117 réponses à ce sujet

[nYshak]

CybAnt1 wrote...

I know Dragon Age doesn't have an alignment system, like D & D, but if it did ... many people compare Morrigan to Viconia but I don't really see it.

Viconia was Chaotic Evil ... Morrigan, if I were to give her a D & D alignment ... is pretty much True Neutral. If you examine her responses, it's not that she wants to harm or hurt people, but she doesn't see much point in pointless do-goodery. She hates the Chantry, templars, etc. for their self-righteousness and foolish zealotry and clear lust for power (over mages) ... not because she's evil.

Make that Chaotic Neutral or Neutral Evil and I'll agree. True Neutral in the D&D Universe normally implies a motivation to uphold a natural balance between good and evil forces. The best example (and the one D&D often delivers) is a druid who at first helps out humans versus some werewolves or any other danger. But, as soon as the humans start to wipe out the werewolves completely the druid would switch sides. Thats not Morrigan. Morrigan values power without restraint, or lets say, without limitations. The latter is the reason why so many people see her as evil. But I would argue that Morrigan would have no problem with doing good things as long as there's something in for her. Of course that does not make her a saint, but she's not about to drown the world in darkspawn blood.

[blademaster7]

I have saves before the ritual and during the Denerim speech. If anyone wants a specific dialogue let me know. i'll check it up.

[krylo]

nYshak wrote...

CybAnt1 wrote...

I know Dragon Age doesn't have an alignment system, like D & D, but if it did ... many people compare Morrigan to Viconia but I don't really see it.

Viconia was Chaotic Evil ... Morrigan, if I were to give her a D & D alignment ... is pretty much True Neutral. If you examine her responses, it's not that she wants to harm or hurt people, but she doesn't see much point in pointless do-goodery. She hates the Chantry, templars, etc. for their self-righteousness and foolish zealotry and clear lust for power (over mages) ... not because she's evil.

Make that Chaotic Neutral or Neutral Evil and I'll agree. True Neutral in the D&D Universe normally implies a motivation to uphold a natural balance between good and evil forces. The best example (and the one D&D often delivers) is a druid who at first helps out humans versus some werewolves or any other danger. But, as soon as the humans start to wipe out the werewolves completely the druid would switch sides. Thats not Morrigan. Morrigan values power without restraint, or lets say, without limitations. The latter is the reason why so many people see her as evil. But I would argue that Morrigan would have no problem with doing good things as long as there's something in for her. Of course that does not make her a saint, but she's not about to drown the world in darkspawn blood.

Not in so much.

Neutral, "Undecided"
A neutral character does what seems to be a good idea. She doesn’t feel strongly one way or the other when it comes to good vs. evil or law vs. chaos. Most neutral characters exhibit a lack of conviction or bias rather than a commitment to neutrality. Such a character thinks of good as better than evil—after all, she would rather have good neighbors and rulers than evil ones. Still, she’s not personally committed to upholding good in any abstract or universal way.

Some neutral characters, on the other hand, commit themselves philosophically to neutrality. They see good, evil, law, and chaos as prejudices and dangerous extremes. They advocate the middle way of neutrality as the best, most balanced road in the long run.


Neutral is the best alignment you can be because it means you act naturally, without prejudice or compulsion.

Though, yes, Chaotic Neutral probably fits better:

Chaotic Neutral, "Free Spirit"
A chaotic neutral character follows his whims. He is an individualist first and last. He values his own liberty but doesn’t strive to protect others’ freedom. He avoids authority, resents restrictions, and challenges traditions. A chaotic neutral character does not intentionally disrupt organizations as part of a campaign of anarchy. To do so, he would have to be motivated either by good (and a desire to liberate others) or evil (and a desire to make those different from himself suffer). A chaotic neutral character may be unpredictable, but his behavior is not totally random. He is not as likely to jump off a bridge as to cross it.


Chaotic neutral is the best alignment you can be because it represents true freedom from both society’s restrictions and a do-gooder’s zeal.

Modifié par krylo, 04 mars 2010 - 01:14 .

[CybAnt1]

Morrigan values power without restraint, or lets say, without limitations. The latter is the reason why so many people see her as evil. 

But on the other hand - and again we can discuss what's going on with the Dark Ritual as we are all "in the dark" about what it all really meant or will mean at this point - she is unlike, say, Avernus, or Uldred (or Zathrian, or Flemeth?), in that there never really is a moment where she sacrifices others in her quest for power. She doesn't seem to relish hurting people in order to do so. On the other hand, yes, does she resent the existence of mages "chained" by the Chantry & the Templars? Yes. She is a wild/free spirit, for sure. But frankly I'm not so sure I like the status quo of Ferelden society either, esp. this way they seem to take many mages and turn them into robot zombie slaves, excuse me, "tranquils", or are very quick to exercise genocide, excuse me, "annulment". 

The bottom line is yes she keeps up the cold ice queen/**** goddess thing as a front, but there are definitely moments where emotional warmth and vulnerability slips through, esp. if you look at the facial expressions. She cares about you, even if you don't romance her. Like people say, if you're female, at one point she'll call you her sister. But you could argue her caring about you is just part of "you're part of her path to power" worldview. However, I would also argue there are moments where she lets slip she cares about others, too, including people who don't seem to fit into any such scheme. 

No, I just don't think she's evil. Chaotic Neutral -- OK -- that sounds about right. 

[Sresla]

Sadly, I thought this was one of those, "Fill in the blanks" type posts, and had my answer all ready but since this is a serious discussion, I will not litter it with my sarcasm (too much).

[Marik333]

Does she ever actually say "I love you"? The closest I've gotten to that was a "My love", and a couple references to an entanglement, but no actual confession where she literally says those 3 words.

[ejoslin]

Marik333 wrote...

Does she ever actually say "I love you"? The closest I've gotten to that was a "My love", and a couple references to an entanglement, but no actual confession where she literally says those 3 words.

Does it matter?  I know with the two romance-able males, one says "I love you," the other does not ever, but in both cases, their feelings are very VERY clear.  

[Marik333]

ejoslin wrote...

Marik333 wrote...

Does she ever actually say "I love you"? The closest I've gotten to that was a "My love", and a couple references to an entanglement, but no actual confession where she literally says those 3 words.

Does it matter?  I know with the two romance-able males, one says "I love you," the other does not ever, but in both cases, their feelings are very VERY clear.  

Technically, it does matter. Because if she never says it, then it technically wasn't the hardest thing she's ever said. 

Really, though, no, it doesn't. I was just curious.

[Lenimph]

Zy-El wrote...

One of the dialogues I got into Morrigan with was quite interesting.  She mentioned how "shameful" it was that me and "that girl" were involved in a relationship and what I could possibly see in her.  And there must be some "extra reward" to being with her.  I answered "yes, there certainly is" to which Morrigan stammered a bit "I - I see."  I found that quite amusing.  I should have chosen the option "Feeling jealous?" but didn't want to tick her off since I already knew Morrigan doesn't like girls (in that way).

Oh I love that part.  I picked the "you have no idea...'" option and she was "oh" *raises eyebrow.
Of course after that i went back to my last save and also picked the jealous one... I don't remember what she said but it wasnt that memorable. she doesnt get mad though, I think (don't trust my memory) that she says she is... but sarcastically of course.

[Reaverwind]

blademaster7 wrote...

Helios969 wrote...

Not sure I understand.  Are you upset that Morrigan left you, or that she used you to get what she wanted?  In the latter case, depending on the dialogue thread you travel, she say she is grateful for the friendship and a bit remorseful that she has to leave despite you rejecting the ritual.

Well, however you feel is right.  Morrigan seems to be the type of character players either love or hate.

If I was reading a book or watching a movie then I'd definitely hate her. From a roleplaying perspective, however, I wouldn't say that. My character is dissapointed in her. He's a broken man with no dignity, but I wouldn't imagine him hating her.

If she doesn't want commitment then fine, no relationship is perfect and I'm certainly not forcing her to stay. But saying straight to your face that "I'm leaving you because I have no further use for you" is a direct kick to the balls.

And she even had the nerve to suggest Alistair as the alternative. I was really frustrated at first but after going through that part with different characters I realized that the same dialogue occurs no matter what, so I don't blame Morrigan, I blame the writers for making my Warden play completely out of character and making him look like an idiot. It just happens to be a plot-device. For any other type of playthrough I would consider it a brilliant twist, but for the current one I wouldn't say the same. It was insulting.

So basically what I'm trying to say is that If anyone deserves sympathy, that is my character and not Morrigan.

I agree with you there - as good as the writers are, sometimes the dialogue options defy belief. It gets frustrating at times when you see options which force ooc play, options that lead to responses that don't fit the conversation flow, and options that make you wonder if they weren't written by a 6-year old. (See Wynne dialogues.)

[nYshak]

Neutral, "Undecided"
A neutral character does what seems to be a good idea. She doesn’t feel strongly one way or the other when it comes to good vs. evil or law vs. chaos. Most neutral characters exhibit a lack of conviction or bias rather than a commitment to neutrality. Such a character thinks of good as better than evil—after all, she would rather have good neighbors and rulers than evil ones. Still, she’s not personally committed to upholding good in any abstract or universal way.

Some neutral characters, on the other hand, commit themselves philosophically to neutrality. They see good, evil, law, and chaos as prejudices and dangerous extremes. They advocate the middle way of neutrality as the best, most balanced road in the long run.

That is from 3rd or 4th edition right? "True Neutral" was, as far as I remember, the term used in the 2nd edition (and maybe the first). I referred to that.

Modifié par nYshak, 04 mars 2010 - 07:35 .

[krylo]

nYshak wrote...

Neutral, "Undecided"
A neutral character does what seems to be a good idea. She doesn’t feel strongly one way or the other when it comes to good vs. evil or law vs. chaos. Most neutral characters exhibit a lack of conviction or bias rather than a commitment to neutrality. Such a character thinks of good as better than evil—after all, she would rather have good neighbors and rulers than evil ones. Still, she’s not personally committed to upholding good in any abstract or universal way.

Some neutral characters, on the other hand, commit themselves philosophically to neutrality. They see good, evil, law, and chaos as prejudices and dangerous extremes. They advocate the middle way of neutrality as the best, most balanced road in the long run.

That is from 3rd or 4th edition right? "True Neutral" was, as far as I remember, the term used in the 2nd edition (and maybe the first). I referred to that.

Third, yes.

[Archereon]

Why does everyone assume Morrigan's baby is going to be inherently evil?



For all we know, it could be a protagonist, even the PC (though that'd be unlikely since you'd be forced into being a half dwarf or a human) for DA2...

[Barbarossa2010]

blademaster7 wrote...

But saying straight to your face that "I'm leaving you because I have no further use for you" is a direct kick to the balls.

And she even had the nerve to suggest Alistair as the alternative. I was really frustrated at first but after going through that part with different characters I realized that the same dialogue occurs no matter what, so I don't blame Morrigan, I blame the writers for making my Warden play completely out of character and making him look like an idiot. It just happens to be a plot-device. For any other type of playthrough I would consider it a brilliant twist, but for the current one I wouldn't say the same. It was insulting.

So basically what I'm trying to say is that If anyone deserves sympathy, that is my character and not Morrigan.

Amen bro.  Couldn't have said it any better myself.   Our Wardens deserve the sympathy not Morrigan.

Literally my Warden was so far out of character during the Ritual dialogue that I'll avoid plot dependent romances from here on out.  BW's idea of romance and a good gaming experience is just not in line with mine.  Maybe it's just me, but I really don't think so.  After reflection, I won't be taking BW romances very serious from here on out.  They are a side show that distracts and adds little to the game, and only end up like the worst relationships I ever been in.  No thanks. 

The DR with a romanced Morrigan was just bizarre and so contrived that it really left a bad taste.  I had to go and off my second Warden to feel like I hadn't wasted my time playing my first RPG and regain some semblance of dignity.  Of course for me the only epic (and yes romantic) ending was the ultimate sacrifice.  I also really wanted to see a Thedas as formed by the decisions of my sacrificial Warden (and a denied Morrigan) from the perspective of another like-minded Warden.  Now the US appears at present to be the throw away option for future installments of the franchise.  So I get to be a double loser!!!!!!!!!!!! Thanks BW!   Ha, at least this is in line with the delight you seem to take in sticking it to certain fan bases. 

I understand Morrigan was the plot bridge to a sequel, but the heavy handed nature of the Ritual was hardly any different whether you were her friend, neutral to her or her lover.  It was just bizarre.  It wasn't so much a problem with Morrigan as the writers.  One way or the other, the Dark Ritual would happen or your Warden's gone for good.  Letting her sleep with another was just no option as her lover (unless you're an indifferent personality and good with that sort of thing of course).  My Warden's lover it turned out was so "in love" she would even sleep with Loghain to get what she wanted.  Ambiguous silence AND betrayal.  Pathetic for an ending.  Was it Bioware's intent to make their players into chumps? 

I do agree with you blademaster, on any other playthrough other than the romance run, the Ritual is palatable.  "It's tempting, you have no idea", "My Love" and "Sorrow and Regret" was hardly the conclusion of an epic romance or worth the effort in carefully charting the dialogue tree.  The only lesson I walked away with after my first RPG (much less Bioware RPG) is never, I repeat NEVER, romance the plot bridge; and be prepared at a moments notice to off your character if you want to walk away with a shred of dignity.

Modifié par Barbarossa2010, 05 mars 2010 - 04:16 .

[CybAnt1]

I think we have no idea where the dark ritual story arc is going. Other problem: the game has a possible ending where it never happened, not even to anyone else (i.e. Loghain/Alistair). However, I think it will become canon at some point that she had a child... somebody's... ?

There are a number of possibilities. One I pointed out is that we might have to fight our own son in the future. After all, Morrigan's name is quite similar to Morgan Le Fay, who gave birth to Arthur's son and enemy, Mordred, after seducing him in a ... dark ritual (she also was Arthur's half-sister). And you may notice the rather Arthurian flavor to some of the names and that Grail-like Urn .....

A lot of people suspect she's either emulating Flemeth's strategy of faux-immortality, or *is* now Flemeth, and getting ready for round 2 of possessing her own child. Maybe we have to save our child? Not sure if that's where the story arc is going, either.

And I agree a third scenario might be that our own child becomes a future companion ... or a future protagonist in a future expansion/sequel.

The bottom line is it's hard to say if the dark ritual was for "evil" purposes. Ostensibly, it was for an extremely "good" one - for Morrigan to save the life of someone she cared about, or possibly ... well, strongly liked having around (no 'l' word).

As to why she wants to raise the child alone and away from you ... well, yes, I know what she said, but I will repeat that it's interesting that nowhere in the dialogue does she ask back for the ring that establishes a psychic bond with her. And presumably could, at some point, be used to find her again.

Maybe there still is a happy ending for you and her; and your baby? We just don't know.

We don't know. And we're hungry to find out. And we probably won't find out in Awakenings.

But we'll patiently await for the next morsel.

Bioware bastages. :innocent:

Modifié par CybAnt1, 05 mars 2010 - 02:15 .

[Revya]

If you guys go read the new comic by Aimo and Chris you can get a better understanding of the scene.

As for me she is your Tsundare party member, more Tsun than dare but when her dare said comes out it really is cute

As for sequels as shown with the new expansion they are going with the DR route.

We will have to see in DA2...hoping that the baby is the pc

Modifié par Revya, 05 mars 2010 - 02:49 .

[Phoenix Swordsinger]

Revya wrote...

If you guys go read the new comic by Aimo and Chris you can get a better understanding of the scene.

As for me she is your Tsundare party member, more Tsun than dare but when her dare said comes out it really is cute

As for sequels as shown with the new expansion they are going with the DR route.

We will have to see in DA2...hoping that the baby is the pc

It was Aimo and David Gaider. The scene happens before Morrigan meets you in your room. It's based of a cut scene that was...well...cut. It gives you a better look at Morrigan. But then my female pc's were always 100 with her and I found it very touching.

[CybAnt1]

I just read the comic.



Wow ... just wow. So that was a scene that could have been in the game but was cut.



Sorry. Well, it convinces me of two things.



1. I was right about Morrigan, there's a heart beating in the sometimes cold exterior. She is NOT evil. OMG she cries! (Oh how I wish I could have seen that cutscene.)

2. At least unless something changes, the devs. clearly meant to show us that the dark ritual was something Morrigan was doing for us (at a cost to her and to us), not "to" us for some ulterior purpose.



Arl Foreshadow just passed me another note. I think this story arc *could* have a happy ending.



... as happy as things *can* end, in dark fantasy worlds, anyway.

[mhendon]

The first time I played, I swore I would track her down so I could kill her and my man's demon baby...but now that I was smart enough to leave her at camp and bring her approval rating all the way up, I do see the vulnerable, human side of Morrigan and I am much more sympathetic for her. 

I sort of wish they had left this scene in.  It really gets me right here!<3 

blog.bioware.com/

I am very much looking forward to tracking her down.  I'm not so sure about what I would do now though.

Modifié par mhendon, 05 mars 2010 - 06:57 .

[blademaster7]

Barbarossa2010 wrote...

My Warden's lover it turned out was so "in love" she would even sleep with Loghain to get what she wanted.  Ambiguous silence AND betrayal.  Pathetic for an ending.  Was it Bioware's intent to make their players into chumps? 

This. This right here summarizes the Morrigan romance. Terrible, chaotic and stupid writing.

If there was ever an attempt from the writers to make you feel that she actually loves the Warden it was nullified the moment she mentions Alistair/Loghain. How can you take "her love" seriously when you know that in the back of her head she has a plan B to sleep with another man in case you say no?

And the worst part is that you can convince them. You can have Alistair as your best friend and he'll just go ahead and do it without asking questions. He doesn't even ask why you aren't the one doing it. A realistic Alistair would say no because he can't do that to his best friend(not to mention he hates Morrigan). It takes him forever to sleep with a female PC even when he absolutely loves her, but he'll go ahead and sleep with a person that he abolutely despises and just happens to be the lover of his best friend.

So, yeah... the PC was out of character and Alistair was out of character too... but you know what? It doesn't matter because it allowed Morrigan to stay in character with her plot-device offer.

Modifié par blademaster7, 05 mars 2010 - 09:00 .

[Vicious]

Morrigan also gives the sad face when you tell her, "Thank you for everything" after the battle at the Gate but BEFORE talking to Riordan.



She gives the sad face and says, 'this means everything to me... you cannot know.'



So to me it indicates a lot more than her trying to become another Flemeth baby eater. But what? Who knows.



I always got the vibe that Flemeth The Shapeshifter was the real Flemeth all along, however.

[Myusha]

blademaster7 wrote...

Barbarossa2010 wrote...

My Warden's lover it turned out was so "in love" she would even sleep with Loghain to get what she wanted.  Ambiguous silence AND betrayal.  Pathetic for an ending.  Was it Bioware's intent to make their players into chumps? 

This. This right here summarizes the Morrigan romance. Terrible, chaotic and stupid writing.

If there was ever an attempt from the writers to make you feel that she actually loves the Warden it was nullified the moment she mentions Alistair/Loghain. How can you take "her love" seriously when you know that in the back of her head she has a plan B to sleep with another man in case you say no?

And the worst part is that you can convince them. You can have Alistair as your best friend and he'll just go ahead and do it without asking questions. He doesn't even ask why you aren't the one doing it. A realistic Alistair would say no because he can't do that to his best friend(not to mention he hates Morrigan). It takes him forever to sleep with a female PC even when he absolutely loves her, but he'll go ahead and sleep with a person that he abolutely despises and just happens to be the lover of his best friend.

So, yeah... the PC was out of character and Alistair was out of character too... but you know what? It doesn't matter because it allowed Morrigan to stay in character with her plot-device offer.

This child is extremely important to Morrigan's plans. She also doesn't want you to die either. By bringing up an another method she could be attempting to convince you into doing it. At least she did  that when I had Loghain...

[Ponce de Leon]

Oh, I was hoping for a Morrigan hate thread. You do know she could have lied to you, that she wanted that child just to achieve power, yes? Don't believe me? Read in the toolset, it's written there. Concept might have changed, but I don't think so.

[SirOccam]

Barbarossa2010 wrote...

I understand Morrigan was the plot bridge to a sequel, but the heavy handed nature of the Ritual was hardly any different whether you were her friend, neutral to her or her lover.  It was just bizarre.  It wasn't so much a problem with Morrigan as the writers.  One way or the other, the Dark Ritual would happen or your Warden's gone for good.  Letting her sleep with another was just no option as her lover (unless you're an indifferent personality and good with that sort of thing of course).  My Warden's lover it turned out was so "in love" she would even sleep with Loghain to get what she wanted.  Ambiguous silence AND betrayal.  Pathetic for an ending.  Was it Bioware's intent to make their players into chumps?

Nothing worth having comes easy.

I don't know what it is (perhaps the "Romeo and Juliet" factor), but I vastly prefer to pursue the romances that have everything stacked against them.* The more screwed up the better. And romancing Morrigan in DAO definitely falls into that category.

I didn't really see the Ritual as bizarre or heavy-handed (well maybe a little bit bizarre). I thought it showed a shift in Morrigan's character, while also showing, paradioxically, one part that doesn't shift one iota: her commitment to her "mission." I do wish there were more dialogue options (like objecting to having to choose between two different ways of losing her, or asking her how she could consider sleeping with Alistair/Loghain), but overall it's a very emotionally intense scene, and pretty much the only time you see Morrigan express real feelings (except for a little more at the gates of Denerim).

As a result, I have huge expectations for DA2. It's possible my hopes could be dashed, but I'm willing to risk it.

*It kind of reminds me of ME1. I hadn't really made up my mind about what romance to pursue (if any), but once I made one comment to Ashley Williams and she threw a very strongly-worded response about regs at me, I was decided.

[atomicbunny]

I really like Morrigan, I will cross my fingers to see her again.

Hopefully not leading an army against me, but nonetheless, we are BFF 4evah! OMG!



*cough*



Seriously though, her leaving with the soul of an old god clinging to her womb opens all kinds of interesting possibilities.

I've never read any of the books, so I'm pretty much in the dark except from what I have experienced through the game. Maybe her child will be the "key" to saving the Wardens from dying of darkspawn-itis! Oooo! File a patent!