465 réponses à ce sujet

[GodWood]

BobbyTheI wrote...

Fan of BioWare since BG1.  Loved ME2.

I wish the "true fans" would stop making these threads speaking for the rest of us. 

QFT.

[sedrikhcain]

ZennExile wrote...

sedrikhcain wrote...

Daeion wrote...

sedrikhcain wrote...

smudboy wrote...

FlintlockJazz wrote...

I understand where you're coming from, but personally I rather enjoyed the short stories.  They allowed the writers to try out vastly different styles within the same game, from the serial killer hunting in Samara's to the ethical dilemma of Mordin's tale.  Most games these days are built around a central plot, so Bioware's approach was quite refreshing for me.  Then again, I enjoy the idea of cruising around seeking my own adventures Firefly style. ../../../images/forum/emoticons/grin.png

So they should sacrifice the main plot for side missions?  Pathetic.

They could've applied that quality and creativity to the main plot, but they didn't.

They screwed it up big time, and all arguments point to "side missions are the plot" crap.  ME2 isn't even a bridge to ME3.  It's completely avoidable.

Actually, in most cases, the second part of any trilogy is far more character driven than story driven. You spend a lot of time introducing characters and establishing storylines in the first one. In part two, you expand the audience's understanding of character and and depth to the plot, rather than advancing it a great deal.

Even The Holy Trilogy -- Star Wars  -- follows this format.

Yeah but Star Wars didn't introduce an entirely new cast like of characters like ME2 did.

No, it didn't. Wasn't impying  that it did. Just noting that, even in trilogies pretty much universally lauded, character development typically trumps plot development in the second leg. 

These comparisons have nothing to do with "REPLACING" plot development with character development.  In some unique cases, yes the character development is more important, but in ME2 character development completely replaces plot development and that's the porblem.

Deluding the problem with nonsense doesn't change this key bit of information.

I was going to bother clarifying my position on this. Then I saw who made the reply. Nevermind.

[Daeion]

sedrikhcain wrote...

Daeion wrote...

sedrikhcain wrote...

smudboy wrote...

FlintlockJazz wrote...

I understand where you're coming from, but personally I rather enjoyed the short stories.  They allowed the writers to try out vastly different styles within the same game, from the serial killer hunting in Samara's to the ethical dilemma of Mordin's tale.  Most games these days are built around a central plot, so Bioware's approach was quite refreshing for me.  Then again, I enjoy the idea of cruising around seeking my own adventures Firefly style. ../../../images/forum/emoticons/grin.png

So they should sacrifice the main plot for side missions?  Pathetic.

They could've applied that quality and creativity to the main plot, but they didn't.

They screwed it up big time, and all arguments point to "side missions are the plot" crap.  ME2 isn't even a bridge to ME3.  It's completely avoidable.

Actually, in most cases, the second part of any trilogy is far more character driven than story driven. You spend a lot of time introducing characters and establishing storylines in the first one. In part two, you expand the audience's understanding of character and and depth to the plot, rather than advancing it a great deal.

Even The Holy Trilogy -- Star Wars  -- follows this format.

Yeah but Star Wars didn't introduce an entirely new cast like of characters like ME2 did.

No, it didn't. Wasn't impying  that it did. Just noting that, even in trilogies pretty much universally lauded, character development typically trumps plot development in the second leg. 

Right, I get that, but that typically means the development of the original cast because that's who we grew attached to in the first act instead of a new cast.  If BW would have been using the original cast I think they could have focused a little more on the over all plot as well because they didn't need to introduce an entirely new cast and try to get us to love them.

[Daeion]

Krogan Face wrote...

Daeion wrote...

Krogan Face wrote...

Daeion wrote...

Krogan Face wrote...
   We humans sent of the voyager 1 into space in 1977 an since then its about 10.5 billion miles away from the sun near the edge of our solar system.  If we were to pretend this was our mass relay in dark space then we would first notice we didnt have to go along for the ride, the reapers could have sent the dark space relay remotely taken thousands or hundreds of thousands of yrs traveling at FTL speeds, and even if we "the reapers" did happen to pull the mass relay "voyager 1" along with us we would hardly consider it a reasonable distance and travel time.

Are we able to actually control the Voyager 1?  You're assuming that the reapers can control something that is howmany light years away and park it where they want and that there is no onsite set up needed.  Like I said, I'm not saying FTL is the easiest way for them to come in, I'm just saying it's an option.

 yes we can control voyager 1, and im not assumeing much,  the reapers are advanced machines with incredible computing powers.  Theyd have no problem controling the relay remotley , just as voyager 1 is still responsive to our PRIMATIVE comands  on earth.  Also they  wouldnt even have to control the relay just calculate and preprogram all of the manuvers and when the relay should stop moveing.   

Stop posting just to get the last word, if u dont have a real response then move on.

 Just because the reapers have a relay in dark space dosent mean FTL speeds are a viable or even possible means for them to get to and from there.   Theres no reason to even think reapers ever have made the journey to or from dark space useing FTL, they all probally just started going through to dark space after they confirmed the relay was in position.  They could have simply sent a relay to dark space remotely takeing thousands of yrs, wich is what? like a day in reaper life maybe.  And once they had this safe haven they could build numbers and have an army of reapers ready to repaet this cycle over and over again.

Also I never disagred with your point about alternative mass relays to get to the galaxy, id like to think the reapers have hundreds of contingency plans and that is one of them.

Interesting, I didn't know that we still controlled voyager, I thought we were simply just receiving it's signal.  So are you then argueing that the reapers just sent all the mass relays out across the galaxy and that there was no on site activation required?  Wouldn't you think that they would have wanted to scout ahead of time before just sending a relay somewhere?  Do we know har far into dark space they are?  For all we know they could only be 1 days worth of travel via FTL into dark space.  You are saying that they reapers are advanced enough to remotely control, position, and activate a relay that is how many light years away but they can't have developed FTL drives that are more advanced then what are used in the ME Galaxy? 

To me there's every reason to believe that at some point at least a handful of reapers had to make the journey into dark space to pick a hibernation spot and bring a mass relay with them while at the same time other reapers were moving relays across the galaxy establishing the relay network.  To me it's like Stargate, at some point someone had to make the journey to pick suitable locations and set up the devices.

I'm not posting just to get the last word, I'm trying to have a discussion, seems more like you need to have the last word since you just had to bring this up again...

 First off i ment no offence to u im just bored. 

  That being said u cant seriously belive that the reapers toed all the mass relays into place through out the galaxy as well as the one in dark space, its just to inefficient.  Yes to your second question mostly, im sure the reapers had a semi large area that they occupied before the time of the relays being active, but u seem to be under estimating the distances involved and saying they are more advanced who knows how fast there FTL is, thats a desperate attempt sorry... Also controlling something at a far of distance isnt that amazing like i said with Voyager 1. And why cant the relay have a sensor system that sends back data to the reapers why do u think they had to go to every location to establish a relay thats just silly. Granted even sending data back to the reapers form a trvalling relay could take a while using light speed data streams but after one relay is set up it cuts this travel time drastically its a slow process but it gets faster with each working relay thats into place.  Not sure if theres any refference to anything like sub space in the ME universe but that could also speed up data streams, again not sure about that.  
    Anyway all thats required is to preprograming cordinates or send data streams to the relay thats all thats  required its just what humans do only ramped up and on mega techno steroids. Howerver saying there FTL drives could be amazinglly advanced dosent hold up, how much more advanced? Like mass relay advanced point to point instantly, what if human FTL is 1billion times slower and just as inefficient than Mass relay travel and what Reaper FTL is 1million times slower.  Not to mention reapers are not specialized, they are sapient and have many functions, sending a mass relay out to a destination has only 2 get there and then work as a relay, its a more simple device and dosent waste energy through all the other functioons that reapers have.
   The early reapers may have had a range that simply didnt allow them to grow in numbers and thus u have the whole relay system  that may have taken 100,000 yrs to fully establish but theyve got the time right, and dormant reapers and the cycle of reaping and all that can comense.   Also since the citadel relay conects wit hthe dark space relay and seems to be special in that reguard, then its resonable to assume that the gap between theese 2 relays in greater than any other relay gap. So the citadel relay may have access to far greater resources and power than regular relays maybe the citidel its self amplifies the relay so it can make the jump to and from dark space possible, so it dosent seem like there very close to our galaxy to me.  I think there was a cut scene somewere in there that actually showed the reapers in dark space looking into the galaxy, it looked deep into dark space, but im not sure the distance or if im even remembering the scene corectlly.

Ok, finally worked myself up to replying to this.

I most certainly do believe that it makes more sense to think that the Reapers first scouted and then either toed or more likely constructed onsite all the relays instead of just firing relays off in different directions
and hoping that they find a suitable location.  I’m not underestimating the distances, I understand how vast and long it would take, but to a race of immortal machines time doesn’t really matter.  I don’t think it’s a stretch at all to say we don’t know how advanced their FTL drives are.  If it would take us 1000 years to travel a distance via FTL and it only takes them 10 years, that’s a huge difference. No it’s not as ideal as relay travel but that doesn’t mean it’s not a possibility.  According to the books the ME universe doesn’t use subspace, instead there are a bunch of communications buoys that fire bursts of data from one to the next.  So we don’t know what the Reapers had in place when constructing the relays so it’s entirely possible that remote control was not viable because it would take to long for the signals to be received on both ends.  You’re also assuming that’s there’s no sort
of onsite setup, or activation that would be required of the relays. 

All relays are partnered with only 1 other relay, that’s why when you go anywhere on the galaxy map it has you hitting multiple systems before getting to your final destination.  It’s also mentioned that the alliance doesn’t have a large enough fleet to protect every colony at the same time so they post fleets at relay hubs where there is more then one relay and then they jump to the appropriate system when they get a distress call.  So that
is why I say that the reapers may realign the dark space relay to another one somewhere on the edge of our galaxy and hop there first, shut down the relay network, and then proceed to the citadel.

 

I believe you’re talking about the end scene of ME2.  I assume that we are seeing them emerge from dark space but I know a few others have said that it is simply the reapers emerging from hibernation.  To me that scene made it seem clear that they were simply coming the old fashioned way but we really won’t know until ME3 or if BW releases some sort of DLC or expac that leads into ME3.  Just to reiterate once agin, I’m not saying FTL would be the preferred meathod of transit, obviously not because we have the relay network, I’m just saying that it could be how they do decide to get here.

Modifié par Daeion, 27 février 2010 - 07:34 .

[Vanaer]

BobbyTheI wrote...

Fan of BioWare since BG1.  Loved ME2.

I wish the "true fans" would stop making these threads speaking for the rest of us. 

This. I enjoyed the game and I think it's an AAA game. I would prefer to see more focus on main plot though, as opposed to these loyalty and recruitment missions. I prefer to pick them up on the go (like Wrex and Garrus in ME1). But we'll see, loose ends must be tied in ME3.

And to the above post: I'd say they're ending their hibernation. However, as said by the great prophet of doom, Harbinger Himself: "We'll find another way". I doubt that way will be 'okay, let's just fly that way'. They probaly work through agents, other reapers etc. etc. Perhaps they're amassing computing power by networking, coming up with another way. Hell if I know. As stated by Vigil, the reapers are trapped in dark space.

Modifié par Vanaer, 27 février 2010 - 08:02 .

[sedrikhcain]

EDIT: This post refers to one from Daieon above. The coding has just gone screwy on it, so took all the quote stuff out.



I do agree that had they ditched all the recruitment missions they could've developed the story more or, more likely, developed the already-established characters more. And there is a good chance that doing so would've resulted in a tighter, more focused story. I just enjoyed what they did do enough that it doesn't bother me. I mean, we've had people on this very thread using words like "pathetic" and saying BW screwed up big time. I just don't see that. at all.

Modifié par sedrikhcain, 27 février 2010 - 10:49 .

[Krogan Face]

Daeion wrote...

Krogan Face wrote...

Daeion wrote...

Krogan Face wrote...

Daeion wrote...

Krogan Face wrote...
   We humans sent of the voyager 1 into space in 1977 an since then its about 10.5 billion miles away from the sun near the edge of our solar system.  If we were to pretend this was our mass relay in dark space then we would first notice we didnt have to go along for the ride, the reapers could have sent the dark space relay remotely taken thousands or hundreds of thousands of yrs traveling at FTL speeds, and even if we "the reapers" did happen to pull the mass relay "voyager 1" along with us we would hardly consider it a reasonable distance and travel time.

Are we able to actually control the Voyager 1?  You're assuming that the reapers can control something that is howmany light years away and park it where they want and that there is no onsite set up needed.  Like I said, I'm not saying FTL is the easiest way for them to come in, I'm just saying it's an option.

 yes we can control voyager 1, and im not assumeing much,  the reapers are advanced machines with incredible computing powers.  Theyd have no problem controling the relay remotley , just as voyager 1 is still responsive to our PRIMATIVE comands  on earth.  Also they  wouldnt even have to control the relay just calculate and preprogram all of the manuvers and when the relay should stop moveing.   

Stop posting just to get the last word, if u dont have a real response then move on.

 Just because the reapers have a relay in dark space dosent mean FTL speeds are a viable or even possible means for them to get to and from there.   Theres no reason to even think reapers ever have made the journey to or from dark space useing FTL, they all probally just started going through to dark space after they confirmed the relay was in position.  They could have simply sent a relay to dark space remotely takeing thousands of yrs, wich is what? like a day in reaper life maybe.  And once they had this safe haven they could build numbers and have an army of reapers ready to repaet this cycle over and over again.

Also I never disagred with your point about alternative mass relays to get to the galaxy, id like to think the reapers have hundreds of contingency plans and that is one of them.

Interesting, I didn't know that we still controlled voyager, I thought we were simply just receiving it's signal.  So are you then argueing that the reapers just sent all the mass relays out across the galaxy and that there was no on site activation required?  Wouldn't you think that they would have wanted to scout ahead of time before just sending a relay somewhere?  Do we know har far into dark space they are?  For all we know they could only be 1 days worth of travel via FTL into dark space.  You are saying that they reapers are advanced enough to remotely control, position, and activate a relay that is how many light years away but they can't have developed FTL drives that are more advanced then what are used in the ME Galaxy? 

To me there's every reason to believe that at some point at least a handful of reapers had to make the journey into dark space to pick a hibernation spot and bring a mass relay with them while at the same time other reapers were moving relays across the galaxy establishing the relay network.  To me it's like Stargate, at some point someone had to make the journey to pick suitable locations and set up the devices.

I'm not posting just to get the last word, I'm trying to have a discussion, seems more like you need to have the last word since you just had to bring this up again...

 First off i ment no offence to u im just bored. 

  That being said u cant seriously belive that the reapers toed all the mass relays into place through out the galaxy as well as the one in dark space, its just to inefficient.  Yes to your second question mostly, im sure the reapers had a semi large area that they occupied before the time of the relays being active, but u seem to be under estimating the distances involved and saying they are more advanced who knows how fast there FTL is, thats a desperate attempt sorry... Also controlling something at a far of distance isnt that amazing like i said with Voyager 1. And why cant the relay have a sensor system that sends back data to the reapers why do u think they had to go to every location to establish a relay thats just silly. Granted even sending data back to the reapers form a trvalling relay could take a while using light speed data streams but after one relay is set up it cuts this travel time drastically its a slow process but it gets faster with each working relay thats into place.  Not sure if theres any refference to anything like sub space in the ME universe but that could also speed up data streams, again not sure about that.  
    Anyway all thats required is to preprograming cordinates or send data streams to the relay thats all thats  required its just what humans do only ramped up and on mega techno steroids. Howerver saying there FTL drives could be amazinglly advanced dosent hold up, how much more advanced? Like mass relay advanced point to point instantly, what if human FTL is 1billion times slower and just as inefficient than Mass relay travel and what Reaper FTL is 1million times slower.  Not to mention reapers are not specialized, they are sapient and have many functions, sending a mass relay out to a destination has only 2 get there and then work as a relay, its a more simple device and dosent waste energy through all the other functioons that reapers have.
   The early reapers may have had a range that simply didnt allow them to grow in numbers and thus u have the whole relay system  that may have taken 100,000 yrs to fully establish but theyve got the time right, and dormant reapers and the cycle of reaping and all that can comense.   Also since the citadel relay conects wit hthe dark space relay and seems to be special in that reguard, then its resonable to assume that the gap between theese 2 relays in greater than any other relay gap. So the citadel relay may have access to far greater resources and power than regular relays maybe the citidel its self amplifies the relay so it can make the jump to and from dark space possible, so it dosent seem like there very close to our galaxy to me.  I think there was a cut scene somewere in there that actually showed the reapers in dark space looking into the galaxy, it looked deep into dark space, but im not sure the distance or if im even remembering the scene corectlly.

Ok, finally worked myself up to replying to this.

I most certainly do believe that it makes more sense to think that the Reapers first scouted and then either toed or more likely constructed onsite all the relays instead of just firing relays off in different directions
and hoping that they find a suitable location.  I’m not underestimating the distances, I understand how vast and long it would take, but to a race of immortal machines time doesn’t really matter.  I don’t think it’s a stretch at all to say we don’t know how advanced their FTL drives are.  If it would take us 1000 years to travel a distance via FTL and it only takes them 10 years, that’s a huge difference. No it’s not as ideal as relay travel but that doesn’t mean it’s not a possibility.  According to the books the ME universe doesn’t use subspace, instead there are a bunch of communications buoys that fire bursts of data from one to the next.  So we don’t know what the Reapers had in place when constructing the relays so it’s entirely possible that remote control was not viable because it would take to long for the signals to be received on both ends.  You’re also assuming that’s there’s no sort
of onsite setup, or activation that would be required of the relays. 

All relays are partnered with only 1 other relay, that’s why when you go anywhere on the galaxy map it has you hitting multiple systems before getting to your final destination.  It’s also mentioned that the alliance doesn’t have a large enough fleet to protect every colony at the same time so they post fleets at relay hubs where there is more then one relay and then they jump to the appropriate system when they get a distress call.  So that
is why I say that the reapers may realign the dark space relay to another one somewhere on the edge of our galaxy and hop there first, shut down the relay network, and then proceed to the citadel.

 

I believe you’re talking about the end scene of ME2.  I assume that we are seeing them emerge from dark space but I know a few others have said that it is simply the reapers emerging from hibernation.  To me that scene made it seem clear that they were simply coming the old fashioned way but we really won’t know until ME3 or if BW releases some sort of DLC or expac that leads into ME3.  Just to reiterate once agin, I’m not saying FTL would be the preferred meathod of transit, obviously not because we have the relay network, I’m just saying that it could be how they do decide to get here.

   I wont disagree with alot of the more obvious points u make, however on the establishment of the mass relay system [ CLICHE INCOMING! ]  lets just agree to disagree.   Hopefully in ME3 there will be a copious amount of codex on reaper development.

[Oawa]

Daeion wrote...

sedrikhcain wrote...

smudboy wrote...

FlintlockJazz wrote...

I understand where you're coming from, but personally I rather enjoyed the short stories.  They allowed the writers to try out vastly different styles within the same game, from the serial killer hunting in Samara's to the ethical dilemma of Mordin's tale.  Most games these days are built around a central plot, so Bioware's approach was quite refreshing for me.  Then again, I enjoy the idea of cruising around seeking my own adventures Firefly style. ../../../images/forum/emoticons/grin.png

So they should sacrifice the main plot for side missions?  Pathetic.

They could've applied that quality and creativity to the main plot, but they didn't.

They screwed it up big time, and all arguments point to "side missions are the plot" crap.  ME2 isn't even a bridge to ME3.  It's completely avoidable.

Actually, in most cases, the second part of any trilogy is far more character driven than story driven. You spend a lot of time introducing characters and establishing storylines in the first one. In part two, you expand the audience's understanding of character and and depth to the plot, rather than advancing it a great deal.

Even The Holy Trilogy -- Star Wars  -- follows this format.

Yeah but Star Wars didn't introduce an entirely new cast like of characters like ME2 did.

Star Wars wasn't originally planned as a trilogy either....So who really knows what Lucas would have done if he had preplanned it to be a trilogy.  Oh right.....just look at episode I-III.

[Daeion]

sedrikhcain wrote...

EDIT: This post refers to one from Daieon above. The coding has just gone screwy on it, so took all the quote stuff out.



I do agree that had they ditched all the recruitment missions they could've developed the story more or, more likely, developed the already-established characters more. And there is a good chance that doing so would've resulted in a tighter, more focused story. I just enjoyed what they did do enough that it doesn't bother me. I mean, we've had people on this very thread using words like "pathetic" and saying BW screwed up big time. I just don't see that. at all.

I wouldn't say ME2 is pathetic as it's a great stand alone game and I really do enjoy it, I would however say that they did screw up on the continuation of the story from ME but I'm assuming we will have to agree to disagree on that point.

[Daeion]

Oawa wrote...

Daeion wrote...

sedrikhcain wrote...

smudboy wrote...

FlintlockJazz wrote...

I understand where you're coming from, but personally I rather enjoyed the short stories.  They allowed the writers to try out vastly different styles within the same game, from the serial killer hunting in Samara's to the ethical dilemma of Mordin's tale.  Most games these days are built around a central plot, so Bioware's approach was quite refreshing for me.  Then again, I enjoy the idea of cruising around seeking my own adventures Firefly style. ../../../images/forum/emoticons/grin.png

So they should sacrifice the main plot for side missions?  Pathetic.

They could've applied that quality and creativity to the main plot, but they didn't.

They screwed it up big time, and all arguments point to "side missions are the plot" crap.  ME2 isn't even a bridge to ME3.  It's completely avoidable.

Actually, in most cases, the second part of any trilogy is far more character driven than story driven. You spend a lot of time introducing characters and establishing storylines in the first one. In part two, you expand the audience's understanding of character and and depth to the plot, rather than advancing it a great deal.

Even The Holy Trilogy -- Star Wars  -- follows this format.

Yeah but Star Wars didn't introduce an entirely new cast like of characters like ME2 did.

Star Wars wasn't originally planned as a trilogy either....So who really knows what Lucas would have done if he had preplanned it to be a trilogy.  Oh right.....just look at episode I-III.

Wasn't it technically supposed to be 3 trilogies, so 9 episodes in all and really the only thing that was supposed to happen in Return of the Jedi was the Rescue of Han?  Perhaps LOTR would be a better comparison?

[Daeion]

Krogan Face wrote...

Daeion wrote...
Ok, finally worked myself up to replying to this.

I most certainly do believe that it makes more sense to think that the Reapers first scouted and then either toed or more likely constructed onsite all the relays instead of just firing relays off in different directions
and hoping that they find a suitable location.  I’m not underestimating the distances, I understand how vast and long it would take, but to a race of immortal machines time doesn’t really matter.  I don’t think it’s a stretch at all to say we don’t know how advanced their FTL drives are.  If it would take us 1000 years to travel a distance via FTL and it only takes them 10 years, that’s a huge difference. No it’s not as ideal as relay travel but that doesn’t mean it’s not a possibility.  According to the books the ME universe doesn’t use subspace, instead there are a bunch of communications buoys that fire bursts of data from one to the next.  So we don’t know what the Reapers had in place when constructing the relays so it’s entirely possible that remote control was not viable because it would take to long for the signals to be received on both ends.  You’re also assuming that’s there’s no sort
of onsite setup, or activation that would be required of the relays. 

All relays are partnered with only 1 other relay, that’s why when you go anywhere on the galaxy map it has you hitting multiple systems before getting to your final destination.  It’s also mentioned that the alliance doesn’t have a large enough fleet to protect every colony at the same time so they post fleets at relay hubs where there is more then one relay and then they jump to the appropriate system when they get a distress call.  So that
is why I say that the reapers may realign the dark space relay to another one somewhere on the edge of our galaxy and hop there first, shut down the relay network, and then proceed to the citadel.

 

I believe you’re talking about the end scene of ME2.  I assume that we are seeing them emerge from dark space but I know a few others have said that it is simply the reapers emerging from hibernation.  To me that scene made it seem clear that they were simply coming the old fashioned way but we really won’t know until ME3 or if BW releases some sort of DLC or expac that leads into ME3.  Just to reiterate once agin, I’m not saying FTL would be the preferred meathod of transit, obviously not because we have the relay network, I’m just saying that it could be how they do decide to get here.

   I wont disagree with alot of the more obvious points u make, however on the establishment of the mass relay system [ CLICHE INCOMING! ]  lets just agree to disagree.   Hopefully in ME3 there will be a copious amount of codex on reaper development.

WTB Mass Effect encylopidias like there are for Star Trek and Star Wars.

[Multifarious Algorithm]

I'm just posting to say I enjoyed the hell out of ME2's story, and while I wouldn't want a direct clone of the format for ME3, the character missions, presentation of the main plot and integration of the side-missions were all exceptional: at no point did I feel like I did in ME1 where you've got this big "race against time" quest - if I want to build up my team, well that makes sense - if I find an anomaly, Cerberus would pay me for assisting mankinds interests. And the ending - oh wow the ending - I've played the ending a dozen or so times just to experience it.



You can't blindly advance a main plot without a developed universe, and ME2 gave us exactly that - a beautifully developed universe, building on what we got in ME1. The only big question for me, really, is how these characters we got in ME2 will be reflected in ME3. But I have utmost confidence that Bioware will deliver something exceptional.

[sedrikhcain]

Daeion wrote...

Oawa wrote...

Daeion wrote...

sedrikhcain wrote...

smudboy wrote...

FlintlockJazz wrote...

I understand where you're coming from, but personally I rather enjoyed the short stories.  They allowed the writers to try out vastly different styles within the same game, from the serial killer hunting in Samara's to the ethical dilemma of Mordin's tale.  Most games these days are built around a central plot, so Bioware's approach was quite refreshing for me.  Then again, I enjoy the idea of cruising around seeking my own adventures Firefly style. ../../../images/forum/emoticons/grin.png

So they should sacrifice the main plot for side missions?  Pathetic.

They could've applied that quality and creativity to the main plot, but they didn't.

They screwed it up big time, and all arguments point to "side missions are the plot" crap.  ME2 isn't even a bridge to ME3.  It's completely avoidable.

Actually, in most cases, the second part of any trilogy is far more character driven than story driven. You spend a lot of time introducing characters and establishing storylines in the first one. In part two, you expand the audience's understanding of character and and depth to the plot, rather than advancing it a great deal.

Even The Holy Trilogy -- Star Wars  -- follows this format.

Yeah but Star Wars didn't introduce an entirely new cast like of characters like ME2 did.

Star Wars wasn't originally planned as a trilogy either....So who really knows what Lucas would have done if he had preplanned it to be a trilogy.  Oh right.....just look at episode I-III.

Wasn't it technically supposed to be 3 trilogies, so 9 episodes in all and really the only thing that was supposed to happen in Return of the Jedi was the Rescue of Han?  Perhaps LOTR would be a better comparison?

Lucas has said in a video interview -- so I saw the words come out of his mouth -- that he wrote the entire story first, then realized he had too much to make a movie. So he pared it down into what became the original Star Wars and left the rest as a "back story" to that (and continuation of it, too, presumably). So what happens in Empire was already written before it was filmed. Who knows when it was decided that there would be exactly 3 movies in the original trilogy BUT clearly Empire was written as a middle portion of the story because it's the one that ends with a cliffhanger. And it it definitely character, not plot, driven -- until the "reveal" at the end. Same basic idea w/ME2, although there are some major differences: more new characters in ME2, not as dramatic a reveal. Empire drops a real bomb at the end, ME2 reveals new information but doesn't have an Empire- or KOTOR-like twist.

[ZennExile]

sedrikhcain wrote...

Daeion wrote...

Oawa wrote...

Daeion wrote...

sedrikhcain wrote...

smudboy wrote...

FlintlockJazz wrote...

I understand where you're coming from, but personally I rather enjoyed the short stories.  They allowed the writers to try out vastly different styles within the same game, from the serial killer hunting in Samara's to the ethical dilemma of Mordin's tale.  Most games these days are built around a central plot, so Bioware's approach was quite refreshing for me.  Then again, I enjoy the idea of cruising around seeking my own adventures Firefly style. ../../../images/forum/emoticons/grin.png

So they should sacrifice the main plot for side missions?  Pathetic.

They could've applied that quality and creativity to the main plot, but they didn't.

They screwed it up big time, and all arguments point to "side missions are the plot" crap.  ME2 isn't even a bridge to ME3.  It's completely avoidable.

Actually, in most cases, the second part of any trilogy is far more character driven than story driven. You spend a lot of time introducing characters and establishing storylines in the first one. In part two, you expand the audience's understanding of character and and depth to the plot, rather than advancing it a great deal.

Even The Holy Trilogy -- Star Wars  -- follows this format.

Yeah but Star Wars didn't introduce an entirely new cast like of characters like ME2 did.

Star Wars wasn't originally planned as a trilogy either....So who really knows what Lucas would have done if he had preplanned it to be a trilogy.  Oh right.....just look at episode I-III.

Wasn't it technically supposed to be 3 trilogies, so 9 episodes in all and really the only thing that was supposed to happen in Return of the Jedi was the Rescue of Han?  Perhaps LOTR would be a better comparison?

Lucas has said in a video interview -- so I saw the words come out of his mouth -- that he wrote the entire story first, then realized he had too much to make a movie. So he pared it down into what became the original Star Wars and left the rest as a "back story" to that (and continuation of it, too, presumably). So what happens in Empire was already written before it was filmed. Who knows when it was decided that there would be exactly 3 movies in the original trilogy BUT clearly Empire was written as a middle portion of the story because it's the one that ends with a cliffhanger. And it it definitely character, not plot, driven -- until the "reveal" at the end. Same basic idea w/ME2, although there are some major differences: more new characters in ME2, not as dramatic a reveal. Empire drops a real bomb at the end, ME2 reveals new information but doesn't have an Empire- or KOTOR-like twist.

You say clearly over and over like anyone but you makes this leap of logic (lack of logic...)  The whole idea that ESB is a character driven is completely negated by the fact that Lucas wrote the whole story first and then sectioned it off into film plots.

Character driven means the development of the character "IS" the plot.  The lack of logic starts and ends here.  Each of the SW movies was trimmed off an overarching and complete plot.  There is no point where character development even overshadows the main plot let alone become the plot.

Rather than argue and bully an irrational idea based in fantasy, how about you look up these concepts and do a bit of research?

[Oawa]

sedrikhcain wrote...

Daeion wrote...

Oawa wrote...

Daeion wrote...

sedrikhcain wrote...

smudboy wrote...

FlintlockJazz wrote...

I understand where you're coming from, but personally I rather enjoyed the short stories.  They allowed the writers to try out vastly different styles within the same game, from the serial killer hunting in Samara's to the ethical dilemma of Mordin's tale.  Most games these days are built around a central plot, so Bioware's approach was quite refreshing for me.  Then again, I enjoy the idea of cruising around seeking my own adventures Firefly style. ../../../images/forum/emoticons/grin.png

So they should sacrifice the main plot for side missions?  Pathetic.

They could've applied that quality and creativity to the main plot, but they didn't.

They screwed it up big time, and all arguments point to "side missions are the plot" crap.  ME2 isn't even a bridge to ME3.  It's completely avoidable.

Actually, in most cases, the second part of any trilogy is far more character driven than story driven. You spend a lot of time introducing characters and establishing storylines in the first one. In part two, you expand the audience's understanding of character and and depth to the plot, rather than advancing it a great deal.

Even The Holy Trilogy -- Star Wars  -- follows this format.

Yeah but Star Wars didn't introduce an entirely new cast like of characters like ME2 did.

Star Wars wasn't originally planned as a trilogy either....So who really knows what Lucas would have done if he had preplanned it to be a trilogy.  Oh right.....just look at episode I-III.

Wasn't it technically supposed to be 3 trilogies, so 9 episodes in all and really the only thing that was supposed to happen in Return of the Jedi was the Rescue of Han?  Perhaps LOTR would be a better comparison?

Lucas has said in a video interview -- so I saw the words come out of his mouth -- that he wrote the entire story first, then realized he had too much to make a movie. So he pared it down into what became the original Star Wars and left the rest as a "back story" to that (and continuation of it, too, presumably). So what happens in Empire was already written before it was filmed. Who knows when it was decided that there would be exactly 3 movies in the original trilogy BUT clearly Empire was written as a middle portion of the story because it's the one that ends with a cliffhanger. And it it definitely character, not plot, driven -- until the "reveal" at the end. Same basic idea w/ME2, although there are some major differences: more new characters in ME2, not as dramatic a reveal. Empire drops a real bomb at the end, ME2 reveals new information but doesn't have an Empire- or KOTOR-like twist.

You're possibly right, maybe I'm thinking of the same interview and just misunderstood.  From my understand, "A New Hope" which originally was just Star Wars.(The subtitle and chapter designation were added much later) was supposed to be the only one ever released.  Perhaps he did have the rest of the universe written.

I dunno...I just take everything Lucas says with a grain of salt.  I also remember Mark Hamil saying something not having any knowledge of the "I am your father line" from ESB until the moment it was said during that scene.  Who knows of that was supposed to be there, or just a last minute addition.  Wouldn't it be kind of funny if one of the most widely acknowledged plot twists of all time was a last minute "this counds cool" addition? hah.

[sedrikhcain]

Oawa wrote...

sedrikhcain wrote...

Daeion wrote...

Oawa wrote...

Daeion wrote...

sedrikhcain wrote...

smudboy wrote...

FlintlockJazz wrote...

I understand where you're coming from, but personally I rather enjoyed the short stories.  They allowed the writers to try out vastly different styles within the same game, from the serial killer hunting in Samara's to the ethical dilemma of Mordin's tale.  Most games these days are built around a central plot, so Bioware's approach was quite refreshing for me.  Then again, I enjoy the idea of cruising around seeking my own adventures Firefly style. ../../../images/forum/emoticons/grin.png

So they should sacrifice the main plot for side missions?  Pathetic.

They could've applied that quality and creativity to the main plot, but they didn't.

They screwed it up big time, and all arguments point to "side missions are the plot" crap.  ME2 isn't even a bridge to ME3.  It's completely avoidable.

Actually, in most cases, the second part of any trilogy is far more character driven than story driven. You spend a lot of time introducing characters and establishing storylines in the first one. In part two, you expand the audience's understanding of character and and depth to the plot, rather than advancing it a great deal.

Even The Holy Trilogy -- Star Wars  -- follows this format.

Yeah but Star Wars didn't introduce an entirely new cast like of characters like ME2 did.

Star Wars wasn't originally planned as a trilogy either....So who really knows what Lucas would have done if he had preplanned it to be a trilogy.  Oh right.....just look at episode I-III.

Wasn't it technically supposed to be 3 trilogies, so 9 episodes in all and really the only thing that was supposed to happen in Return of the Jedi was the Rescue of Han?  Perhaps LOTR would be a better comparison?

Lucas has said in a video interview -- so I saw the words come out of his mouth -- that he wrote the entire story first, then realized he had too much to make a movie. So he pared it down into what became the original Star Wars and left the rest as a "back story" to that (and continuation of it, too, presumably). So what happens in Empire was already written before it was filmed. Who knows when it was decided that there would be exactly 3 movies in the original trilogy BUT clearly Empire was written as a middle portion of the story because it's the one that ends with a cliffhanger. And it it definitely character, not plot, driven -- until the "reveal" at the end. Same basic idea w/ME2, although there are some major differences: more new characters in ME2, not as dramatic a reveal. Empire drops a real bomb at the end, ME2 reveals new information but doesn't have an Empire- or KOTOR-like twist.

You're possibly right, maybe I'm thinking of the same interview and just misunderstood.  From my understand, "A New Hope" which originally was just Star Wars.(The subtitle and chapter designation were added much later) was supposed to be the only one ever released.  Perhaps he did have the rest of the universe written.

I dunno...I just take everything Lucas says with a grain of salt.  I also remember Mark Hamil saying something not having any knowledge of the "I am your father line" from ESB until the moment it was said during that scene.  Who knows of that was supposed to be there, or just a last minute addition.  Wouldn't it be kind of funny if one of the most widely acknowledged plot twists of all time was a last minute "this counds cool" addition? hah.

Well, Episode IV, A New Hope was a part of the star wars "crawl" at the beginning long before there was a second set of movies. I believe it was there from the beginning (can someone else confirm this)?

At any rate, I don't know how much of the specifics Lucas had fleshed out before he went to filming the remaining pictures but I believe him when he says he wrote the basic story complete beforehand. "Darth Vader" even roughly translates into "Dark Father". That wasn't an add-on. The holes in the script were for security.

about taking GL's words w/a grain of salt, in general, i think that's a good idea. The amount of stuff he's blessed as "canon" in recent years in laughable.