653 réponses à ce sujet

[Jagri]

The point I was trying to make is TIM knew all along or didn't know a thing.

A man who supposely has control over his organization and oversees all his projects.

So it pretty much comes to this he is ether incompendent or is to blame for the project falling apart. No more excuses its one or the other... Does TIM have control of his own organization or doesn't he? How is Shepard to trust a man who can't even keep the majority of his own people from killing themselves in their own research projects?

Modifié par Jagri, 08 décembre 2010 - 02:23 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Moiaussi wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Where do you get that Charles was the more extreme candidate?

You figure a more moderate candidate would be more likely to endorse a 'whatever it takes' approach to achieving human supremicy?

Charles is never implied as taking that sort of stance at all. Infact, Charles stance is well to the moderate side of what we know is included in Terra Firma's membership. Nothing marks Charles as an extremist Terra Firma candidate by Alliance standards, let alone Terra Firma standards.

In many respects, a moderate is far easier to keep a leash on than an extremist, and Charles was chosen for his pliability, not his extremism.

What has that got to do with anything? Cerberus killed both leaders so they could get a Cerberus friendly bill passed easier, despite the unrest and economic fallout. Stalin didn't terrorize his people for the sake of terrorizing his people. He did so because he felt it neccessary to stay in power. Cerberus is doing exactly the same. Rather than make a clear arguable case for the passage of a bill, kill anyone opposed and sneak it through in the resulting chaos.

Being known has everything to do with a state of terror. If people don't know you even exist or act, they're never afraid of you. Few people know about Cerberus, and fewer still no what it's done. There is no mass fear, or even general awareness, that some politicians didn't die of natural causes. Stalin purged entire sectors percentages of the Russian and Eurpean populace with a security system aparatus that everyone knew and feared. That's the difference.

But since you don't even acknowledge the differences in that regard, as I predicted, there's no point in trying further.

[Dean_the_Young]

Jagri wrote...

2175 - Michael Moser Lang approached by operatives in militia community -- insider information given for stock buy to provide him with funding.

2176 - Lang kills Enrique Aguilar and Ying Xiong. President of the United States and Chinese People's Federation premier.

Shadow Brokers Dossiers go over them in detail. Perhaps thats a better example of causing a paranoid state of terror if not mistrust between nations.

No, not really. It rather lacks, well, a state of terror. Or even recognition that Cerberus was ever even tangently connected with Lang.

[Dean_the_Young]

Jagri wrote...

The point I was trying to make is TIM knew all along or didn't know a thing.

Here I thought you point was that Cerberus claimed too many of its projects go rogue?

You change points alot. Which one are you on now?

A man who supposely has control over his organization and oversees all his projects.

Question: what is your familiarity with management?

So it pretty much comes to this he is ether incompendent or is to blame for the project falling apart. No more excuses its one or the other...

False dictomy.

Does TIM have control of his own organization or doesn't he?

Question: how many people have you ever been in charge of before?

How is Shepard to trust a man who can't even keep the majority of his own people from killing themselves in their own research projects?

Since that category doesn't apply to TIM, why should the answer matter to the question at hand?

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 08 décembre 2010 - 02:37 .

[Jagri]

Two leaders of powerful nation being shot dead before the assembly and the world wouldn't provoke a paranoid state of terror if not at the least place mistrust between nations? I think when JFK was assassined their was alot of scared people out there.

- The name of Cerberus has been known since 2165 -
Terrorists steal antimatter from the Alliance cruiser SSV Geneva. The sole figure arrested names his sponsor "Cerberus". This is the first such incident of sabotage connected to the Cerberus organization.

Modifié par Jagri, 08 décembre 2010 - 02:41 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Jagri wrote...

Two leaders of powerful nation being shot dead before the assembly and the world wouldn't provoke a paranoid state of terror if not at the least place mistrust between nations?

Nope. It does not put a paranoid state of terror akin to Stalin's Soviet Union.

I think when JFK was assassined their was alot of scared people out there.

For a few days. Then they beefed up the Secret Service, swore in a new president, and got on with their lives.

When Cerberus assassinated the Pope, no one even knew it was an assassination, and the Shadow Broker is the only source we have yet giving any linkage at all between Cerberus and the Kassa Locust killings.

- The name of Cerberus has been known since 2165 -

And that changes them being pretty much negligable on the public radar... how?

Have you even heard of the Zviadists? Revolutionary Organization 17? The Japanese Red Army? The Kurdistan's Worker Party? If you have, how aware are you about them?

Being known at all doesn't mean you're well known, or that your actions are known.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 08 décembre 2010 - 02:51 .

[Jagri]

Here I thought you point was that Cerberus claimed too many of its projects go rogue?
You change points alot. Which one are you on now?

Topics origin is to establish if Cerberus is evil. I am leaning towards evil or incompetent. 

Question: what is your familiarity with management?

Are you fimilar with TIMs claims of control?

Question: how many people have you ever been in charge of before?

I am former Navy and was at one time a magazine supervisor in charge of a weapons magazine on a nuclear aircraft carrier or the CVN-68 Nimitz. Well I guess I could say several since we get moved from magazine to magazine. Personnel within my division would number in 117-135 I believe at one time or another. None of them died during 3 three deployments to the middle east.

Modifié par Jagri, 08 décembre 2010 - 02:55 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Jagri wrote...

Here I thought you point was that Cerberus claimed too many of its projects go rogue?
You change points alot. Which one are you on now?

Topics origin is to establish if Cerberus is evil. I am leaning towards evil or incompetent.

You're changing your point again.

Question: what is your familiarity with management?

Are you fimilar with TIMs claims of control?

Evasion: please answer the question. I suspect a part of this disagreemen comes from the perspective of people with different expectations of what management actually is capable of.

I was am former Navy and was at one time a magazine supervisor in charge of a weapons magazine on a nuclear aircraft carrier or the CVN-68 Nimitz. Well I guess I could say several since we get moved from magazine to magazine. Personnel within my division would number in 117-135 I believe at one time or another. None of them died during 3 three deployments to the middle east.

Clarification: were you in charge of the division, as the supervisor, or a small element in charge of the room? 117, or closer to eight?

Did you ever meet any officer who could keep total track of every action even seven subordinates were doing, even if they weren't trying to hide things?

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 08 décembre 2010 - 02:56 .

[Jagri]

[quote]Dean_the_Young wrote...

[quote]Nope. It does not put a paranoid state of terror akin to Stalin's Soviet Union.[/quote] Did I say it was to the degree of Stalin's Sovet Union? You assume alot of things

[quote]When Cerberus assassinated the Pope, no one even knew it was an assassination, and the Shadow Broker is the only source we have yet giving any linkage at all between Cerberus and the Kassa Locust killings.[/quote]

Never mentioned the Pope.

[quote]And that changes them being pretty much negligable on the public radar... how?[/quote]

Cerberus is a secret organization even when they have been documented how?

[Dean_the_Young]

[quote]Jagri wrote...

[quote]Dean_the_Young wrote...

[quote]Nope. It does not put a paranoid state of terror akin to Stalin's Soviet Union.[/quote] Did I say it was to the degree of Stalin's Sovet Union? You assume alot of things[/quote]Since that's the state of terror analogy you were quoting from, the pre-established standard being Stalin in the Soviet Union, yes. You were referring to it.
[quote]
[quote]When Cerberus assassinated the Pope, no one even knew it was an assassination, and the Shadow Broker is the only source we have yet giving any linkage at all between Cerberus and the Kassa Locust killings.[/quote]

Never mentioned the Pope.[/quote]And yet you should, because the Pope is the classic Cerberus assassination model if. Even more so than the Kassa Locust killing, because the Pope was a direct Cerberus murder, not a separated-by-X-degrees. Yet there is no mass-terror by any standard from it, because almost no one even knows the Pope died of anything other than natural causes.

[quote]
Cerberus is a secret organization even when they have been documented how?[/quote]In much the same way most secret societies exist nowadays: blackbox model. You can know something exists without knowing what's inside it, what it does, or how it's composed.

[Jagri]

Since that's the state of terror analogy you were quoting from, the pre-established standard being Stalin in the Soviet Union, yes. You were referring to it.

Again your assuming things or adding other peoples replies to my own. The degree was never directly mentioned.

And yet you should, because the Pope is the classic Cerberus assassination model if. Even more so than the Kassa Locust killing, because the Pope was a direct Cerberus murder, not a separated-by-X-degrees. Yet there is no mass-terror by any standard from it, because almost no one even knows the Pope died of anything other than natural causes.

Now I should be mentioning things like that? Be it reasons I don't but if you want to control the direction of the topic sure why not say I did?

In much the same way most secret societies exist nowadays: blackbox model. You can know something exists without knowing what's inside it, what it does, or how it's composed.

Well it seems they were labeled a terriorist organization. Isn't that usally enough to provoke the fears of the masses into doing things?

[Dean_the_Young]

Jagri wrote...

Since that's the state of terror analogy you were quoting from, the pre-established standard being Stalin in the Soviet Union, yes. You were referring to it.

Again your assuming things or adding other peoples replies to my own. The degree was never directly mentioned.

It was in what you were replying to.

Now I should be mentioning things like that? Be it reasons I don't but if you want to control the direction of the topic sure why not say I did?

Would you rather not acknowledge a highly-pertinant, relevant case study that directly ties to your point of three/four posts ago?

Well it seems they were labeled a terriorist organization. Isn't that usally enough to provoke the fears of the masses into doing things?

Nope. Plenty of groups get labeled terrorist, and the masses otherwise barely pay attention.

Infact, we've yet to see genuine terrorism from Cerberus at all, which would certainly be a step up in their notoriety factor.

[Jagri]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

It was in what you were replying to.

Shadow Brokers Dossiers go over them in detail. Perhaps thats a better example of causing a paranoid state of terror if not mistrust between nations. <- This was my original statement. "Causing a paranoid state of terror if not mistrust between nations." Nothing to compair to Stalins rule of terror but in fact it falls between outright state of terror and simple mistrust between nations.

Would you rather not acknowledge a highly-pertinant, relevant case study that directly ties to your point of three/four posts ago?

Reasons have already been stated if not by myself.

Nope. Plenty of groups get labeled terrorist, and the masses otherwise barely pay attention.

Infact, we've yet to see genuine terrorism from Cerberus at all, which would certainly be a step up in their notoriety factor.

Potential colonies left dead aside... Hack if Cerberus was taken to court about some of their activities what can they say to the spread of insane Rachni across the sector. We weren't attacking anyone! We simply screwed up!

"Ah yes you screwed up again... We have dismissed that claim"

[lovgreno]

Jagri wrote...

Are you familar with TIMs claims of control?

TIMmy claims to be the leader of Cerberus and the one who sets their overall agenda with little to none involvement of any other subcommanders. Cerberus is a small organisation so one man could, and should, take the responsibility to monitor everything but small details (and no, I don't consider experiments eating the scientists a small detail). This is necesary considering the controversial and dangerous things Cerberus does to avoid things developing into chaos. But chaos is what it almost always ends with.

So it is TIMmys lack of the controll he claims to have that are a major cause for all the fails. If he wasn't involved personaly he clearly should have been. At the very least he should have picked better leaders of the projects. Or stepped aside for a more competent leader.

Thank you for your service by the way Jagri.

[Jagri]

List my former naval status then

Assignment - CVN-68 USS Nimitz
Department - Weapons
Division - G-3
Role - Weapons Magazine.
Rank - Petty Officer 3rd class
Rate - AO

IYAOYAS!

Extra duties - ISF Security Force

Within the Division my primary duties was direct magazine supervisor. I watched over 6-18 personnel given shift changes but like I said was shifted often. Magazine consists of several decks filled with verious degrees of weapons, counter-measures, and equipment that are flown on aircraft. I also seen over smalls arms and demo charges consider Cat II. So I worked in Weapon Mags 54s,64s,74s, 84s, 128s, and 138s.

In security my role basicly was watching over 5,000 personnel. Of course ship is reduced by half when the air wing leaves but then security looks over the 2,500 left over and civilian contractors who have access to the ship. While in port and outside to seas if for a brief period.

But no I never held the rank or near that TIM holds. But I can tell you if he was the CO of a US Ship he would be rotting in prison.

And Thanks Lov!

Modifié par Jagri, 08 décembre 2010 - 04:11 .

[lovgreno]

Jagri wrote...
But no I never held the rank or near that TIM holds. But I can tell you if he was the CO of a US Ship he would be rotting in prison.

If TIMmy was the CO of a US Ship it would soon be overrun by husks or rachni. But I'm sure things like that will never happen in the real US Navy, because even though there are many things on board a warship that could mess up things a lot they are extremely well controlled for just that reason. But of course that takes professional leadership.

Modifié par lovgreno, 08 décembre 2010 - 05:21 .

[Sajuro]

Jagri wrote...
But no I never held the rank or near that TIM holds. But I can tell you if he was the CO of a US Ship he would be rotting in prison.

So we can safely assume the buck stops at the Cell for Cerberus instead of the chain of command. One more reason not to trust them.

[Dean_the_Young]

Jagri wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

It was in what you were replying to.

Shadow Brokers Dossiers go over them in detail.

They don't go into details anywhere, really. Just some generals. They give evidence that there was, at some point, connection between Cerberus agents and Lang for the purpose of insider trading... and then not only that Cerberus broke contact soon after, but even stopped surveilance of Lang before the Kassa Locust assassination.

Cerberus didn't even order the Kassa Locust assassination.

Perhaps thats a better example of causing a paranoid state of terror if not mistrust between nations. <- This was my original statement. "Causing a paranoid state of terror if not mistrust between nations." Nothing to compair to Stalins rule of terror but in fact it falls between outright state of terror and simple mistrust between nations.

Since 'state of terror' was immediately used prior in terms of the Soviet comparison, you either were using or completely abusing context.

Potential colonies left dead aside... Hack if Cerberus was taken to court about some of their activities what can they say to the spread of insane Rachni across the sector. We weren't attacking anyone! We simply screwed up!

Evil conspiracy group =/= terrorist, and criminality does not equal terrorism unless you inflate the word to be without weight.

[Dean_the_Young]

Jagri wrote...
Rank - Petty Officer 3rd class

Roughly equivalent to a corporal, then. If similar to the Army, between 4-6 men under you direct command?

Even in the direct, close area of something as tight-packed as a ship, how much of everything were you aware of of your subordinates, and how much was your PO3 aware of everything you were doing? Especially if you went to any effort to deceive him or her? I suspect the Navy isn't much different from the Army to having people try and sneak by with things.

Managers aren't all-knowing, all aware in the best of times and the best of structures. The entire structure of the US military is to facilitate oversight and direct span of control, and with tight connections between most levels of command. Yet you can still easily start finding gaps, especially as leaders are physically removed from their command elements by geographic necessity (an Admiral, for example, who might not know an issue with a certain ship he isn't on because the Captain thinks it's irrelevant and will soon be fixed). Even the most noble, ideally organized situations can't and don't maintain that sort of oversight.

But Cerberus isn't structured like that. It never can be. As a cell-structured organization, it's has to leave far more autonomy and discretion to its leaders. Femote oversight is always far more dependent on the ones running it at the place of interest: in Pragia, the leadership across the board actively participated in the coverup, though we hear that TIM and Cerberus were increasingly concerned and on the edge of doing a direct investigation even before Jack's escape.

Compared to that, Overlord wasn't even a 'rogue' cell, or called such: Archer basically said 'we just had a great breakthrough, let us prepare a presentation,' without going into detail about what the idea was. That's not an unreasonable request to receive or suspect from an oversight perspective: the purpose of giving that time, after  all, is to be kept informed.

An analogy you'd be familiar with: if you told you next-higher in the Chain of Command you were going to brief him or her in five hours on a matter, how often did they come back and demand a full report before that five hours? But did that five hours become immune to some other screwup occuring that they might possibly have been able to stop if you told them sooner? Perhaps they had information you didn't, which could have changed your beliefs and report. Just as easily you could know something they didn't and weren't aware of needing, and a point at which they needed that information for a better decision came before the briefing.



The entire point of bringing this up is that there is no false dictomy of 'you know and approve everything' or 'you know nothing, and must be incompetent.' You can be incompetent and know things, you can not know things and still be competent, you can be incredibly competent and miss something important, 

[Xilizhra]

You know... considering TIM's liberal sprinkling of bugs over the Normandy SR-2 and his policy of keeping Cerberus small, I seriously doubt that he'd rely only on the given testimony of the cell supervisors. It's possible for him to be competent and still miss things, but I doubt he'd take a chance on missing anything.

[Dean_the_Young]

Xilizhra wrote...

You know... considering TIM's liberal sprinkling of bugs over the Normandy SR-2 and his policy of keeping Cerberus small, I seriously doubt that he'd rely only on the given testimony of the cell supervisors. It's possible for him to be competent and still miss things, but I doubt he'd take a chance on missing anything.

So, you're suggesting he might have learned from past failures and taken measures to limit the chances of such a systematic breakdown happening again? And especially for the projects of the highest-importance?

That almost sounds... intelligent. Ergo, it can't be. (Kidding, kidding, I know that isn't your position in this case.)


Remember, even in Pragia Cerberus didn't just take the word of the supervisors. TIM was demanding the operation logs themselves, which would have revealed the truth (had the logs themselves not been altered). Even with them, Cerberus was still beginning to investigate.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 08 décembre 2010 - 01:43 .

[Rekkampum]

Toxik King wrote...

The only way they could be more evil is if they all had goatees.

You sure you don't mean "boxcars"?

[Xilizhra]

Remember, even in Pragia Cerberus didn't just take the word of the supervisors. TIM was demanding the operation logs themselves, which would have revealed the truth (had the logs themselves not been altered). Even with them, Cerberus was still beginning to investigate.

Still, considering how easily the logs were altered, asking for them from the supervisors doesn't sound much better than just asking the supervisors. We also don't really know what they were concealing in the first place, whether it was their training methods, how many kids were dying, or what. It's impossible to say anything conclusive about what TIM would think about the whole thing.

[Dean_the_Young]

Xilizhra wrote...

Remember, even in Pragia Cerberus didn't just take the word of the supervisors. TIM was demanding the operation logs themselves, which would have revealed the truth (had the logs themselves not been altered). Even with them, Cerberus was still beginning to investigate.

Still, considering how easily the logs were altered,

What makes you think it was easy?

asking for them from the supervisors doesn't sound much better than just asking the supervisors.We also don't really know what they were concealing in the first place, whether it was their training methods, how many kids were dying, or what. It's impossible to say anything conclusive about what TIM would think about the whole thing.

Well, we do know one thing: he shut it down, hard, after it was found out, and no matter what Pragia discovered (and we know it discovered a bit: the Trapdoor anti-biotic immunity, Shepard's discovery of a biotic upgrade a decade after, the proof of concept in biotic power-boosting that was Jack), he didn't think it worth resuming.



It's also worth remembering that Pragia was back when Cerberus was an Alliance shop, not TIM's personal organization. Even more vague than what precisely was TIM's concern was what TIM's role in Cerberus even was at that point.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 08 décembre 2010 - 02:24 .

[lovgreno]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
But Cerberus isn't structured like that. It never can be. As a cell-structured organization, it's has to leave far more autonomy and discretion to its leaders. Femote oversight is always far more dependent on the ones running it at the place of interest: in Pragia, the leadership across the board actively participated in the coverup, though we hear that TIM and Cerberus were increasingly concerned and on the edge of doing a direct investigation even before Jack's escape.

Then TIM should have done a better job choosing his subcommanders. But I do agree that it's hard to show specific evidence to put the blame on TIM, he is elusive like that. This however doesn't change the fact that the leaders of the "rogue" cells do screw up all the time. No matter who in Cerberus is to blame they still cause a lot of unnecesary fails.