653 réponses à ce sujet

[kanodin]

beermilk wrote...

I dont really see how an autocrat who makes sure things are done The Right Way would be a bad thing. Just look how were living now. Isnt it great? Sure we screw over the 3rd world and I have to vote for policies that only benefit the aristocracy, but look at this cheap 42" HDTV I own! I get to play ME2 in full HDTV!

Even if I am wrong and TIM does not plant himself in charge and simply allows humanity to be in charge the other races will not stand for it. Sooner or later they will rise up and that will be the end of humanity. Not exactly a long term human survival outcome here.

With the collector base, the key element that would only make Cerberus ascension to galactic dominance possible along with a possible reaper war in order to weaken the aliens, humanity will have the technological advantage to get aliens to sign one way trade agreements and other sneaky ways that will benefit humanity only while making sure aliens are stuck and ****ed. It will all look great on paper and if the aliens complain, humanity will just have to remind them whos got the big lasers now. To avoid aliens banding together, cause racial tension and try to create instability within themselves and their neighbours. Theres nothing to fear, long term human survival is assured.

You're seriously advocating fascism? You're saying that putting a dictator in place who works for the good of his chosen people by subjugating and dominating all other species through force is a good thing? I know you complained about democracy but do you really think a dictator will care in the slightest about your opinion? I just can't believe someone honestly thinks dictators are good guys.

[JaegerBane]

glitter_guld wrote...

Asheer_Khan wrote...

glitter_guld wrote...

sjrskl wrote...

yea how could a huge three headed dog ever be considered evil (wait wrong cerberus)

right so a group that suposidly is pro-human still experiments on humans with al manner of uglyness just to "advance the human race" , sure it could be debated they're not evil because they revived you but that's just a plot device it doesn't suddenly turn them into saints

That three-headed dog, you mentioned, is a direct rip-off of a vorlon's three-edged sword. There is always one side, the other side and the truth, which is the way of learning. Cerberus are not saints, but their experiments is only one side of the three-edged sword. Or not?

*Sigh...* What did you teach in school people???

Original mythological Cerberus was tree headed dog guarded entry to Hades the land of the dead so no living people could pass that gate or dead people escapes from Hades and not some freakin volron sword....

Oh, no problem here. Cerberus' three heads can be anything dependent on its origin and the context.

Not when the codex makes it quite clear Cerberus garnered it's name from the extranet manifesto that explicitly states that there was a call for a 'Cerberus to guard against invasion through the Charon relay...' - quite apt given that Charon was the ferryman who transferred the souls of the deceased over the rive styx.

Not to mention that Pluto - the very planet the relay is in orbit of - is the romanised version of Hades himself.

Seriously, while I don't expect everyone to know greek mythology, I've never heard someone try to claim that the several thousand year old idea of Cerberus is actually inspired by several year old sci-fi idea. I know the Vorlons have been around for a while, but still

[Tamcia]

First of all I would argue about the definition of "evil". Its a concept that requires many elements - from one point of view it might be evil, from another not.



I would not say Cerberus is evil. I'd say they are like many figures in history - a group that lusts for power, that finds extraterrestrial life often threatening humanity - its main moto is the means justify the goal. They have no ethical/moral boundaries, they do not care a bout humanity as they say they do. Why? Well look at the evidence - for them a human is an experimental asset. They have sacrificed and killed many humans against their will, in sometimes experimetns that would hvae yielded same results if taken a more ethical way - yeah it would have taken longer, but excuse me about doubting Cerberus for implanting a guy who saved his daughter, with reaper tech in order to see what happens. They do not care about people, just in general they don't want the whole race go extinct. Given power, they would shadow rule - select the government and be puppeteers. People who question them, disappear.

He lied to Shephard then tried to justify himself. He withheld information about critical elements, because he needed evidence first - well, could have told his hypothesis but noooo....



TIM - Cerberus is humanity. I think it shows the real goal of the organization - humanity is a tool, just like reapers wanted humans for one purpose and did not really care about them, so did Cerberus want humanity for other goals and don't really care about humanity.

[AltitudeNYC]

Of course they're evil!
They lured Admiral Kahoku's men to a Thresher Maw with a distress call and killed them.
Then they killed Admiral Kahoku and fed him to the Rachni.
Look at what they did to Jack and those other children.
And they're re-nown for intergalactic racism!!!

lol

Seriously, If you can't make a call of what side actions like that fall under you're probably evil yourself. 

Modifié par AltitudeNYC, 26 février 2010 - 06:20 .

[Trueflow]

You guys even read the CDN this morning? Them freeing an alien torturer. C'mon, nobody is secretly good. Cerberus is exactly what it appears to be.

[BeastMTL]

Cerberus = EA (or at least old EA)

[Hurbster]

Not only are they evil but they are BOTH sorts of bastards as well.

[Sharn01]

AntiChri5 wrote...

beermilk wrote...

A political assasination ordered by Cerberus changes the political discourse to Cerberus favor by given Cerberus the opportunity to place cerberus sympathetic candidates. Of course in retard logic this means that TIM will reveal himself and his organization, show up on Arcturus station with his new platinum crown and tell the alliance that theyre not needed anymore, since humanity gots a new king, King TIM!!!

When did anyone say he wouldnt be a shadow ruler? It is obvious he would.

What the hell does any of this have to do with Cerberus being evil.  None of us know what TIM's ultimate goal is, even if he does not desire any power at all as his end result, it does not change the fact that he is a mass murdering terrorist.

At the very least TIM is like a guy who see's a bank robbery and start's shooting people in front of the bank to get the police to show up. 

[inversevideo]

I would not say that Cerberus, the organization, is not evil; or that they are evil.

There may or may not be evil people, who are a part of Cerberus.
Just like there are evil people who hold positions in every facet of our society.

Cerberus may facilitate operations that lend themselves to best being staffed by people who are 'evil'.
Cerberus may facilitate operations that lend themselves to best being staffed by those who believe in the greater good for all.

In short, I  think Cerberus is much scarier than evil.
They are truly amoral.
The means, any means, by any means, justify the end goal.

So there is no limit, nothing that is sacred, no boundary that cannot be crossed in pursuit of their objective.

Which means that Cerberus is capable of committing acts of wanton generosity, kindness, altruism, and the promotion of peace and harmony, with one hand, and genocide torture, acts of cruelty and barbarism, with the other hand, as long as both hands are committing acts that furthers their agenda.

Their motto could be summed up as 'by whatever means necessary'.

Modifié par inversevideo, 26 février 2010 - 11:52 .

[beermilk]

kanodin wrote...


You're seriously advocating fascism? You're saying that putting a dictator in place who works for the good of his chosen people by subjugating and dominating all other species through force is a good thing? I know you complained about democracy but do you really think a dictator will care in the slightest about your opinion? I just can't believe someone honestly thinks dictators are good guys.

 Im just reciting what the west did, will and are doing right now to keep their dominance. If you were born and raised in the west, lets hope you arnt living in western comfort never questioning where all these cheap goods came from. It would kinda make you ignorantly hypocritical. Just saying. As for my dislike for democracy,  I dislike american brand of "democracy" (more like neofeudalism) or any kind of democracy where the representatives listen to oligarchs more then the citizens, besides election day of course.  Not like it matters, since all the big candiates who have a chance in winning anything were already approved by little TIMs across the nation. 

jklinders wrote...
This hinges heavily of coarse on the idea that no one will ever ever smuggle technology to other species for fun and profit. Any student of history will tell that what comes up eventually comes down. The ghosts of the Romans, Macedonians, Cartheginians, Persians, Mongols ect would be happy to tell you were it possible for you to ask.

Sic semper tyrannis is a Latin phrase
meaning "thus always to tyrants".

 Everything I typed was just a recitation of how the western world with america, the world police leading the advancement and ascension of humanity through the power of christian prayer and bombs treats and have treated its neighbours. neighbours with alot of resources. You should try handing out copies of your amazing latin phrases to those who are being oppressed by the tyrants of the west who want cheap goods and resources regardless of the human cost, they could use some encouragement.

None of those empires or civilizations you name dropped bought/stole/captured/smuggled techology in order to keep a dominant empire from molesting them. Soviets whos actions of stealing weapons technology would have been a better choice to prove your point, whatever it is. Soviets captured "nukular" weapon designs from the americans, and then proceeded to make their own for defense against future american invasion. Remember that americans are currently the only nation in the world to have used nuclear weapons against military targets that by pure accident killed alot of civillians.

[phatpat63]

Mr.BlazenGlazen wrote...

jklinders wrote...

Salarian STG and Asari commandos and the Turian military all answer to their respective governments. Cerberus answers to a single unelected individual with freaky eyes who is accountable to no one. That should be enough to be wary of them.

the wacky experiments and total disregard for individual lives are just the icing on the cake.

We got a winner.

Indeed

[ExtremeOne]

BeastMTL wrote...

Cerberus = EA (or at least old EA)

 


The old EA was the most dominate Video Game Company in the industry now look at EA

[CitizenSNlPS]

I don't know if you guys remember but in ME1 Cerberus had Rachni soldier, Thorian creeper and I think Husks or something in labs.



Rachni would most likely have been used to create an unstoppable force.



And the Thorian was used to mind control.



With these ffacts I think it is pretty clear that Cerberus is not looking out to benefit much of anyone else besides Cerburus/humans.

[jklinders]

[quote]beermilk wrote...

[quote]kanodin wrote...

Snip...
None of those empires or civilizations you name dropped bought/stole/captured/smuggled techology in order to keep a dominant empire from molesting them. Soviets whos actions of stealing weapons technology would have been a better choice to prove your point, whatever it is. Soviets captured "nukular" weapon designs from the americans, and then proceeded to make their own for defense against future american invasion. Remember that americans are currently the only nation in the world to have used nuclear weapons against military targets that by pure accident killed alot of civillians.
[/quote]

Are you serious? The Romans had an utter lack of imagination. Half of their culture was pilfered from the Greek. most of their technology including water systems was pilfered from Carthage. the mongols did not even know what a city was until thay had conquered half of China. history both ancient and modern is littered with the bones of empires that laid claims to greatness and achievement then were cast down and had the credit for their work stolen by those who came after.

You are confusing me. first you say that it is a geat idea for humanity to subjugate all races in the game. you are trying to make a half assed comparison to modern economics? Let's go back to what I said about what goes up comes down. yes there is a lot of movement to bring in cheap goods from outside North America. The side you are ignoring is that the more of NA industry moves out, the less foundation for actually being wealthy the people who live there has. China is the new emerging power because of shortsightedness on the part of North American industry. We will see a different worl din our lifetimes mark my words.

That is as off topic as I am going to get.

Sorry about the quote mixup there Beermilkforum coding is wierd

Modifié par jklinders, 27 février 2010 - 01:44 .

[A Disgruntled C-Sec Officer]

Cerberus in my opinion is evil because they are racist and they preform cruel experiments on aliens.

For an example of how they treat interrogations with aliens read Ascension, or give Vector to Cerberus, and then talk to him.

[ExtremeOne]

A Disgruntled C-Sec Officer wrote...

Cerberus in my opinion is evil because they are racist and they preform cruel experiments on aliens.
For an example of how they treat interrogations with aliens read Ascension, or give Vector to Cerberus, and then talk to him.

 

They are standing up for humanity nothing wrong in that. 

[Blameless77]

ExtremeOne wrote...

A Disgruntled C-Sec Officer wrote...

Cerberus in my opinion is evil because they are racist and they preform cruel experiments on aliens.
For an example of how they treat interrogations with aliens read Ascension, or give Vector to Cerberus, and then talk to him.

 

They are standing up for humanity nothing wrong in that. 

Just because "they're standing up for humanity" doesn't give them carte blanche to engage in all manner of unethical behavior. Most of what Cerberus has done (that we know of) is pretty horrifying. You can, of course, blame that on "rogue" cells, but if an organization can't be bothered to police itself then it probably shouldn't exist in the first place. Additionally, it's pretty hard to believe that a person like TIM (whose business is information) would be in the dark about the horrible experiments/actions his agents are conducting.

[Clover Rider]

While I don't find the crew of the Normandy to be evil, TIM would stab you in the back in a heartbeat. Fact.

[Moogliepie]

Sharn01 wrote...

Quoting this since it seems many of you did not take the time to read it.

jklinders wrote...

EDI tells you that she and the new Normandy were built using tech scavved from Sovereign. Hmmmm what did Anderson say about Sovereign? Oh right, all the juicy bits were scavved before official crews got there. 

Whoa, I totlally missed that. That only bolsters y opinion htat TIM is corrupted by the Reapers.

[Chuck_Vu]

I wasn't about go sorting through eleven pages of this thread. So I'm sorry if I restated things that were already said.



Cerberus is evil. The ends justify the means is valid as long you find volunteers in your cause. Take the experiments for example. The subjects didn't volunteer, they were forced into and or kidnapped for such purposes. If you can't convince people to volunteer for to be subjects, then your cause isn't worthy. And if the experiments don't yield positive results, you don't abandon the subjects (like Cerberus did with Jack), you must take responsibility for them.



Cerberus's actions in regards to the above is what makes them evil.



Also comparing Cerberus to the Council in evil actions to absolve Cerberus of evil, is like comparing Lex Luthor to the Joker and saying Luthor isn't evil because the Joker is crazy evil, and Luthor is corperate evil (in the current incarnation anyway). Luthor is still evil, and so is Cerberus.

[Zhijn]

That smirk after giving him the collector base is all i need to know about what he plans to do with it.

Modifié par Zhijn, 27 février 2010 - 03:04 .

[In Exile]

Here's the problem that I have with the claim that Cerberus works for the sake of humanity: they seem to have a very tenous definition of what actually constitutes a human being. Let me preface this by saying that I think that the race analogy to the different species in Mass Effect is wrong, because the relationship is more complicated than a racial one. The different species are different nations - they have different cultures, system of government, clear chemical and physical differences that cannot go away through interbreeding. This is I think a major factor that gets downplayed in these discussions. With our society, we can all see that there's racism and bigotry. But we can (and to an extent have) overcome nationa boundaries by the fact that we're all human and can, at any point, become one people. The fact tha we can't reproduce with aliens means we'll always be separate people, in a sense that doesn't apply to race (unless you're talking about the asari, but breeding with them is just sucidial). It's much harder to develop a group identity when you can have groups intermingle and you put them at competitive odds for resources for their own families.

The sort version of all of that is that I think that a species-central agenda (e.g. humanity's interest first!) is the right way to approach things. Human lives always have to come first, and when it comes down to it, the main priority of the alliance has to be defending humanity from everything non-human, even the other Council races. We've seen how the Council turns on its own in a heartbeat - they've done this to the quarians and the batarians, to avoid the loaded topic of the krogan. But I don't think Cerberus actually pursues humanity's interests . TIM's motivation is to enhance humans - to build them into something very different from what they are. From cybernetics, to genetic modification (you can look to Miranda as an example, who is heavily implied to have been build by Cerberus or any biotic) to possibly - if you save the Collector base - building some kind of abomination of organic/reaper hybrics, Cerberus is about fundamentally changing what people are in the name of conquering everyone else.

That's insane. Putting aside how bad Cerbersus actually is at doing this (every one of their projects seems to go absolutely horribly wrong) what TIM is trying to do isn't very different from the BS that the reapers are peddling. Haarbinger says making us into reaper goop is ascention; TIM wants to turn humans into half-cybernetic, potentially immortal biotic demi-gods with armies of mindless drones at their command. Just look at how callously Cerberus sacrifices human lives for its projects, whether it's willfully turning people into husks, injecting them with thresher maw venom, etc.

In a sense, TIM recognizes the threat of the reapers. But at the same time, I think that TIM and Cerbersus pose a similar kind of philsophcial threat as the reapears - the desire to turn and melt humanity into something very differnet from what it currently is.

Preserving the base, and working with TIM, isn't really a solution. You may well stop the reapers, but you're putting yourself on the path to do what wanted to do to you to yourself. And that's what it comes down to. It's not about human domination, or bigotry. It's that in the end, what TIM wants for humanity is for it to stop being humanity. And that's not a fate that's much better than reaper goop.

[Kelmen Wong]

I read somewhere that Ceberus has gone through change of leader.

probably the evil leader been replaced by the current no-sot-evil blue-freaky-eye leader

[Rommers]

Well look from a diffrent angle for a sec before you ''blow up / cleanse'' the collector base you see a cutscene of a reaper releasing control over the collector leader.... seriusly you wana keep it ? fly around in brainwash central....
TIM is a weirdo but whos to say hes not being controlled like saren/collector leader.
Wether Cerberus is ''good/bad'' we really wont know untill 3 comes out.

[CPT Eightball]

Not inheriently.or at least the people who join from the start aren't, talk to the crew of the normandy. they will tell you that they aren't in any way against alien races. they just want someone to look out for their own. Cerberus provides it.
(then again, this is how gangs get started, then gang wars, etc...)

It just so happens that Cerberus obtained a bad reputation for doing experiments that others wouldn't. You find out that most of the facilities went rogue.
Though, you also find out the "Illusive Man" has no more than a few operations going on at one time, so he can keep a close eye on things...
He most likely operates like a government "black ops"
If you are caught or captured, the government will claim that they had no knoweldge of your existance and deny ever knowing you. leaving you in serious trouble if you are ever captured or exposed.