117 réponses à ce sujet

[Brockololly]

Sabriana wrote...
The comic does reveal a deeper insight, but I wonder why Morrigan more or less acts as if it was a sacrifice of some sort on her part. And what's with the expression "do a terrible thing." Explain what's terrible, Morrigan.

Well, in my games I'm almost always a human noble male and romance Morrigan- so I really enjoyed the little extra insight into her character that the comic provided.

That said, I do wonder about the nature of the "something terrible" line- it could mean the betrayal of trust of the Female warden PC or does it refer to the Ritual itself? The fact that Morrigan feels compelled to leave and says that it would not be wise for the Warden to track her down makes me think that maybe the RItual isn't some absolute for Morrigan- maybe whatever her mission is it involves some sacrifice on her part that she wants the Warden to avoid?

As it stands, the whole Ritual scene really bugs me, especially if you were friends or romancing Morrigan. She comes off as way to sinister and way too evasive. If you were romancing her or friends with her, you started to see some cracks in her whole survival of the fittest, love is a weakeness facade, and then in the Ritual scene, she just clams up again and shuts your Warden out, all the while expecting you to supply her with an Old God Baby? Hmm...

All I know is that for me,  the Ritual scene is easily the most frustrating scene in the game. I know alot of Morrigan's alure is her mysterious nature, but at the same time it felt like the writers were holding too much back for future DA installments by not providing more reasonale dialogue options in the Ritual scene.

[Barbarossa2010]

Ahisgewaya wrote...

Barbarossa2010 wrote...
I find it a weird thing to say that someone else is weird because they felt betrayed by a person they thought of as a lover. 

I never said he was weird, just that what he said was weird. And what he said was that he had no dignity because he did the ritual. And since I also did the ritual, by extension he was saying I had no dignity, which is a weird (and incorrect) thing to say.

Good, then you won't be offended when I say that most of what you said here is painfully idiotic?

[Ahisgewaya]

Only if you won't be offended when I call you a douche.

Modifié par Ahisgewaya, 06 mars 2010 - 10:20 .

[Barbarossa2010]

Ahisgewaya wrote...

Barbarossa2010 wrote...

Ha, that's a good one.  Thanks for the perspective.  There's little doubt as to why that whole dignity thing eludes you.

That is quite a mean thing to say, so I doubt I need lessons in dignity from you.

Yeah, I couldn't help but notice how nice you were.  It seems you are not beyond SACRIFICING yourself to the gods of victimhood.  Whatever.

[saintfrancisnudecenterfold]

Yazenia wrote...
so my character told her , he will find her someday.

i really would love to see more of Morrigan in a future expansion.

STALKER!!!

I declare a potential Amber Alert!

[guytza]

Ahisgewa, As one dalish to another. I completely understand what you were trying to point out. The blight is a human creation, in human lands, threatening a human city. The Dalish are in no immediate threat, we support the war effort but this entire cluster-bleep is by the design of Shems. So after all the lies, the betrayal, the slavery, and all the attacks, you expect me to fall on my blade for Shems? Heck no, not when theres another perfectly valid solution to the problem. Now, I do understand the idea of sacrifice and were the dark ritual not included I would take the blow myself. But Self-sacrifice is the last ditch effort born of desperation.



That being said, its not surprising that certain origins would find the Ultimate Sacrifice more endearing than others, particularly the Human Noble vs the Dalish Elf. The Human Noble is all about sacrifice, Fergus taking his armies to Ostagar, Ser Gilmore holding the gates while you get away, and finally your parents standing their ground to buy you and Duncan time to escape. The Dalish origin by contrast is about survival, your people have few numbers, your first choice is to risk the Shemlens you find in the woods bringing their friends back to burn out the elves, or to simply kill the Shems off then and there. The clan, in order to survive, leaves behind your friend. Then, to survive, you go to Ostagar and agree to this whole joining thing.



Dont you just love how multi-faceted it all is?

[Ahisgewaya]

guytza wrote...

Ahisgewa, As one dalish to another. I completely understand what you were trying to point out. The blight is a human creation, in human lands, threatening a human city. The Dalish are in no immediate threat, we support the war effort but this entire cluster-bleep is by the design of Shems. So after all the lies, the betrayal, the slavery, and all the attacks, you expect me to fall on my blade for Shems? Heck no, not when theres another perfectly valid solution to the problem. Now, I do understand the idea of sacrifice and were the dark ritual not included I would take the blow myself. But Self-sacrifice is the last ditch effort born of desperation.

That being said, its not surprising that certain origins would find the Ultimate Sacrifice more endearing than others, particularly the Human Noble vs the Dalish Elf. The Human Noble is all about sacrifice, Fergus taking his armies to Ostagar, Ser Gilmore holding the gates while you get away, and finally your parents standing their ground to buy you and Duncan time to escape. The Dalish origin by contrast is about survival, your people have few numbers, your first choice is to risk the Shemlens you find in the woods bringing their friends back to burn out the elves, or to simply kill the Shems off then and there. The clan, in order to survive, leaves behind your friend. Then, to survive, you go to Ostagar and agree to this whole joining thing.

Dont you just love how multi-faceted it all is?

Thank you, Guytza. You understand perfectly what I am on about. I don't usually play as a human noble, but you have given me some perspective on this whole thing.

[Barbarossa2010]

guytza wrote...

Ahisgewa, As one dalish to another. I completely understand what you were trying to point out. The blight is a human creation, in human lands, threatening a human city. The Dalish are in no immediate threat, we support the war effort but this entire cluster-bleep is by the design of Shems. So after all the lies, the betrayal, the slavery, and all the attacks, you expect me to fall on my blade for Shems? Heck no, not when theres another perfectly valid solution to the problem. Now, I do understand the idea of sacrifice and were the dark ritual not included I would take the blow myself. But Self-sacrifice is the last ditch effort born of desperation.

That being said, its not surprising that certain origins would find the Ultimate Sacrifice more endearing than others, particularly the Human Noble vs the Dalish Elf. The Human Noble is all about sacrifice, Fergus taking his armies to Ostagar, Ser Gilmore holding the gates while you get away, and finally your parents standing their ground to buy you and Duncan time to escape. The Dalish origin by contrast is about survival, your people have few numbers, your first choice is to risk the Shemlens you find in the woods bringing their friends back to burn out the elves, or to simply kill the Shems off then and there. The clan, in order to survive, leaves behind your friend. Then, to survive, you go to Ostagar and agree to this whole joining thing.

Dont you just love how multi-faceted it all is?

Thanks guytza, I get that. 

I just wanted you to know that I did free your brother elf from Howe's dungeon and summarily executed that human who, I didn't really know what he was guilty of, but just looked like he was really deserving of it.  Oh, and I did shut down rather violently the operations of the Tevinter Imperium to enslave your people in the Alienage outside of the Denerim market, although apperently Morrigan seemed to have little problem with it and gave me -3 disapproval when I executed their ring leader Caladrius!   

Hopefully this will demostrate my good will and willingness to work cooperatively and honestly with your people.

Signed,

Barbarossa

[SirOccam]

I don't understand why people are acting like it's some kind of choice between killing the Archdemon and doing the Ritual. As though it is one's duty as a Grey Warden not simply to kill the Archdemon, but to die while doing it? Who said you are not allowed to survive? They simply don't know of any way to do it without dying.

As for whether what the Ritual accomplishes is a good thing or a bad thing, well that depends, mainly on how much you trust Morrigan. And that depends on your character's relationship with her.

For some, like my character, they choose to trust her despite her many previous deceptions. Foolish, maybe. But the point is that WE DON'T KNOW YET whether that trust has been misplaced. If you feel like it strips you of your dignity, so be it. Not everyone feels that way.

Barbarossa2010 wrote...

Ahisgewaya wrote...

Barbarossa2010 wrote...
Ha, that's a good one. Thanks for the perspective. There's little doubt as to why that whole dignity thing eludes you.

That is quite a mean thing to say, so I doubt I need lessons in dignity from you.

Yeah, I couldn't help but notice how nice you were.

Really? "You started it?" I thought that was covered in, like...Kindergarten.

You guys should both chill. You know what they say about arguing on the Internet.

Modifié par SirOccam, 07 mars 2010 - 12:30 .

[ENCHANTMENTSSS]

I can't believe my first character romance I got all caught up with her and the love and everything only to hav it all fall apart in the end. Dam you Bioware for engaging me into the game so! I admit i did everything in hopes of the perfect ending in the end with her but alas c'est la vie! No one should complain about Not gettin an endin they wanted to fit their needs cuz face it that's life.

[Brockololly]

SirOccam wrote...
As for whether what the Ritual accomplishes is a good thing or a bad thing, well that depends, mainly on how much you trust Morrigan. And that depends on your character's relationship with her.

For some, like my character, they choose to trust her despite her many previous deceptions. Foolish, maybe. But the point is that WE DON'T KNOW YET whether that trust has been misplaced. If you feel like it strips you of your dignity, so be it. Not everyone feels that way.
.

My logic in doing the Ritual is generally that even though we don't know what Morrigan is up to, at least my Warden will be around if Morrigan decides to do something nasty with Old God Baby or whatever. I mean if you turn down the Ritual, Morrigan leaves right then and there, so do you think that she is just going to stop whatever it is she has planned and give up? Knowing her personality, I doubt it. 

Personally I think the Old God Baby is just a means to an end for Morrigan and if you deny her the Ritual she will just find another way to carry out whatever plan she has in store. And given my Warden's knowldege and past history with her, I would rather he be the one to deal with her and not just sacrifice himself and leave Morrigan out loose in the world, planning who knows what.

[pmlour]

If you talk to Leliana in camp about stories from Fereldon,she talks about Flemeth and how it scares little children.It is very iluminating to hear Flemeths story from when she was a young bride and then met a poet she ran off with.

[Phoenix Swordsinger]

pmlour wrote...

If you talk to Leliana in camp about stories from Fereldon,she talks about Flemeth and how it scares little children.It is very iluminating to hear Flemeths story from when she was a young bride and then met a poet she ran off with.

Morrigan has another version of that story told to her from Flemmeth. That one will definatley illuminate.

[pmlour]

Its a hard life living in a swamp.Morrigan comments on Flemeths cooking to Leliana.I can only gag at what they would find to eat.No KFC for sure.

[Sabriana]

From a femWarden perspective, my PCs have all been good friends with Morrigan, although she disapproved left and right of my PCs actions.

To be  honest, my PC gets a little apprehensive starting with the "kill Flemeth" demand. She does Morrigan's bidding, because she  still trusts her at that point, even though Flemeth saved her live. I must say, though, Flemeth's willingness to just hand the book over is a bit startling.

However, come the time for the ritual, none of my PCs allow it, simply because Morrigan refuses to speak about it, and is even more close-mouthed about the baby. Her manipulation attempts also serve only to make my PC even more suspicious. Telling her to put herself in her lovers shoes, and think about the terrible thing she would inflict on him if not doing the ritual doesn't sit well with my PC

The thing is, she also comes across as predatory. However, because none of my girls ever romance Alistair to completion, I'm luckier than other players, whose PC (fem) is in a relationship with Alistair, or their PC (male) is in a relationship with Morrigan.

When Morrigan does pull my PC's lover as a trump-card, telling her how badly he would feel if she died, my PC usually starts getting very apprehensive - she doesn't like manipulations, especially such thinly veiled ones.. So all my games end up with 'no baby for you'. Simply because of her behavior, mind you. I don't know how my PC would react if Morrigan was more forth-coming with information, didn't come off quite so predatory, and didn't engage in very transparent attempts at manipulation.

Therefore, my PC (none of them) never gets to see Morrigan at the gates and in the end-game. I hear that she is very sweet and heart-warming there. I don't know what to make of this, to be honest. First she is a great friend of my PC, telling her that she is the only friend she ever had/trusted/etc.

Then she becomes predatory, manipulative, cold, and hedgy about her agenda and the baby.

After getting what she wants, she once again becomes the great friend.

Something is askew here, and I don't think I can ever have one of my PCs agree to talk Alistair/Loghain into fathering a child. Sorry, but with a request so huge, and with such large implications "That's all you need to know", and "I will say nothing more than that" just don't cut it.

[blademaster7]

Well said Sabriana. Here I thought the people who felt like that are very few.
Now allow me to quote the part I liked the most.

Sabriana wrote...

First she is a great friend of my PC, telling her that she is the only friend she ever had/trusted/etc.

Then she becomes predatory, manipulative, cold, and hedgy about her agenda and the baby.

After getting what she wants, she once again becomes the great friend.

Something is askew here, and I don't think I can ever have one of my PCs agree to talk Alistair/Loghain into fathering a child. Sorry, but with a request so huge, and with such large implications "That's all you need to know", and "I will say nothing more than that" just don't cut it.

A very fine point indeed.

Allow me to add that if you say no she walks out and leaves with a cold look in her eyes. After all these months "helping" you out with the blight she decides that it's better to give up the old-god child(which means everything to her) and let her friend/love die. And the reason? She doesn't want you to know her plans. She would rather remain silent instead of making a last ditch effort to convince you. That alone is reason enough for me to say "no" and go slay the archdemon my self, or let Loghain redeem him self knowing that Ferelden is safe and there are no loose ends.

[UpiH]

Summa summarum: Maybe the writers found themselves no longer caring after the buck begun to roll in. I mean, why worry about inconsistencies while, for example, you get a journal entry stating you failed your child to become a dwarf noble, even if you're an elven mage. Neither does arlessa Eamon look like your average undead if you saved both Conor and her. Yet the codex entry for both Conor and the arlessa states differently. The Shaperate supervisor says, he'll give you a reward, no such thing ever happens. I could go on and on, obviously it doesn't matter anymore.

[Ahisgewaya]

blademaster7 wrote...

Well said Sabriana. Here I thought the people who felt like that are very few.
Now allow me to quote the part I liked the most.

Sabriana wrote...

First she is a great friend of my PC, telling her that she is the only friend she ever had/trusted/etc.

Then she becomes predatory, manipulative, cold, and hedgy about her agenda and the baby.

After getting what she wants, she once again becomes the great friend.

Something is askew here, and I don't think I can ever have one of my PCs agree to talk Alistair/Loghain into fathering a child. Sorry, but with a request so huge, and with such large implications "That's all you need to know", and "I will say nothing more than that" just don't cut it.

A very fine point indeed.

Allow me to add that if you say no she walks out and leaves with a cold look in her eyes. After all these months "helping" you out with the blight she decides that it's better to give up the old-god child(which means everything to her) and let her friend/love die. And the reason? She doesn't want you to know her plans. She would rather remain silent instead of making a last ditch effort to convince you. That alone is reason enough for me to say "no" and go slay the archdemon my self, or let Loghain redeem him self knowing that Ferelden is safe and there are no loose ends.

I must admit this part makes absolutley no sense. I think it's all writer shenanigans. She really should be more forthcoming, and if you have a high enough cunning and persuasion, you should be able to get her to tell you. Especially if you romanced her, and you can persuade someone who had every intention of killing you to just walk away. I hate that there wasn't even an option to say "tell me more about it and I promise we'll do this".

Modifié par Ahisgewaya, 07 mars 2010 - 12:55 .

[Phoenix Swordsinger]

I read these and think wow. I defenitely can see the point those of you who have never taken the ritual are making. It's funny. My first play through, HNF, romanced Alistair, hardened him, was going to be queen, then the Morrigan conversation. My PC felt some twinges but truly just felt Morrigan was being...well, Morrigan. I excepted with out all these doubts. I have taken the No route twice just for the achievements. If you say to Morrigan please don't go, she looks very regretful, not cold. If I put myself in my PC's shoes, it's a hurtful moment, but I still don't hate her.

[CybAnt1]

Well, it's weird. First I discovered the comic, which humanized Morgan more for me, showed she had emotions; she cries beforehand. Although I agree it is rather amazing how coldly she presents the DR choice to you, even if you're "in deep like". So she clearly decides not to show any emotional side once presenting the "bargain".



And then ... she says she came along with me and Alistair mostly because Flemeth wanted her to get pregnant by one of us? Explains why she asks us to the tent so quickly. That kinda blasted the romance out of the relationship, again, except she said she developed feelings, anyway.

[UpiH]

Mayhaps Morrigan has just an unique concept of love, identifying love with marriage as in real life nowadays: pre-marital sex is OK, sex in marriage... hmmm...



Kinda like 't would be scandalous if some Miss Universum opened up revealing that her husband is the father of her children.



I personally see those "romances" as very narrow and superficial, just some weary old romance concepts, chiches turned upside down. Leliana not willing to have sex until 100 % of approval, Morrigan not after 90%.

[guytza]

Barbarossa2010 wrote...


Thanks guytza, I get that. 

I just wanted you to know that I did free your brother elf from Howe's dungeon and summarily executed that human who, I didn't really know what he was guilty of, but just looked like he was really deserving of it.  Oh, and I did shut down rather violently the operations of the Tevinter Imperium to enslave your people in the Alienage outside of the Denerim market, although apperently Morrigan seemed to have little problem with it and gave me -3 disapproval when I executed their ring leader Caladrius!   

Hopefully this will demostrate my good will and willingness to work cooperatively and honestly with your people.

Signed,

Barbarossa

Andaran atish'an Barbarossa,

While it is appreciated that you took such an active role in the City Elvhen of the Alienage and the discretions against them, I think you may be mistaking any kinship the Dalish feel towards those Elvhen that forsake their freedom and sense of Vhen'alas to live in the Alienage. The Dalish are a free people that would never accept living as the City Elvhen do. If those domesticated lapdogs of Denerim wish to bare their teeth once more amongst the Dalish we do not turn them away, however I would consider them neither kith nor kin if they opt to live in chains when freedom is available. I've heard tales of the events surrounding the uprising in the alienage, how the Shemlen lords attempted to take with force those women that were to Bond with their true partners. It brought no small amount of joy to my heart that swords were drawn and Shem blood spilled in the noble cause of setting things right, and hearing that the culprit met his end in such a deserving fashion is wonderous news indeed. You have given the City Elvhen an opportunity at freedom should they wish to take it. A choice to become one with the Elvhenan. I shall speak to the Hahren on this, and should you find a Dalish arrow pointing at your heart, speak your name and "Shue shah tauthau toetoi thuet" and you may find safety where death is certain.

I can understand that the da'len of Asha'Belannar, Morrigan, has a certain skewed outlook on life and thus dissaproved of your actions, she knows not the hope and value of Clan having none herself. I feel a certain abelas for the road she has to take and I do hope her new role as mamae will change her heart. Da'len have that effect on us. At the very least, should the rumors be true, this choice can grant you the opportunities of life instead of the finality of death, a choice that always carries a certain simple dignity.

Ma serannas,
Guytza

(Just my take on the Dalish outlook    http://dragonage.wik.../Elven_Language for translations, whee that was fun.)

[guytza]

blademaster7 wrote...

Well said Sabriana. Here I thought the people who felt like that are very few.
Now allow me to quote the part I liked the most.

Sabriana wrote...

First she is a great friend of my PC, telling her that she is the only friend she ever had/trusted/etc.

Then she becomes predatory, manipulative, cold, and hedgy about her agenda and the baby.

After getting what she wants, she once again becomes the great friend.

Something is askew here, and I don't think I can ever have one of my PCs agree to talk Alistair/Loghain into fathering a child. Sorry, but with a request so huge, and with such large implications "That's all you need to know", and "I will say nothing more than that" just don't cut it.

A very fine point indeed.

Allow me to add that if you say no she walks out and leaves with a cold look in her eyes. After all these months "helping" you out with the blight she decides that it's better to give up the old-god child(which means everything to her) and let her friend/love die. And the reason? She doesn't want you to know her plans. She would rather remain silent instead of making a last ditch effort to convince you. That alone is reason enough for me to say "no" and go slay the archdemon my self, or let Loghain redeem him self knowing that Ferelden is safe and there are no loose ends.

Indeed a fine point, I will admit my own self preservation instinct kicked in and my response was essentially, "So you can make it so that I dont die? My only question is 'why are your pants still on'." Plus the story-teller in me can see that this is big point in the story, one that was paramount and long in the telling not simply an add in, so it makes sense to me to find a way to jump through that hoop.

[pmlour]

I have a mod that makes Morrigan think I am a HM and so she sleeps with me I live and she goes off thinking she is with child. A player played.

[Sable Rhapsody]

guytza wrote...
Indeed a fine point, I will admit my own self preservation instinct kicked in and my response was essentially, "So you can make it so that I dont die? My only question is 'why are your pants still on'." Plus the story-teller in me can see that this is big point in the story, one that was paramount and long in the telling not simply an add in, so it makes sense to me to find a way to jump through that hoop.

Yeah, self-preservation and survival vs. sacrifice is a huge theme in the DA:O world, and they don't necessarily fit cleanly into evil and good.  Is it morally right to demand so much sacrifice of one person--namely the PC--whose life can epically suck in DA:O?  Is it so wrong for the Dalish to kill intruders on sight to preserve their own people and way of life?  It's an interesting morality dynamic, and I love the fact that it can really screw you over.  In most RPGs, the noble and self-sacrificing path nets you the best results.  In DA:O, it can really mess you up.

Also, I developed some trust for Morrigan.  Do I think Morrigan can be a manipulative, cold-hearted, power-hungry witch?  Of course.  But I don't think she's actively malicious either.  Morrigan isn't a Xanatos Gambit sort of person a la Loghain.  She wants freedom and independence and power for herself, but not the "MWAHAHA BOW BEFORE ME" kind of thing that a villain like, say, Darth Malak had.