244 réponses à ce sujet

[Ocelot83]

Probably the most logical conclusion is that with "default Shepard" they all survive, that way they can put them all in the game without too much problem, and since ME 3 will probably not be as character driven as ME 2 squadmates living/dying isn't that critical.

A more thorough post about the subject at:

http://social.biowar...05/index/918247

[SpockLives]

Madecologist wrote...

By your logic, everyone lives. I am serious. I had my whole squad survive. I even did a incomplete playthrough and my whole squad survives. I did a quick play through and my whole squad survives.
People only die if you are sloppy or make bad decisions. It is hard to glean what character is expandable if they die from mistakes.
Every character has an easy death. Do not get their loyalty, bring to boss fight. Done. I do not see any character being more killable or more suriviable. It seems some might have a higher chance, but that is only if you make bad decisions.

I don't doubt your squad survived, but the part I underlined is not the universal truth you are claiming it is.  Mordin died randomly in the Hold the Line segment for so many people that your reasoning doesn't quite hold up.  It took many threads on these forums before people figured out the ways to keep Mordin alive.  Perhaps you and many others got lucky enough to make the "right" choices on your first play through.  However, many other players lost a loyal Mordin for what was (at that time) no apparent reason.  Only hindsight makes the "right" decisions obvious.

[epoch_]

crimzontearz wrote...

I must start with the premise that I never let anyone die in my playthroughs...but many, I see, try to precisely remove (read kill) the squaddies they dislike....which made me notice something. If you pay attention to the patterns you can see Bioware paving the way for a safe passage for some characters into ME3....and making it plain some are meant to return only as cameos.

take miranda...even if disloyal she is virtually unkillable in the suicide mission, to the point that the only safe way to kill her off is to take her to the suicide mission while disloyal. Take even the seeker swarm segment...the only way to let her die then is to make the game bug out and make the other squaddie vanish....and even then she reappears at the end of the sequence alive and well. She can't even be picked for the vent run even if she has tech skills (and thus can't die there)


now take characters like legion, Mordin, Tali or Thane....they can die before the Normandy Lands, they can die performing their tasks, they can die if you pick the wrong fireteam leader or worse even RANDOMLY.

I'm just saying Bioware is making clear who they "wanted" to survive and made sure that short of runs intended to end in a bloodbath most playthrougs would end with them alive...perhaps to justify a full fledged return in ME3

No, those characters seem to die a lot because they're the most "squishy" (a dev even used this term). Characters like grunt and garrus are more your standard fighters, so their primary role is holding the line.

Its a good theory, but it's wrong.

[Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien]

Vaenier wrote...

That is wierd, because Legion and Tali are much more important characters than Miranda.
I disagree with your argument.

Except just to add further to the OPs comment.

Unlike Tali and Legion, Miranda is part of your team from the get go. Tali and Legion don't event need to be recruited. If they were that important, Tali would have surely been in the initial set of dossiers, although to do that would've meant changing the story a bit because TIM states he needs to look into the idea of having Tali as a potential squadmate (to some extent I think that is a nice little nod to how Bioware was surprised at how popular Tali was with all her crazy fans). Legion, if he was that important then why have it that before you even get to properly talk to him there is an option to ship him out?

Yes I know there is the whole argument of how instrumental they could be with regards to sorting out the Geth/Quarian thing, but really that to some extent doesn't need to be Shepherd's duty to sort that mess out. That puts him in the age old stereotypical situation of being 'the only one to solve everyones problems'. Which if I remember rightly Bioware did make a dig at that in one of the missions, which again shows their sense of humour seeing as it is making fun of themselves to an extent as this has usually been the case in a few of their RPGs where the leading character has to resolve something before he/she can get a person/group to join his/her cause in dealing with the main threat.

Thane and Samara to some extent obviously fall into this category too as does Grunt. Thane isn't really needed anywhere in the 'Suicide Mission' other than him possibly being less likely to die than some of the others if holding the defence line. Samara, great biotic, but if she was integral she would probably be swapping spots with Jack in the Dossier situation. Jack to some extent furthers the 'Anti-Cerberus' potential team that Shep could create.

Grunt, well in the mission you were actually going into it just to speak to and acquire the services of Okeer. You don't have to release him from the lifepod.

Edit: Now am not saying they won't get axed, as I've said before in topics of this nature, ME3 with it being the finale of the trilogy will allow Bioware to release the blocks that would put people out of the team. Sure some people might get cameoed, but I don't think it is as many as some people believe/wish.

Modifié par Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien, 25 février 2010 - 04:27 .

[Barquiel]

I doubt Tali or Legion have a huge impact on the storyline in ME3



- Legion can be sold to Cerberus

- Tali has no political influence if she is exiled

- and...they can die

[Madecologist]

Again I will repeat, I seen games were only Miranda died or she died with a select few, and not done on purpose. She honestly died because of a bad decision on the player's behalf. I am not disagreeing with the notion, just that Miranda is not wearing 3 inches of plotinium armour that a lot of people think she does.

By placing Miranda's "immortality" in question, which debunks a major premise of the initial arguement. A single bad decision can kill any character and every character gets the cross hair put on their head more than once. Miranda included.

[epoch_]

Barquiel wrote...

I doubt Tali or Legion have a huge impact on the storyline in ME3

- Legion can be sold to Cerberus
- Tali has no political influence if she is exiled
- and...they can die

If you got tali exiled, or sold legion to cerberus, your connection to those two factions are gone. And potentially, your army against the reapers is that much smaller.

Whats so hard about this?

Modifié par epoch_, 25 février 2010 - 04:29 .

[screwoffreg]

That is an interesting point OP and I believe you are probably right. Miranda seems critical to the next game and she has NO incentive to leave the Normandy like some of the other characters might. She is your second in command, after all.

With that said, Bioware makes it so obvious and relatively easy to save your ENTIRE crew I imagine that almost everyone will play SOME role in ME 3 unless you are such an incredible screw up most of your crew dies. The game basically tells you who should be in what roles and repeatedly various characters tell you about how important loyalty is amongst your team. If you fail at the suicide mission, either you weren't listening at all or were trying to get people killed.

With Tali is my LI in two of my games, I'd love for her to be in the squad and very important to the plot, and I don't think necessarily she will be "sidelined".  Let us be honest here though, there are some characters that are absolutely NECESSARY.  Liara, Ashley/Kaiden, Miranda, and perhaps one or two more than seem invulnerable or nearly so.

Modifié par screwoffreg, 25 février 2010 - 04:29 .

[Vaenier]

Barquiel wrote...

- and...they can die

Miranda can die, Jacob can die, Garrus can die... we know... EVERYBODY HAS THE CHANCE OF DIEING. dont use that as an argument to their importance in ME3.

[Shoko86]

If this is true then they obviously want Garrus to die. In my play through, I planned it for to be only Shep and Garrus to be alive at the end, but some how Garrus dies no matter what.. so Shep would die too. I replayed the ending 4 times, even sent Garrus back with he crew, Edi said he made it ok, and at the end Shep dies... and you see a grave for Garrus too. WTF? I hope this is a glitch and not due to Bioware not thinking this through. :/

[Computron2000]

Ok, some people seem to be missing some points in the OP's post

If you go in with no upgrades,
i) Jack dies if no hull plating upgrade
ii) Tali dies if no kinetic barrier upgrades, Legion dies if you take Tali vs the occulus, Thane dies if you take both, Garrus takes the rear of the queue if Legion is sold and Tali/Thane in the occulus team
iii) Thane dies if you never upgraded weapons, Garrus if Thane already dead.

Once into the suicide mission proper, everyone dies equally except Miranda. In the final hold the line, squishy people die first with Mordin at the head of the pack (Oh Miranda is either 2nd or 3rd squishy, so she commonly dies here as well)

Also in the biotic barrier segment with a half biotic or unloyal Jack/Samara, i find Thane and Legion dying when paired up with others. Another poster noted Jack dies then as well.

So Jackx2, Tali, Garrusx2, Legionx2, Thanex3 and Mordin die slightly more than the rest.

As a side note, Jack then Garrus then Jacob questions having Miranda as team leader on the first fire mission

Modifié par Computron2000, 25 février 2010 - 08:37 .

[epoch_]

Vaenier wrote...

Barquiel wrote...

- and...they can die

Miranda can die, Jacob can die, Garrus can die... we know... EVERYBODY HAS THE CHANCE OF DIEING. dont use that as an argument to their importance in ME3.

her derp, but the peples that dyes in me1, waren't immportent to me2, har dur

[screwoffreg]

Yeah, I think people are getting the wrong message from the OP. It is not as if the characters in ME 3 are UNIMPORTANT. You are very likely to miss huge parts of the story if certain characters like Tali and Legion die/are not recruited. Look at the Wrex situation. He isn't "critical" to have alive, but without him a large part of what makes the Krogan homeworld interesting and unique fades away. I also imagine the Krogan interaction in ME 3 will be very different depending on if Wrex lived and Grunt survives as well.



And damnit, there had better be good endings for ALL LI's. I have a feeling Bioware may try to force us back into our ME 1 romances. In some cases, not bad, in others no thanks.

[Shoko86]

Computron2000 wrote...


ii) Thane dies if you never upgraded weapons (can't remember who takes his place if he's on the occulus team)

Thane is the only one who can die there I think. I took him to fight the occulus and he stil died.

[aksoileau]

Most will be in ME3 because I think most players want their team to survive and only watch them die for fun or just to see what happens. Bioware practically gives you step by step instructions on how to survive the suicide mission. Everyone wants a "complete" ME3 so IMO most people will want to import a ME2 save with everyone surviving.

[Computron2000]

Shoko86 wrote...
Thane is the only one who can die there I think. I took him to fight the occulus and he stil died.

Ok, thanks for the info. Sucks to be him

[Vaenier]

aksoileau wrote...

Most will be in ME3 because I think most players want their team to survive and only watch them die for fun or just to see what happens. Bioware practically gives you step by step instructions on how to survive the suicide mission. Everyone wants a "complete" ME3 so IMO most people will want to import a ME2 save with everyone surviving.

Exactly. People who are guna bother to import their characters are guna have their teams survive. those who dont care to get their team through will just make a new save.
If someone wants to use a save with only two squadmates, then they have to deal with their actions of killing them.

[Ocelot83]

Barquiel wrote...

I doubt Tali or Legion have a huge impact on the storyline in ME3

- Legion can be sold to Cerberus
- Tali has no political influence if she is exiled
- and...they can die

I think that Legion will appear even if you sold him to Cerberus, I believe he will be one of the most important characters in ME 3, because the Geth are such an important race in the games.

[redguppie]

I would have to say that squadmates in ME3 will be similar to those in 2, for the most part modular and having no real impact on the main plot. That way they can bring back everyone but the loss of any 1 person doesn't create a huge problem for the plot. It seems logical that the only ones to have a significant impact plot wise would be Liara and Vermire survivor since they were saved from the possibility of dieing at all.



With any squadmate in the second life isn't a sure thing so to say that just because someone is more likely to die doesnt improve or hurt their chances of returning.

[epoch_]

screwoffreg wrote...

Yeah, I think people are getting the wrong message from the OP. It is not as if the characters in ME 3 are UNIMPORTANT. You are very likely to miss huge parts of the story if certain characters like Tali and Legion die/are not recruited. Look at the Wrex situation. He isn't "critical" to have alive, but without him a large part of what makes the Krogan homeworld interesting and unique fades away. I also imagine the Krogan interaction in ME 3 will be very different depending on if Wrex lived and Grunt survives as well.

And damnit, there had better be good endings for ALL LI's. I have a feeling Bioware may try to force us back into our ME 1 romances. In some cases, not bad, in others no thanks.

If this is true, then there is no reason not to do the extra bit of voice recording and to give them a skillset. Because that's all it takes. A couple things.

1) ME3 isn't ME2. They can have a load of squad mates that even some people won't see without wasting too much work. Each squad mate isn't going to have multiple missions focued around them. They just need dialogue and a skill set. Voila, you got a squad mate.

2) They aren't going to bring back miranda as a squad mate and not the other love interests. (replace mira with x LI, if you like) If one of them comes back, they are all going to come back. It simply isn't fair to fans of every other love interest that is not included. The ****storm Bioware would have from its fans would be epic. Everyone wants to take it to the reapers with their LI by their side.

3) Why should they punish the majority of fans who care enough and decide to save everyone by catering to the experience of the minority of fans who didn't care enough to at least make one save where everyone gets out alive.

It simply wouldn't make any sense.

/rant

Modifié par epoch_, 25 février 2010 - 04:42 .

[Madecologist]

SpockLives wrote...

I don't doubt your squad survived, but the part I underlined is not the universal truth you are claiming it is.  Mordin died randomly in the Hold the Line segment for so many people that your reasoning doesn't quite hold up.  It took many threads on these forums before people figured out the ways to keep Mordin alive.  Perhaps you and many others got lucky enough to make the "right" choices on your first play through.  However, many other players lost a loyal Mordin for what was (at that time) no apparent reason.  Only hindsight makes the "right" decisions obvious.

Yet my Mordin, unloyal survived my Line. Seen him survive in all my friend's games too. You are missing my point, that is waving our hands and saying "look Mordin tends to die because a lot of people did not know about the Line mechanic" or "Miranda is easy to keep alive" is not proof on who will stay in the game with a significant role. I never claimed them to be universal truths, I said a lot of people including me had an easy time (or lucky time in your defination) to make them survive.

Also, lucky choice on my first play through? Now you are assuming a lot. If you even read what I wrote, all my play throughs had them survive (I said so in my comment). Even before I touched a forum, even before I read these threads. So I was lucky in several successive and in none perfect playthroughs? Perhaps I was, does not discredit the outcome. That is a lot of luck there. I am aware that Holding the Line was nebulous and even I did not understand it either. But that doesn't serve as proof that some characters are wearing plotinium.

Your own arguement can be turned against the OP as well. If my play experience is not reflective, so is his. If he finds Miranda hard to kill, that means nothing either.

[Nozybidaj]

screwoffreg wrote...

Yeah, I think people are getting the wrong message from the OP. It is not as if the characters in ME 3 are UNIMPORTANT. You are very likely to miss huge parts of the story if certain characters like Tali and Legion die/are not recruited. Look at the Wrex situation. He isn't "critical" to have alive, but without him a large part of what makes the Krogan homeworld interesting and unique fades away. I also imagine the Krogan interaction in ME 3 will be very different depending on if Wrex lived and Grunt survives as well.

Meh, not much changed, or so I heard.  Instead of seeing Wrex, you see his brother and miss a few lines of "reunion" dialogue.  Everything else is basically the same.  I feel this would be a fine solution to use in ME3 for the ME2 characters. 

They shouldn't have any sort of role that isn't easily replacable with a generic NPC.  If the ME1 LI's were removed from the game so that they can be "saved" for ME3 it would be rather disappointing to see all these folks in ME2 show up with their own "big roles" as that would completely defeat the purpose of removing the ME1 characters in ME2.

And damnit, there had better be good endings for ALL LI's. I have a feeling Bioware may try to force us back into our ME 1 romances. In some cases, not bad, in others no thanks.

I sure hope not.  Staying faithful is supposed to have a "payoff" in ME3.  If they just turn around and let all the cheaters just kiss and make up in ME3 what was the point?  I hope the "cheaters" are more or less stuck with the choices they made.  While those who choose to take on a new LI in ME2 deserve a good ending with their new LI those who stay with the ME1 LI's should get something really epic.

Modifié par Nozybidaj, 25 février 2010 - 04:46 .

[Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien]

Shoko86 wrote...

Computron2000 wrote...


ii) Thane dies if you never upgraded weapons (can't remember who takes his place if he's on the occulus team)

Thane is the only one who can die there I think. I took him to fight the occulus and he stil died.

Unless of course you never recruited him

I think Garrus is next on the list for the no cannons  upgrades bit... ahh well, guess he never calibrated them cannons, tsk Turians, can never do anything right

[Nozybidaj]

Vaenier wrote...

Exactly. People who are guna bother to import their characters are guna have their teams survive. those who dont care to get their team through will just make a new save.
If someone wants to use a save with only two squadmates, then they have to deal with their actions of killing them.

My ME3 import is going to have a large majority of the ME2 team killed on purpose.  I'm more than willing to "deal" with the consequences of killing them, which should have a rather insignificant impact on ME3.

[Lvl20DM]

Striker1246 wrote...

ad but true, though i doubt all this worrying about squadmates is really nessessary- its the final game in the trilogy, bioware won't give any characters the cameo axe in my opinion. They just won't add any new ones. according to your arguement, tali is more likely slated for a cameo then miranda. can you IMAGINE the back lash from this community if bioware took away tali from the tali fans? simply put, not gonna happen.

Like the Liara or Ashley backlash? I'm sorry, but while it might be a good idea to read your fanbase, you shouldn't use them as the sole basis for your decisions as far as story is concerned. Being put in a non-squadmate role does not equal the "cameo axe". I actually really liked the role that Wrex played in ME 2; it made the trip to Tuchanka more personal. Given her popularity, I would think that Tali will have an important role in ME 3 (assuming she survived). That doesn't mean she'll be a squad-mate.

I had at first thought that some characters would only die if Shep died. It turns out that any of them can die, though some do die more easily than others (Miranda does seem to be the toughest). More than just voice acting goes in to making these squad-mates.