653 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

What makes you think it was easy?

It doesn't sound like the supervisors had to resort to completely new methods to do so; the idea of alterable logs is probably familiar to most people in this universe.

Well, we do know one thing: he shut it down, hard, after it was found out, and no matter what Pragia discovered (and we know it discovered a bit: the Trapdoor anti-biotic immunity, Shepard's discovery of a biotic upgrade a decade after, the proof of concept in biotic power-boosting that was Jack), he didn't think it worth resuming.

Shut it down? Everyone involved was dead; he just didn't restart it, instead using the data to boost the Ascension project. And considering what it had already discovered, plus the personnel costs in doing so, there are several non-moral reasons why he didn't restart it.

[Dean_the_Young]

lovgreno wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
But Cerberus isn't structured like that. It never can be. As a cell-structured organization, it's has to leave far more autonomy and discretion to its leaders. Femote oversight is always far more dependent on the ones running it at the place of interest: in Pragia, the leadership across the board actively participated in the coverup, though we hear that TIM and Cerberus were increasingly concerned and on the edge of doing a direct investigation even before Jack's escape.

Then TIM should have done a better job choosing his subcommanders.

Sure. Little argument there, though there's an actual link between 'genius' and 'instability', so 'better' is relative to your cost-benefit.

But I do agree that it's hard to show specific evidence to put the blame on TIM, he is elusive like that. This however doesn't change the fact that the leaders of the "rogue" cells do screw up all the time. No matter who in Cerberus is to blame they still cause a lot of unnecesary fails.

What rogue cells, besides Pragia? 

Pragia was rogue, but was somewhat successful in some of its goals (producing Jack) regardless.

The Overlord project wasn't really rogue, disaster just happened in an unavoidable sort of blind moment that no organization can really stop from happening, and it depicted as fixable.

The Rachni project failed, but the project wasn't rogue, and never would have succeded regardless of what was done.

The Super Soldier project didn't fail on its own, nor was it rogue, it was simply blown up by Shepard.

The Akuze project didn't fail, nor was it rogue (indeed, Cerberus itself wasn't rogue at the time).

The Derilect Reaper team was not rogue, nor did it fail. It was a cost-benefit analysis that was vindicated.

The Lazarus Project didn't fail, nor was it rogue, despite the attempts of a traitor backed by the most powerful infiltration/spymaster in the galaxy to bring it down.

The Normandy didn't fail, even if it did go rogue with Shepard.



And that's even without going into Lair of the Shadow Broker files, which is basically a laundry-list of Cerberus secret accomplishments.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 08 décembre 2010 - 03:23 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Xilizhra wrote...

What makes you think it was easy?

It doesn't sound like the supervisors had to resort to completely new methods to do so; the idea of alterable logs is probably familiar to most people in this universe.

I'm sorry, could you rephrase?

The fact that the logs could be altered (or faked) does not necessarily correlate with that doing so is easy.

Shut it down? Everyone involved was dead; he just didn't restart it, instead using the data to boost the Ascension project. And considering what it had already discovered, plus the personnel costs in doing so, there are several non-moral reasons why he didn't restart it.

I believe it's a post-loyalty email or Miranda who mentions that not everyone was dead when Cerberus arrived.

We certainly know that TIM's not adverse to resurrecting mostly dead cells if their processes are deemed good enough (Overlord being a great example of a far greater, massive cost that TIM notes will be resumed whether or not you keep the boy there or not), and the processes of Pragia that were producing any and all such data were never going to be continued at Ascension.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 08 décembre 2010 - 03:28 .

[Xilizhra]

The fact that the logs could be altered (or faked) does not necessarily correlate with that doing so is easy.

All right, I'll retract that part of my statement, but I think that TIM would have wanted to keep sources of information open that wouldn't rely on the supervisors at all.

We certainly know that TIM's not adverse to resurrecting mostly dead cells if their processes are deemed good enough (Overlord being a great example of a far greater, massive cost that TIM notes will be resumed whether or not you keep the boy there or not), and the processes of Pragia that were producing any and all such data were never going to be continued at Ascension.

Well, no; hiding it in Ascension would be a lot harder. But if there were survivors, they would have reported Jack's clear enormous power, even if there were no data at all about her power level, which I find unlikely. He got the information he wanted, and there was no need to start it again at this juncture.

[Moiaussi]

[quote]Dean_the_Young wrote...

Charles is never implied as taking that sort of stance at all. Infact, Charles stance is well to the moderate side of what we know is included in Terra Firma's membership. Nothing marks Charles as an extremist Terra Firma candidate by Alliance standards, let alone Terra Firma standards.

In many respects, a moderate is far easier to keep a leash on than an extremist, and Charles was chosen for his pliability, not his extremism.[/quote]

You evaded my question. Why would a moderate be more likely to support an organization that is pro human dominance and willing to conduct some of the experiments that we know Cerberus has attempted?

[quote]
[/quote]Being known has everything to do with a state of terror. If people don't know you even exist or act, they're never afraid of you. Few people know about Cerberus, and fewer still no what it's done. There is no mass fear, or even general awareness, that some politicians didn't die of natural causes. Stalin purged entire sectors percentages of the Russian and Eurpean populace with a security system aparatus that everyone knew and feared. That's the difference.

But since you don't even acknowledge the differences in that regard, as I predicted, there's no point in trying further. [/quote]

Look, if people are afraid of Cerberus, they are more likely to consider them a terrorist organization and rally against them. If people are generally afraid, they are more likely to look to an organization like Cerberus to 'save' them. It's a protection scam. That doesn't make it any less terrorism.

[Xilizhra]

You evaded my question. Why would a moderate be more likely to support an organization that is pro human dominance and willing to conduct some of the experiments that we know Cerberus has attempted?

Here, I'd guess it's because TIM doesn't fill him in on everything. Which he doesn't do with anyone.

[Moiaussi]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Nope. It does not put a paranoid state of terror akin to Stalin's Soviet Union.

Unlike Stalin, Cerberus are NOT IN POWER. They are NOT heads of state.... yet. That means their methods are going to be different. Stalin wasn't using those tactics on foreign powers or before the revolution settled out and he came into power.

Instead compare his actions prior to coming into power, his involvement in the revolution itself and the assassinations of his rivals. Again, you are taking an aspect of Stalin's dictatorship after he became dictator and since Cerberus are not currently like that, you are trying to claim there is no comparason, completely ignoring the similarities that do exist. Stalin didn't just terrorize while in power either. He used a lot of propeganda, much of which was successful.

[Moiaussi]

Dean_the_Young wrote...


The Akuze project didn't fail, nor was it rogue (indeed, Cerberus itself wasn't rogue at the time).

Is there evidence that the project actually accomplished anything? It was uncovered, all but one of the scientists (possibly all the scientists) were killed by toombs, and there may have been a full investigation.

And what is your evidence Cerberus was or was not rogue at the time? There is no reference anywhere stating exactly when that happened, and later writing even seems to forget they were ever tied to the Alliance.

[Moiaussi]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

What rogue cells, besides Pragia? 

Pragia was rogue, but was somewhat successful in some of its goals (producing Jack) regardless.

The Overlord project wasn't really rogue, disaster just happened in an unavoidable sort of blind moment that no organization can really stop from happening, and it depicted as fixable.

The Rachni project failed, but the project wasn't rogue, and never would have succeded regardless of what was done.

The Super Soldier project didn't fail on its own, nor was it rogue, it was simply blown up by Shepard.

The Akuze project didn't fail, nor was it rogue (indeed, Cerberus itself wasn't rogue at the time).

The Derilect Reaper team was not rogue, nor did it fail. It was a cost-benefit analysis that was vindicated.

The Lazarus Project didn't fail, nor was it rogue, despite the attempts of a traitor backed by the most powerful infiltration/spymaster in the galaxy to bring it down.

The Normandy didn't fail, even if it did go rogue with Shepard.

And that's even without going into Lair of the Shadow Broker files, which is basically a laundry-list of Cerberus secret accomplishments.

Pragia produced Jack, but Jack herself went rogue, and depending on Shepard, may or may not have been needed for the collector base and may go back to being rogue again.

Overlord failed.

The rachni project failed.

The super soldier program failed.

Akuze might have succeeded, but likely was a big part of Cerberus being labelled a terrorist organization. It is hard to consider that any meaningful level of success considering how little they likely learned from studying thresher maw acid injuries.

I don't see how you can consider the derelect reaper team anything but a failure. By virtue of being converted to husks, they made recovering the IFF harder, while providing no useful data. That the reaper was still partially alive would have been learned when it powered up to keep Shepard inside regardless.

Lazarus might still go rogue, depending on Shepard's decisions at the end of ME2 and in ME3. There was nothing in ME2 that couldn't have been handled by the Alliance and/or other conventional forces if TIM had been willing to simply share and/or leak the data rather than try to do it all in house.

The 'successes' in lair of the shadow broker did increase Cerberus's funding, but noone has questioned their fund raising capabilities.

[Dean_the_Young]

Xilizhra wrote...

The fact that the logs could be altered (or faked) does not necessarily correlate with that doing so is easy.

All right, I'll retract that part of my statement, but I think that TIM would have wanted to keep sources of information open that wouldn't rely on the supervisors at all.

Maybe he did, but wasn't able to. Maybe he was still new to leading such a group, and didn't see the need to press too hard (like, let's admit it, most people here wouldn't on any given thing).

Doubtless I think that, if he didn't do it before then, things changed after.

Well, no; hiding it in Ascension would be a lot harder. But if there were survivors, they would have reported Jack's clear enormous power, even if there were no data at all about her power level, which I find unlikely. He got the information he wanted, and there was no need to start it again at this juncture.

Cerberus has known about Jack's power for years, and have been chasing her for as long. Putting her dossier on Shepard's list is proof they knew of her power. What exactly are you referring to?

[Xilizhra]

Maybe he did, but wasn't able to. Maybe he was still new to leading such a group, and didn't see the need to press too hard (like, let's admit it, most people here wouldn't on any given thing).

How do we know that he wasn't able to? All we know is what he's told Shepard and Miranda, and that the supervisors didn't know about it.

Cerberus has known about Jack's power for years, and have been chasing her for as long. Putting her dossier on Shepard's list is proof they knew of her power. What exactly are you referring to?

Basically, Pragia was a success. Restarting it was unnecessary.

[Dean_the_Young]

Xilizhra wrote...

You evaded my question. Why would a moderate be more likely to support an organization that is pro human dominance and willing to conduct some of the experiments that we know Cerberus has attempted?

Here, I'd guess it's because TIM doesn't fill him in on everything. Which he doesn't do with anyone.

What would TIM fill him in on? Nothing links Charles as a Cerberus member, only someone Cerberus can influence. Which is the same as the case after the Kassa Locust killings, when Cerberus's supported one candidate, lost, but found they could still manipulate the other via bribery. We have a link from Cerberus towards Charles, but none in reverse.

Cerberus doesn't need Terra Firma to support Cerberus, given that Cerberus will operate continually regardless. Terra Firma's usefulness in advancing Cerberus's interests is based off of a popular appeal to the Alliance voters that Cerberus favors.

If Terra Firma is led by an extremist, even if that extremist openly advocates Cerberus, it mitigates itself as a political force. And advocating Cerberus isn't even the Cerberus goal: the entire reason Cerberus exists, after all, was to do things that couldn't be done openly. Firmly supporting Cerberus would cause Council resistence, and that would hurt human interests far more than any gain. An extremist who isn't willing to compromise within the system, be diplomatic, and who increasingly marginalizes the strong-human political spectrum is not an asset to Cerberus, which does not have 'utter resistance to all Alien anything' as a policy (que sharing defense secrets quid pro quo with the Turians to make the Normandy).

If Terra Firma is led by a relative moderate, one who expands the public acceptability of Terra Firma strong-humanity views, Cerberus's goals for a stronger humanity are advanced. It's more than who's in charge of Terra Firma, but also that Terra Firma can get voted into office. You  need someone who can plausibly get Terra Firma accepted and elected by the general public. That is what will strengthen the vaguely Cerberus-aligned policy set, not open support for Cerberus.

[Dean_the_Young]

Xilizhra wrote...

Maybe he did, but wasn't able to. Maybe he was still new to leading such a group, and didn't see the need to press too hard (like, let's admit it, most people here wouldn't on any given thing).

How do we know that he wasn't able to? All we know is what he's told Shepard and Miranda, and that the supervisors didn't know about it.

We don't, but we also don't know that he could have. That was my point. Certainly we have more suggestions of oversight after that.

Cerberus has known about Jack's power for years, and have been chasing her for as long. Putting her dossier on Shepard's list is proof they knew of her power. What exactly are you referring to?

Basically, Pragia was a success. Restarting it was unnecessary.

They could have worked to produce another Jack, or a legion of Jacks, knowing what they did. They could have expanded upon what had already been started, taking that research further. There is no 'over' if you don't know if you have everything.

But they didn't. Which is good.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 08 décembre 2010 - 06:44 .

[Jagri]

Here is the thing... TIM can't keep on top of 150 personnel. Thats just a large division size on a CVN. If a series of accidents were to happen in division while working with dangerous ordnance who is to blame? One mistake after another and the division officer is held accountable. Even if the poor guy doesn't know whats going on even when he should. G-3 Divisional Officer is almost always in Ordnance Control which can be contacted from any weapons magazine.

So TIM is a failure as a leader but I will credit him for having charisma and business sense. While charisma may be a quality in a leader it doesn't alone make a leader. Well perhaps a cult leader can be all charisma.

Even if the point is made he can't keep on top of ever detail then those he assigns in the position of leadership in these verious projects is flawed. Given the pattern however it would be logical to assume perhaps its not the project leader but a flaw with the leadership above them.

So I still say Cerberus is evil and incompetent.

Modifié par Jagri, 08 décembre 2010 - 10:32 .

[lovgreno]

I actualy don't think the writers intended to make Cerberus look as inept as they sometimes do. I get the feeling they rather just wanted to create a situation where our hero Shepard could make a daring and flashy defeat of the nasty monsters. They just used the "wacky experiment gone wrong" cliché a bit too much. But I can't say what the writers realy intended of course.



However this doesn't change the fact that the confirmed history we do know about Cerberus makes them look rather bad.

[Moiaussi]

Actually mostly I think the writers (a) don't have a good sense of scale. They keep seeming to contradict themselves. The collector ship is identified as a cruiser, yet appearantly has the interior hull space of a super dreadnaught (enough that the millions of occupants of the terminus systems wouldn't fill the pods).



Cerberus alledgedly has only 150 people per cell yet if shepard dies, they seem to have a small fleet of ships available to take over the collector base.



Cord H probably has rather a lot more than 150 workers let alone the rest of Cerberus. Many 'colonies' in ME1 seem to be more like outposts, with a couple dozen people at best. Its like in ME2, everyone said 'hey, space is dangerous, cool! Lets all move there!' ... Either that or the Alliance is so lousy a place to live that they all moved to the Terminus systems because even living with pirate raids was better.....



It is also quite plausable that the whole 'teaming with Cerberus' thing was a re-write based on someone's cool idea, so the suddenly had to reconcile ME1's Cerberus with ME2 but simply weren't good enough to pull it off.

[Zulu_DFA]

Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams wrote...

Ya know why they call it an Xbox 360? Because when you look at . . . never mind.

Nozybidaj wrote...

ME1 Cerberus was evil. ME2 Cerberus was the good guys. I imagine ME3 Cerberus will depend largely on who the lead writer is.

ME1: We really don't know enough about Cerberus to pass judgement.

ME2: Yes, they were the good guys.

ME3: If Drew Karpyshshyn has his way it would seem they would turn out to be bad guys. In Retribution he stated multiple times that Cerberus wanted to eradicate all non humans. This irked me greatly as I didn't find it to be consistent with ME1 or 2 at all. Not to mention the fact that it is a completely unrealistic goal for such a small splinter group.

???

Where in Retribution is it stated that "Cerberus wanted to eradicate all non humans"? Even Kai Leng doesn't hate aliens much, more like he simply looks down on them. Racism & segregation =/= genocide.

To me it doesn't seem like there is any controversy about Cerberus between Karpyshyn and Walters. It's more like their combined effort to make Cerberus as much ambigous as possible and some sort of "nasty good guys" failed first thanks to the power of general audience's preconceptions about certain real life dictators with whom TIM associates in their collective mind, and second due to the extent of "Cerberus ineptness" (which even surpasses their evilness) delivered by courtesy of the support writers and other dev departments for the sake of coolness and fluent gameplay.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 09 décembre 2010 - 06:59 .

[Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams wrote...

ME1: We really don't know enough about Cerberus to pass judgement.

ME2: Yes, they were the good guys.

ME3: If Drew Karpyshshyn has his way it would seem they would turn out to be bad guys. In Retribution he stated multiple times that Cerberus wanted to eradicate all non humans. This irked me greatly as I didn't find it to be consistent with ME1 or 2 at all. Not to mention the fact that it is a completely unrealistic goal for such a small splinter group.

???

Where in Retribution it is stated that "Cerberus wanted to eradicate all non humans"? Even Kai Leng doesn't hate aliens much, more like he simply looks down on them. Racism & segregation =/= genocide.

To me it doesn't seem like there is any controversy about Cerberus between Karpyshyn and Walters. It's more like their combined effort to make Cerberus as much ambigous as possible and some sort of "nasty good guys" failed first thanks to the power of general audience's preconceptions about certain real life dictators with whom TIM associates in their collective mind, and second due to the extent of "Cerberus ineptness" delivered by the support writers and other dev departments for the sake of coolness and fluent gameplay.

I'll have to find some page numbers when I get a chance. From what I remember it was Drew's description of Cerberus not statements made by TIM or Kai Leng. I may be mistaken and it might have been the misguided thoughts of Kahlee or Anderson (whose actions bordered on treason in the novel). I'll take a look and get back to you with page numbers.

[Zulu_DFA]

Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams wrote...
I'll have to find some page numbers when I get a chance. From what I remember it was Drew's description of Cerberus not statements made by TIM or Kai Leng. I may be mistaken and it might have been the misguided thoughts of Kahlee or Anderson (whose actions bordered on treason in the novel). I'll take a look and get back to you with page numbers.

I bet, it's reported speech of some Turian, during the mounting of the attack against Cerberus.

What Drew really says of TIM is that Mark Twain is one of his favorite writers. See the Epilogue, TIM quotes Mark Twain there. I seriously doubt that a bad guy can get characterized in this way.

[Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams wrote...
I'll have to find some page numbers when I get a chance. From what I remember it was Drew's description of Cerberus not statements made by TIM or Kai Leng. I may be mistaken and it might have been the misguided thoughts of Kahlee or Anderson (whose actions bordered on treason in the novel). I'll take a look and get back to you with page numbers.

I bet, it's reported speech of some Turian, during the mounting of the attack against Cerberus.

What Drew really says of TIM is that Mark Twain is one of his favorite writers. See the Epilogue, TIM quotes Mark Twain there. I seriously doubt that a bad guy can get characterized in this way.

I might have been mistaken. I remember when reading them I found the statements to be inconsistent with the book. I like Cerberus despite ME trying to make you think they're evil ("the Cerberus group has a lot to answer for," unanimous crew mate response to collector base, only hostile dialogue with TIM at the end, etc.). But alas, I am tired and if I ever get around to struggling through Retribution again I'll make note of the statements.

[Zulu_DFA]

Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams wrote...
I'll have to find some page numbers when I get a chance. From what I remember it was Drew's description of Cerberus not statements made by TIM or Kai Leng. I may be mistaken and it might have been the misguided thoughts of Kahlee or Anderson (whose actions bordered on treason in the novel). I'll take a look and get back to you with page numbers.

I bet, it's reported speech of some Turian, during the mounting of the attack against Cerberus.

What Drew really says of TIM is that Mark Twain is one of his favorite writers. See the Epilogue, TIM quotes Mark Twain there. I seriously doubt that a bad guy can get characterized in this way.

I might have been mistaken. I remember when reading them I found the statements to be inconsistent with the book. I like Cerberus despite ME trying to make you think they're evil ("the Cerberus group has a lot to answer for," unanimous crew mate response to collector base, only hostile dialogue with TIM at the end, etc.). But alas, I am tired and if I ever get around to struggling through Retribution again I'll make note of the statements.

Found it. In the beginning of Chapter 9, Kahlee muses why the Turians keep tabs on Cerberus and comes up with this bright explanation.


As to Retribution as a whole, despite one of the few Cerberus' actual failures -- the underestimation of Paul Grayson even after his defection, which resulted in a huge security breach -- it still ended up as a Cerberus success against all odds (beware of spoilers).

As to the "Cerberus group has a lot to answer for", Catch a grenade, Cerberus haters!

[Xilizhra]

Really? I think that sort of dialogue is nicely consistent with ME1, and there are few enough times when that happens; being forced to work with Cerberus was annoying enough, there's no need to make us like them too.

[Zulu_DFA]

Xilizhra wrote...

Really? I think that sort of dialogue is nicely consistent with ME1,
and there are few enough times when that happens; being forced to work
with Cerberus was annoying enough, there's no need to make us like them
too.

If you were made to like them, you wouldn't find it annoying to have to work for them.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 09 décembre 2010 - 12:29 .

[Xilizhra]

Very well, attempt to make us like them.

[Zulu_DFA]

Xilizhra wrote...

Very well, attempt to make us like them.

Wasn't TIM's idea, BTW. Jacob's.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 09 décembre 2010 - 12:36 .