117 réponses à ce sujet

[CybAnt1]

You do know she could have lied to you, that she wanted that child just to achieve power, yes? Don't believe me? Read in the toolset, it's written there. Concept might have changed, but I don't think so.

That did occur to me, but it seems the proof she wasn't lying is if you decide to decline your offer. 

The fact that someone dies - either you as UltSac or Loghain or Alistair if you make them do it - seems to prove her correct. 

She also could be lying about the ritual saving you/the other GW from harm - except, BTW, if you do it, and you do the killing blow, you do live, so she was telling the truth. 

Now BTW: the part about the child receiving the soul of an old god (and that that apparently won't be a bad thing either for the child or for the world) -- what will be the real consequences to the child of all this. let alone the world -- she absolutely could have been lying about that, and I've wondered ever since. 

Of course, what I'm secretly hoping she was lying about, esp. in the playthrough where we dallied, is that she never wants to see me again or have me see her or the child. And again I consider some "proof" in that direction in that she NEVER asked back for her ring, which psychically connects the two of us. 

[Sarah1281]

And again I consider some "proof" in that direction in that she NEVER asked back for her ring, which psychically connects the two of us.

It's possible that she could use the ring to sense you and thus avoid you easier if you insist on trying to track her down whereas all it seems to do for you is let you feel some of her emotions.

[guytza]

Wow, that scene that got cut out is amazing and the art work is fantastic. However I cant help but think that having it missing does make the entire choice feel more like a choice and not a big neon sign that says "click me" for the 'dark' ritual ending. I can also see the logistical side of leaving that out depending on the script, male vs female warden, alistair vs loghain, morrigan approval, alistair approval, loghain approval and thats only if the script has no mention of any other characters or the romance options therein. Figure each of those cutscenes would have to be mindful of every one of those factors i mentioned.

I feel a little better now having taken the deal to save my own hide and considering it my 'canon' ending. I may have to replay this character and go down the morrigan romance route this weekend.

[Thalorin1919]

My HNM had +100, and they were in love and all that. When she mad that offer, and said that it is something she must do, even suggesting Alistair as a suggestion. I basically told her no, cause I that as a Grey Warden I should do what I have to do, and end the blight with some dignity.



So in the end, I died a glorified hero, while she is trugging through the mountains with my non-god baby. She got what she deserved.

[Barbarossa2010]

Read the comic and it doesn't change my view. As it is, it didn't happen and if it did, my Warden had no knowledge of any such thing happening. He was left to decide based upon the information he had available, and Morrigan was certainly not going to help him.

Whatever that scene really means, Morrigan was still ugly cold for a supposed "lover" and ruthlessly ambiguous when presenting you with the Ritual. She was silent for all intents and purposes, and (in my mind) expected you to do a highly questionable and incredibly speculative thing that, at face value, runs contrary to everything a Grey Warden stands for.

That was the key for me, you are a Grey Warden. You exist to destroy the very thing she desired to attract the "essence" of. It was not realistic for her to expect you to do this thing with no explanation! My Warden had no knowledge of magic, ancient or otherwise. He was a Warden through and through (as Wynne acknowledged) and would have stopped Morrigan at all costs (had he been himself), from possibly extending the Blight, or making things far worse; unless she could convince him otherwise.

Many want to make a big deal out of the fact that Morrigan may have had a grand mission, but my Warden had his mission too, and that just gets brushed aside in this conversation. To me, the burden of the Ritual was on Morrigan to explain, not the Warden's to accept; and that simple fact was just assumed away by the writers for no other reason than a plot hook. Contrived, unrealistic and weird imo. But we all know why it was done this way. It was only good writing in that it would hook a sequel, not because it was anywhere near realistic, creative, or in-character for the player.

To make that comic book scene really insulting, if you turn her down because you've determined on what little knowledge you have that she's way off track, and a heroic death is way better than blandly accepting betrayal, disgrace and being derelict in your Wardenly duty (and she does nothing to convince you otherwise, except to attempt to convince you to have your buddy screw her), she walks out on you and just let's you die! How selfless of her. What an incredibly loving and helpful thing to do. Wow, isn't she is just amazing and in-character? BTW, did you ever notice how predatory she looks in the cut scene at the Ritual? A bit creepy really.

Not buying it. Doesn't add up, and I cannot envision anything that justifies her letting her supposed "love" die, and so coldly I might add (since she wants to help so much). For her to remain silent and walk out is unconscionable; but then again, I'm not an emotionally repressed troglodyte.

Whatever the writers decide she's up to, they have a very high feasibility check to overcome or the BS flags are going to fly like confetti.

As I said, Morrigan may have had her mission, but my Warden had his and the writers wanted to force a showdown to choose between them. Realistically, it wasn't much of a choice. All could have been avoided with a simple conversation between lovers, and perhaps an iota of tenderness, but that wouldn't have kept everyone on edge for two years and build demand for a sequel, would it?

Modifié par Barbarossa2010, 06 mars 2010 - 06:34 .

[blademaster7]

I'll say it again. The writing was lacking. So lacking in fact, that -in my eyes- it hurts the characters(the PC, Alistair and to an extent Morrigan).

It puts everyone out of character for the sake of a cliffhanger.

Now for a moment let's forget that our PC was acting like an idiot by not having the option to interrogate her.

Let us look things from Morrigan's perspective.

At this point she only cares about two things. The old-god child and the PC(I'm assuming romance here). So by performing the ritual, she basically hits two birds in one stone. It's a win-win situation for her.

She offers her ritual to  the Warden and he's trying to learn as much as possible about it. He asked her everything he could. "Will the child be evil?" "What do you intent to do with this child" and all those other questions that are available.

The final answer was no. The Warden told her that he doesn't trust the secrecy and that he would never bring a demon child to the world.

And what does she do? She walks out the door and leaves. Just like that. Morrigan just lost the only two things in the world that mattered to her. And for what reason? Because she would rather not reveal her plans.

Surely, she had nothing to lose at this point. If there was ever a time to spit everything out, that was it. She could've made a promise at least not to hurt the child, but no. She walks out with a cold look in her eyes, knowing that the only person she cared about is about to die the next day.

And all that because she doesn't want to talk. Or if you prefer, the writers didn't want to talk. They have their cliffhanger, but to us male players that romanced her... we got a nice kick in the teeth.

Modifié par blademaster7, 06 mars 2010 - 08:30 .

[Akka le Vil]

As the post above me point truly, much of the Morrigan's hate is due to writing, not only because of the character.

Morrigan has the basis to be a very interesting character. As it was said, she's just as much a victim as a perpetrator (victim from having a very special upbringing and an education that twisted her value and was aimed at making her only see power and survival as worthy).



There is two problems with her that lead to the hate :

First, it's never possible to actually slam her down from her pedestal of arrogance. She always has the last snarky word and as such tends to feel "iredeemable" (spelling ?). In the end, if your character is infuriated by what can be seen by a treason on some angles, she just walk out with a smug face and you can't do anything.

To sum up, she feels like a Mary Sue and that tends to irritate lots of people.



The second problem, quite tied with the first, is that she simply is often completely dumb and hypocrite. It can be bad writing, or it can be good writing that point at the flaws of her upbringing. But in both cases it makes her unlikeable for many.



As a last note, I'd say that I just can't believe the cutscene from the comic was not included. Especially considering the mockery of a six-monthes-pushed-back release for the sake of console, which gave all the time necessary to make such an addition.

The scene gives a completely different highlight on the Dark Ritual question, and it's so central to her character that I can just /facepalm at how it wasn't included. Seriously. I know you can't put EVERYTHING and you have to make a choice, but half of the cutscene of the game were less important that this one. No excuse.

[nYshak]

blademaster7 wrote...

The final answer was no. The Warden told her that he doesn't trust the secrecy and that he would never bring a demon child to the world.

And what does she do? She walks out the door and leaves. Just like that. Morrigan just lost the only two things in the world that mattered to her. And for what reason? Because she would rather not reveal her plans.

Surely, she had nothing to lose at this point. If there was ever a time to spit everything out, that was it. She could've made a promise at least not to hurt the child, but no. She walks out with a cold look in her eyes, knowing that the only person she cared about is about to die the next day.

And all that because she doesn't want to talk. Or if you prefer, the writers didn't want to talk. They have their cliffhanger, but to us male players that romanced her... we got a nice kick in the teeth.

Yes, you know, women are like that
We'll have to wait and see if Bioware is going to reveal Morrigans story further in a coming expansion or sequel. Then and only then can we judge the writing of DAO. Right now we just don't know her reasons and although her actions don't make sense now, it does not mean they never will.

For instance, her actions (she leaving if you refuse) makes perfect sense IF the child will be evil and her goal is to use it to conquer the world. Its not what I believe Morrigan is up to but lets pretend that for a moment. Ok, so the Warden refuses. Your Morrigan. Now what? Tell him what your really up to? No. Lie? You already did that by telling him the child won't be evil - and it did not work. Force the Warden? How? etc. etc. As a matter of fact in that scenario the evil witch played her cards and lost. And leaves.

[Sabriana]

This is really interesting. My PCs are all female, so I've never had the experience of the Morrigan romance. And because my PCs don't romance Alistair - at least not to completion, there was never a conflict of interest either.

I often wondered how the male PC would handle the situation if he truly did not want to risk fathering a child of questionable future. There's a lot of disappointment here, and I most certainly see the reasoning.

My PCs were all friends with Morrigan, but none allowed the ritual, simply because Morrigan was too hedgy. Her "you don't need to know" and "that is all I will say" did not sit well with any of them. Hence, in all my games, Morrigan was never allowed the ritual, and my PCs were all hurt that she just up and runs out on them. And the next day, Alistair does the same (well, in half of my games, anyway).

The comic does reveal a deeper insight, but I wonder why Morrigan more or less acts as if it was a sacrifice of some sort on her part. And what's with the expression "do a terrible thing." Explain what's terrible, Morrigan.

[ejoslin]

Sabriana wrote...

This is really interesting. My PCs are all female, so I've never had the experience of the Morrigan romance. And because my PCs don't romance Alistair - at least not to completion, there was never a conflict of interest either.
I often wondered how the male PC would handle the situation if he truly did not want to risk fathering a child of questionable future. There's a lot of disappointment here, and I most certainly see the reasoning.
My PCs were all friends with Morrigan, but none allowed the ritual, simply because Morrigan was too hedgy. Her "you don't need to know" and "that is all I will say" did not sit well with any of them. Hence, in all my games, Morrigan was never allowed the ritual, and my PCs were all hurt that she just up and runs out on them. And the next day, Alistair does the same (well, in half of my games, anyway).
The comic does reveal a deeper insight, but I wonder why Morrigan more or less acts as if it was a sacrifice of some sort on her part. And what's with the expression "do a terrible thing." Explain what's terrible, Morrigan.

Since the whole thing was Flemmeth's plan to begin with, maybe the god baby ties in with Flemmeth's plans for Morrigan?  Maybe Morrigan is sacrificing herself, allowing herself to be used by Flemmeth, to save the wardens?  That only makes sense if Morrigan and the warden are good friends, though, and also contradicts Morrigan saying that she may not always be worthy of the Warden's friendship.

Edit: forgive me if this is stating the obvious or the absurd.  I haven't given this aspect of the story a great deal of thought.  I just take it for what it is!

Modifié par ejoslin, 06 mars 2010 - 03:07 .

[CybAnt1]

I think there's one other aspect to all this that I didn't realize until I explored a dialogue path I hadn't before in the Morrigan-me DR convo last night.



She says at one point "This is why Flemeth sent me to go with you & Alistair". IOW, no it was not to provide the support of her mage spells in combat, she sent her to go with you & Alistair because basically she needed to sleep with a Gray Warden and conceive a GW's child (and it's obvious why she picks you as the better bedmate than him, she hates him)! This was the "plan" all along. So the reason she sleeps with you even before the DR is also part of this "plan". If you've ever wondered why you don't have to be very far along in your romance for the witch to go wild.... but btw she then followed this revelation with the statement that it wasn't her plan to develop actual feelings for you, and yet she did.



Now I bring this up for a second reason... again out of curiosity I pursued a different ending where I chose not to do the ritual, and sacrificed Loghain. The endgame dialogue still says she was with child ... but probably from the first time you "shared her tent" in camp, not the DR. Now again all this is raising all kinds of interesting questions in my mind. Maybe the critical factor is to have the child of a Gray Warden ... whether or not it is pre or post slaying of the Archdemon? That the slaying of the Archdemon and soul transference may just be "gravy" but the key is that the child has to be a GW's? Why she'll even get into bed with Alistair for the DR, who she despises, or Loghain, who you practically have to hit with a sledgehammer to make him do it -- once they are GWs, of course?



Now BTW you could have short-circuited this plan, even if you romanced her, by not sleeping with her (and btw, of course, my assumption that you used whatever in the medieval world served as birth control, the first time, anyway) ... but who ever turned down her very, shall we say, vigorous offer?



BTW, I've never seen this ending personally, but some have said there are endings where she's with child, even though you never romanced her as a male, slept with her, or had yourself or anyone else do the DR. What's up with that? Snuck into Alistair's tent, put a spell on him, made him forget? Or did that to you?



Her character is very complex. For sure.



But it seems some part of Flemeth's plan is to have Morrigan get pregnant by a GW. And yet Morrigan tells you this, even after you now know, btw, though you didn't originally, that another part of Flemeth's plans is rather nasty, concerning her own child/children. Strange to reveal that, and yet not deal with that context.

[Ahisgewaya]

blademaster7 wrote...

I felt bad for my character to be honest, not for Morrigan.

I realized that I spend 60+ hours so I can be a tool for Flemeth and her daughter. My character gets to live, yay... but he hasn't got any dignity left. I so wanted to destroy my PC that moment.

My next character went for the Ultimate sacrifice and since then I never looked back.

The Morrigan romance ending is a real kick to the teeth. I found it insulting after spending so much time and effort. I take roleplaying a bit serious sometimes but that's just me .

How do you not have any dignity left? So having sex with the woman you love plus performing a ritual to turn your child into a god makes you have no dignity? What a weird thing to say....

[Ahisgewaya]

Thalorin1919 wrote...


So in the end, I died a glorified hero, while she is trugging through the mountains with my non-god baby. She got what she deserved.

Yes, shame on her for trying to save your life.

[SirOccam]

Sabriana wrote...

The comic does reveal a deeper insight, but I wonder why Morrigan more or less acts as if it was a sacrifice of some sort on her part. And what's with the expression "do a terrible thing." Explain what's terrible, Morrigan.

I got the impression from that comic (though I could be mistaken) that it assumes a female PC (one with whom Morrigan is friends...Morrigan's "one friend"), and furthermore one that is romantically involved with Alistair. Therefore the "terrible thing" would be to ask the PC friend to talk Alistair into making a baby with Morrigan. But it does mean that the PC will not die. And it also fulfills her "mission." Two birds with one stone. Yet it is still a terrible thing to have to ask, as I'm sure we can all see. That she asks Alistair his advice and he tells her she should do it is a pretty good example of dramatic irony, since he'll be directly involved, and had he known the details, his advice would undoubtedly be different.

I think the comic confirms that Morrigan really was torn about it. The fact that we don't see that cutscene doesn't change that that was the writers' intent, and it doesn't mean that anyone responding solely to what they DO see is wrong. Obviously without metagaming you have to go with the information with which you're presented.

As for Morrigan running away if you turn her down, well, I like to think it's more out of being upset and/or not wanting to watch her friend or beloved die. I do wish there were a little more to go on there...like when she says "if you decline then I'll leave right now anyway," I wish there were a way to question her about that.

But as it stands, I think it made for a pretty powerful ending, and I have no problem waiting through however many expansions it takes to get a resolution. Absence makes the heart grow fonder, and so forth.

[blademaster7]

[quote]Ahisgewaya wrote...
How do you not have any dignity left? So having sex with the woman you love plus performing a ritual to turn your child into a god makes you have no dignity? What a weird thing to say....[/quote]
I think I made enough points that make it obvious. I'll just add a few more and then back away from this topic. it's tiring me out.[/quote]

She tells you straight in your face that she's leaving because she has no further use for you. It was a foolish mistake of ther part to fall in love with you and she outright tells you that.

You're gonna be a father of a child you are never gonna see again and you have no idea what she plans on doing with it.  Your sole mission as a Grey Warden is to destroy the essence of the Archdemon, not transfer it into your own child. What if the child gets hurt? Would you ever forgive your self?

It wasn't a romantic night. It was a deal and she states it. She saves your life and in return you let her leave  without following. The part about saving your life is just a secondary reinforcment for her. She still offers the ritual to you even if she hates your guts. Not to mention that in the back of her head she has a "plan B" to sleep with Alistair/Loghain in case you say no and she asks you to convince Alistair/Loghain to screw her ... in your bed.

If your Warden didn't feel like a complete idiot when he heard the offer then I understand. Mine felt like one. But to each his own.

Modifié par blademaster7, 06 mars 2010 - 08:34 .

[Barbarossa2010]

Ahisgewaya wrote...

blademaster7 wrote...

I felt bad for my character to be honest, not for Morrigan.

I realized that I spend 60+ hours so I can be a tool for Flemeth and her daughter. My character gets to live, yay... but he hasn't got any dignity left. I so wanted to destroy my PC that moment.

My next character went for the Ultimate sacrifice and since then I never looked back.

The Morrigan romance ending is a real kick to the teeth. I found it insulting after spending so much time and effort. I take roleplaying a bit serious sometimes but that's just me .

How do you not have any dignity left? So having sex with the woman you love plus performing a ritual to turn your child into a god makes you have no dignity? What a weird thing to say....

I find it a weird thing to say that someone else is weird because they felt betrayed by a person they thought of as a lover.  The notion of love and how one acts and judges things when in this state is hardly an objective science, and expectations of that love vary in radical degrees among normal people.  People determine for themselves what is right, wrong and acceptable when in love.  What is weird to you might be very common to many others and vice versa.

For instance, I find it really weird that a Grey Warden, sworn to defeat Blights and kill Archdemons, would accept to do a such a speculative "Ritual" to attract the "essence" (whatever that really is) of said Archdemon with so little information and such an evasive "expert." 

I find it weird that one woud just trust Morrigan at face value; especially after recently finding out what her mother most likely did with her own progeny, and the bitterly cold, evasive and business-like nature of her request. 

I find it weird that a Grey Warden would not interrogate her with more rigor as to her intentions.  As it was, under the framework one was forced to consider the Ritual, I thought to do it was beyond irresponsible.  I wondered what Riordan or Duncan would have advised since my Warden's relationship of "love" with Morrigan had now been reduced to business and the specific missions we were both assigned to accomplish.  My mission did not rely on her, but hers damn sure relied on me.  That the burden somehow was my Warden's to accept the Ritual as oppose to Morrigan to explain the Ritual was preposterous.  It was contrived, unrealistic and (yes) weird!

What you found to be acceptable, I found to be unacceptable and the height of irresponsibility for a Grey Warden.  Where you trusted, I was reasonably suspicious.  That she did nothing to alleviate that suspicion spoke volumes. Where you saw a loving act of god-making, I saw betrayal.  That she walked out on you and leaves you to die, when she no longer had any feasible reason to remain silent, only confirms it in my mind.

That's every bit as objective opinion as yours.  But I wouldn't accuse you of saying something weird because you trusted her and thought the Ritual a great thing.

[Ahisgewaya]

blademaster7

She tells you straight in your face that she's leaving because she has no further use for you. It was a foolish mistake of ther part to fall in love with you and she outright tells you that. 

She told me that once in the beginning, then apologized and said she was mistaken. Maybe she likes me more than you.

You're gonna be a father of a child you are never gonna see again and you have no idea what she plans on doing with it. 

I have a pretty good idea, and I'm fine with it. She gave me her word no harm would come to the child. (and before you ask, yes her word means something to me)


Your sole mission as a Grey Warden is to destroy the essence of the Archdemon, not transfer it into your own child. What if the child gets hurt? Would you ever forgive your self?  

My "mission" was to stop the blight. Not destroy the essence of an old god (which I would prefer to the stupid maker anyway). Secondly, it saves my life while defeating the blight as far as my character knows. Finally, it could hurt the kid, but the kid's already screwed since he's the spawn of a grey warden. If he has the soul of a god though, he might just be able to overcome being the child of a tainted demonic being (you). 


It wasn't a romantic night. It was a deal and she states it.

Now we come to it. I'm now thinking you never romanced her, did you? It was quite romantic indeed. She says you both will make this a night to remember.

If your Warden didn't feel like a complete idiot when he heard the offer then I understand. Mine felt like one. But to each his own.

Then you probably didn't understand the situation. You can either die a stupid death for something you may not even beleive in (especially if you're an elf). Or you can do a ritual which would let you have a child which Grey Warden's normally can't do, and at the same time free a tormented soul (That of the Archdemon) from a hellish existence. Kind of looks to me like the former choice was the idiotic one.

Modifié par Ahisgewaya, 06 mars 2010 - 09:29 .

[blademaster7]

How exactly is sacrificing your self to kill the Archdemon stupid? Aren't you Grey Warden?

You know what. I'm not gonna even bother anymore.

All I have to say is that Barbarossa2010 just wrote the best post I've seen in this topic. I don't know how you do it man, but every time I read any of your posts I feel like you stole it from my mind or something.

[Ahisgewaya]

Barbarossa2010 wrote...
I find it a weird thing to say that someone else is weird because they felt betrayed by a person they thought of as a lover. 

I never said he was weird, just that what he said was weird. And what he said was that he had no dignity because he did the ritual. And since I also did the ritual, by extension he was saying I had no dignity, which is a weird (and incorrect) thing to say.

[Ahisgewaya]

blademaster7 wrote...

How exactly is sacrificing your self to kill the Archdemon stupid? Aren't you Grey Warden?

I was forced into being a Grey Warden because someone lied to me after I had been tainted by an evil artifact.
I never volunteered, I never asked for it and I sure as hell didn't swear anything. I drank a poison. Had some weird dreams. Tried to help out as many people as I could. Then was asked to die. And I said no.
 
I don't beleive in sacrifice. I consider it a coward's way out instead of looking for a REAL solution.

There are at least a couple more Archdemons out there. Who's going to defeat them? The Grey Wardens? They were within a hare's breath of being wiped out at Ostagar. Looks to me like they're not invincible as an order.
Then they would have been wiped out in Ferelden, where they were already a dying order. I bet the same holds true in Orlais.

Modifié par Ahisgewaya, 06 mars 2010 - 09:48 .

[blademaster7]

Ahisgewaya wrote...

Barbarossa2010 wrote...
I
find it a weird thing to say that someone else is weird because they
felt betrayed by a person they thought of as a lover. 

I
never said he was weird, just that what he said was weird. And what he
said was that he had no dignity because he did the ritual. And since I
also did the ritual, by extension he was saying I had no dignity, which
is a weird (and incorrect) thing to say.

I didn't say that anyone who accept the ritual has no dignity. I said my character from my perspective.

And you can't just claim something as incorrect from someone's roleplaying. It's called roleplaying for a reason. You interpret things anyway you want.

Now if you excuse me, I'll take a break from this discussion.

[Ahisgewaya]

So you're saying it's not incorrect that I have no dignity? My what a considerate person you are! I bet you have lots of friends with an attitude like that!

Modifié par Ahisgewaya, 06 mars 2010 - 09:53 .

[blademaster7]

What?! Are you even understanding what I'm saying?



It's my own freaking game and I believe what I want about my character. I never said anything about you nor anyone else. I was referring to my character. There is no reason to take offense for something I said about my self. Good lord!

[Barbarossa2010]

Ahisgewaya wrote...

I don't beleive in sacrifice. I consider it a coward's way out instead of looking for a REAL solution.

Ha, that's a good one.  Thanks for the perspective.  There's little doubt as to why that whole dignity thing eludes you.

[Ahisgewaya]

Barbarossa2010 wrote...

Ha, that's a good one.  Thanks for the perspective.  There's little doubt as to why that whole dignity thing eludes you.

That is quite a mean thing to say, so I doubt I need lessons in dignity from you.