653 réponses à ce sujet

[Zulu_DFA]

[quote]luakel wrote...

[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...

I repeat. All reliable personnel was
removed from the station beforehand or scheduled to be able to evac
during the attack itself.

"If they aren't here by now, they
aren't coming" says Miranda, implying that some people fled on another
shuttle(s) while Shepard was playing with the mechs.

Also, if she
is so caring about her staff "treacherously killed by Wilson" (those
are airquotes), she is awfully quick to disagree with Shepard if he
proposes to go look for more survivors.

BTW, this only confirms
that Cerberus is "evil". It only denies Cerberus is inept. In other
words, Cerberus is ruthlessly efficient.[/quote]
So "all reliable personnel" made it off? All the dead bodies Shepard walks by were unreliable? 'Cause my memory might be a bit hazy, but I remember seeing quite a few dead bodies (not to mention that one scientist who got killed by a YMIR with only a glass window separating him from Shepard). What defines unreliable in this case? Were they all traitors? Were they constant complainers? Were they just not worth the money? And if they were, then why put them on a project TIM has billions of credits riding on?

Sure, Wilson serves a purpose to fool the Shadow Broker, but what about the others? What if one of them's an STG spy, or one's secretly on Aria's payroll, or one's working for the Alliance (unless your theory on them is right)? It would be extremely stupid to put all these people on the base, unless TIM doesn't mind potential enemies getting status updates on the resurrection.[/quote]

Timing. The personnel rotation was synchronized with the attack. They ALL could arrive just a few hours before the "D+0", and still be resting from the long journey. Of course, a few honest Joes could get mixed in the scuffle and timelessly perish, but they were in the minority among the casualties.


[quote]luakel wrote...
And if they're whiners or incompetents, then why put them on the Lazarus project of all places?
[/quote]
Because it was a dumping ground.


[quote]luakel wrote...
If they're going to help bring someone back from the dead, they should be pretty good at their jobs.
[/quote]
With Shepard 99% complete, those who were tasked with doing the bringing were no longer essential and were removed in advance. Unless they were confirmed Wilson's accomplices, in which case they were left behind for termination along with Wilson.


[quote]luakel wrote...
And if the unreliable personnel are bad at what they do, why not, I don't know, fire them, or even kill them beforehand, instead of putting them on an essential project and plan to get them caught in the crossfire.
[/quote]
Because the termination was planned to be disguised as a hostile attack. It was their chance to die heroes.


[quote]luakel wrote...
As for Miranda, her quote is ambiguous. It implies that others made it off just as much as it implies "It's just the three of us, everyone else is dead, forget them."
[/quote]
And she can know that for sure how?


[quote]luakel wrote...
And Miranda doesn't seem like the type who would kill Wilson out of vengeance, whether his betrayal was previously known or not. She'd kill him because he was a traitor to Cerberus and she works for Cerberus. That's it.
[/quote]
Thats it. Where did I say she killed Wilson out of vengeance?


[quote]luakel wrote...
Based on her Ice Queen-ness at the beginning of the game, it makes sense that she wouldn't shed any tears over her coworkers (I don't even remember Jacob being mad about anyone's death but Wilson's, and he's supposed to be the friendly one).
[/quote]
Right. Yet from the Miranda camp we constantly receive that the main reason why "Miranda did it" version must be wrong is that she actually is incapable of such a ruthless act as indiscriminate termination of a few dozen people, even on direct TIM's order. Well, maybe she wasn't really ready for that, and that was the moment she started to doubt TIM.


[quote]luakel wrote...
If they're dead, they're dead; if not, Miranda doesn't care, she's got to get the person she rebuilt and her future CO to meet with her boss.
[/quote]
And she's got to bring in the traitor. Anything less would have been unprofessional, unless the treason was no news.


[quote]luakel wrote...
I know the "remote detonation" could be a lie, but that depends on whether those mission summaries are true or not. And that depends on whether they're meant for Shepard's eyes or the player's. Based on some notes in later ones (Garrus is noted as keeping Shepard "comfortable", Tali is going to need "observation", Bailey looks like a good prospect for recruitment), I think they're personal summaries made by TIM with some comments that he'd have no reason to show to Shepard. The only reason the player sees them is due to omniscience; i.e, TIM would be lying in the report for no good reason.
[/quote]
Moot point, and really peripheral.


[quote]luakel wrote...
So if the "Rude Awakening" was on purpose, that means that TIM killed off an awful lot of his employees in a very messy fashion just to take care of a few traitors and give Shepard a live-fire test that potentially could have killed him (sure, he should be able to easily take out the mechs, but that was a combat situation and bad things happen quite often in combat situations). I wouldn't say that's evil (since evil's more a concept than a description), but I would say it's very despicable and underhanded of the guy. It is also ruthless, but it is in no way efficient, since you're having the traitors and incompetents killed piecemeal instead of just rounded up and shot in a controlled manner.[/quote]
See: "cover-up". Simplest explanation, as I've said already is that TIM might have wanted to make some people tucked under the radar, including that of the Shadow Broker, by listing them as dead as a result of the attack. Someone in the locked thread said that TIM might have wanted to do that even to Shepard for a while. Remember Banes?

[quote]luakel wrote...
And it is definitely inept; I can't think of a better word to describe TIM if he's killed off most of the personnel working on a 4 billion credit project, just because there were a few traitors and the rest were "expendable".
[/quote]
Most of the personnel survived. Only the baddies died. Maybe a couple of poor Johnnies.


[quote]luakel wrote...
Expendable is something like the Reaper IFF; that team was sent in to find the IFF, they did, with 100% casualties. Not the best solution, but they did their job, and they got killed through something TIM had no control over. But if TIM is willing to purposefully kill off people who were involved in resurrecting someone, then his definition of expendable is very all-encompassing.
[/quote]
Dr. Chandara's team was more of a loss. Precisely for the reason stated by yourself. TIM had no control of the situation there. But he had full control of the Lazarus Project and the real losses of the Rude Awakenning were minimal, although the outsiders (including your Shepard) were led to believe otherwise.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 29 novembre 2010 - 07:18 .

[luakel]

[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...
Timing. The personnel rotation was synchronized with the attack. They ALL could arrive just a few hours before the "D+0", and still be resting from the long journey. Of course, a few honest Joes could get mixed in the scuffle and timelessly perish, but they were in the minority among the casualties.
[/quote]
Hmm, so anyone TIM wanted rid of was sent to Lazarus Station just before the attack? I guess they could've been staggered too; as personnel finished the jobs they were assigned to, they could be cycled out and replaced with "expendables." Still, if they were transferred to the project piecemeal, that gives them time to spy on its inner workings. If they were transferred there right before the attack... it could work. Still would seem like an awfully suspicious situation to anyone who wasn't aware of the plan (like Jacob, or even Wilson), and it's odd that they wouldn't have mentioned it to Shepard. Seriously, massive personnel transfers, then the mechs go rogue? The obvious explanation to that would be that one of the transfers hacked the mechs, and I can't see how Shepard wouldn't get that as an explanation for what happened.

Incidentally, what was Jacob's part in all of this? Almost certainly not in on the plan (unless he's even more of an ice queen than Miranda), so was he expendable? What did he do to get such esteemed status?

[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...
Because it was a dumping ground.
[/quote]
And why put them all there, together, instead of just disposing of them elsewhere? Or, I don't know, giving them  job training? Killing them elsewhere would be just as bad, since you're throwing away people who can still be used for things, but at least it would be less messy.

[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...
With Shepard 99% complete, those who were tasked with doing the bringing were no longer essential and were removed in advance. Unless they were confirmed Wilson's accomplices, in which case they were left behind for termination along with Wilson.
[/quote]
OK, I can buy this. Anyone who is deemed disloyal is left behind to get killed, with the excuse being that they were needed to oversee the final steps. It's just that bringing all the other disposables in at the same time makes the whole situation much weirder, since the excuse for the switcheroo is that the project's almost done. Why bring in people for the final 1% that weren't needed for the other 99%?

[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...
Because the termination was planned to be disguised as a hostile attack. It was their chance to die heroes.
[/quote]
Sure, killed by crazy mechs the day after arriving. It makes sense, if TIM really wants them gone, it's just awfully harsh... Efficiency != kill people for making mistakes

[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...
And she can know that for sure how?
[/quote]
She can't. But she can't know that other people fled beforehand either; her statement could be interpreted as "implying" a lot of things, including whether others made it out or not. But it's ambiguous; she never says if there other survivors or not, and Shepard never finds out.

[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...
Thats it. Where did I say she killed Wilson out of vengeance?
[/quote]
"if she is so caring about her staff 'treacherously killed by Wilson' (those are airquotes), she is awfully quick to disagree with Shepard if he proposes to go look for more survivors." Sorry if I misinterpreted you, but you're saying that if she cared about her staff, she wouldn't be telling Shepard to abandon them. And I think that if she did care about them, and Wilson was the culprit, then naturally she'd be looking for some payback by killing him. But I was saying that she just kills Wilson because he's a traitor, far as we can tell. And I think Miranda's cold enough (at this point in the game) to be uncaring about her staff whether she planned their deaths or not.

Sorry if all that's confusing, I thought the original comment made sense when I was typing it but it didn't come out right.

[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...
Right. Yet from the Miranda camp we constantly receive that the main reason why "Miranda did it" version must be wrong is that she actually is incapable of such a ruthless act as indiscriminate termination of a few dozen people, even on direct TIM's order. Well, maybe she wasn't really ready for that, and that was the moment she started to doubt TIM.
[/quote]
Maybe. Then again, while on Minuteman she acts 100% loyal to Cerberus and tells Shepard she wanted a control chip in his head, and that TIM refused. If she's having doubts about her boss, nothing in her manner shows it.

I actually don't doubt that Miranda would've overseen this, since she seems a complete Cerberus loyalist until Shepard starts using his indoctrination-esque powers of speech to make her personally loyal to him. My problem with the situation is that it seems OOC for TIM, based on his other actions.

[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...
And she's got to bring in the traitor. Anything less would have been unprofessional, unless the treason was no news.
[/quote]
It was unprofessional; whether Wilson's treachery was previously known or not, she blows his brains out without a word right in front of her future CO (who, based on his psych profile, may or may not approve of such behavior). And she'd only kill Wilson if she had an idea of why he would do it; IIRC, she presents no physical evidence to Wilson's treason, so she must have come up with some logic for it. Based on how Miranda acts about it ("I'm never wrong, Jacob"), she's clearly arrogant enough to think that her explanation is automatically right.

[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...
Moot point, and really peripheral.
[/quote]
Not really. In his report, TIM mentions Wilson as the "only mole" he knows of. So at the very least, that means no one else at the base was intentionally there to be killed for treason, unless TIM was lying in the report itself. Also, the only survivors mentioned are Shepard, Jacob, and Miranda. Others could have survived, or they could have been transferred out earlier. Still odd that it wouldn't be mentioned in the report, or that Wilson's status as a known shadow broker agent instead of just a "mole" wasn't mentioned either.

[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...
See: "cover-up". Simplest explanation, as I've said already is that TIM might have wanted to make some people tucked under the radar, including that of the Shadow Broker, by listing them as dead as a result of the attack. Someone in the locked thread said that TIM might have wanted to do that even to Shepard for a while. Remember Banes?
[/quote]
Why not just make them disappear (i.e. out an airlock), or better yet, send back false info while the real agent is in captivity? If TIM's waging an espionage war against the greatest information broker in the galaxy, there are other options than making it clear that the agent is dead and if the Broker wants more info, he'll have to infiltrate another agent, which TIM will have to root out again.

And if TIM was supplying Banes, he changed his mind on Shepard real quickly (or maybe Shepard just stopped being an immediate threat to Cerberus, and more of an immediate advantage). Not the best move, taking out the 1st human Spectre on purpose; everything else Shep finds in the 1st game, he's attacking Cerberus, not the other way around.

[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...
Most of the personnel survived. Only the baddies died. Maybe a couple of poor Johnnies.
[/quote]
But there's no proof of this. All we know is that Shep, Miri, and Jacob made it out. Others may have survived, they may not have. No way to know for sure, but Shepard doesn't meet nor is he notified of any survivors, and the player is given no evidence to suggest that there were any.

[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...
Dr. Chandara's team was more of a loss. Precisely for the reason stated by yourself. TIM had no control of the situation there. But he had full control of the Lazarus Project and the real losses of the Rude Awakenning were minimal, although the outsiders (including your Shepard) were led to believe otherwise.
[/quote]
Shepard does not equal the player; the player is privy to information that Shepard is not given, in the form of the mission summaries. TIM does not say that all valuable personnel survived, he does not say that none survived, he does not say that some made it off and a few Johnnies were unfortunately KIA. He mentions Shepard and the two he meets, blowing up the facility and sending salvage teams afterwards, searching for other moles, and how "regardless of the cost" Lazarus worked because "Shepard is back". Whether this cost was in money, human lives, etc. is not said. But TIM never says, in his report that is written as if it is unlikely to ever reach Shepard's cybernetic eyes, that everything went exactly as planned. And he says nothing to imply it either. You'd think that if Lazarus was really a dumping ground, then killing off all those useless employees would be mentioned as a success too.

[Zulu_DFA]

@ luakel

Seems you can see the reason behind the "Miranda did it" version and think for yourself, so I won't push with it and will comment only on a few points.

My problem with the situation is that it seems OOC for TIM, based on his other actions.

After the mission to Pragia, TIM sends Shepard personally an e-mail trying to reinforce the notion that the Teltin cell went rogue. In it TIM says quite literally, that any surviving doctors from the incident were later executed by Cerberus. I don't buy it for a second, that the faclility was rogue, or that TIM didn't know of everything going on there, including the kid fights... After all it fell well with the program of inflicting horrors on them. But the e-mail shows that TIM considers "forced retirements" as normal procedure, which can be casually mentioned to a third person working for him.

Shepard does not equal the player; the player is privy to information that Shepard is not given, in the form of the mission summaries.

In the old "Wilson" thread, starting with this post there was a little discussion of it. I argued back then and am sure now that, just as Bioware says,"you play as Commander Shepard, you are Commander Shepard". Save for short "prologue" (TIM&Miranda) and "epilogue" ("Releasing control", Reapers wake up) sequences there is no third person omniscient angles. Even the Joker's mission may be interpreted as "Joker telling Shepard what happened". So I think the mission reports are meant to be accessible to Shepard. Some of them provide more evidence of Cerberus' unsavory methods such as supporting orgainzed crime, but its unsavory methods are hardly a secret. But some tend to present Cerberus in a more favorable view: such as providing aid to the Horizon colony after the attack and additional care to the Aeia shipwreckers. In other words, it's just another attempt to sublty manipulate Shepard (and the player).

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 29 novembre 2010 - 08:28 .

[Phaedon]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Because the Pragia personnel record their worries that thier actions will be found out, and Archer records that he hadn't yet told or demonstrated to the Illusive Man what he ended up doing.

In theory ? Possibly. Not that it changes the fact that it's still immoral, thus 'bad'.

In general? That's easy: it depends on the experiments conducted, and the context surrounding the abduction. In the context you're referring to? I was explicitly saying that there were even plenty of immoral experiments that could have been intended far short of what ended up happening.

I didn't suggest otherwise, but as you said, it's immoral.

Needles are for injections, not torture unless that's the point of the injections. Which you would have to show. The same in-game text mentioning that he's in the cell also mentions he wasn't killed by what's in the cell.

...any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him, or a third person, information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in, or incidental to, lawful sanctions.—UN Convention Against Torture

Not that it makes Kahoku's death more or less immoral, but here's a part from a UN resolution.

[Zulu_DFA]

So, is Cerberus really Evil? Or is it just Inept? Let's see...

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 29 novembre 2010 - 09:32 .

[Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

So, is Cerberus really Evil? Or is it just Inept? Let's see...

This poll made me laugh out loud. I believe it will be lost on many.

[Dean_the_Young]

Phaedon wrote...

...any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him, or a third person, information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in, or incidental to, lawful sanctions.—UN Convention Against Torture

Not that it makes Kahoku's death more or less immoral, but here's a part from a UN resolution.

Yeah. And what you bolded makes any punishment or coercion equivalent to torture. You've taken an already extremely loose and ill-fitting definition, cut over half of it out, and are sticking with something that can be applied to everything from gang rape to traffic tickets.

[Arijharn]

See Zulu? Luakel has largely the same problems I have with your theory. It's almost like your a child trying to hammer a star into a circular recess



The problem is this; it's overly complicated and there would be so many more avenues, highly effective avenues for Cerberus to rid itself of undesirable elements.

[Zulu_DFA]

But none of those hypothetic avenues were taken, therefore Cerberus is considered inept even more than it is considered evil.



(Kudos, TIM, you fooled 'em all!)

[Bad King]

lovgreno wrote...

Pure luck that Operation Lazarus didn't end in the usual Cerberus self defeat. But on the other hand they did resurect Shepard so he/she could fix all the endless fails they create so I suppose that should count as a sucess.

I take it you don't like Cerberus

tbh though all of the factions we have seen in the game have failed hard on multiple occassions. Just look at the Council ('Ah yes "reapers"...' -- enough said), the Alliance (Lord Darius, Collector abductions, various sidemissions in ME1 where you have to help Hackett out etc.), and the Quarians (they epicfail pretty much all the way through Mass Effect 2).

So in my eyes, Cerberus simply blend in with the rest!

[thegreateski]

Necessity knows no law.



When you're faced with extinction there's no such thing as good or evil, just different ways of averting a horrible death.

[Sajuro]

Bad King wrote...

lovgreno wrote...

Pure luck that Operation Lazarus didn't end in the usual Cerberus self defeat. But on the other hand they did resurect Shepard so he/she could fix all the endless fails they create so I suppose that should count as a sucess.

I take it you don't like Cerberus

tbh though all of the factions we have seen in the game have failed hard on multiple occassions. Just look at the Council ('Ah yes "reapers"...' -- enough said), the Alliance (Lord Darius, Collector abductions, various sidemissions in ME1 where you have to help Hackett out etc.), and the Quarians (they epicfail pretty much all the way through Mass Effect 2).

So in my eyes, Cerberus simply blend in with the rest!

I agree that the Alliance has failed on numerous occassions, but the collector abductions were out in the terminus systems where the colonists moved specifically to get away from the Alliance, so you can't blame them for not being able to protect the colonists from the collector attacks. Hell the engineer is still pissed at the Alliance even when their Gardian lasers are the only thing that saved a good chunk of the colony's population (since Shepard probably wouldn't be able to get to the ship before it left or they would just mob him).

I still reserve judgement on the Council, hoping that it is just them lying to Shepard because the first time they see him in two years he is riding in on a Cerberus ship and may very well have the cerberus logo all over his armor. Also I think we owe the council since they are the reason we aren't a client race of the Turians.

The Qurians failing with the Aleri was about on par with one of Cerberus' standard fails, they were weapons testing on the geth and then the geth fought back. That said it was a rare occurence for them.The individual Quarians are doing the best they can in a galaxy where they are second class citizens basically. The one fail I hold against the Quarians is them trying to kill all the geth when they first gained sentience and then saying how the geth are so evil because the Quarians lost their worlds.

[Phaedon]

thegreateski wrote...

Necessity knows no law.

When you're faced with extinction there's no such thing as good or evil, just different ways of averting a horrible death.

Well, it's a good thing that we know for a fact that most of Cerberus' immoral operations were conducted before the Reaper threat. So bye, bye necessity card.

[Phaedon]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

But none of those hypothetic avenues were taken, therefore Cerberus is considered inept even more than it is considered evil.

(Kudos, TIM, you fooled 'em all!)

Actually, this proves the exact opposite.
We only know of Cerberus failed operations, so we can't be sure whether they are inept or not.
We know that all of these are immoral, and we can therefore conclude that Cerberus is immoral, aka evil.

[Sajuro]

Phaedon wrote...

thegreateski wrote...

Necessity knows no law.

When you're faced with extinction there's no such thing as good or evil, just different ways of averting a horrible death.

Well, it's a good thing that we know for a fact that most of Cerberus' immoral operations were conducted before the Reaper threat. So bye, bye necessity card.

You forget the term 'necessity' could be stretched to anything Cerberus wanted.
Teltin: The Asari are powerful biotics, we need powerful biotics out of necessity (when that doesn't work, say you never knew about it)
Akuze: We needed to find out how marines faired against a surprise Thresher Maw attack, and how acid adversely affects someone if is injected into them. This is necessary to prepare for any future wars with the Salarians. (If needed, deny cerberus was rogue and then blame alliance, repeat as necessary)
Exploding ships containing element zero: See Teltin.
Lure Marines into a thresher maw nest with fake beacon: The beacon was just lying around the base and the marines knew something Cerb didn't want so it was necessary to get rid of them.
Abduct and kill Kohaku: He was trying to find out what happened to his marines, needed to tie up loose ends... surely nothing bad would come of it.

[lovgreno]

Bad King wrote...

lovgreno wrote...

Pure luck that Operation Lazarus didn't end in the usual Cerberus self defeat. But on the other hand they did resurect Shepard so he/she could fix all the endless fails they create so I suppose that should count as a sucess.

I take it you don't like Cerberus

tbh though all of the factions we have seen in the game have failed hard on multiple occassions. Just look at the Council ('Ah yes "reapers"...' -- enough said), the Alliance (Lord Darius, Collector abductions, various sidemissions in ME1 where you have to help Hackett out etc.), and the Quarians (they epicfail pretty much all the way through Mass Effect 2).

So in my eyes, Cerberus simply blend in with the rest!

It's more like I pity them actualy.
You do have a point there. But considering how small Cerberus is and the impressive amount of fail they still manage to cause I would say they are in a class of their own.

[Blastback]

BlackwindTheCommander wrote...

My buddies who died on Akuze would like to have a few words with you...

This.  Times a million.  Sorry, there is no excuse for sending soldiers to their deaths like Cerberus did.  And they repeated those actions on the Admiral's men.

I am really waiting to put a couple of rounds in TIM's lap.  Before spacing him.

[Arijharn]

lovgreno, that point that Bad King brings up isn't the first time that point has been raised, and I know that we've successfully argued that point in the past to some people on this very thread but who continue to ignore it because it doesn't fit in with their established perceptions.



Look, people, Cerberus isn't an organization that has a PR department that seeks to publicize their activities. I mean, that would be monumentally stupid for a 'secret' organisation right?

[Blastback]

Arijharn wrote...

lovgreno, that point that Bad King brings up isn't the first time that point has been raised, and I know that we've successfully argued that point in the past to some people on this very thread but who continue to ignore it because it doesn't fit in with their established perceptions.

Look, people, Cerberus isn't an organization that has a PR department that seeks to publicize their activities. I mean, that would be monumentally stupid for a 'secret' organisation right?

No, but by the same token, given how many of their mistakes Shepard has run into and or had to clean up, you think someone like Miranda would highlight any good they have accomplished when trying to get you on their side.

[Dean_the_Young]

Blastback wrote...

BlackwindTheCommander wrote...

My buddies who died on Akuze would like to have a few words with you...

This.  Times a million.  Sorry, there is no excuse for sending soldiers to their deaths like the Alliance did.  And they repeated those actions on the Admiral's men.

Fixed it for you.

[Xilizhra]

Oh, I do kind of hope that I can bring down Cerberus and the Alliance at the same time, depending on how deeply tainted the latter is...

[Zulu_DFA]

Can I please have your attention for a moment, ladies&gentlemen?



"2166 - Haribon Military Industries purchased on Terra Nova. Legitimate arms contract to colonial forces; models without serial numbers produced for export to crime syndicates in batarian space, Terminus Systems."



Cerberus (aka Alliance Black Ops) instigated the Skyllian Blitz!

[Dean_the_Young]

Xilizhra wrote...

Oh, I do kind of hope that I can bring down Cerberus and the Alliance at the same time, depending on how deeply tainted the latter is...

And the Council. Don't forget the Council, the only organization in the universe that has unaccountability before the law as a matter of public record and can have agents routinely commit genocide and be honored as a hero for it.

[Jagri]

Council actions during both the Rachni Wars and the Krogan Rebellion was extreme however given the circumstance could be consider the only solution at the time

Rachni wouldn't stop fighting and any attempt to communicate with them proved futile. Given centuries of fighting later and the inability to still communicate with them left the only option but to wipe them out.

Krogan were very much like the Rachni and refused to give up after starting the rebellion. Krogan's love to fight any action the council took against them likely amused and entertained them greatly. They even went to the lengths to drop astoroids and rendered three turian worlds uninhabitable. Thats quite a horriable act to see the Krogan as simply victims. Genophage and massive casualities later was what it took the Krogan to surrender. Even when facing extinction some warlords continued to fight even after other Krogan had surrendered.

I really don't see any other way they Council could have handled ether situation. A enemy that refuses to give up nor desire to talk of a cease fire.

Key to winning a war: Removing one's will to fight...
How can you do this to a Krogan when thats his only desire? How could they know the will of the Rachni?

Modifié par Jagri, 01 décembre 2010 - 03:53 .

[lovgreno]

Arijharn wrote...

lovgreno, that point that Bad King brings up isn't the first time that point has been raised, and I know that we've successfully argued that point in the past to some people on this very thread but who continue to ignore it because it doesn't fit in with their established perceptions.

Look, people, Cerberus isn't an organization that has a PR department that seeks to publicize their activities. I mean, that would be monumentally stupid for a 'secret' organisation right?

I am sure that most of Cerberus activities are unknown to both us and Shepard. Said unknown activities could be something more sucessfull than all those fails we know about. But what is in the game is all we and Shepard have to judge Cerberus from and if you look at the statistic it seems like they are full of fail to me. I admit that it would make more sense that hey are actualy rather skilled and resourcefull but after Overlord I find it hard to do that. That rather spectacular mess up was the last straw.

Also, for a "secret organisation" they do a very bad job keeping away from the public. Everyone seems to know about them and consider them an enemy.