653 réponses à ce sujet

[Sajuro]

Slidell505 wrote...

Nah, just incompetent. And incontinent, strangely enough.

http://social.biowar...5/index/2611612

[Phaedon]

 

Dean_the_Young wrote... The operation he ordered didn't include torturing children, or to go to the extent they did. There are plenty of experiments, and unethical and fatal experiments at that, that fall far below torture and what happened.

How do you know that ? And how can experimenting on abducted children be ethical ?

Where do you see that at all?

You are defending Project Pragia’s and Project Ascension’s morality.

It didn't send them into a trap. It sent them into danger, which is different. The bigger problem is that the Systems Alliance didn't brief their own soldiers what little they knew, not that they sent them to investigate the Maws in the first place.
A trap is an operation intended to capture/destroy the target. The point of Akuze wasn't to kill an Alliance unit, it was to investigate the Thresher Maws and their danger to Alliance soldiers under sever conditions. Still immoral. Still a different crime.

I guess that it’s up to interpretation since we don’t know the actual ends behind the two beacons, but I am glad that we agree on this one.

No they didn't. Many had health complications, but the mass fatality figure of the books is contradicted in the game itself.

I’ll try to find a source, for both the books and the game.

Actually, it does, because it provides context and avoids hyperbole. Like, say, the 'fact' of yours that they tortured him.

After Shepard's squad raids the research facilities on Binthu, they find Kahoku's body, covered with needle marks, imprisoned with some of Cerberus' test subjects.

 

…no. If you throw a grenade in an apartment, it is not an attack on the entire apartment, or its floor. It's an attack and threat to everyone within the grenade's range.

There is a reason that the police evacuates almost the whole block during a bomb threat. Objects flying around, hazardous environment (oh s*** where did the floor go !?!) and other factors . But there is no point in arguing over an analogy.

Cerberus attacked a ship and set up charges to blow it. You can charge them with threatening that many people. You lose all grounding if you start accusing them of effective genocide of the Flotilla.

If I said that, then I apologize. However, the Ideena and the Cyniad blowing up could cause damage to the ships that are near them. Not that it helps prove my point. 500+ dead tends to be bad.

[Exile Isan]

Reaper S1x wrote...

@Exile Isan
Davids behavior in the flashbacks is enough to classify him as chronically fearful, which may have nothing to do with him being autistic and simply has to do with him being timid and fearful. And I concede that "genetically unstable" is an incorrect term, but people with autism develop differently mentally then people without it, which can often then lead to them being mentally unstable by otherwise standard comparisons.

I wasn't talking about David being afriad. I never even mentioned David other than I think what his brother did to him was wrong, horribly wrong. I was talking about Dr. Gavin Archer being afraid of what TIM would do to him if Project Overlord was a failure. I'm sure I was clear on this in my post.

Modifié par Exile Isan, 28 novembre 2010 - 05:04 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Phaedon wrote...

 

Dean_the_Young wrote... The operation he ordered didn't include torturing children, or to go to the extent they did. There are plenty of experiments, and unethical and fatal experiments at that, that fall far below torture and what happened.

How do you know that ?

Because the Pragia personnel record their worries that thier actions will be found out, and Archer records that he hadn't yet told or demonstrated to the Illusive Man what he ended up doing.

And how can experimenting on abducted children be ethical ?

In general? That's easy: it depends on the experiments conducted, and the context surrounding the abduction. In the context you're referring to? I was explicitly saying that there were even plenty of immoral experiments that could have been intended far short of what ended up happening.

Where do you see that at all?

You are defending Project Pragia’s and Project Ascension’s morality.

No. I am not. Get you head in the game and listen to what I've said, not what you jump to conclude.

Actually, it does, because it provides context and avoids hyperbole. Like, say, the 'fact' of yours that they tortured him.

After Shepard's squad raids the research facilities on Binthu, they find Kahoku's body, covered with needle marks, imprisoned with some of Cerberus' test subjects.

 

Needles are for injections, not torture unless that's the point of the injections. Which you would have to show. The same in-game text mentioning that he's in the cell also mentions he wasn't killed by what's in the cell.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 28 novembre 2010 - 06:26 .

[Reaper S1x]

Exile Isan wrote...

I wasn't talking about David being afriad. I never even mentioned David other than I think what his brother did to him was wrong, horribly wrong. I was talking about Dr. Gavin Archer being afraid of what TIM would do to him if Project Overlord was a failure. I'm sure I was clear on this in my post.

Whoops, my B! Lol. That was for Slayer 299, not you. Haha, had a bit of a mental disconect there I guess.

[Exile Isan]

Reaper S1x wrote...
Whoops, my B! Lol. That was for Slayer 299, not you. Haha, had a bit of a mental disconect there I guess.

Oh, good. Cause I was like what the heck? But no worries honest mistake.

Modifié par Exile Isan, 28 novembre 2010 - 07:39 .

[Arijharn]

Slidell505 wrote...

Nah, just incompetent. And incontinent, strangely enough.

I don't think you can be incompetent and successfully resurrect someone from the dead...

[Giggles_Manically]

Arijharn wrote...

Slidell505 wrote...

Nah, just incompetent. And incontinent, strangely enough.

I don't think you can be incompetent and successfully resurrect someone from the dead...

And then see all but three people on a station with possibly a hundred get killed by a traitor who had been working for the S. Broker. 
Then having to scuttle the whole facility.

Total win right there.

[lovgreno]

Pure luck that Operation Lazarus didn't end in the usual Cerberus self defeat. But on the other hand they did resurect Shepard so he/she could fix all the endless fails they create so I suppose that should count as a sucess.

[Giggles_Manically]

lovgreno wrote...

Pure luck that Operation Lazarus didn't end in the usual Cerberus self defeat. But on the other hand they did resurect Shepard so he/she could fix all the endless fails they create so I suppose that should count as a sucess.

Yeah when a project kills well dozens of people like well:
Akuze
Teltin
Rachni
Overlord
Lazarus.

Saying "but we got X from it!" when standing over dozens of corpses really is sad.

[Exile Isan]

lovgreno wrote...

Pure luck that Operation Lazarus didn't end in the usual Cerberus self defeat. But on the other hand they did resurect Shepard so he/she could fix all the endless fails they create so I suppose that should count as a sucess.

I'm convinced that the Lazarus Project was a sucess because of Miranda and only because of Miranda. Throughout the mission to stop the Collectors she is the voice of reason and especially caution. She wasn't willing to take the risks that the leaders of other projects seem to be willing to take (Dr. Archer) and she's not afraid of TIM either.

[Slayer299]

Reaper S1x wrote...
Davids behavior in the flashbacks is enough to classify him as chronically fearful, which may have nothing to do with him being autistic and simply has to do with him being timid and fearful. And I concede that "genetically unstable" is an incorrect term, but people with autism develop differently mentally then people without it, which can often then lead to them being mentally unstable by otherwise standard comparisons.

I can agree with you then about David being fearful as an individual. But I can say that with a pretty good degree of accuracy about autism (for a layman,) that if you're autistic you just can't process information about the world the same as everyone else. This might seem to be a picayune sort of thing to talk about, but (my understanding) the term isn't an accurate (or fair) desription for an autistic. Just to be clear is all.

[MisterDyslexo]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Arijharn wrote...

Slidell505 wrote...

Nah, just incompetent. And incontinent, strangely enough.

I don't think you can be incompetent and successfully resurrect someone from the dead...

And then see all but three people on a station with possibly a hundred get killed by a traitor who had been working for the S. Broker. 
Then having to scuttle the whole facility.

Total win right there.

Actually Cerberus forgot that they scuttled the facility when they apparently cleared is out with an Arc Projector. So they can't even remember what they did with the base.

[Sajuro]

MisterDyslexo wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Arijharn wrote...

Slidell505 wrote...

Nah, just incompetent. And incontinent, strangely enough.

I don't think you can be incompetent and successfully resurrect someone from the dead...

And then see all but three people on a station with possibly a hundred get killed by a traitor who had been working for the S. Broker. 
Then having to scuttle the whole facility.

Total win right there.

Actually Cerberus forgot that they scuttled the facility when they apparently cleared is out with an Arc Projector. So they can't even remember what they did with the base.

That or they have so many overrun facilities they can't keep them straight.

[Zulu_DFA]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Arijharn wrote...

Slidell505 wrote...

Nah, just incompetent. And incontinent, strangely enough.

I don't think you can be incompetent and successfully resurrect someone from the dead...

And then see all but three people on a station with possibly a hundred get killed by a traitor who had been working for the S. Broker. 
Then having to scuttle the whole facility.

Total win right there.

You see, Arijharn? For the glory of Humanity you have to accept that it was Miranda who hacked the mechs!

Project Lazarus was a success, and not only because Shepard was revived, but also because TIM owned the Shadow Broker that day!

[luakel]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Project Lazarus was a success, and not only because Shepard was revived, but also because TIM owned the Shadow Broker that day!

And he killed an awful lot of his own employees in the process, since I doubt all (or even most) were traitors and incompetents who were placed there intentionally. Even if TIM knew about Wilson all along, couldn't he have taken him out with a bit less collateral damage?

If what happened with Lazarus was intentional, that just makes TIM an even better candidate for Bad Boss of the year... still, I guess they're all necessary casualties to win against the Reapers and ensure human dominance, right?

[Zulu_DFA]

I repeat. All reliable personnel was removed from the station beforehand or scheduled to be able to evac during the attack itself.

"If they aren't here by now, they aren't coming" says Miranda, implying that some people fled on another shuttle(s) while Shepard was playing with the mechs.

Also, if she is so caring about her staff "treacherously killed by Wilson" (those are airquotes), she is awfully quick to disagree with Shepard if he proposes to go look for more survivors.

BTW, this only confirms that Cerberus is "evil". It only denies Cerberus is inept. In other words, Cerberus is ruthlessly efficient.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 29 novembre 2010 - 05:45 .

[Jagri]

Project Lazarus:

"The cell labored aboard the Lazarus Research Station for two years and successfully revived Shepard. However, in the final stages of the project Wilson, the cell's medical officer, hacked and reprogrammed the station's mechs to attack its staff. Most of the cell's personnel were killed: only Miranda Lawson, her executive officer, Jacob Taylor, and the prematurely awakened Shepard survived."



Off the Mass Effect Wiki - Of course anyone can edit it or add contradicting information but I believe this source and information is accurate.

[Zulu_DFA]

Jagri wrote...

Project Lazarus:
"The cell labored aboard the Lazarus Research Station for two years and successfully revived Shepard. However, in the final stages of the project Wilson, the cell's medical officer, hacked and reprogrammed the station's mechs to attack its staff. Most of the cell's personnel were killed: only Miranda Lawson, her executive officer, Jacob Taylor, and the prematurely awakened Shepard survived."

Off the Mass Effect Wiki - Of course anyone can edit it or add contradicting information but I believe this source and information is accurate.

They forgot the shuttle pilot.

[Jagri]

I don't remember meeting a shuttle pilot... Sure their wasn't a auto pilot being used at the time?

Modifié par Jagri, 29 novembre 2010 - 06:21 .

[Zulu_DFA]

Shuttle pilots are chained to their seats and have duct tape over their mouths.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 29 novembre 2010 - 06:29 .

[Jagri]

I guess that would go to show how evil Cerberus is but I don't think it ruthlessly effective. I would imagin it would smell in the cockpit after a while...

[Zulu_DFA]

Nobody knows for sure. They weld the entrance.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 29 novembre 2010 - 06:28 .

[luakel]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

I repeat. All reliable personnel was
removed from the station beforehand or scheduled to be able to evac
during the attack itself.

"If they aren't here by now, they
aren't coming" says Miranda, implying that some people fled on another
shuttle(s) while Shepard was playing with the mechs.

Also, if she
is so caring about her staff "treacherously killed by Wilson" (those
are airquotes), she is awfully quick to disagree with Shepard if he
proposes to go look for more survivors.

BTW, this only confirms
that Cerberus is "evil". It only denies Cerberus is inept. In other
words, Cerberus is ruthlessly efficient.

So "all reliable personnel" made it off? All the dead bodies Shepard walks by were unreliable? 'Cause my memory might be a bit hazy, but I remember seeing quite a few dead bodies (not to mention that one scientist who got killed by a YMIR with only a glass window separating him from Shepard). What defines unreliable in this case? Were they all traitors? Were they constant complainers? Were they just not worth the money? And if they were, then why put them on a project TIM has billions of credits riding on?

Sure, Wilson serves a purpose to fool the Shadow Broker, but what about the others? What if one of them's an STG spy, or one's secretly on Aria's payroll, or one's working for the Alliance (unless your theory on them is right)? It would be extremely stupid to put all these people on the base, unless TIM doesn't mind potential enemies getting status updates on the resurrection. And if they're whiners or incompetents, then why put them on the Lazarus project of all places? If they're going to help bring someone back from the dead, they should be pretty good at their jobs. And if the unreliable personnel are bad at what they do, why not, I don't know, fire them, or even kill them beforehand, instead of putting them on an essential project and plan to get them caught in the crossfire.

As for Miranda, her quote is ambiguous. It implies that others made it off just as much as it implies "It's just the three of us, everyone else is dead, forget them." And Miranda doesn't seem like the type who would kill Wilson out of vengeance, whether his betrayal was previously known or not. She'd kill him because he was a traitor to Cerberus and she works for Cerberus. That's it. Based on her Ice Queen-ness at the beginning of the game, it makes sense that she wouldn't shed any tears over her coworkers (I don't even remember Jacob being mad about anyone's death but Wilson's, and he's supposed to be the friendly one). If they're dead, they're dead; if not, Miranda doesn't care, she's got to get the person she rebuilt and her future CO to meet with her boss.

I know the "remote detonation" could be a lie, but that depends on whether those mission summaries are true or not. And that depends on whether they're meant for Shepard's eyes or the player's. Based on some notes in later ones (Garrus is noted as keeping Shepard "comfortable", Tali is going to need "observation", Bailey looks like a good prospect for recruitment), I think they're personal summaries made by TIM with some comments that he'd have no reason to show to Shepard. The only reason the player sees them is due to omniscience; i.e, TIM would be lying in the report for no good reason.

So if the "Rude Awakening" was on purpose, that means that TIM killed off an awful lot of his employees in a very messy fashion just to take care of a few traitors and give Shepard a live-fire test that potentially could have killed him (sure, he should be able to easily take out the mechs, but that was a combat situation and bad things happen quite often in combat situations). I wouldn't say that's evil (since evil's more a concept than a description), but I would say it's very despicable and underhanded of the guy. It is also ruthless, but it is in no way efficient, since you're having the traitors and incompetents killed piecemeal instead of just rounded up and shot in a controlled manner.

And it is definitely inept; I can't think of a better word to describe TIM if he's killed off most of the personnel working on a 4 billion credit project, just because there were a few traitors and the rest were "expendable". Expendable is something like the Reaper IFF; that team was sent in to find the IFF, they did, with 100% casualties. Not the best solution, but they did their job, and they got killed through something TIM had no control over. But if TIM is willing to purposefully kill off people who were involved in resurrecting someone, then his definition of expendable is very all-encompassing.

Modifié par luakel, 29 novembre 2010 - 06:34 .

[MisterDyslexo]

I can think of a better use for those "rotated" operatives-live human experimentation. Its right up Cerberus' alley, and they'd be more useful that way. While your theory is certainly valid, I think he just didn't give a rats ass, or just wanted all evidence of the Lazarus Project stricken from existence.