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[Jagri]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Since rounding up Krogan and keeping them largely locked away on a few monitored planets is what the Council does... yes, they could do that. And once they stop anyone from leaving, the Krogan holdouts can be put down elsewhere.

Shepards actions very well can be used in this discussion, because they are a reflection of what the Council tolerates, allows, and even rewards. If genocide didn't count simply because you had no sympathy or pity for the genocided, the entire idea of it being a crime ceases to be objective and merely a matter of position vis-a-vis the genocided.

Shepard can conduct genocide, and continue genocidal policies, and be applauded for it. By this very Council and its contemporaries. Shepard alone can surpass the known Council genocides, even as a Paragon. It is very relevant to judging what sort of organization the Council is.

Wait a moment didn't I see Krogan on the Citadel and in mercenary organizations outside of their own plantary system? If they are actively rounding up Krogan and placing them on monitered planets their not doing a good job if they are letting them traveling the galaxy. Krogan were willing to drop a astroids on enemy planets and this counter-soluation presented may have resulted in countless more cases of genocide. So entire plants being destroy with their respective populations during a now prolonged war over a noble idealism such as caging a entire race to a few monitored planets is worth it.  This rather then ending the war more quickly using a crippling fertility issue that forces the Krogan race to focus on matters outside of war.

Council tolrance towards Shepard is merely a plot shield given how disrespectful Shepard can be to them. He can constantly cut off communications to them given dialog and even make a statement that can consided racist towards the Turian race. It is to the point it is unlogical, childish, and immature given Shepard's age and profession.

Genocide I think is a word people love to throw around on these boards. Alright so the genocide of the Collectors was having one of their military vessels destroyed and their home base captured and or destroyed? Like having sympathy for the guards and executioners at concentration camp cause you had to kill them to save the people within.

Modifié par Jagri, 01 décembre 2010 - 03:37 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Jagri wrote...


Wait a moment didn't I see Krogan on the Citadel and in mercenary organizations outside of their own plantary system? If they are actively rounding up Krogan and placing them on monitered planets their not doing a good job if they are letting them traveling the galaxy. Krogan were willing to drop a astroids on enemy planets and this counter-soluation presented may have resulted in countless more cases of genocide. So entire plants being destroy with their respective populations during a now prolonged war over a noble idealism such as caging a entire race to a few monitored planets is worth it.  This rather then ending the war more quickly using a crippling fertility issue that forces the Krogan race to focus on matters outside of war.

Krogan aren't kept exclusively on their homeworld and own planets, but the Krogan DMZ is only demilitarized in the sense the Korean DMZ is: Tuchanka, the very Krogan homeworld, is orbitted by Citadel garrisons.

Once the war was one, keeping the genophage wasn't necessary. It could have been cured, let to expire, or any other thing and less extreme measures used to keep the Krogan bottled up. The genophage might have been necessary to win the war, but it wasn't necessary to keep another galactic war from occuring.

Council tolrance towards Shepard is merely a plot shield given how disrespectful Shepard can be to them. He can constantly cut off communications to them given dialog and even make a statement that can consided racist towards the Turian race. It is to the point it is unlogical, childish, and immature given Shepard's age and profession.

No, it's actually pretty typical. Spectres are viewed as institutionally corrupt and can include some of the most dangerous sociopaths in the galaxy, and the Council will empower and protect them so long as they are useful.

Shepard, or just about any other spectre, could do any given Cerberus project and get away with it, legally, so long as it provided results the Council could use.

Genocide I think is a word people love to throw around on these boards. Alright so the genocide of the Collectors was having one of their military vessels destroyed and their home base captured and or destroyed? Like having sympathy for the guards and executioners at concentration camp cause you had to kill them to save the people within.

Genocide of the Rachni was killing a single fertile female. Still genocide. Still just an individual.

I agree, though, that genocide is thrown around too much. It's been watered down far too much by the UN, whos standard most people accept.

[Jagri]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Krogan aren't kept exclusively on their homeworld and own planets, but the Krogan DMZ is only demilitarized in the sense the Korean DMZ is: Tuchanka, the very Krogan homeworld, is orbitted by Citadel garrisons.

Once the war was one, keeping the genophage wasn't necessary. It could have been cured, let to expire, or any other thing and less extreme measures used to keep the Krogan bottled up. The genophage might have been necessary to win the war, but it wasn't necessary to keep another galactic war from occuring.

No, it's actually pretty typical. Spectres are viewed as institutionally corrupt and can include some of the most dangerous sociopaths in the galaxy, and the Council will empower and protect them so long as they are useful.

Shepard, or just about any other spectre, could do any given Cerberus project and get away with it, legally, so long as it provided results the Council could use.

Genocide of the Rachni was killing a single fertile female. Still genocide. Still just an individual.

I agree, though, that genocide is thrown around too much. It's been watered down far too much by the UN, whos standard most people accept.

So it is agreed that genophage may have been necessary to end the war. Now we are making some progress but I agree it should have been ended shortly after the war when the situation was well in hand. I do like the policy the Council has for allowing for them to travel freely through the galaxy thou perhaps they have some restrictions.

Now if one was to look at the Spectre organization to call all of its operatives corrupt would likely be untrue. I am sure there is a few Spectre's who see thier power and status as a grave responsability rather then a get out of jail free card to do whatever they desire as long as they show results.

Oh well I am not throwing genocide around anymore... Hell killing Saren as the first Reaper/Turian hybrid could be seen as a act of genocide.

Modifié par Jagri, 01 décembre 2010 - 04:21 .

[Xilizhra]

I agree, though, that genocide is thrown around too much. It's been watered down far too much by the UN, whos standard most people accept.

And why do you believe it's been watered down?

[Dean_the_Young]

Jagri wrote...

So it is agreed that genophage may have been necessary to end the war. Now we are making some progress but I agree it should have been ended shortly after the war when the situation was well in hand. I do like the policy the Council has for allowing for them to travel freely through the galaxy thou perhaps they have some restrictions.

Don't think it was ever disputed: necessary it might have been to win, but the genophage is a genocidal act.

Now if one was to look at the Spectre organization to call all of its operatives corrupt would likely be untrue. I am sure there is a few Spectre's who see thier power and status as a grave responsability rather then a get out of jail free card to do whatever they desire as long as they show results.

How does a few good apples change an institutional flaw?

Even Paragon Shepard engages in nepotism and favoritism with his influence. (I'm looking at you, Koylat and Tali.)

Oh well I am not throwing genocide around anymore... Hell killing Saren as the first Reaper/Turian hybrid could be seen as a act of genocide.

If it were a synthesis, perhaps. But, by what we know of the Reapers (gestalt AI's, each a unique species), killing Sovereign certainly was.

[Dean_the_Young]

Xilizhra wrote...

I agree, though, that genocide is thrown around too much. It's been watered down far too much by the UN, whos standard most people accept.

And why do you believe it's been watered down?

For one thing, you don't even have to kill anyone to have performed genocide: deliberately ****blocking a group of people counts by the UN standard (Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group), or taking children from a dangerous cult (Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group).

For another, the extension to pretty much any category and size of group means that destroying any group is 'technically' genocide.

Genocide should be considered and treated as a Big thing. Not a technicality.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 01 décembre 2010 - 05:28 .

[Xilizhra]

Genocide should be considered and treated as a Big thing. Not a technicality.

Fair enough; by your definition, then, the genophage is clearly not genocide.

[Dean_the_Young]

Xilizhra wrote...

Genocide should be considered and treated as a Big thing. Not a technicality.

Fair enough; by your definition, then, the genophage is clearly not genocide.

No, the genophage is a pretty big thing, and it is singularly responsible for a negative growth rate that will lead to extinction.

[Xilizhra]

And if extinction is avoided by the genophage being cured before it happens?

[Dean_the_Young]

Xilizhra wrote...

And if extinction is avoided by the genophage being cured before it happens?

Then the genophage would still have remained a genocidal act.

Of course, nothing suggests that the Council wants, plans, or intends to reverse the genophage: every time it could have let a cure develop or see it expire, they've reaffirmed the policy.

[Xilizhra]

How can it be a genocidal act if no genocide has actually taken place?

[Schneidend]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

No, the genophage is a pretty big thing, and it is singularly responsible for a negative growth rate that will lead to extinction.

But the genophage hasn't caused a negative growth rate. The krogan have simply been reduced to pre-industrial growth rates. They still have a sustainable population, especially with Wrex in charge with his progressive breeding policies.

[Luigitornado]

Schneidend wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

No, the genophage is a pretty big thing, and it is singularly responsible for a negative growth rate that will lead to extinction.

But the genophage hasn't caused a negative growth rate. The krogan have simply been reduced to pre-industrial growth rates. They still have a sustainable population, especially with Wrex in charge with his progressive breeding policies.

Right, and maybe if the Krogan were not at war all the time, they would see an increase in their numbers.

[Schneidend]

Their numbers are increasing, but at a rate that doesn't encourage them to try and conquer the galaxy.

[Jagri]

Genophage did seem to impart a sense of morality as we know it in Krogan culture. I think they are more caring of their women, children, and have come to value life. Still they hold to their anicent ways but as a society they are progressing and moving foward.



Perhaps in Mass Effect 3 we will see the genophage lifted.

[Dean_the_Young]

Schneidend wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

No, the genophage is a pretty big thing, and it is singularly responsible for a negative growth rate that will lead to extinction.

But the genophage hasn't caused a negative growth rate. The krogan have simply been reduced to pre-industrial growth rates. They still have a sustainable population, especially with Wrex in charge with his progressive breeding policies.

No, the Krogan have been having a negative growht rate.They have been dying out. It's the entire basis for Wrex's anger on Virmire.

'Pre-industrial growth rates' ignores post-industrial death rates, which is significantly higher for the Krogan.

Wrex's reforms may well boost the birth rate (focus on breeding) and decrease the death rate (more alliances, less fighting), but Wrex and his policies never existed when the genophage was made, or reimplemented, or secured. The genophage decision was not made with Wrex in mind.

[Dean_the_Young]

Xilizhra wrote...

How can it be a genocidal act if no genocide has actually taken place?

An active, widespread forced-abortion program with the intended result of killing over 99% of unborn children and putting an entire species on a demographic collapse is genocide, and an appropriate use of the word. It's widespread and affects a massive population.

[Arijharn]

lovgreno wrote...

No one in the galaxy have clean hands. The problem with Cerberus is that they always use brutal (and usualy self defeating) methods. Pointing finger at non Cerberus and saying that they are just as bad as Cerberus doesn't make Cerberus crimes go away.

When we point the finger; we aren't saying "by these other crimes, Cerberus' are expunged" we are saying: "ascribe those same rules to the rest of the galaxy" which, it must be said, the vast majority of posters that appear on these boards don't. Of course, they may not care because it's a game but I think the social commentary is as apt through a game as any other medium.

[Arijharn]

Jagri, the DMZ I think is more to do with the fact that the Krogan don't seem to have:

a) A navy

A unified army (per say). If the Krogan form a unified army then I would wager that due to their social outlooks (aka; might is right) then the chain of command would be relatively tenuous, if the central commanders fall, then collapse is likely.



I don't think the DMZ could enforce a ban on shuttles or ships that could lift Krogan off the surface like one of the many freighters you see in ME1 or 2... but that isn't the same thing as the Krogan making their own frigates or cruisers. A DMZ would be within its legal right to shoot and destroy any perceived attempts of the Krogan to amass naval vessels... I think in the CDN one of the entries was a freighter en route to Tuchanka was seized by DMZ officials because the freighter may have had components capable of creating ship mounted mass accelerator cannons etc.



As to why the DMZ allowed Shephard to approach Tuchanka in his frigate? Well, perhaps they stealthed the entire way?

[Schneidend]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
No, the Krogan have been having a negative growht rate.They have been dying out. It's the entire basis for Wrex's anger on Virmire.

'Pre-industrial growth rates' ignores post-industrial death rates, which is significantly higher for the Krogan.

Wrex's reforms may well boost the birth rate (focus on breeding) and decrease the death rate (more alliances, less fighting), but Wrex and his policies never existed when the genophage was made, or reimplemented, or secured. The genophage decision was not made with Wrex in mind.

You're basing this on Wrex's dialogue? The guy is awesome, but he's an unreliable, bitter narrator when it comes to the genophage. He's not a sociologist, a mathematician, a medical doctor, or anything else qualified to make that claim. He's a warlord with an agenda, and his motivation is that he doesn't think the krogan can handle the genophage.

Meanwhile, the genophage fact-finding and re-implementation project Mordin was apart of has calculated every facet of the situation and its possible ramifications. They made certain to limit krogan birth rates to leave the race with a maintainable population without allowing them to amass a horde. Mordin, unlike Wrex, bases his assertions in this instance on facts he himself helped to discern and verify.

[Arijharn]

how does one account for every facet and all the possible rammifications? How is that remotely possible, unless they have a computer with the processing power of a planet or something. If you dismiss Wrex's word because he's a biased source, then how can you trust the Salarian's for the same reason?

[Moiaussi]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Moiaussi, how was the point of Overlord to wipe out the entire galaxy?

Knowledge of the Geth/Heretic split does not exist before Shepard's finding and reactivation of Legion. Overlord began and entered its crisis well before then.

The 'point' of overlord wasn't to wipe out the galaxy, but the potential results exist regardless of the intentions.

You are avoiding the point I was making though. If the end truely justifies the means, then surely as long as the Geth lost, the means to achieve that wouldn't matter either. In turn it follows that If the means involved wiping everything else out too, then that would still be justified, simply because that achieves the end.

That is what 'the end justifies the means', er, means.

If you are starting to argue that Overlord wouldn't wipe out the galaxy, then you are acknowledging that the means must be considered and that the end does not justify the means in all cases. That is fair game. Go ahead and make the case or try to. Just don't hide behind platitudes as if they are meaningful answers.

[Phaedon]

Sajuro wrote...

You forget the term 'necessity' could be stretched to anything Cerberus wanted.
Teltin: The Asari are powerful biotics, we need powerful biotics out of necessity (when that doesn't work, say you never knew about it)
Akuze: We needed to find out how marines faired against a surprise Thresher Maw attack, and how acid adversely affects someone if is injected into them. This is necessary to prepare for any future wars with the Salarians. (If needed, deny cerberus was rogue and then blame alliance, repeat as necessary)
Exploding ships containing element zero: See Teltin.
Lure Marines into a thresher maw nest with fake beacon: The beacon was just lying around the base and the marines knew something Cerb didn't want so it was necessary to get rid of them.
Abduct and kill Kohaku: He was trying to find out what happened to his marines, needed to tie up loose ends... surely nothing bad would come of it.

Necessity ? What does working for a goal that's not directly connected to a grave danger have to do with necessity ? How does it change their moral profile ? 

[Dean_the_Young]

Schneidend wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
No, the Krogan have been having a negative growht rate.They have been dying out. It's the entire basis for Wrex's anger on Virmire.

'Pre-industrial growth rates' ignores post-industrial death rates, which is significantly higher for the Krogan.

Wrex's reforms may well boost the birth rate (focus on breeding) and decrease the death rate (more alliances, less fighting), but Wrex and his policies never existed when the genophage was made, or reimplemented, or secured. The genophage decision was not made with Wrex in mind.

You're basing this on Wrex's dialogue? The guy is awesome, but he's an unreliable, bitter narrator when it comes to the genophage. He's not a sociologist, a mathematician, a medical doctor, or anything else qualified to make that claim. He's a warlord with an agenda, and his motivation is that he doesn't think the krogan can handle the genophage.

When nothing disputes or counters his exposition to call it wrong?

Wrex isn't unreliable. He might be bitter, but he's both remarkably frank (as a character trait) and he's the game's provided information source as to the Krogan. We can trust Wrex's account on much the same basis we can trust Tali about the Flotilla (even though she's pretty much our only source), Garrus for how C-SEC operates, Kaiden for BAaT, Samara for the Justicars, Thane for the Drell spiritual beliefs, and so on. The party members in Mass Effect have been honest exposition sources: about the only person who ever deceives you (by ommission) is Mordin, who admits it just a conversation later and corrects it.

Meanwhile, the genophage fact-finding and re-implementation project Mordin was apart of has calculated every facet of the situation and its possible ramifications. They made certain to limit krogan birth rates to leave the race with a maintainable population without allowing them to amass a horde. Mordin, unlike Wrex, bases his assertions in this instance on facts he himself helped to discern and verify.

Mordin's birth rate would work if the Krogans reform. If they don't, the same situation we had in ME1 continues.