653 réponses à ce sujet

[Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams]

Ya know why they call it an Xbox 360? Because when you look at . . . never mind.

Nozybidaj wrote...

ME1 Cerberus was evil. ME2 Cerberus was the good guys. I imagine ME3 Cerberus will depend largely on who the lead writer is.

ME1: We really don't know enough about Cerberus to pass judgement.

ME2: Yes, they were the good guys.

ME3: If Drew Karpyshshyn has his way it would seem they would turn out to be bad guys. In Retribution he stated multiple times that Cerberus wanted to eradicate all non humans. This irked me greatly as I didn't find it to be consistent with ME1 or 2 at all. Not to mention the fact that it is a completely unrealistic goal for such a small splinter group.

[Xilizhra]

Would you kindly find which colony Cerberus is responsible for? I'm not finding it.



The only mention I can find in the Mass Effect wiki is Nodacrux, which is the ExoGeni colony, and the Cerberus Super Soldier project lab you blow up.

All right, I possibly got this confused with Colony of the Dead.

'They were there after the attacks happened'?

Toombs' testimony, anyway, for Akuze. For Chasca, it's less clear but they definitely wanted the dragon's teeth, and they had to get husk materials from somewhere.

[Moiaussi]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

The Soviet Union was also infinitely worse in action, deed, and intent than Cerberus has been and aspires to. Infact, the comparison between TIM and Stalin is a horrendous underplaying of Stalin's character and crimes.

The Soviet Union has a lot more to work with. Everything they did, though, was intended to be 'for the good of the state.' I don't see how they are any different than Cerberus in intent. Cerberus is just as quick to kill to obtain/advance their power. I guess the better comparason might be Stalin pre- or immediately post- revolution, while he was still trying to obtain power and hadn't eliminated Trotsky and Lenin yet.

There is no reason, though, to believe that TIM wouldn't sacrifice a planet ala Stalin if if thought it would advance his cause.

About what, in particular? Not challenging, curious: as long as Shepard's alive, I don't recal TIM ever overriding Shepard against Joker. Unless you count Joker's intercom announcements about TIM wanting to speak with you for the next story mission?

Refusing to lay in a course when TIM wants to talk. There is no reason Shep couldn't have talked to TIM en route whereever, or the forced conversation could have been TIM overriding the Normandy via EDI, or via other means. Joker's refusal may be a plot device, but it is still part of the plot.

[Dean_the_Young]

Xilizhra wrote...

Would you kindly find which colony Cerberus is responsible for? I'm not finding it.

The only mention I can find in the Mass Effect wiki is Nodacrux, which is the ExoGeni colony, and the Cerberus Super Soldier project lab you blow up.

All right, I possibly got this confused with Colony of the Dead.

Fair enough.

'They were there after the attacks happened'?

Toombs' testimony, anyway, for Akuze. For Chasca, it's less clear but they definitely wanted the dragon's teeth, and they had to get husk materials from somewhere.

Toombs testimony about Akuze is the ambush, which is not in doubt, but not about the colony.

Chasca lacks anything linking cause and effect to Cerberus, only the ExoGeni employee's account that ExoGeni sold samples to Cerberus. If there was any malevolent conspiracy to start it, as opposed to a possible tragic case of colonists finding and being indoctrinated by Dragon's Teeth, the closer culprit would be the owner of the colony/colonists who provided the samples, ExoGeni.

[lovgreno]

Moiaussi wrote...

They failed to contain them. Negligence can be as or in some cases more dangerous than premeditated actions.

And this pattern has been repeated too many times to not suspect that something is very wrong with Failberus leadership.

[Dean_the_Young]

Moiaussi wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

The Soviet Union was also infinitely worse in action, deed, and intent than Cerberus has been and aspires to. Infact, the comparison between TIM and Stalin is a horrendous underplaying of Stalin's character and crimes.

The Soviet Union has a lot more to work with. Everything they did, though, was intended to be 'for the good of the state.' I don't see how they are any different than Cerberus in intent. Cerberus is just as quick to kill to obtain/advance their power. I guess the better comparason might be Stalin pre- or immediately post- revolution, while he was still trying to obtain power and hadn't eliminated Trotsky and Lenin yet.

If you don't see the differences between supporting and pursing class and ethnic genocides as well as a paranoid state of terror compared to what Cerberus has done (and not done), it's going to be a fool's errand to try and convince you otherwise. I'll just pre-emptively give up here.

Refusing to lay in a course when TIM wants to talk. There is no reason Shep couldn't have talked to TIM en route whereever, or the forced conversation could have been TIM overriding the Normandy via EDI, or via other means. Joker's refusal may be a plot device, but it is still part of the plot.

That's so obviously a game mechanic I can't believe you'd take it seriously.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 07 décembre 2010 - 09:04 .

[Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams]

lovgreno wrote...

Moiaussi wrote...

They failed to contain them. Negligence can be as or in some cases more dangerous than premeditated actions.

And this pattern has been repeated too many times to not suspect that something is very wrong with Failberus leadership.

I'm curious as to how inserting "fail" for any syllable of a proper noun you don't like is clever?

I've said this a million times but our sample size of Cerberus projects is extremely biased. Shepard is only going to see the experiments gone wrong. Here's a mission that would never happen:

UNC: Good Cerberus Experiments

Travel to systems x, y, and z and get a tour of the Cerberus facilities there. Be sure to take note that nothing quasi moral is going on and the experiments are running smoothly. Also, notice the results that are beneficial to humanity.

[Moiaussi]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

The terminal that confirms Cerberus got samples of husks, but never says where the Dragon's Teeth came from?

Since you made me look up the specifics

The terminal is at approx 8:21 in the clip. Quote:

"A colonial pioneer team rarely consists of more than a few dozen specialists. It is clear that none of them survived. The Cerberus group has a lot to answer for here"

So essentially the narration does tell you that it was Cerberus' fault. We do know from how Toombs and the admiral were treated that Cerberus does believe in eliminating witnesses.[

...and that changes that they didn't hit a colony... how? Because that was the accusation.

It isn't an example of a deliberate act (regardless of the accusation), but it is an example of incompetence.

Toombs says that the unit was lured to the nest of the Thresher Maws by Cerberus. Nothing is ever said about Cerberus pushing/inciting the Maws to attack the Akuze colony, whos disappearance was the basis for sending in the Alliance marines.

For that to have been Cerberus' fault, they had to know about the thresher maws being there. Technically you are right about there being no evidence that the colony was set up, but if Cerberus knew not to warn the marines, isn't reasonable to conclude they showed similar lack of concern for the colonists?
 
Also, if Cerberus were so altruistic, why don't they ever at any time in ME1 simply talk to Shepard and say 'hey we are on the same side?'

[Moiaussi]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

If you don't see the differences between supporting and pursing class and ethnic genocides as well as a paranoid state of terror compared to what Cerberus has done (and not done), it's going to be a fool's errand to try and convince you otherwise. I'll just pre-emptively give up here.

Hmm... experiments and assassinations even pre-reapers to 'ensure the safety of humanity', kidnappings and experiments on soldiers, under the clam that aliens are so dangerous these things are neccessary....

They assassinated both the US and Chinese leaders simultaneously, to create unrest on earth to make it easier for themselves!

They haven't had whole countries (or planets) to work with directly yet.

That's so obviously a game mechanic I can't believe you'd take it seriously.

So any evidence that doesn't support you is 'just a game mechanic.' Right... I pointed out other mechanics that could have been used.

Modifié par Moiaussi, 07 décembre 2010 - 09:39 .

[Moiaussi]

Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams wrote...

I'm curious as to how inserting "fail" for any syllable of a proper noun you don't like is clever?

I've said this a million times but our sample size of Cerberus projects is extremely biased. Shepard is only going to see the experiments gone wrong. Here's a mission that would never happen:

UNC: Good Cerberus Experiments

Travel to systems x, y, and z and get a tour of the Cerberus facilities there. Be sure to take note that nothing quasi moral is going on and the experiments are running smoothly. Also, notice the results that are beneficial to humanity.

Using non existant evidence as some sort of proof isn't exactly clever either. Miranda could have informed Shepard of more successful and/or more altruistic operations. Better yet, the Shadow Broker file could have listed some. The former had incentive to get Shep onboard, and the latter had incentive to gather as much data as possible (and was very very good at it).

[Jagri]

I'm curious as to how inserting "fail" for any syllable of a proper noun you don't like is clever?

I've said this a million times but our sample size of Cerberus projects is extremely biased. Shepard is only going to see the experiments gone wrong. Here's a mission that would never happen:

UNC: Good Cerberus Experiments

Travel to systems x, y, and z and get a tour of the Cerberus facilities there. Be sure to take note that nothing quasi moral is going on and the experiments are running smoothly. Also, notice the results that are beneficial to humanity.

It isn't as large as your making it out to be if EDI's information is correct. 150 Active operatives in 3 diffirent cells. I would like to ask you a question posed early. Out of 150 operatives active in Cerberus how many died in the... Lazarus Project/Project Overlord/Reaper Corpse/Project Firewalker? I say realisticly between researchers, scientist, technicians, security, pilots and verious other occupations a majority of those 150 operatives are dead.

Modifié par Jagri, 07 décembre 2010 - 09:43 .

[Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams]

Jagri wrote...

I'm curious as to how inserting "fail" for any syllable of a proper noun you don't like is clever?

I've said this a million times but our sample size of Cerberus projects is extremely biased. Shepard is only going to see the experiments gone wrong. Here's a mission that would never happen:

UNC: Good Cerberus Experiments

Travel to systems x, y, and z and get a tour of the Cerberus facilities there. Be sure to take note that nothing quasi moral is going on and the experiments are running smoothly. Also, notice the results that are beneficial to humanity.

It isn't as large as your making it out to be if EDI's information is correct. 150 Active operatives in 3 diffirent cells. I would like to ask you a question posed early. Out of 150 operatives active in Cerberus how many died in the... Lazarus Project/Project Overlord/Reaper Corpse/Project Firewalker? I say realisticly between researchers, scientist, technicians, security, pilots and verious other occupations a majority of that 150 operatives are dead.

I never claimed they are large. I simply claimed we only see experiments gone wrong. A town has a parade. The next day they hire you to clean the streets. You spend all day cleaning up their sh*t and never even know about the parade. What will you think of that town?

[Moiaussi]

Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams wrote...

I never claimed they are large. I simply claimed we only see experiments gone wrong. A town has a parade. The next day they hire you to clean the streets. You spend all day cleaning up their sh*t and never even know about the parade. What will you think of that town?

And yet, if you ask anyone in town where all the garbage came from, they can tell you 'there was a parade here yesterday! It was great!' When Shepard asks about the messes he cleaned up in ME1, the response isn't 'but look at the gains we made!'

Miranda says 'those were the other branches, not us, and TIM says those were rogue operations, not our fault at all.

[Jagri]

Miranda never does present a counter to Cerberus failures other then them going rogue. She should have at least said something like "While we tortured children we set biotic research ahead 150 years!" We already know they are evil why they need to hide it to show us morality? Where is this ruthlessly effective organization everyone is claiming them to be?

Modifié par Jagri, 07 décembre 2010 - 10:49 .

[Giggles_Manically]

The "it went rouge" excuse wore out after the well... the first time.

[lovgreno]

Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams wrote...

lovgreno wrote...

Moiaussi wrote...

They failed to contain them. Negligence can be as or in some cases more dangerous than premeditated actions.

And this pattern has been repeated too many times to not suspect that something is very wrong with Failberus leadership.

I'm curious as to how inserting "fail" for any syllable of a proper noun you don't like is clever?

I've said this a million times but our sample size of Cerberus projects is extremely biased. Shepard is only going to see the experiments gone wrong. Here's a mission that would never happen:

UNC: Good Cerberus Experiments

Travel to systems x, y, and z and get a tour of the Cerberus facilities there. Be sure to take note that nothing quasi moral is going on and the experiments are running smoothly. Also, notice the results that are beneficial to humanity.

I don't try to sound clever or like I am telling some absolute truths at all. It's just a figure of speech so it doesn't have to mean anything at all unless you take it too seriously.

And of course Cerberus isn't all hopeless, or Shepard wouldn't have wasted time on them at all. At least one thing can be counted as a sucess: the resurection of Shepard. Even though they almost messed up that one too, nice security work Jacob.

Perhaps there are loads of examples of Cerberus wins we never know about, perhaps not. But almost everything we have is a long line of fails so why should we automaticaly assume that the unknown Cerberus operations isn't like them at all? It would be just as logical to assume that there are more fails out there that TIMmy has actualy managed to not failing in covering up. He admitted his failiure in covering up the Teltin fiasco you know. The trend of wacky experiments ending up eating everyone might also be a hint of what happens on the Cerberus projects we don't know about.

And even if everything but the fails we know about are sucesses it can't be very many considering how small Cerberus is and how many fails they have created and keeps creating.

Cerberus is a necesary evil in ME2 and a unecesary evil in ME1 written to make Shepard look more heroic, that's realy all they are. As for ME3, well we will just have to wait and see. I don't know as I am not one of the writers.

[Dean_the_Young]

Moiaussi wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

If you don't see the differences between supporting and pursing class and ethnic genocides as well as a paranoid state of terror compared to what Cerberus has done (and not done), it's going to be a fool's errand to try and convince you otherwise. I'll just pre-emptively give up here.

Hmm... experiments and assassinations even pre-reapers to 'ensure the safety of humanity', kidnappings and experiments on soldiers, under the clam that aliens are so dangerous these things are neccessary....

They assassinated both the US and Chinese leaders simultaneously, to create unrest on earth to make it easier for themselves!

They haven't had whole countries (or planets) to work with directly yet.

Since it apparently wasn't clear or didn't show up or something on your monitor the first time.

---

If you don't see the differences between supporting and pursing class
and ethnic genocides as well as a paranoid state of terror compared to
what Cerberus has done (and not done), it's going to be a fool's errand
to try and convince you otherwise. I'll just pre-emptively give up here.

[Dean_the_Young]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

The "it went rouge" excuse wore out after the well... the first time.

Good thing there was really only one really rogue cell that was ever given the label then? Pragia.

Overlord wasn't 'claimed' rogue: we can see for ourself that Archer, inbetween the time the Illusive Man was going to shut him down and the time he realized he had a horrific breakthrough, did it all on his own initiative.

Miranda doesn't claim the cells from ME1 were rogue, unless I severely misremember that conversation: no one does. All she really says is that's not the only way Cerberus does things, and that those cells were from the more military-focused branch.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 08 décembre 2010 - 12:41 .

[Moiaussi]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Since it apparently wasn't clear or didn't show up or something on your monitor the first time.

---

If you don't see the differences between supporting and pursing class
and ethnic genocides as well as a paranoid state of terror compared to
what Cerberus has done (and not done), it's going to be a fool's errand
to try and convince you otherwise. I'll just pre-emptively give up here.

Putting a more extreme candidate in charge of Terra Firma and eliminating the leaders of two major world powers isn't creating a 'paranoid state of terror?'

Dean, I can read what is on the monitor just fine. Can you?

[Moiaussi]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Good thing there was really only one really rogue cell that was ever given the label then? Pragia.

Overlord wasn't 'claimed' rogue: we can see for ourself that Archer, inbetween the time the Illusive Man was going to shut him down and the time he realized he had a horrific breakthrough, did it all on his own initiative.

Miranda doesn't claim the cells from ME1 were rogue, unless I severely misremember that conversation: no one does. All she really says is that's not the only way Cerberus does things, and that those cells were from the more military-focused branch.

Miranda's excuse only says that it isn't her fault.. and suggests that TIM really isn't in charge of Cerberus, merely 1/3 of it. TIM excuses the operations Shep fights as rogue operations.

[Jagri]

Overlord wasn't 'claimed' rogue: we can see for ourself that Archer, inbetween the time the Illusive Man was going to shut him down and the time he realized he had a horrific breakthrough, did it all on his own initiative.

Hold on a moment lets assign responsability in the events that took place for Project Overlord. The blame falls between Archer and or TIM who was putting pressure on him to get results. So that being said if Cerberus didn't or doesn't claim that Archer's action were considered rogue then the responsability falls on TIM.

So TIM was at fault here?

Modifié par Jagri, 08 décembre 2010 - 01:33 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Moiaussi wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Since it apparently wasn't clear or didn't show up or something on your monitor the first time.

---

If you don't see the differences between supporting and pursing class
and ethnic genocides as well as a paranoid state of terror compared to
what Cerberus has done (and not done), it's going to be a fool's errand
to try and convince you otherwise. I'll just pre-emptively give up here.

Putting a more extreme candidate in charge of Terra Firma

Where do you get that Charles was the more extreme candidate?

and eliminating the leaders of two major world powers isn't creating a 'paranoid state of terror?'

When no one even knew that those people were assassinated, let alone by Cerberus, and there is no state of fear (or even widespread public awareness) about Cerberus?

Dean, I can read what is on the monitor just fine. Can you?

Apparently not. I keep seeing 'ethnic cleansing' and 'genocides' on the screen, neither of which apply to any Cerberus history until the Collector Base destruction.

[Dean_the_Young]

Jagri wrote...

Overlord wasn't 'claimed' rogue: we can see for ourself that Archer, inbetween the time the Illusive Man was going to shut him down and the time he realized he had a horrific breakthrough, did it all on his own initiative.

Hold on a moment lets assign responsability in the events that took place for Project Overlord. The blame falls between Archer and or TIM who was putting pressure on him to get results.

Blame falls far, far more on Archer, who willingly made the choices without TIM's knowledge, approval, or even consent..

Every supervisor in every profession pushes for results. That's not a failing.

So that being said if Cerberus didn't or doesn't claim that Archer's action were considered rogue then the responsability falls on TIM.

Unsanctioned action does not mean a rogue cell. Just look to the military: if a soldier leads a unit into performing an illegal action, it doesn't make the squad as a whole rogue. It just means it was an illegal action.

So TIM was at fault here?

As a leader, TIM has an organizational responsibility no matter what happens, good or ill. 'Fault' is a separate word with a separate meaning, however: don't use them synonimously when they aren't.

TIM did not tell Archer to torture his own brother for the sake of science. TIM did not ask Archer to torture his own brother for the sake of science. TIM did not imply Archer should torture his own brother for the sake of science. TIM was not going to kill Archer for not torturing his own brother for the sake of science, only closing the project. TIM did not approve of Archer torturing his own brother for the sake of science. TIM did not even know of Archer torturing his own brother for the sake of science.

The man first, foremost, and primarily at fault for David Archer's actions is David Archer.

[Jagri]

2175 - Michael Moser Lang approached by operatives in militia community -- insider information given for stock buy to provide him with funding.

2176 - Lang kills Enrique Aguilar and Ying Xiong. President of the United States and Chinese People's Federation premier.

Shadow Brokers Dossiers go over them in detail. Perhaps thats a better example of causing a paranoid state of terror if not mistrust between nations.

Modifié par Jagri, 08 décembre 2010 - 01:55 .

[Moiaussi]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Where do you get that Charles was the more extreme candidate?

You figure a more moderate candidate would be more likely to endorse a 'whatever it takes' approach to achieving human supremicy?

When no one even knew that those people were assassinated, let alone by Cerberus, and there is no state of fear (or even widespread public awareness) about Cerberus?

What has that got to do with anything? Cerberus killed both leaders so they could get a Cerberus friendly bill passed easier, despite the unrest and economic fallout. Stalin didn't terrorize his people for the sake of terrorizing his people. He did so because he felt it neccessary to stay in power. Cerberus is doing exactly the same. Rather than make a clear arguable case for the passage of a bill, kill anyone opposed and sneak it through in the resulting chaos.

Apparently not. I keep seeing 'ethnic cleansing' and 'genocides' on the screen, neither of which apply to any Cerberus history until the Collector Base destruction.

What is the evidence that Cerberus wouldn't sacrifice colonies whereever they saw fit? They didn't warn of the attack on Horizon. They didn't warn of the ambush on the not-so-derelect collector ship and cut off the transmissions. They withheld proof of the collectors and of the reapers (the beacon on one on the merc bases as well as the derelect reaper and data therefrom). With more political control, where would that stop?

Again , they don't have the same level of control Stalin did over a sizable population currently, so they have fewer opportunities. The implications are there, though and strong.

They are not stupid enough to carry out any major operations without the people behind them.

By the way, TIM didn't know of the Reapers until after ME1 (we know this from the prologue of "Ascension," so the Reapers cannot be used to justify any of Cerberus' actions in ME1 or prior.