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Please Bioware stick with the Main Plot


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#151
SurfaceBeneath

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wolfstanus wrote...

The Definition of a Role-Playing Game!

Despite the seemingly harmless demeanor of the subject, the definition of an RPG has proved to be quite controversial in my experience. I've gotten into many a scuffle online (with good friends, no less) defending my views on the matter, and I find that with the recent submission about "The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time - Worst RPG of All Time?" that I simply must make it clear to those delusional gamers as to what an RPG really is.

First off, to wholly define an RPG I find it crucial to define the other categories of games that are often confused with RPGs. I will not include Sports, Shooter, Fighting, or Puzzle, since generally no one in their right mind thinks that Madden 98, Gradius, or Street Fighter II are in any way related to an RPG (unless of course they've suffered severe head injuries in the past), and although many RPGs have complex puzzles to solve, it is difficult to confuse a "Puzzle" game with an RPG that has puzzles in it. The categories I will discuss include Adventure, Strategy, and Action. I'm sure most hard-core RPGers are familiar with the categorical combination that some game magazines use, such as Adventure/RPG, Strategy/RPG and Action/RPG. There is no fuzzy logic to this. It's because many people find it hard to distinguish between the two, so to make it easier people have "fused" together certain categories with RPG. This, however, just makes my argument more difficult to defend. In response to this category fusion, gamers eventually developed the unnofficial category, True RPG, to further imply what an RPG truly is. Again, most hard-core RPGers will be familiar with this term. I find it silly. If one game is a True RPG and another game is just an RPG, then wouldn't the RPG, in essence, be a False RPG? Then, wouldn't a False RPG technically not be an RPG at all? To undo all this categorical confusion, I first have to describe each category.

What is an Action game? An Action game is any game where the primary method of attack/defense/other movement of a character is through an action, directly transferred through a game controller in real-time. What does this confusing definition mean? Well, it means that when you press a button on the controller, an action is immediately carried out, without delay. That's pretty general, and you may think that describes 90% of all video games, but this is not so. Most other categories are merely extensions of the Action category. For instance, a Fighting game adds the element of two simultaneous opponents performing exactly what the definition of an Action game implies. Sometimes the term "Action" is fused with "Platform," which merely represents the free, real-time movement of an action game. Some hard-core examples of Action games include Super Mario Bros., Ninja Gaiden, and Strider.

What is an Adventure game? An Adventure game is any Action game that has multiple weapons/items that are found in various places of the game, and that allows you to return to any area of the game at any time. Again, this is an extension of an Action game. Hard-core examples include Landstalker, Popful Mail, and YES, Zelda.

What is a Strategy game? A Strategy game is a game through which commands are given to multiple characters in multiple locations on a grid-based (visible or not visible) map through which certain scenarios/campaigns are carried out. Grid-based is really a very basic term, since many strategy games don't have grids at all (Ogre Battle, Herzog Zwei). Also, most battles are 100% (or very near that) automated. This category, awkwardly, is not really an extension of an Action game, due to the menu-driven commands, which is one of the reasons it is confused with RPGs. Hard-core examples include Herzog Zwei, Langrisser, and Dragon Force.

There. Now that you have an idea of the categories surrounding Role Playing Games, it's time to define an RPG.

What is a Role Playing Game? Personally, I like to define a Role Playing Game as a game that MUST, ABSOLUTELY have three elements. One is a statistical setup for characters that describe certain skills/aspects of that character. Two, it must have some method of increasing and strengthening those statistics (usually but not necessarily by way of the experience/level system). Three, it must have a menu-driven combat system that utilizes the skills/aspects of the characters. Given there are other elements of RPGs that I'll leave out because of their obvious nature, these are the elements that are required for a game to be labeled RPG.

Now, many people will disagree with that definition, so here I defend my opinion. Let's take RPGs way back in the day when Dungeons and Dragons ultimately created the Role Playing Game genre. Point a) there was statistical information for each character in the game describing skills/aspects of the character. Point B) each of those statistics could grow, expand, and strengthen. Point c) one would choose a skill, use and roll a die or dice to determine the success of the skill, and would then carry out the skill. You don't often see D&D players physically stabbing each other in the chin with their new "Broadsword," which would make it an "Action" game. Now, let's compare the original definition with the modern-day video RPG experience. To do this, let's take a common, well-known RPG and use it as a benchmark. Shoot me for using Final Fantasy VII. Now, in Final Fantasy VII each character has their own statistical information describing skills/aspects of the character. Hmmmmmm, sounds very similar to point a. In Final Fantasy VII one could strengthen their characters' abilities. Wow, that sounds familiar. In Final Fantasy VII, one chooses a skill in combat, a random number generator (we'll call it "advanced dice") determines the success of the skill, and finally the skill is carried out. Therefore, Final Fantasy VII is an RPG. Furthermore, my definition stands.

Again, Final Fantasy VII has little to no controversy about whether or not it's an RPG. Now we get into the more difficult distinguishments. First of all, before I go on, never look on the box of a categorically controversial game to determine its true category. Most game companies (including Working Designs) don't have a clue as to how to label their games, or label it falsely due to marketing reasons. Believe me, Alundra is NOT an Action/RPG.

Now, on to dangerous ground. To the delusional Brendan McGrath who submitted the "The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time - Worst RPG of All Time?" editorial, Zelda 64 is NOT an RPG, no way no how. The Zelda series almost completely defines what an *Adventure* game is today. There are only trivial RPG elements in any of the Zelda games, and certainly not enough to confuse it with an RPG, which is why I am so surprised and distraught to hear that so many people think it is an RPG. It is NOT. The extent of the RPG elements in the series goes to the amount of heart containers you have in the beginning of the game, to the amount of heart containers you have at the end of the game, which fits into the first and second elements of an RPG. Well, that's one statistic. Most "True" RPGs have up to 20 or 30 per character. On another note, Zelda doesn't have a menu-driven combat system. That rules it out completely.

While we're on the topic of Adventure games, I may as well go ahead and tell you why one of the most categorically controversial games in existence is indeed an Adventure game, and NOT an RPG. It's made by Squaresoft, for Super Nintendo, and features three playable characters. No, not Chrono Trigger. Still don't know what I'm talking about? That's right, I'm talking about Secret of Mana. Let's break it apart and take a look at it. Yes, it has character statistics and skills, and yes you can strengthen these skills, but does it have a menu driven combat system? Nope. It's an Adventure game. Probably the reason so many people confuse this with an RPG is because it's damn close to one, and probably the closest any adventure game will ever come to an RPG, which is why it's such a special game. People see HP and MP and assume it's an RPG. Well, then wouldn't Ninja Gaiden technically be an RPG? It has HP; it's just not displayed in numbers. The same holds true for Xardion, for Super NES, and that even allows for growth of HP and skills. Is that an RPG as well? I think not. Also, people see magic and assume that the game is an RPG. Well, then wouldn't Shinobi be an RPG? There's magic in that. The one thing that holds SoM so close to being an RPG is the fact that you can select magic and select which enemy to target, which is, I dare say, menu-driven. However, remember how weapons are used in the game: one button, one action, real-time, no delay. That's crucial to combat in the game, and that's not menu-driven. Secret of Mana is NOT an RPG.

Similarly, Popful Mail, Alundra, Zelda, Magic Knight Rayearth, Lagoon, and even Metroid are ALL Adventure games and NOT RPGs. Remember, though, that there are fusion categories. It's pretty safe to say that Secret of Mana is an Adventure/RPG, because it has many RPG elements. I would not place games like Alundra or Zelda in this category though. Games like Popful Mail and Lagoon can even be placed in the Action/RPG category because it contains elements from both Action games and RPGs (although this is basically the same thing as an Adventure game), but this is pushing it and is one of the reasons I don't like the fusion categories. Also, remember that a complex storyline is NOT a requirement of an RPG. While it may be a requirement of a GOOD RPG, it's not a requirement of an RPG. We take Dragon Warrior as an example. We take Alundra as a counter-example. Simply because it has such a complex storyline, doesn't make it an RPG.

I've pretty much covered the Action and Adventure controversies. Now on to Strategy. For this we take the game Ogre Battle to begin with. It has statistics and statistic growth, but how far can we go to say that it has menu driven combat? Sure, you select a character here and there and tell it where to go, but what happens when battle ensues? The game switches to another scene where the entire battle is automated. You don't choose "fight/magic/defend" for each individual character as is done in menu-driven combat systems. Instead you choose an overall strategy for the group in battle, hence the name "Strategy." Again the illusion of having HP and MP gives the player a false pretense that this game is an RPG. It is not. We could go as far as calling it a Strategy/RPG, but the game would never cross the line. Again, I highly dislike the fusion categories as they just complicate things. We could call Mutant League Hockey a Sports/Action game, but we don't! Why do it for games with RPG elements when it STILL does not meet the full standards of a True RPG?

There are always exceptions to the rule. The following games are games that are considered to be what they are due to elements from one category surpassing elements from another category.

Final Fantasy Tactics. Here's another extremely close call, and yip yip ho wow it's made by Square again. Stats and Stat growth? Yes. Menu-driven combat? Well.....yeah. You choose to attack, cast spells, use items, and just about every other requirement of a menu-driven combat system. Why is it STILL not an RPG? It's an exception to the rule. Because the game takes place on a grid, where placement and tactics are all vital to success in the battle system, it favors the Strategy category instead of the RPG category. Any game where placement is absolutely vital to the gameplay I immediately label a Strategy game. Now, why isn't the Lunar series Strategy then? Yes, there is character placement in the battle scenes, but three things lean the game heavily towards an RPG (hell, I wouldn't even think twice about labeling it otherwise). One, the battles are in separate scenes. Two, you can't directly position characters. Three, position really isn't all that vital to the overall gameplay. Now, what about the Shining Force series? Same as with FFT. Placement is directly accessed and is vital to successful battles.

Tales of Destiny. Now I've never actually played this game so I'm basing my opinion solely on the battle scenes from Tales of Phantasia, its prequel. Character stats and growth? Yes. Menu-driven combat? Nope. Why, then, is this most definitely an RPG? Well, it's an exception to the rule. Due to the fact that the battle scenes appear separately from the movement scenes, and that there is limited control of the character due to limited skills (such as in most RPGs), the RPG elements severely outweigh the Action elements.

I'm sure there are many other games of controversy out there, but I've covered some of the more important ones. I hope I've given some of you a second thought about your opinions as to what a True RPG really is. Once you're clear as to what that is, then anything else would be a False RPG, and hence not an RPG at all. RPG elements can be found most everywhere these days, but that doesn't make anything a solid RPG, and just because you "Role Play" a character also doesn't make it an RPG. In order for an RPG to exist, it must contain ALL of the major 3 elements, and at least some of the lesser elements (story, characterization, magic, free-roaming worlds, etc. etc. etc.). None of this is inscribed in the Great Book of RPGs, or the Gamer's Guru, or anything like that. It's important that you realize that this is my opinion of how RPGs have been defined based on their history to date. This is my viewpoint based on my experiences with the genre. I've played a hell of a lot of games, RPGs and not, and I believe my opinion is a strong one, and I'll defend it till the end.


EDIT: Ok, nevermind. Good read

Modifié par SurfaceBeneath, 25 février 2010 - 12:52 .


#152
Sleepicub09

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ZennExile wrote...

wolfstanus wrote...

The Definition of a Role-Playing Game!

Blah blah blah.  I'm not gonna make a point even if you do read this blah blah ****ity blah


That was un called for.

agreed  not cool wolfstanus

#153
wolfstanus

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ZennExile wrote...

wolfstanus wrote...

The Definition of a Role-Playing Game!

Blah blah blah.  I'm not gonna make a point even if you do read this blah blah ****ity blah


That was un called for.



No I just wanted to point somthing out on what a RPG actually is... Also you just proved yourself to be nothing but a troll and not having anything consrtuctive to say. other than insults.

#154
The Mythical Magician

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Topic change!!

#155
MrBeardface

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I've been playing RPGs since before the revival brought by Baldur's Gate 1, in the great and terrible days of Might & Magic games and such. Since then I bought pretty much every major western RPG as it released. Hell, I'm one of those geeks of geeks who play classic pen & paper roleplaying games, did so for the last 14 years. So yeah, I would say I'm an RPG fan.



And as fellow RPG fan, I call rubbish on your post[s], RPGs are *not* about statistics and inventory expanded to the point where you need a spreadsheet to understand it all. Those are merely *tools*. That's why many Dungeon Masters in P&P RPGs do away with dice altogether - they are a crutch, a necessary evil rather than some core value of the game.



Streamlining the mechanics and placing more impact on the actualy gameplay and storytelling is an excellent choice. It may not appeal to everybody, of course. You're perfectly welcome to think ME2 is rubbish, while I wrap up my 3rd playthrough. However, don't go in here with a superior attitude and presuming to speak for RPG fans and think everybody will let that crap slide.

#156
Sleepicub09

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The Mythical Magician wrote...

Topic change!!

ahhh now I can agree with you

#157
wolfstanus

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Sleepicub09 wrote...

ZennExile wrote...

wolfstanus wrote...

The Definition of a Role-Playing Game!

Blah blah blah.  I'm not gonna make a point even if you do read this blah blah ****ity blah


That was un called for.

agreed  not cool wolfstanus


What was not cool to much text? To much reading?

#158
sedrikhcain

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ZennExile wrote...

sedrikhcain wrote...

The Mythical Magician wrote...

I believe why ME2 failed for a good portion of us is because of Bioware's focus on the mainstream crowd though business wise it is prefect for making quick money but overall you guys lost some of your die hard fans on this switch of focus. I'm a fan of you guys and I love your work but ME2 disappointed me and many others. I hope on your next project you guys focus on giving your die hard fans a great game than trying to please every crowd out there.

ME2 is a great game but its not as great as its predecessor for the fact that the focus was different.
<_<


Define "a good portion of us".


At least 2.3 million return customers.


2.3 million people who bought mass effect 1 and returned for ME2 felt the game "failed" them?

Hello in there ZennExile, tell us, what color is the sky in your world?

#159
ZennExile

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Sleepicub09 wrote...

ZennExile wrote...

sedrikhcain wrote...

 ME3 will be FULL of extraneous crap you can find?


That would be awesome.  One of the biggest disparities between an RPG and what ME2 trys to be is, there is nothing hidden in ME2.  It's all laid out for you on a silver platter like if it wasn't you'd be too stupid to find it on yer own.

Nobody wants useless lewts dropping out of the crap cannon of every damn thing we see but, dudes with guns should drop them on the ground and sometimes there should be something neat in those ****ing crates.  Just stuff to find would make ME2 1000 times more RPG.  Anything to find.  Even if it's completely useless.

RPGs thrive on Exploration and discovery.  Without those two things you can't really call any game an RPG.

I agree on finding things I do wish they were more hidden, but looting is only an element that most games uses it does not make an rpg any less of an rpg but it helps its replayability 


It's more than just RPG elements that cover looting though.  Looting is a heavily used shooter mechanic as well.  For it not to be in ME2 in any form doesn't make sense to the shooter fans or the RPG fans.  Every popular shooter the bad guys drop their guns and you can pick them up and use them.  Every popular RPG (from J to MMO) uses a similar loot mechanic.  It offers immersion and function and in the case of RPGs in particilar the ability to use lewt in deeper more complex systems like missions, crafting, customization, trohpy hunting, etc...

When someone says loot or talks about loot all of those things should come to mind.  Not just useless crap piled up on the ground waiting to clog your inventory.

#160
Sleepicub09

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wolfstanus wrote...

Sleepicub09 wrote...

ZennExile wrote...

wolfstanus wrote...

The Definition of a Role-Playing Game!

Blah blah blah.  I'm not gonna make a point even if you do read this blah blah ****ity blah


That was un called for.

agreed  not cool wolfstanus


What was not cool to much text? To much reading?

oh nothing nvm i thought you were dissing rpg's

#161
ZennExile

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sedrikhcain wrote...

ZennExile wrote...

sedrikhcain wrote...

The Mythical Magician wrote...

I believe why ME2 failed for a good portion of us is because of Bioware's focus on the mainstream crowd though business wise it is prefect for making quick money but overall you guys lost some of your die hard fans on this switch of focus. I'm a fan of you guys and I love your work but ME2 disappointed me and many others. I hope on your next project you guys focus on giving your die hard fans a great game than trying to please every crowd out there.

ME2 is a great game but its not as great as its predecessor for the fact that the focus was different.
<_<


Define "a good portion of us".


At least 2.3 million return customers.


2.3 million people who bought mass effect 1 and returned for ME2 felt the game "failed" them?

Hello in there ZennExile, tell us, what color is the sky in your world?


Clear ******.  Posted Image

#162
The Mythical Magician

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The Mythical Magician wrote...

EDITED: I believe why ME2 failed for a good portion of us is because of Bioware's focus on the mainstream crowd though business wise it is prefect for making quick money but overall you guys lost the main plot on this switch of focus. I'm a fan of you guys and I love your work but ME2 disappointed me and most likely many others. I hope on your next project you guys focus on more on the story of a game than trying to please every crowd out there.

ME2 is a great game but its not as great as its predecessor for the fact that the focus was different which Imo sacrificed the main plot and the immersion.
<_<



#163
ZennExile

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wolfstanus wrote...

Sleepicub09 wrote...

ZennExile wrote...

wolfstanus wrote...

The Definition of a Role-Playing Game!

Blah blah blah.  I'm not gonna make a point even if you do read this blah blah ****ity blah


That was un called for.

agreed  not cool wolfstanus


What was not cool to much text? To much reading?


you never made a damn point....?

You need to learn to let the summary tell the tale...

#164
wolfstanus

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Sleepicub09 wrote...

wolfstanus wrote...

Sleepicub09 wrote...

ZennExile wrote...

wolfstanus wrote...

The Definition of a Role-Playing Game!

Blah blah blah.  I'm not gonna make a point even if you do read this blah blah ****ity blah


That was un called for.

agreed  not cool wolfstanus


What was not cool to much text? To much reading?

oh nothing nvm i thought you were dissing rpg's

Would never do that I love them to much...

#165
SurfaceBeneath

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wolfstanus wrote...

Sleepicub09 wrote...

ZennExile wrote...

wolfstanus wrote...

The Definition of a Role-Playing Game!

Blah blah blah.  I'm not gonna make a point even if you do read this blah blah ****ity blah


That was un called for.

agreed  not cool wolfstanus


What was not cool to much text? To much reading?


I would actually say too old and almost entirely centered on console (and by extension) JRPGs.

I mean, it was interesting, but it just doesn't feel like it fits.

#166
ZennExile

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The Mythical Magician wrote...

The Mythical Magician wrote...

EDITED: I believe why ME2 failed for a good portion of us is because of Bioware's focus on the mainstream crowd though business wise it is prefect for making quick money but overall you guys lost the main plot on this switch of focus. I'm a fan of you guys and I love your work but ME2 disappointed me and most likely many others. I hope on your next project you guys focus on more on the story of a game than trying to please every crowd out there.

ME2 is a great game but its not as great as its predecessor for the fact that the focus was different which Imo sacrificed the main plot and the immersion.
<_<


Dude don't quote yerself that's like peeing on a high voltage power box.  Sure yer not grounded at the moment but is it really worth the chance?

#167
wolfstanus

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ZennExile wrote...

wolfstanus wrote...

Sleepicub09 wrote...

ZennExile wrote...

wolfstanus wrote...

The Definition of a Role-Playing Game!

Blah blah blah.  I'm not gonna make a point even if you do read this blah blah ****ity blah


That was un called for.

agreed  not cool wolfstanus


What was not cool to much text? To much reading?


you never made a damn point....?

You need to learn to let the summary tell the tale...


Read it you may learn something.

#168
Balerion84

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The Mythical Magician wrote...

Topic change!!

Not fair.

So you didn't like the story of ME2. But that doesn't mean they didn't stick with the main plot. It's still about the Reapers and all that stuff.


MrBeardface wrote...

I've been playing RPGs since before the revival brought by Baldur's Gate 1, in the great and terrible days of Might & Magic games and such. .

Might & Magic. Brings back memories.

#169
superimposed

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ZennExile wrote...

superimposed wrote...

Responding to a troll in anyway makes you lose. If you want to 'troll a troll' just don't respond. Either they'll give up or get progressively more aggressive until they put their foot in it and make an e-fool of themselves.

As for the level system, I preferred ME2 because it required you to actually have a squad with different talents. In ME1 you basically made your own Shep Jesus and the other two were just for achievements.
Lift and any other class was win.


I have a feeling your day-to-day is tragic...


Was that supposed to relate to what I wrote? I mean, you didn't even manage to get it wrong.

#170
superimposed

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Balerion84 wrote...

The Mythical Magician wrote...

Topic change!!

Not fair.

So you didn't like the story of ME2. But that doesn't mean they didn't stick with the main plot. It's still about the Reapers and all that stuff.


MrBeardface wrote...

I've been playing RPGs since before the revival brought by Baldur's Gate 1, in the great and terrible days of Might & Magic games and such. .

Might & Magic. Brings back memories.


Brings back memories of giving everyone bows and running like a little girl from everything.
I was like eight when I played them.

#171
superimposed

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Double post?

Modifié par superimposed, 25 février 2010 - 01:01 .


#172
The Mythical Magician

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Sorry about the confusion of what I was trying to say...

I'm not very good at choosing my right words and explaining how I feel.

#173
sedrikhcain

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flem1 wrote...

sedrikhcain wrote...

How much you want to bet ME3 will be FULL of extraneous crap you can find? on dead bodies, in foot lockers, over behind shepard's fish tank; I'm telling you, it's going to be everywhere -- and most of it will be totally superfluous but it'll make some people ridiculously happy, regardless of what else is in the game.

I hope not -- the game DID get ridiculously high scores, not least because of the loot minigame removal (thank god).

The Diablo influence is really, really dumb for Bio's end of the genre.



flem1, I doubt this will actually happen. My response was tongue-in-cheek. But given BW's penchant for being responsive to fan complaints, I do think we'll see a lot more loot in ME3 (not ridiculous amounts, though) because it's obviously something a lot of people miss (despite the fact that the VAST majority of the loot you came across in ME1 was worthless).

#174
MrBeardface

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I'm getting a feeling that people like ZennExile and the op ARE hardcore fans - of WoW and Diablo. I don't see that addiction-driven, mercenary approach to RPGs as an integral, or even good, part of the genre so I'm glad to see it gone in ME2. Still quite enjoying it in DA:O, but I surprised myself but not *loving* that game - guess I'm ready to move on from classic RPGs :P

#175
The Mythical Magician

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ZennExile wrote...

The Mythical Magician wrote...

The Mythical Magician wrote...

EDITED: I believe why ME2 failed for a good portion of us is because of Bioware's focus on the mainstream crowd though business wise it is prefect for making quick money but overall you guys lost the main plot on this switch of focus. I'm a fan of you guys and I love your work but ME2 disappointed me and most likely many others. I hope on your next project you guys focus on more on the story of a game than trying to please every crowd out there.

ME2 is a great game but its not as great as its predecessor for the fact that the focus was different which Imo sacrificed the main plot and the immersion.
<_<


Dude don't quote yerself that's like peeing on a high voltage power box.  Sure yer not grounded at the moment but is it really worth the chance?

Did that so the current posters can see it just in case they won't go to the first page.