653 réponses à ce sujet

[GracefulChicken]

I'd rather work with Cerberus than the Council, I know that much.

[Wolfy2449]

cerberus isnt evil, just racist and power hungry. they only care about humans

[Dean_the_Young]

Wolfy2449 wrote...

cerberus isnt evil, just racist and power hungry. they only care about humans

In the Council's xeno-nationalist galaxy, race identification is a political unit. Not base racism.

[Moiaussi]

Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams wrote...

The ends justify the means. You're right, the Geth have never attacked humanity, and they have given every intention that they just want peace with us (/sarcasm). Also, insinuating that the crime was worse because David was autistic is sort of a messed up way to look at it. In my mind it would be no different if the unwilling victim was not impaired in any way.

So... if the geth were defeated by wiping out the entire galaxy, literally, including humanity and everyone else in it, it would be justified simply because the Geth were defeated?

"The end justifies the means" is a platitude used to excuse not worrying about the consequences of the means. It is only true where the means actually bring about the end, where there isn't a better path even if they do, and where the means are not in and of themselves as bad or worse than the end.

Your sarcasm does not change the fact that it was only a faction of the Geth that weren't peaceful, and they were aided by Saren and Sovereign, and even then, they were defeated without anything like overlord.

[Dean_the_Young]

Moiaussi, how was the point of Overlord to wipe out the entire galaxy?





Knowledge of the Geth/Heretic split does not exist before Shepard's finding and reactivation of Legion. Overlord began and entered its crisis well before then.

[SFF19]

I fail to see how that makes what Doc Archer did with the project any less repulsive. :/

[Arijharn]

You know; in and of itself I don't see what's deplorable about sending marines to Akuze in the first place. People's entire perception of that event is wrapped up in the testimony of Corporal Toombs so the idea that anyone takes his word as absolute gospel is absolutely ridiculous.



Corporal Toombs obviously suffered but how much of the given situation could he possibly know? How much of the 'information' he supplies can be completely factual? If someone injects something into you that causes pain, obviously one would think it's what's been injected... what if it's the reaction of whatever is in his bloodstream to counter-act it? What if... Cerberus was actually trying to make him lucid so they can find out what exactly happened? Isn't that as plausible to the alternative?



Sending a rapid reaction force to a potential hotspot isn't an 'evil' thing to do either, that's what the marines are there for.

[SFF19]

Arijharn wrote...

You know; in and of itself I don't see what's deplorable about sending marines to Akuze in the first place. People's entire perception of that event is wrapped up in the testimony of Corporal Toombs so the idea that anyone takes his word as absolute gospel is absolutely ridiculous.

Corporal Toombs obviously suffered but how much of the given situation could he possibly know? How much of the 'information' he supplies can be completely factual? If someone injects something into you that causes pain, obviously one would think it's what's been injected... what if it's the reaction of whatever is in his bloodstream to counter-act it? What if... Cerberus was actually trying to make him lucid so they can find out what exactly happened? Isn't that as plausible to the alternative?

Sending a rapid reaction force to a potential hotspot isn't an 'evil' thing to do either, that's what the marines are there for.

If you're suggesting that Cerberus wasn't responsible for the Akuze disaster, I'm afraid it's already been confirmed that they were behind it.

[philiposophy]

Cerberus is too complex an organization to be painted with strokes as broad as "good" and "evil".

[Dean_the_Young]

SFF19 wrote...

I fail to see how that makes what Doc Archer did with the project any less repulsive. :/

Repulsive? No. Justified? Well, you've already staked a position and placed one above the many, so that wouldn't change for you either.

The sad thing is, taking Archer's brother out of the system doesn't mean that the project will be shut down and no more harm will be done. It really just means that Cerberus will go find more autistics and put them into the system until they find someone who gets anything close to suitable results. A lot more boys and girls, and not even for as much gain should war with the geth come (as it likely will, for all Shepards but the most procrastinating and who learn otherwise from Legion).

[Reaper S1x]

Cerberus isn't evil at all, it's actually a force of great good. The methods may be deplorable, and the costs may be unconscionable, but the goal is well worth it and in this particular case, the end does indeed justify the means. I'm sure I wouldn't say the same if I was one of their experiments, but being able to look from the outside in sometimes offers a certain clarity.

[Xilizhra]

Repulsive? No. Justified? Well, you've already staked a position and placed one above the many, so that wouldn't change for you either.

Following the standard timeline in which Legion come before Overlord, it wouldn't be placing the one above the many because the many aren't in appreciable danger from the geth. You also define it much too starkly: it's the one definite over the many maybe.

[Reaper S1x]

At least they were being proactive and seeking a solution to the problem before a full scale war broke out. Depending on if you went renegade or paragon, Humanity has already lost one colony, and 5 Cruisers to the Geth.



If Cerberus seeks out a solution to the cost of one persons suffering against the cost of all those lives, which is probably in the high hundreds, plus how ever many hundreds if not thousands more could potentially be lost in a war against the Geth, then I say more power to them. It's a justified use of human resources. Ethical? Certainly not. Moral? If you bend them like a pro-yoga person. Humane? Not a chance. Justified? Absolutely, without a doubt.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Anti-hero at best, villain at worst. Some of the operatives have generally been more evil than the organization behind them.



In the end I think it's as they say, they're not as bad as everyone says... but not saints either.

[Giggles_Manically]

No organization in ME1 is all evil or all good.

Even the Eclipse Mercs liberated a planet (read in its desrciption)





That being said I would prefer to work with the STG than either Cerberus, the Alliance, or the council.



That may just be because they have Kirrahe and Mordin. And having just done Virmire again:

“You all know the mission, and what is at stake.

I have come to trust each of you with my life -- but I have also heard murmurs of discontent. I share your concerns.

We are trained for espionage; we would be legends, but the records are sealed. Glory in battle is not our way.

Think of our heroes; the Silent Step, who defeated a nation with a single shot. Or the Ever Alert, who kept armies at bay with hidden facts.

These giants do not seem to give us solace here, but they are not all that we are.

Before the network, there was the fleet. Before diplomacy, there were soldiers!

Our influence stopped the rachni, but before that we held the line!

Our influence stopped the krogan, but before that, we held the line!

Our influence will stop Saren; in the battle today, we will hold the line!”



Simply epic.

[Xilizhra]

Reaper S1x wrote...

At least they were being proactive and seeking a solution to the problem before a full scale war broke out. Depending on if you went renegade or paragon, Humanity has already lost one colony, and 5 Cruisers to the Geth.

If Cerberus seeks out a solution to the cost of one persons suffering against the cost of all those lives, which is probably in the high hundreds, plus how ever many hundreds if not thousands more could potentially be lost in a war against the Geth, then I say more power to them. It's a justified use of human resources. Ethical? Certainly not. Moral? If you bend them like a pro-yoga person. Humane? Not a chance. Justified? Absolutely, without a doubt.

Considering the not-very-considerable threat the geth actually possess, it's not actually justified. Maybe it's justifiable, which is quite a big maybe, but it was objectively an evil waste.

[Giggles_Manically]

My biggest gripe with overlord is well how dumb it was.



Try talking to larger and larger groups too see if it works.

Dont toss somebody into the proverbial deep end their maybe second time out.



That moment made me want to kneecap Archer right there.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Yeah that was Archer's fault and can't be blamed on Cerberus, Cerberus was going to pull the plug on it.

[RiouHotaru]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

SFF19 wrote...

I fail to see how that makes what Doc Archer did with the project any less repulsive. :/

Repulsive? No. Justified? Well, you've already staked a position and placed one above the many, so that wouldn't change for you either.

The sad thing is, taking Archer's brother out of the system doesn't mean that the project will be shut down and no more harm will be done. It really just means that Cerberus will go find more autistics and put them into the system until they find someone who gets anything close to suitable results. A lot more boys and girls, and not even for as much gain should war with the geth come (as it likely will, for all Shepards but the most procrastinating and who learn otherwise from Legion).

Patently untrue, TIM's email states they'll likely NEVER find anyone like David again.  So the project likely can't be restarted, at least not anytime soon, or in time to have any tangible effect.

[Giggles_Manically]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Yeah that was Archer's fault and can't be blamed on Cerberus, Cerberus was going to pull the plug on it.

Why he didnt say: "hey look it works!", instead of well doing what he did.

That was one of the stupider things an person does in ME2. Outside of trying to have snu snu with Morinth. 

[Reaper S1x]

Oh, without a doubt the methodology was exceedingly evil. Getting your brain turned into a super computer would be hard enough for someone who was level headed and completely willing. It's unthinkable to do it to someone who is frightened by almost everything and genetically unstable as well. It's true that progress has to start somewhere, and Cerberus was correct in taking steps to combat the Geth threat. But as justifiable as it was, the methodology was still evil. No argument there.

[lltoon]

Cerberus isn't evil, they are just incompetent. All the horros of their experiments are a result of their incompetence. If they can get anything done correctly, it usually turns out benificial, until they screw it up.



Stealing Normandy's design: Benificial

EDI development from Reaper AI technology: Benificial

Resurrection of Shepard: Benificial - until a security flaw caused the base to be destroyed.

[luakel]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Yeah that was Archer's fault and can't be blamed on Cerberus, Cerberus was going to pull the plug on it.

TIM handpicks his operatives and likes to keep personal control over all Cerberus projects. Maybe he didn't order David to be plugged into the VI, but he should have had more info on the situation than "Shepard, we've lost contact with this project, go investigate it." At the very least, he should have known enough about what was going on there to know that bringing an AI like EDI within range of the base would be a very, very bad idea.

Besides, TIM gets mad if you take David away, complaining about the missed opportunity. For someone who was going to shut the project down beforehand, he sure changed his mind quickly.

[Reaper S1x]

Hmmm... I wonder if David would have been able to take over EDI? She's not just some simple VI, she's almost the same thing as David, just without the restriction of a human body.

[ADLegend21]

Cerberus isn't evil they're just doing experiements to find ways to benefit humanity. Evil would have been if they were ebhind the human colonist abductions and liquification, but theyw ere combatting it. Chaotic good, I guess would be the phrase to describe it?