244 réponses à ce sujet

[Lvl20DM]

The Romances are part of the game, but they aren't a central element. It is optional content that you might not see if you choose to avoid it or don't talk to your squad much. This is true in both ME 1 & 2.



Honestly, it feels like the ME 2 romances, while interesting, are written to be temporary or fleeting. I think they will have an impact on the next game, but only probably as much or slightly more than the ME 1 romances did in ME 2.

[Twigginater]

I do think in the next game Mordin and Thane were easy to die, partly because it's likely niether will be back if the game is set say 2 years in the future.

[Kyero]

To answer the topics name



Who ever is alive in the end of your game.

[Ecael]

Twigginater wrote...

I do think in the next game Mordin and Thane were easy to die, partly because it's likely niether will be back if the game is set say 2 years in the future.

One person suggested that Mordin is a good cameo as the head scientist for the Normandy, but he won't be able to fight. You'll just get to talk to him about scale-itch and stuff.

Thane is someone I could see being bedridden and unable to fight by ME3.

[Madecologist]

Kyero wrote...

To answer the topics name

Who ever is alive in the end of your game.

You win the thread. I am not being sarcastic. I mean it. I think that was the point of trying to save your squad members. Hard to imagine Miranda will have a pivitol role in everyone's game when not everyone will have a living Miranda. They can't really impose a character on anyone, because not everyone will have the character. Unless you have a complete surivial, in which case everyone that has that will have everyone.

Modifié par Madecologist, 25 février 2010 - 08:46 .

[Ecael]

Lvl20DM wrote...
Honestly, it feels like the ME 2 romances, while interesting, are written to be temporary or fleeting. I think they will have an impact on the next game, but only probably as much or slightly more than the ME 1 romances did in ME 2.

All of the romances are written to be temporary or fleeting. If it was permanent, Kaidan/Ashley/Liara would have dropped everything and joined Shepard after he came back from the dead, Cerberus/Shadow Broker be damned.

Unfortunately, Mass Effect is not the space-soldier version of the show Grey's Anatomy.

[Ecael]

Madecologist wrote...

Kyero wrote...

To answer the topics name

Who ever is alive in the end of your game.

You win the thread. I am not being sarcastic. I mean it. I think that was the point of trying to save your squad members. Hard to imagine Miranda will have a pivitol role in everyone's game when not everyone will have a living Miranda. They can't really impose a character on anyone, because not everyone will have all the character. Unless you have a complete surivial, in which case everyone that has that has everyone.

The argument here is whether they're going to be an actual squadmate or cameo appearance.

I posted several factors on the first page that could decide whether or not a character is going to be a squadmate or a cameo.

[redguppie]

Ecael wrote...

. BioWare doesn't write romance novels - they write for video games. People are expecting way too much out of specific characters. BioWare does a great job developing characters so that the player can either sympathize or emphasize with them as Shepard, without automatically falling in love with them.

I never said romance novel, I said story.  And what they are making is an interactive story.  Different way of telling their audience doesnt change the fact that are, in the end, simply allowing you to view thier work of fiction.  Because they want you to connect with the fictional people they use several different ways to help you relate to the characters.  One of the most common ways of doing this is to use romance because regardless of who you are, were you come from, and what you do, at one point or another you have dealt with that feeling or emotion.  Simply having a romance in a novel does not a romance novel make, in fact just about every work of fiction(which is what this is) has that plot device in it somewhere. 

And the reason it isso contested and talked about is because everyone has an opinion on a subject like that.  Thier opinion on it is ussually very personal and deeply ingrained as well.

edit at this point there has been so many threads on this one subject that everyone is pretty much just doing it for ****s and giggles.  anyone who has an opinion on this can find soneone to agree with them and plenty of arguements to back up either everyone, no one, or just a few from each.  But it does help to pass the time so why stop now

Modifié par redguppie, 25 février 2010 - 08:37 .

[shinobi602]

Ecael wrote...

All of the romances are written to be temporary or fleeting. If it was permanent, Kaidan/Ashley/Liara would have dropped everything and joined Shepard after he came back from the dead, Cerberus/Shadow Broker be damned.

Unfortunately, Mass Effect is not the space-soldier version of the show Grey's Anatomy.

Bioware specifically stated why Kaidan/Ash and Liara don't join you in ME2. So they can ensure their survival into ME3. They also directly said one of the reasons is so you can continue the romance into ME3. This is not temporary. In fact, the ME1 romances were not flings like some believe, as the game took place over a course of months (as evidenced by Ashley saying it).

[Ecael]

redguppie wrote...

Ecael wrote...

. BioWare doesn't write romance novels - they write for video games. People are expecting way too much out of specific characters. BioWare does a great job developing characters so that the player can either sympathize or emphasize with them as Shepard, without automatically falling in love with them.

I never said romance novel, I said story.  And what they are making is an interactive story.  Different way of telling their audience doesnt change the fact that are, in the end, simply allowing you to view thier work of fiction.  Because they want you to connect with the fictional people they use several different ways to help you relate to the characters.  One of the most common ways of doing this is to use romance because regardless of who you are, were you come from, and what you do, at one point or another you have dealt with that feeling or emotion.  Simply having a romance in a novel does not a romance novel make, in fact just about every work of fiction(which is what this is) has that plot device in it somewhere. 

And the reason it isso contested and talked about is because everyone has an opinion on a subject like that.  Thier opinion on it is ussually very personal and deeply ingrained as well.

BioWare's current work of fiction (Mass Effect 2) allows you to connect with the fictional people through the 11 (soon 12) loyalty missions. You spend most of the game either talking to the characters normally or doing something for them. They did not put much effort into romance in either ME2 or ME1.

[epoch_]

Ecael wrote...

Madecologist wrote...

Kyero wrote...

To answer the topics name

Who ever is alive in the end of your game.

You win the thread. I am not being sarcastic. I mean it. I think that was the point of trying to save your squad members. Hard to imagine Miranda will have a pivitol role in everyone's game when not everyone will have a living Miranda. They can't really impose a character on anyone, because not everyone will have all the character. Unless you have a complete surivial, in which case everyone that has that has everyone.

The argument here is whether they're going to be an actual squadmate or cameo appearance.

I posted several factors on the first page that could decide whether or not a character is going to be a squadmate or a cameo.

I agree with your criteria on the front page. How do you think they will handle the "reset"?

Will there be a reset? Will we simply start at lvl30, or whatever your old level was and have a max level of 60? Perhaps no explanation, and just start at lvl 1 again?

I can't see them killing shepard again. I give that close to a 0% chance of happening.

[redguppie]

Ecael wrote...

redguppie wrote...

Ecael wrote...

. BioWare doesn't write romance novels - they write for video games. People are expecting way too much out of specific characters. BioWare does a great job developing characters so that the player can either sympathize or emphasize with them as Shepard, without automatically falling in love with them.

I never said romance novel, I said story.  And what they are making is an interactive story.  Different way of telling their audience doesnt change the fact that are, in the end, simply allowing you to view thier work of fiction.  Because they want you to connect with the fictional people they use several different ways to help you relate to the characters.  One of the most common ways of doing this is to use romance because regardless of who you are, were you come from, and what you do, at one point or another you have dealt with that feeling or emotion.  Simply having a romance in a novel does not a romance novel make, in fact just about every work of fiction(which is what this is) has that plot device in it somewhere. 

And the reason it isso contested and talked about is because everyone has an opinion on a subject like that.  Thier opinion on it is ussually very personal and deeply ingrained as well.

BioWare's current work of fiction (Mass Effect 2) allows you to connect with the fictional people through the 11 (soon 12) loyalty missions. You spend most of the game either talking to the characters normally or doing something for them. They did not put much effort into romance in either ME2 or ME1.

But it is there and it was planned from the beginning.  That is the difference between a story with a romance and a story based on romance.  Both have the element in it, just one supports the plot and adds depth to the involved characters and the other is the plot.  I don't think anyone believes this is a romance story, but they do see its place within the story

[Throw_this_away]

Nozybidaj wrote...

Personally, aside from Tali and maybe Thane, the rest of the ME2 romances were more or less just one night stands anyway.  Sex in the engine room?  Really?  Reach and flexibility?  Really?  If this is just about sex why didn't you just ****ing say so?  Really?

The girl in the cat suit dropped the "L" word... and got pretty upset regarding the possibility of Shep dying.  So what if she is confident in the sac.

And our beloved turian... I think he likes femshep more than he will admit.  I didn't buy his writing it off as stress relief one bit. 

And Tali has flexability too... her inborn rickets alows her legs to bend without trying. 

Modifié par Throw_this_away, 25 février 2010 - 08:43 .

[Ecael]

shinobi602 wrote...

Ecael wrote...

All of the romances are written to be temporary or fleeting. If it was permanent, Kaidan/Ashley/Liara would have dropped everything and joined Shepard after he came back from the dead, Cerberus/Shadow Broker be damned.

Unfortunately, Mass Effect is not the space-soldier version of the show Grey's Anatomy.

Bioware specifically stated why Kaidan/Ash and Liara don't join you in ME2. So they can ensure their survival into ME3. They also directly said one of the reasons is so you can continue the romance into ME3. This is not temporary. In fact, the ME1 romances were not flings like some believe, as the game took place over a course of months (as evidenced by Ashley saying it).

Mass Effect 2 takes place over the course of approximately two and a half years. If you want to go by an in-game timeline, you would think at some point that at least one of them would get over Shepard.

As I said before, I would consider it a permanent relationship if they had any kind of a decent role in ME2 - but they didn't. They're as good as missing for an entire game. If someone picked up a copy of Mass Effect 2 without ever playing the first, they couldn't possibly care about Liara, Kaidan or Ashley.

Trying to guess an ulterior motive behind their reduced involvement, I would say that Kaidan/Ashley were written off because they couldn't decide what to do with them (should some playthroughs have Kaidan squadmate and Ashley squadmate for the other?). Liara was written off because they wanted to introduce a new Asari commando squadmate. Actually, they could have wanted to introduce more human squadmates, too - thus the drastic change.

Will BioWare come through in ME3 and actually develop a good romantic story? Maybe. But ME1/ME2 shows no evidence of it.

Modifié par Ecael, 25 février 2010 - 08:46 .

[shinobi602]

Ecael wrote...

As I said before, I would consider it a permanent relationship if they had any kind of a decent role in ME2 - but they didn't. They're as good as missing for an entire game. If I could guess an ulterior motive behind their story, I would say that Kaidan/Ashley were written off because they couldn't decide what to do with them (should some playthroughs have Kaidan squadmate and Ashley squadmate for the other?). Liara was written off because they wanted to introduce a new Asari commando squadmate. Actually, they could have wanted to introduce more human squadmates, too - thus the drastic change.

Will BioWare come through in ME3 and actually develop a good romantic story? Maybe. But ME1/ME2 shows no evidence of it.

But Bioware specifically stated why Ashley/Kaidan and Liara had the roles they did in ME2.....

[Zulu_DFA]

epoch_ wrote...

Ecael wrote...

Madecologist wrote...

Kyero wrote...

To answer the topics name

Who ever is alive in the end of your game.

You win the thread. I am not being sarcastic. I mean it. I think that was the point of trying to save your squad members. Hard to imagine Miranda will have a pivitol role in everyone's game when not everyone will have a living Miranda. They can't really impose a character on anyone, because not everyone will have all the character. Unless you have a complete surivial, in which case everyone that has that has everyone.

The argument here is whether they're going to be an actual squadmate or cameo appearance.

I posted several factors on the first page that could decide whether or not a character is going to be a squadmate or a cameo.

I agree with your criteria on the front page. How do you think they will handle the "reset"?

Will there be a reset? Will we simply start at lvl30, or whatever your old level was and have a max level of 60? Perhaps no explanation, and just start at lvl 1 again?

I can't see them killing shepard again. I give that close to a 0% chance of happening.

About "reset". I think it's inevitable.

ME3 opening plot twist requirements
Requirements:

- Sever ties with Cerberus, since open confrontation with TIM is one of the possible endings of ME2.

- Sever ties with the Alliance, since they've been already quite severed and some players are happy with it.

- Cut off the surviving crew, including LIs, since every one of them is expendable on the suicide mission and are likely to appear only as cameos at certain points of ME3.*

- Strip Shepard of all weapons, skills, etc., since no doubt ME3 has to be another playable as a stand-alone shooter/RPG. At the same time fill in the newbies on the whole Mass Effect story.

- Continue the Council's numbness about the Reapers and Shepard's story, since the moment they finally believe and start doing something about the Reaper threat, Shepard's super heroics in mounting the war effort will become redundant and unnecessary.

- Provide Shepard with an immediate goal and a couple of squadmates for his first mission.

- Something involving facial reconstruction.


So my version is: in the opening sequence of ME3 Shepard stands before the Alliance's court martial (Council's trial) being charged high treason (going a rogue spectre) for his affiliation with Cerberus. It is revealed that Ashley Williams / Kaidan Alenko (possibly after becoming a spectre) had tracked Shepard down, apprehended him and brought to "justice". Some past actions (aka choices) are referenced (aka opening quiz) and Shepard gets a life in prison sentence / death penalty.

Now there are possibilities:
1. In rides the calvalry, be it Liara (Have you met an asari commando before?) or Joker+NormanEDI (He can fire a rifle now, right? Seems Cerberus did some upgrades to his bones too.) or Aria (+Anto, long anticipated by some people batarian squaddie) or Geth (Shepard-Commander?) and Shepard escapes. On the way out he meets Ashley/Kaidan and can recruit or kill her/him [Renegade action +50].
2. The Reaper invasion commences right in the middle of the Shepard's trial, alarms go off everywhere, everything explodes and he escapes with the help of Ashley/Kaidan (that'll be a boring one).
3. Anderson & ... [surprise!] Udina secretly pull Shepard out of jail (a quick and easy one) and kick him towards stopping the Reapers.

As to "facial reconstruction", Shepard with his new status of an escaped convict may want to undergo a plastic surgery, right after his escape.

________________
* This does not mean they won't be present in the game. On the contrary, I am sure most of the surviving squadmates will be present. Only they will be recruited, full-time of temporarily, or become a Dr. Chackwas-like NPC, or have just have a 5-minute cameo at different points of the story. Surely it's not like you're going to have 12 squadmates from the start.
NB: there are somewhat between 2 and 16 thousand possible combinations of surviving squadmates, and making the expendables an important part of the ME3 plot may leave serious holes in it for some players, or force them to replay ME2, revealing its true nature of "not a suicide mission to stop the Collectors, but earn the save-all-henchmen achievement" (and that'll kill the franchise, IMO).

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 25 février 2010 - 08:48 .

[Pauravi]

I personally think that this whole line of reasoning is irrelevant.

It may also mean that Tali and Legion are instrumental in resolving the Geth/Quarian conflict next game, and Bioware is simply making that into a difficult situation to resolve. If you need one or both of those characters for it, then your decisions at the end of ME2 have a lot of weight in terms of the way events play out in ME3.

[TyDurden13]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Madecologist wrote...

Also to dispell Miranda is harder to kill. I have a friend where Miranda was the only person to die. He did not do it on purpose. He was trying to get everyone to live and only she died. He was shocked. Yeah.. she is hard to kill.....

I agree with this.  On my second and third playthroughs Miranda was the only non-specialist/fireteam leader to die.  She was disloyal when I had her hold the line and she was the only casualty for that segment.  This arguement that she is harder to kill belies my personal experience.  She is easy to kill, just have her hold the line after the specialist and fireteam leader die as well as taking her to the final boss fight while disloyal.  Yes there are less chances for her to die but the two chances I've seen are easy to achieve.

This does not dispell anything - and no offense but your personal experience is 100% anecdotal.  We know she is possible to kill.   And, as the game has millions of players and tens of millions of playthroughs, there will be cases where she happens to die even if no-one else does.  The fact remains that she is the hardest to kill, the least likely to die, has the highest survival rate, however you want to say it.  We know this because we have been analyzing the endgame scenario through dozens of permutations, not based on a couple of random playthroughs.

Ecael has some good points.  Personally, I want to see many of the characters continue because I still feel their stories have somewhere to go, not necessarily because I want to continue romances.  For example, Mordin is my hands-down favorite character - but honestly he feels like he's lived his life, had his adventures, and is towards the end of his story, so I wouldn't be devasteted to see a reduced role for him in ME3.  Same for characters like Zaeed, Thane, and Samara.  People like Grunt, Jack, Miranda, Jacob, etc feel like they still have lots to do IMO, and I'd like to see satisfying conclusios to their arcs where applicable.

[Madecologist]

Ecael wrote...

I posted several factors on the first page that could decide whether or not a character is going to be a squadmate or a cameo.

I saw you post, yeah your factors are sound logic. I am okay with that. I am more railing againt the OP logic that the characters fragility/survivability of the suicide mission is an indication of that role. Since I think the fragility and survivablity of characters is different for each person and someone's personal play experience can not be used as a measure (because if I use mine and my friend's I would have to say Miranda is the most fragile and Mordin is unkillable (the exact oppisite of what other people saw)). Most players strive to have a full surivial run anyways.

So yeah, who makes it back or not is determined by two factors, what you did to them in your game and what role they have story wise (to determine how they come back). In which case your list does adress that point better.

[Ecael]

shinobi602 wrote...

But Bioware specifically stated why Ashley/Kaidan and Liara had the roles they did in ME2.....

Half-truths are fun. If BioWare truly listened to their fans, they'd put Ashley/Kaidan and Liara as squadmates in ME2 and find some cliche plot device that involves rescuing them or leaving them behind during/after the suicide mission to ensure their guaranteed survival for ME3.

(Sorry Mario Shepard, but the princess is in another castle Collector base!)

"They're not in this game because they're going to be in the next one" is almost like saying "I'm doing this for your own good". It doesn't explain what's going on right now, they just want you wait.

[shinobi602]

Ecael wrote...

shinobi602 wrote...

But Bioware specifically stated why Ashley/Kaidan and Liara had the roles they did in ME2.....

Half-truths are fun. If BioWare truly listened to their fans, they'd put Ashley/Kaidan and Liara as squadmates in ME2 and find some cliche plot device that involves rescuing them or leaving them behind during/after the suicide mission to ensure their guaranteed survival for ME3.

(Sorry Mario Shepard, but the princess is in another castle Collector base!)

"They're not in this game because they're going to be in the next one" is almost like saying "I'm doing this for your own good". It doesn't explain what's going on right now, they just want you wait.

I just remember Casey Hudson specifically saying they're not in ME2 because their roles are important in ME3 and so you could continue the romance you had with them in ME1. I watched him a couple times in interviews say that.

[Madecologist]

TyDurden13 wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Madecologist wrote...

Also to dispell Miranda is harder to kill. I have a friend where Miranda was the only person to die. He did not do it on purpose. He was trying to get everyone to live and only she died. He was shocked. Yeah.. she is hard to kill.....

I agree with this.  On my second and third playthroughs Miranda was the only non-specialist/fireteam leader to die.  She was disloyal when I had her hold the line and she was the only casualty for that segment.  This arguement that she is harder to kill belies my personal experience.  She is easy to kill, just have her hold the line after the specialist and fireteam leader die as well as taking her to the final boss fight while disloyal.  Yes there are less chances for her to die but the two chances I've seen are easy to achieve.

This does not dispell anything - and no offense but your personal experience is 100% anecdotal.  We know she is possible to kill.   And, as the game has millions of players and tens of millions of playthroughs, there will be cases where she happens to die even if no-one else does.  The fact remains that she is the hardest to kill, the least likely to die, has the highest survival rate, however you want to say it.  We know this because we have been analyzing the endgame scenario through dozens of permutations, not based on a couple of random playthroughs.

...snip....

Guess what, so is your experience 100% anecdotal. Which shows people are missing the point I am making. Which is all play experiences are a pointless measure of who is more important. Mine, yours, the OP. All of them. Because they are all different and anecdotal. Being in what you precieve as the statistical average doesn't suddenly make it more right. The fact this arguement is being made boggles my mind.

Do people really think Bioware will shape their story based on statistical variations and statistical means of who had more trouble with? That Bioware shaped the suicide mission in relation to their "big plan"? People this is boarderline absurdity. Don't deny it, trying to use suicidial mission outcomes and trends as evidence is just that.

Edit - Also there is not proof that she is the hardest to kill. Therefore it is not a fact that she is. Statisitical mean is not proof of a fact. Heck a statisitician will be the first to admit that. Even -IF- she is the hardest to kill... IT MEANS NOTHING!

Modifié par Madecologist, 25 février 2010 - 09:05 .

[TyDurden13]

Madecologist wrote...

Ecael wrote...

I posted several factors on the first page that could decide whether or not a character is going to be a squadmate or a cameo.

 Since I think the fragility and survivablity of characters is different for each person and someone's personal play experience can not be used as a measure (because if I use mine and my friend's I would have to say Miranda is the most fragile and Mordin is unkillable (the exact oppisite of what other people saw)). Most players strive to have a full surivial run anyways..

Well, that's the rub - it's not.  There is nothing random about the outcome of the suicide mission, and some characters are clearly are more fragile than others or have mroe opportunity to die than others.  Saying Mordin is more likely to die than Miranda is just flat out wrong.

[Ecael]

Madecologist wrote...

Ecael wrote...

I posted several factors on the first page that could decide whether or not a character is going to be a squadmate or a cameo.

I saw you post, yeah your factors are sound logic. I am okay with that. I am more railing againt the OP logic that the characters fragility/survivability of the suicide mission is an indication of that role. Since I think the fragility and survivablity of characters is different for each person and someone's personal play experience can not be used as a measure (because if I use mine and my friend's I would have to say Miranda is the most fragile and Mordin is unkillable (the exact oppisite of what other people saw)). Most players strive to have a full surivial run anyways.

So yeah, who makes it back or not is determined by two factors, what you did to them in your game and what role they have story wise (to determine how they come back). In which case your list does adress that point better.

As Mordin would say: Supposition. Impossible to be certain!

Having Miranda die is merely anecdotal. As I posted on a thread about killing Miranda:

-Miranda cannot go through the vents (even though she is tech)
-Miranda can survive being non-loyal as the Second Fire Team Leader (she takes the bullet anyway)
-Miranda cannot be carried away by seeker swarms unless the game glitches and the other squadmate vanishes
-Even if you glitch and Miranda is carried away by seeker swarms, she reappears next to you later.
-Miranda cannot be the crew escort

So, even though you might get Miranda to accidentally or intentionally die, BioWare does NOT want her to die in most playthroughs. Statistics don't matter when it's quite clear they don't want her dying constantly (unlike, say, Mordin).

Modifié par Ecael, 25 février 2010 - 09:11 .

[Ecael]

shinobi602 wrote...
I just remember Casey Hudson specifically saying they're not in ME2 because their roles are important in ME3 and so you could continue the romance you had with them in ME1. I watched him a couple times in interviews say that.

And their roles are not important in ME2 because?

Sure, they become essential squadmates and key plot characters in ME3. But how many people will be satisfied by the amount of dialogue and content they put in each character? Do you think it will actually be worth the 5 year wait?

EDIT: Also, do you think people will appreciate it if Kaidan/Ashley get exactly the same lines again?

Modifié par Ecael, 25 février 2010 - 09:10 .