653 réponses à ce sujet

[Slayer299]

ADLegend21 wrote...

Cerberus isn't evil they're just doing experiements to find ways to benefit humanity. Evil would have been if they were ebhind the human colonist abductions and liquification, but theyw ere combatting it. Chaotic good, I guess would be the phrase to describe it?

Chaotic Good?? Maybe, if you split the two apart. Cerberus does cause chaos, but they are *not* good by my definition. How do you see them as good though? This is the same groups that tortures and experiments on other humans for the *advancement* of humans....<_<

[Lleuen]

Not evil, just oppurtunistic and with the ends-justify-the-means as their motto. Good intentions for their version of humanity, with questionable ways of carrying things out. I can understand their well-meaning stance, but TIM's a megalomaniac, no doubt. Bad **** happens to the consequentialistic people who think history will vindicate them.

[Arijharn]

SFF19 wrote...

If you're suggesting that Cerberus wasn't responsible for the Akuze disaster, I'm afraid it's already been confirmed that they were behind it.

I'm not stating that Cerberus had no involvement, I'm just saying maybe it isn't as clear cut as some people (Corporal Toombs mainly) would like to believe.

Fun fact; Akuze was before Cerberus went 'rogue' and I throw this in to unbalance those people out there who think the Systems Alliance are white knights.

What I would like to see (or rather; have heavily implied) just how many human innovations on the galactic market have their origins in Cerberus research, no matter how distasteful their creation was. I'd like to see some revelations about Shephard's own resurrection that may owe its success in large parts to research performed on husks or something.

[Arijharn]

Slayer299 wrote...
Chaotic Good?? Maybe, if you split the two apart. Cerberus does cause chaos, but they are *not* good by my definition. How do you see them as good though? This is the same groups that tortures and experiments on other humans for the *advancement* of humans....<_<

I'd say Lawful Evil tbh. I say lawful because where possible they try to operate within the bounds of the law (as in; they don't like to draw attention to themselves) but their acts are well, you know... unethical. They may have good intentions of course, but you know what they say about good intentions and roads and pavement.

[Jagri]

Arijharn wrote...

Fun fact: Akuze was before Cerberus went 'rogue' and I throw this in to unbalance those people out there who think the Systems Alliance are white knights.

Oh? Can't we just use the excuse that the thresher maw project went "rogue"? TIM uses that excuse all the time and I am sure the Alliance deserves a few get out of jail free cards too!

Modifié par Jagri, 27 novembre 2010 - 11:58 .

[Arijharn]

Jagri wrote...

Oh? Can't we just use the excuse that the thresher maw project went "rogue"? TIM uses that excuse all the time and I am sure the Alliance deserves a few get out of jail free cards too!

Oh fine, but you only have a limited number of those cards available!

[Bad King]

SFF19 wrote...

Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams wrote...

SFF19 wrote...

You don't think forcing an AUTISTIC man, who clearly doesn't like the idea, into becoming a living lab rat that is constantly flatout tortured by both the VI and the geth hive mind, all for some stupid failsafe for a hypothetical war that likely won't even occur  is evil?

I didn't say that Overlord itself was evil (but it WAS stupid), but the sheer torture and abuse of David by his own brother definitely was.

The ends justify the means-

Yeah, no.

I don't care what the Heretic Geth are capable of.  NOTHING justifies putting an innocent man through 24-hour cold blooded torture like that.  Gavin Archer is one of the most repulsive characters in the series, and possibly in videogame history.

While I agree that experimenting on David was wrong, I would argue that Gavin Archer isn't an evil/repulsive character but rather a misguided one. He obviously did not enjoy putting his brother through physical torment but was convinced that it would save many lives:

"If my work spares a million mothers mourning the loss of a million sons, my conscience will rest easy"-- Gavin Archer.

In reality though, the Geth don't appear to be a human enemy any longer, and should be forgotten about/made an ally of humanity- the reapers are the real threat.

[Phaedon]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Except, of course, Pragia was a rogue cell hiding its own actions.

Your ends is also mistaken: the product was Jack, but the lessons from it can and were applied elsewhere. Even Shepard can get a cutting-edge biotic upgrade from the facility, years after.

Yeah, well the 'It went rogue' card has been played to death. TIM ordered the operation, and it's objective was to experiment on children from the start. It didn't go rogue before he ordered the operation.

And are you implying that torturing children for some biotic upgrades (for which we have no evidence) for is acceptable ? 

I assume you're referring to Akuze? In which case nothing suggests that was their ends... and sending a recon into an unknown danger isn't the same of murder, no matter how you spin it. The intent, purpose, and probabl cause don't add up. Why was the means to kill them, when the means were actually 'send them into danger there could be reasonable expectations they could be able to counter'? Fifty Alliance soldiers plus support equipment is hardly a paltry force.

Murder would only be aa reasonable charge if they knew the capabilities of the thresher maws, and killing Alliance troops was the point of the exercise.

What ? I am confused here. You are saying that Cerberus did lead the SA soldiers into a trap. And you say that it's OK because it tested how powerful thresher maws are ? That makes no sense.

Actually not sure what you're referring to. Not colony of the dead, but that's pretty much the only (baseless) accusation about colony killing throne at Cerberus, given that Cerberus's only known involvement was picking up husks after the process, and that never included biotics.

Cerberus made ships with eezo explode over a colony in order to produce biotics. Needless to say, most colonists died instead of becoming biotics.

Where do you get they tortured him? Murder, yes, but they didn't kill him for trying to find why his men died.

And why wouldn't their ends be 'protecting their organization and all the rest it represents?

Translate it as you wish, it doesn't make it any better. They killed his marines, he tried to find the murderer, and Cerberus imprisoned and murdered him. These are the facts, hiding them behind a layer of pseudo-noble purpose doesn't change anything. 

Oh, please. The ship that was targetted had nothing like that, You might as well call a murder in a new york a an attack on planet of billions. Grayson wasn't even their primary objective, either. The living super-special biotic super project was, and that's far more far reaching than a single person.

That's exactly what I mean. If you throw a grenade in a single NY apartment, you threaten the whole floor, not just the innocents inside the apartment. Yes the innocents inside the apartment, we seem to like to forget about those, aren't we ?

Extremely misleading exagerations and falsehoods certainly don't help in the process either.

Does that include suggesting that using children as lab rats is good ?

[In Exile]

Here is the problem: becuase are confusing practical reasoning with moral reasoning. Yes, there might be good practical reasons to commit horridly evil acts. Maybe Cerbersus has to exist, to protect humanity from the evil of the reapers. But that doesn't mean they aren't evil; that just means we would rather sanction their evil than die out. Being willing to bite the bullet and take responsibility for your actions doesn't preclude you from doing horrible things.

[Dean_the_Young]

RiouHotaru wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

SFF19 wrote...

I fail to see how that makes what Doc Archer did with the project any less repulsive. :/

Repulsive? No. Justified? Well, you've already staked a position and placed one above the many, so that wouldn't change for you either.

The sad thing is, taking Archer's brother out of the system doesn't mean that the project will be shut down and no more harm will be done. It really just means that Cerberus will go find more autistics and put them into the system until they find someone who gets anything close to suitable results. A lot more boys and girls, and not even for as much gain should war with the geth come (as it likely will, for all Shepards but the most procrastinating and who learn otherwise from Legion).

Patently untrue, TIM's email states they'll likely NEVER find anyone like David again.  So the project likely can't be restarted, at least not anytime soon, or in time to have any tangible effect.

Riou, TIM says that they've been set back decades in order to make up the difference. Not that they'll never find anyone and that they're closing the project.

[Dean_the_Young]

Phaedon wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Except, of course, Pragia was a rogue cell hiding its own actions.

Your ends is also mistaken: the product was Jack, but the lessons from it can and were applied elsewhere. Even Shepard can get a cutting-edge biotic upgrade from the facility, years after.

Yeah, well the 'It went rogue' card has been played to death. TIM ordered the operation, and it's objective was to experiment on children from the start. It didn't go rogue before he ordered the operation.

The operation he ordered didn't include torturing children, or to go to the extent they did. There are plenty of experiments, and unethical and fatal experiments at that, that fall far below torture and what happened.

And are you implying that torturing children for some biotic upgrades (for which we have no evidence) for is acceptable ? 

Where do you see that at all?

What ? I am confused here. You are saying that Cerberus did lead the SA soldiers into a trap. And you say that it's OK because it tested how powerful thresher maws are ? That makes no sense.

It didn't send them into a trap. It sent them into danger, which is different. The bigger problem is that the Systems Alliance didn't brief their own soldiers what little they knew, not that they sent them to investigate the Maws in the first place.

A trap is an operation intended to capture/destroy the target. The point of Akuze wasn't to kill an Alliance unit, it was to investigate the Thresher Maws and their danger to Alliance soldiers under sever conditions. Still immoral. Still a different crime.

Cerberus made ships with eezo explode over a colony in order to produce biotics. Needless to say, most colonists died instead of becoming biotics.

No they didn't. Many had health complications, but the mass fatality figure of the books is contradicted in the game itself.

Translate it as you wish, it doesn't make it any better. They killed his marines, he tried to find the murderer, and Cerberus imprisoned and murdered him. These are the facts, hiding them behind a layer of pseudo-noble purpose doesn't change anything.

Actually, it does, because it provides context and avoids hyperbole. Like, say, the 'fact' of yours that they tortured him.

Yes, Admiral Kohaku was a coverup. But coverups aren't random or baseless.

That's exactly what I mean. If you throw a grenade in a single NY apartment, you threaten the whole floor, not just the innocents inside the apartment. Yes the innocents inside the apartment, we seem to like to forget about those, aren't we ?

...no. If you throw a grenade in an apartment, it is not an attack on the entire apartment, or its floor. It's an attack and threat to everyone within the grenade's range.

Cerberus attacked a ship and set up charges to blow it. You can charge them with threatening that many people. You lose all grounding if you start accusing them of effective genocide of the Flotilla.

Does that include suggesting that using children as lab rats is good ?

No, but then that strawman position never occured.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 27 novembre 2010 - 11:34 .

[Sajuro]

Not everyone in Cerberus is evil, I doubted that all the guards on the projects were evil or that all the scientists were evil (mostly morally dubious) but the higher ups, TIM included, are rat bastards. The heads of the cells for doing what they did and TIM for approving it/actively encouraging crossing all sorts of lines. If he didn't know about them because he is still a bastard for constantly pushing people and threatening to cut off the funding to an amoral scientist's project with no way to know what he is doing. At best, TIM is complicit in all of Cerberus' atrocities.

[Reaper S1x]

Why is TIM a "rat bastard" for threatening to cut off funding and pushing his people? If you want results you push your people to do better, to worker harder, and to get the job done. Your pressure is not in any way responsible for their weak ethics. And if your investing millions of dollars into a project you want results, if the project isn't producing results you cut funding. If throwing your money into a business brings back no noticeable profit, why in the world would you continue to invest in it? You wouldn't, you'd pull out and invest where your seeing results.

Having good monetary sense and business ethics should make him a better person, not a worse one.

[General User]

...umm, regarding Cerberus and thresher maws, if it hasn't been mentioned already: on the planet Edolus, Cerberus planted a phoney distress beacon for the express purpose of luring Alliance Marines into a thresher maw nest. The subsequent disappearances / deaths of his Marines was what had Admiral Kohaku so upset in the first place.

[Exile Isan]

Reaper S1x wrote...

Why is TIM a "rat bastard" for threatening to cut off funding and pushing his people?

I think it's the fear that they might lose their lives at TIM's orders if they fail, not the cutting off of funding, that pushes them to be "ethically questionable" in their research. "The Illusive Man doesn't broker failure" after all.

Modifié par Exile Isan, 28 novembre 2010 - 03:15 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Exile Isan wrote...

Reaper S1x wrote...

Why is TIM a "rat bastard" for threatening to cut off funding and pushing his people?

I think it's the fear that they might lose their lives at TIM's orders if they fail, not the cutting off of funding, that pushes them to be "ethically questionable" in their research. "The Illusive Man doesn't broker failure" after all.

...how does that imply 'you failed, therefore you die,' as opposed to 'you fail, therefore you lose money/privaleges/get sent to less demanding tasks'?

Where have we ever got that TIM regularly or even has a reputation of offing his people for projects that turn up a negative?

[Mr. MannlyMan]

In Exile wrote...

Here is the problem: becuase are confusing practical reasoning with moral reasoning. Yes, there might be good practical reasons to commit horridly evil acts. Maybe Cerbersus has to exist, to protect humanity from the evil of the reapers. But that doesn't mean they aren't evil; that just means we would rather sanction their evil than die out. Being willing to bite the bullet and take responsibility for your actions doesn't preclude you from doing horrible things.

This is pretty much it, really.

Both sides are right, and both sides are wrong, unless you force a choice between one type of reasoning and the other. Then the whole debate becomes moot, because the answer would become obvious.

Still, if you consider the definition of evil (v.), nearly every connotation applies to Cerberus, so personal views don't change that.

[Sajuro]

I was talking about pushing morally dubious people for immediate result without any oversight.

[Slayer299]

Reaper S1x wrote...

Oh, without a doubt the methodology was exceedingly evil. Getting your brain turned into a super computer would be hard enough for someone who was level headed and completely willing. It's unthinkable to do it to someone who is frightened by almost everything and genetically unstable as well. It's true that progress has to start somewhere, and Cerberus was correct in taking steps to combat the Geth threat. But as justifiable as it was, the methodology was still evil. No argument there.

I'm sorry, "genetically unstable and afraid of almost everything"??? What are you basing that assumption on? Because its not based in the scientific reality of individuals with autism.

[Exile Isan]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Where have we ever got that TIM regularly or even has a reputation of offing his people for projects that turn up a negative?

The scientists who escaped the Teltin facility were "eliminated". And don't give me that "rogue cell" crap because I don't buy for a minute that TIM didn't know anything about what was going on there. Also Dr. Archer seems a little too afraid of what the Illusive Man will do to him if Overlord was a failure. Too afraid to just be worrying about funding and reassignment, like I quoted before he says "the Illusive Man doesn't broker failure".

Modifié par Exile Isan, 28 novembre 2010 - 04:45 .

[Chuvvy]

Nah, just incompetent. And incontinent, strangely enough.

[Reaper S1x]

@Exile Isan

Davids behavior in the flashbacks is enough to classify him as chronically fearful, which may have nothing to do with him being autistic and simply has to do with him being timid and fearful. And I concede that "genetically unstable" is an incorrect term, but people with autism develop differently mentally then people without it, which can often then lead to them being mentally unstable by otherwise standard comparisons.

[MisterDyslexo]

Most of them are incompetent and misguided, often getting carried away by experiments that probably started off smaller, less grand, and less "renegade", so-to-speak (Overlord, Pragia, possibly Akuze). The evil lies in TIM. He turns a blind eye to whatever they do (he had to know about Pragia), as long as it doesn't endanger his own well-being. Probably lies to himself about the "good of humanity" thing just to make him sleep better at night (if an asari prostitute wasn't already enough). I would rather die than give TIM the collector base. Oh wait, I did.

Modifié par MisterDyslexo, 28 novembre 2010 - 08:13 .

[AresXX7]

Cerberus? Evil? No.... just misunderstood.