one or something (not sure what) but I do believe its purpose was to let them back into the Milky Way. And the reason I say "trapped" is because of the distances involved. The reapers need organic resources, just like fully organic species. The time they would need on FTL drive to get into the Milky Way prohibits them from making it into the galaxy. That MUST be the case, otherwise, why would they have bothered with everything they've done so far? Heck, why would they have needed such a contingency in the first place? They would hardly need to knock out central galactic government to win. They could just show up with a sneak attack. No one believes they exist. Their numbers would darken the skies of every known world, as they say, and we'd all be dead before we knew what hit us.

The Prothians built the conduit as a means of getting to the citadel so that they could reprogram the keepers to ignore the signal to activate the citadel relay.  If FTL is so prohibative, then how did they initially establish the mass relay network and get out into dark space the first time?  At some point there was no mass relay network and they had to establish it.  As for why knock out the central government I believe Vigil says they do it to send everything into chaos before shutting down the relay network so that no one can mount a good counter strike.  I mean think about it, the political, economic, and social center of the galaxy is gone and you can't get out your system anymore because the mass relay won't activate, that's a pretty damn effective first strike.

   We humans sent of the voyager 1 into space in 1977 an since then its about 10.5 billion miles away from the sun near the edge of our solar system.  If we were to pretend this was our mass relay in dark space then we would first notice we didnt have to go along for the ride, the reapers could have sent the dark space relay remotely taken thousands or hundreds of thousands of yrs traveling at FTL speeds, and even if we "the reapers" did happen to pull the mass relay "voyager 1" along with us we would hardly consider it a reasonable distance and travel time.

Are we able to actually control the Voyager 1?  You're assuming that the reapers can control something that is howmany light years away and park it where they want and that there is no onsite set up needed.  Like I said, I'm not saying FTL is the easiest way for them to come in, I'm just saying it's an option.

[Daeion]

sedrikhcain wrote...

Daeion wrote...



I'm not saying that FTL is easier then just coming in through the citadel relay, just that it's an option.  It most certainly would be easier to relay in and you avoid the chance of being spotted by some random patrol.  I don't think they are going to FTL in from dark space because it would still take a long time regardless of how advanced their drives are, I think what's more likely is that they will connect the dark space relay to another relay on the edge of our galaxy and come in that way.  Yes, they would gain a lot of information about the current civilizations from those that are on the citadel.

Just so I'm clear, relaying in is clearly better. But now that it's become very complicated to try to do that because of shepard's actions, why bother going through all the effort now to continue to try? if FTL is a viable way, why not just do that at this point? I don't see how any of the ME story makes sense if the reapers have another way to easily access citadel worlds from dark space. 

ETA: And I think your theory about trying to link to a mass relay out near the edge of the galaxy makes a lot of sense. Personally, I'm hoping that in ME3 they do make it into the Milky Way -- via mass relay or something even more advanced if that's possible -- and that the final battle takes place in our galaxy, not out in dark space or on a reaper ship in dark space.

I don't think they are trying for the citadel relay anymore and I think they have been on the move since before the events of ME.  I always took it as the reapers were aware that they could no longer control the keepers after initially trying to open the citadael relay and that was why Soverign had to intervene,  They know Soverign has failed and so started working on getting her via other means.  Now I don't think anyone really knows what the point of the human reaper was and how that was supposed to play into the overall scheme of things, maybe it was just a pet project of Harbingers?  To me that's one of the reasons I feel ME2 should have come before ME because it's a better way to introduce them and then you move into the ME story with the council being betrayed by one fo their own and you go after saren only to learn that it's really a reaper pulling his string and you finally have a confrontation with a full fledged reaper.  As it is, ME feels like we are Batman fighting the Joker, and ME2 feels like we are Batman fighting Joker's minions.

[The Mythical Magician]

StreetlightEagle wrote...

SuperZombieChow wrote...

mundus66 wrote...
 Pretty sure the outcome of every loyalty mission will carry over to ME3, so it will definitely be more stuff carried over from this game than it was from ME1.

Some examples, destroy or reprogram the heretics, destroy or keep the geneophage cure, kill Samara or Morinth, Tali is/is not exiled and so on. Plus the fact that everybody can die will change some things up too.

We're talking mostly main storyline here.  The main storyline did not change at all. The whole thing could have been skipped. No narrative development.

Now CHARACTER development? We had that in spades, and it was fabulous. It was so good, in fact, that it made the narrative development look all the worse. The Collector threat, or whatever the reapers decided to use, should have worked. They needed to manage to actually open a path into the galaxy, and start moving along it. One that conveniently takes some time to get here so that Shepard can collect his army, while potentially giving him some proof of the reapers existence (good chance to make keeping the base seem less like a blatantly bad decision). Having the collectors show up, act all scary, then fail leaving the Reapers still stuck out in dark space was a mistake. The best ending to a middle segment of a trilogy is one where the villian gains the upper hand, so that the hero enters the finale with an uphill battle ahead of him.

Yeah, I hate having to keep bringing up Star Wars, but Luke is left a broken man at the end of Empire which makes his return in Jedi all the more awesome.

I agree with the bolded words all the way, Shepard at the end of his travels in ME2 should of been him getting beaten up (Mentally and Physically), weaken & broken instead of him coming out as superior & almost unstoppable especially if there is to be sequel.

[FlintlockJazz]

bjdbwea wrote...

Xandurpein wrote...

Could you please explain to me how the design choice of having several shorter stories, rather than one main plot could in anyway be construed as 'catering to casual gamers'.

In short: Casual games = quick in, quick out. It has to be possible to start and quit playing at leisure and at any  time. Not compatible with this concept are: "Complicated" things and everything that requires you to sit there for a longer time or to remember things. But all these things are required for proper main stories with a minimum of depth. So, there.

Actually I would argue that casual = no or barebones plot designed only to give excuse for shooting people.  In a way, short stories can be confusing for someone who is used to a big story that leads them from start to finish.

bjdbwea wrote...

Xandurpein wrote...

Agreed it is in a sense a collection of short stories, rather than a long story, but show me any game that has more well written and thought provoking stories than Mass Effect 2. I can think of a few that can stand next to it, but they are all from Bioware.

That is true, and doesn't speak well for the gaming industry. Indeed, almost all my examples would come from BioWare, the best example ME 1. That's why I am as disappointed with ME 2 as I am. The short stories would be
great if they were side quests. It would indeed be the best companion side quests ever. But as the main game, it just doesn't cut it. ME 1 was like a playable Hollywood movie. ME 2 is like a playable TV series. Good for you if you like this change. I don't.

I understand where you're coming from, but personally I rather enjoyed the short stories.  They allowed the writers to try out vastly different styles within the same game, from the serial killer hunting in Samara's to the ethical dilemma of Mordin's tale.  Most games these days are built around a central plot, so Bioware's approach was quite refreshing for me.  Then again, I enjoy the idea of cruising around seeking my own adventures Firefly style. [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/grin.png[/smilie]

Modifié par FlintlockJazz, 26 février 2010 - 10:01 .

[smudboy]

FlintlockJazz wrote...

I understand where you're coming from, but personally I rather enjoyed the short stories.  They allowed the writers to try out vastly different styles within the same game, from the serial killer hunting in Samara's to the ethical dilemma of Mordin's tale.  Most games these days are built around a central plot, so Bioware's approach was quite refreshing for me.  Then again, I enjoy the idea of cruising around seeking my own adventures Firefly style. [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/grin.png[/smilie]

So they should sacrifice the main plot for side missions?  Pathetic.

They could've applied that quality and creativity to the main plot, but they didn't.

They screwed it up big time, and all arguments point to "side missions are the plot" crap.  ME2 isn't even a bridge to ME3.  It's completely avoidable.

[Krogan Face]

Daeion wrote...

Krogan Face wrote...

Daeion wrote...

sedrikhcain wrote...

Daeion wrote...

The keepers didn't evolve, they were modified by the last of the protheans to no longer accept the signal that made them activate the citadel relay.  Sarren needed the conduit for a back door into the citadel so he could gain control and so Soverign could then manually activate the relay.  I don't think they were building a human reaper to try and activate the relay.  I believe they saw creating a human reaper as elevating humans above all other species because of what humans proved they were capable of and were planning on using the human reaper to lead the reaping of current galactic civilizations.

How would they be trapped outside the milky way?  Dark space is defined as the area between galaxies that is devoid of stars, it's still a part of the universe, and it's not like there's some magical force field around the galaxy keeping them out.  I took the find another way not to mean another way to get into the galaxy, but another way to destroy you.

I'll go back and watch the convo with Vigil again. I know they final Protheans had some involvement with disabling the conduit but I could've sworn Vigil also said that when Sovereign sent the signal for the keepers to open up the citadel's mass relay, this time the keepers ignored it.

The clearly wanted to build the latest reaper using humans because they now deem us worthy of such an "honor", thanks for Shepard, but their motives for doing so, in my opinion, relate to getting back into the Milky Way. Why else would they say to Shepard "we will find another way" after he stops them from building the human reaper? I don't think they wanted that new reaper to activate the old citadel relay either. I think they wanted it to build a new one or something (not sure what) but I do believe its purpose was to let them back into the Milky Way. And the reason I say "trapped" is because of the distances involved. The reapers need organic resources, just like fully organic species. The time they would need on FTL drive to get into the Milky Way prohibits them from making it into the galaxy. That MUST be the case, otherwise, why would they have bothered with everything they've done so far? Heck, why would they have needed such a contingency in the first place? They would hardly need to knock out central galactic government to win. They could just show up with a sneak attack. No one believes they exist. Their numbers would darken the skies of every known world, as they say, and we'd all be dead before we knew what hit us.

The Prothians built the conduit as a means of getting to the citadel so that they could reprogram the keepers to ignore the signal to activate the citadel relay.  If FTL is so prohibative, then how did they initially establish the mass relay network and get out into dark space the first time?  At some point there was no mass relay network and they had to establish it.  As for why knock out the central government I believe Vigil says they do it to send everything into chaos before shutting down the relay network so that no one can mount a good counter strike.  I mean think about it, the political, economic, and social center of the galaxy is gone and you can't get out your system anymore because the mass relay won't activate, that's a pretty damn effective first strike.

   We humans sent of the voyager 1 into space in 1977 an since then its about 10.5 billion miles away from the sun near the edge of our solar system.  If we were to pretend this was our mass relay in dark space then we would first notice we didnt have to go along for the ride, the reapers could have sent the dark space relay remotely taken thousands or hundreds of thousands of yrs traveling at FTL speeds, and even if we "the reapers" did happen to pull the mass relay "voyager 1" along with us we would hardly consider it a reasonable distance and travel time.

Are we able to actually control the Voyager 1?  You're assuming that the reapers can control something that is howmany light years away and park it where they want and that there is no onsite set up needed.  Like I said, I'm not saying FTL is the easiest way for them to come in, I'm just saying it's an option.

 yes we can control voyager 1, and im not assumeing much,  the reapers are advanced machines with incredible computing powers.  Theyd have no problem controling the relay remotley , just as voyager 1 is still responsive to our PRIMATIVE comands  on earth.  Also they  wouldnt even have to control the relay just calculate and preprogram all of the manuvers and when the relay should stop moveing.   

Stop posting just to get the last word, if u dont have a real response then move on.

 Just because the reapers have a relay in dark space dosent mean FTL speeds are a viable or even possible means for them to get to and from there.   Theres no reason to even think reapers ever have made the journey to or from dark space useing FTL, they all probally just started going through to dark space after they confirmed the relay was in position.  They could have simply sent a relay to dark space remotely takeing thousands of yrs, wich is what? like a day in reaper life maybe.  And once they had this safe haven they could build numbers and have an army of reapers ready to repaet this cycle over and over again.

Also I never disagred with your point about alternative mass relays to get to the galaxy, id like to think the reapers have hundreds of contingency plans and that is one of them.

Modifié par Krogan Face, 26 février 2010 - 03:40 .

[vometia]

Ugh... "die hard fans", "real RPG players"; I feel like I've inadvertently wandered into another incarnation of the "Fallout vs Fallout 3" flaming or the interminable "Daggerfall vs. Morrowind vs. Oblivion" griping. Is there any franchise that's free of this "not good as it used to be" mentality because they changed something without adequately consulting the "hardcore players" first? Sure, there's a few things I prefer about ME, and there's a few things I prefer about ME2. I think they can be slightly different without one automatically being inferior. But maybe I'm just not hardcore enough to see it.

[FlintlockJazz]

smudboy wrote...

FlintlockJazz wrote...

I understand where you're coming from, but personally I rather enjoyed the short stories.  They allowed the writers to try out vastly different styles within the same game, from the serial killer hunting in Samara's to the ethical dilemma of Mordin's tale.  Most games these days are built around a central plot, so Bioware's approach was quite refreshing for me.  Then again, I enjoy the idea of cruising around seeking my own adventures Firefly style. [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/grin.png[/smilie]

So they should sacrifice the main plot for side missions?  Pathetic.

They could've applied that quality and creativity to the main plot, but they didn't.

They screwed it up big time, and all arguments point to "side missions are the plot" crap.  ME2 isn't even a bridge to ME3.  It's completely avoidable.

You do realise they have a limited budget right?  They decided to try a character-focused plot for this game and I think they did it rather well.  Of course you'll just call my opinion crap, and you are entitled to your opinion of course...

[klossen4]

smudboy wrote...

FlintlockJazz wrote...

I understand where you're coming from, but personally I rather enjoyed the short stories.  They allowed the writers to try out vastly different styles within the same game, from the serial killer hunting in Samara's to the ethical dilemma of Mordin's tale.  Most games these days are built around a central plot, so Bioware's approach was quite refreshing for me.  Then again, I enjoy the idea of cruising around seeking my own adventures Firefly style. [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/grin.png[/smilie]

So they should sacrifice the main plot for side missions?  Pathetic.

They could've applied that quality and creativity to the main plot, but they didn't.

They screwed it up big time, and all arguments point to "side missions are the plot" crap.  ME2 isn't even a bridge to ME3.  It's completely avoidable.

how have you played me3??

[alickar]

The Mythical Magician wrote...

EDITED: I believe why ME2 failed for a good portion of us is because of Bioware's focus on the mainstream crowd though business wise it is prefect for making quick money but overall you guys lost the main plot on this switch of focus. I'm a fan of you guys and I love your work but ME2 disappointed me and most likely many others. I hope on your next project you guys focus on more on the story of a game than trying to please every crowd out there.

ME2 is a great game but its not as great as its predecessor for the fact that the focus was different which Imo sacrificed the main plot and the immersion.
<_<

if Mass 2 faild on a portion of us it would of gotton the rating 5 out of 5  from g4  and an 8.0 on gamestop

[alickar]

alickar wrote...

The Mythical Magician wrote...

EDITED: I believe why ME2 failed for a good portion of us is because of Bioware's focus on the mainstream crowd though business wise it is prefect for making quick money but overall you guys lost the main plot on this switch of focus. I'm a fan of you guys and I love your work but ME2 disappointed me and most likely many others. I hope on your next project you guys focus on more on the story of a game than trying to please every crowd out there.

ME2 is a great game but its not as great as its predecessor for the fact that the focus was different which Imo sacrificed the main plot and the immersion.
<_<

if Mass 2 faild on a portion of us it wouldent  of gotton the rating 5 out of 5  from g4  and an 8.0 on gamestop