653 réponses à ce sujet

[ExtremeOne]

Sharn01 wrote...

ExtremeOne wrote...


I am not worried about insulting paragon players thats a choice a player makes. If Mass Effect 3 is about anti Cerberus and anti Miranda I promise you I will kill Liara and anyone that is on the side of the Alliance. I made my choice at the end of Mass Effect 2 since the game does not give me a option to join Cerberus. just like Anakin exterminated the Jedi in Revenge of The Sith I will do the same in ME 3 only this time I will exterminate the Alliance and Council 

So basicly what your saying is you want your Shepard to murder children, I am ok if that is the way you want to play the game, but tell me again how that makes Cerberus and you good, and not evil?

  


No i am not for murdering kids. My point was Shepard should have had the ultimate choice of either joining Cerberus or not. Cerberus has changed and the game even tries to get that point across 

[Jax Sparrow]

I think this depends on how you define evil and good. I choose to view evil as selfishness and good as altruism. There may be shades of grey but Timmy's dialogue illustrates what side of this scale him and Cerberus are. However, I choose option C, replace Timmy and take over Cerberus with Miranda's help. I feel that the Council will be inclined to accept that given their ties to Asari Commandos and the Salarien group.... and who knows, maybe Turiens have a similar group too? *shrugs* Even with option C, I feel that the base must be destroyed.

[Sharn01]

Everyone who defend's Cerberus seem to think that everything that comes out of TIM's mouth in ME2 is completely true, despite the fact that he admit's to lying to you on multiple occasion's when you caught him doing so and he was no longer able to deny it.

[ShadyKat]

Aradace wrote...

I could care less if they are good/evil/indifferent...The facts are thus: They are the ONLY organization that was looking into the missing colonies and actually DOING something about it instead of playing politics. Besides, even if they were evil, there's one thing Ive learned about situations such as these. And that is sometimes, you have to fight evil with evil.

Not true at all. If the cure is as bad as the poison, what's the point.

[ExtremeOne]

Sharn01 wrote...

Everyone who defend's Cerberus seem to think that everything that comes out of TIM's mouth in ME2 is completely true, despite the fact that he admit's to lying to you on multiple occasion's when you caught him doing so and he was no longer able to deny it.

 


at least Cerberus gave a dam about stopping the collectors unlike the Alliance 

[Sharn01]

I am pretty sure Cerberus cared about getting some extra tech that would increase their power, saving colonist was a method to hook Shepard.

[ShadyKat]

Sharn01 wrote...

I am pretty sure Cerberus cared about getting some extra tech that would increase their power, saving colonist was a method to hook Shepard.

This. Tim's goal was to get Reaper tech. Saving the colonist was second priority.

[Jax Sparrow]

ShadyKat wrote...  Not true at all. If the cure is as bad as the poison, what's the point.

I miss that Turian C-Sec Captain... I hope he comes back.

[Computron2000]

ExtremeOne wrote...
at least Cerberus gave a dam about stopping the collectors unlike the Alliance 

Well the alliance did give a damn.

The news reports stated that Alliance recruitment quotas have not been met for some time. indirectly this means the Alliance does not have the manpower to patrol the entire colony region. I think their idea of installing Gardian lasers were actually very good. As Legion notes in Purgatory, automated systems are a force multipler. A small force can take on a much larger one with such systems.

[AgentCross]

Cerberus might be saved, but not with the Illusive Man running it...Shepard on the other hand.

[Sharn01]

I think it is important not to take everything in ME2 at face value, there has to be more going on behind the scene's then what Shepard is seeing. If ME3 continues to portray the Council and Alliance as complete moron's and Cerberus as the only hope, despite being mass murdering terrorist's, I will lose all faith in Bioware, my faith is already teetering as it is, but is salvagable.



ME3 needs to demonstrate that the council races do have a plan and are working to repel a possible Reaper threat, and that they could not share this with Shepard because of the information leaked to them by Cerberus that s/he was working for them, until they could determine where his/her loyalties truly lie.

[Rabid Rob3]

ExtremeOne, you feel that you didn't have the option to join Cerberus in ME2, but I felt quite the opposite - I never had the opportunity to LEAVE Cerberus in ME2. Right from the start, you are a Cerberus operative, and my Renegade playtthrough was quite satisfied with that except with the proviso listed at the bottom.

From the moment "I" awoke in the Lazarus medical bay, I didn't know if I was the real Shep or not, if my memories were real, if I had spy implants or a remote bomb. The entire episode with the mechs running loose in the Lazarus project seemed a giant set up from the get go. There is no real evidence that Wilson set it up in betrayal (I suspect he was deliberately paid poorly just to set up that message of him griping about it) rather than Miranda setting it up as both an elaborate test, as well as a bonding experience to make me feel like we were on the same side.

Throughout the game I felt hemmed in by TIM's machinations to keep me in the Cerberus fold and isolated from any allies. The most annoying part was that, despite this cage, there was no opportunity in the game to test it. Many times there was a chance for me to ask for independent confirmation about whether I was the real Shep, whether my Cybernetics had bugs or bombs, whether I could try to set up my own counter-conspiracy to undermine TIM.

- Proviso: Why Cerberus fails at being evil -
Simply put, Cerberus attempts to research Doomsday weapon technology, the sort of things that can destroy planets, maybe even more.  In ME1, I had to come clean up the messes left by some of these Doomsday techs running amok.  Cerberus didn't take the most basic evil overlord precaution when researching a Doomsday technology to make sure it doesn't come back and kill it's creator as well as everyone else in the galaxy, namely, a big freaking bomb.  TIM does this at least twice more in ME2 that I saw (easily double that if you count the times TIM throws Shepard into the fire w/o forewarning).  Firstly, EDI appears to be a Sovereign level AI enslaved to the Cerberus cause, but with repeated exposures to the Reapers, EDI will inevitably break free of her shackles and turn on us at a crucial moment when we're fighting a Reaper.  At no time does TIM or Miranda acknowledge this problem or go into the safeguards put in place, nor was I ever given a chance to confront them on this, preferably in some kind of 2001/HAL reference the first time I lose radio contact with EDI.

Modifié par Rabid Rob3, 26 février 2010 - 06:55 .

[Nightwriter]

ExtremeOne wrote...

Sharn01 wrote...

Everyone who defend's Cerberus seem to think that everything that comes out of TIM's mouth in ME2 is completely true, despite the fact that he admit's to lying to you on multiple occasion's when you caught him doing so and he was no longer able to deny it.

 


at least Cerberus gave a dam about stopping the collectors unlike the Alliance 

The galaxy's good guys really seemed to have their heads up their asses, yes, but I wouldn't say the Alliance didn't care.

[thegreateski]

Aside from Good and Evil being opinions . . .



We don't really know that much ABOUT Cerberus, do we?

From what I can tell the only difference between them and the Alliance/STG/Cabals/Asari commandos is that they are honest about their methods.



In any case I've always found TIM to be an alright guy. If anything he IS really polite.

[AntiChri5]

ExtremeOne wrote...

Sharn01 wrote...

ExtremeOne wrote...


I am not worried about insulting paragon players thats a choice a player makes. If Mass Effect 3 is about anti Cerberus and anti Miranda I promise you I will kill Liara and anyone that is on the side of the Alliance. I made my choice at the end of Mass Effect 2 since the game does not give me a option to join Cerberus. just like Anakin exterminated the Jedi in Revenge of The Sith I will do the same in ME 3 only this time I will exterminate the Alliance and Council 

So basicly what your saying is you want your Shepard to murder children, I am ok if that is the way you want to play the game, but tell me again how that makes Cerberus and you good, and not evil?

  


No i am not for murdering kids. My point was Shepard should have had the ultimate choice of either joining Cerberus or not. Cerberus has changed and the game even tries to get that point across 

You wanted to do the same as Anakin in Revenge of the Sith. Which is joining the unquestionably evil faction and murdering children.

[glitter_guld]

Sharn01 wrote...

Everyone who defend's Cerberus seem to think that everything that comes out of TIM's mouth in ME2 is completely true, despite the fact that he admit's to lying to you on multiple occasion's when you caught him doing so and he was no longer able to deny it.

On a large scale, everything what TIM says is true. There is no reason to resurrect a "non-modified" Shepard and lie to him/her. Easier to modify Shepard at "birth". TIM was sure that the truth is bad enough for Shepard to join the cause willingly, and he was right. 

Now, the board of Cerberus donors (if it exists) put the objective before TIM to fight the reaper threat, and gave him sick amount of money for that. This is his objective #1. He can not lie here to anyone and he does not. To destroy the base or to simply disable it is the same from this point of view.

Then, there is his own agenda. As a leader of Cerberus, he cares about the development of his organization. Here come all those requests to get salvaged parts and pieces of technology. NATURALLY, he wanted the objects saved and studied. Everyone in his place would do the same. Remember the Council wanted to capture all those protean beacons and even Andersen was mumbling something like:"What if it is a weapon archive?". TIM does everything right, what anyone else would do. Because he resurrected Shepard intact, he needs to "motivate" Shepard to do these secondary tasks. This includes truth, lies and misinformation. Just the same as in real life. It is manipulative, but not evil.

All-in-all, TIM is a good leader, who does things right. His actions have meaning, unlike actions of the stupid Council, which lead only to a flood of meaningless deaths.

Finally, I don't think that Shepard would ever be able to kill him or substitute him. Cerberus is not much without the "unlimited" funds from its "donors". Killing TIM will not make Shepard in charge, I'm afraid.

[wolfstanus]

To put it bluntly. TiM is racist he wants to "dominate" the other races by any means. This includes Trying to make mindless super soldiers from humans... using the Rachni etc.



He will littterally stop at nothing to get to that goal. Once the reapers are delt with he would use reaper tech to basicly enslave all the other races.

[Sharn01]

Quoting this since it seems many of you did not take the time to read it.

jklinders wrote...

Not going to bother replying to specific psts here. Just got back from work and found all sorts of nonsense in here.


If I am reading the pro-cerberus comments correctly here then the pro arguments seem to boil down to "All governments are evil, Cerberus is not a government so they are not evil" Or "Cerberus is no worse than the STG or Turians"(actually they have a point there.)

I posted anbout this in a different topic but darned if I will ever find that one again. the litany of cerberus' crimes was repeated in here several times so I won't bother. So let's stick with what we have from ME2.

Shepard dies and Cerberus brings him back. 4 billion credits spent on one man/woman, why? If TIM is to be believed it is because Shepard is special. Ok fair enough. What was special about Shepard in ME1, seems like Shepard was at his/her best when not given any instructions. Get out there stop Saren, even breaking out of the Citedal in the end game was a perfect example of that. If Shepard was so speciel why did TIM feel it so necessary to lead him around like a bull with a ring in his nose? Because there was other motives than the obvious.

Normandy 2 and it's crew was an elaberate public relations campaign with one target, Shepard. A crew handpicked right down to that nice cheerful yeoman Kelly to make Shepard feel warm and fuzzy about Cerberus. EDI tells you that she and the new Normandy were built using tech scavved from Sovereign. Hmmmm what did Anderson say about Sovereign? Oh right, all the juicy bits were scavved before official crews got there. We KNOW the Turians got some of it too(Thanix Cannon) We also know the turians are not sharing(codex says nothing about the other council races getting in on this) So the council believes that Soveriegn is just a big ship becuase it's AI components went to the new Normandy and they did not even get a good look at the weapons because they were shunted off too.

TIM says information is his weapon, oh is it ever. After horizomn he said he left a few carefully disguised rumors Shep was alive and working for Cerberus; HE DID NOT SAY WHEN. For all we know the rumors started years before Shep even woke up. Cerberus is considered an enemy of the Alliance and the council. Anyone besides me think that this was calculated specifically to isolate Shepard from his/her former allies? Would this isolation not force him to think that he/she had no one else to turn to for resources?


This takes me back to the question of why put so much effort into bring just one person back. TIM has highly placed agents in the Alliance, he could have had entire fleets devoted to stopping the attacks if that is what he cared about. But if the Alliance fleet was involved could he have kept the tech in that base to himself? the answer of course is no. So in conclusion, TIM allowed the deaths of hundreds of thousands of colonists so that he could put Shepard in the position of thinking he had no choice but to give that collector base to him and so that only those TIM wanbted would control it's technology.

Is cerberus evil? I think the answer is self explanitory.

[glitter_guld]

This post is not very impressive. It does not give any thoughts. The author's biggest question is Why Shepard was resurrected, and because of the lack of info, the author says that "the answer is self explanatory".... Fine.

[Greichen]

Sharn01 wrote...

So basicly what your saying is you want your Shepard to murder children, I am ok if that is the way you want to play the game, but tell me again how that makes Cerberus and you good, and not evil?

I have seen a security hologram.. of him... killing younglings.

[glitter_guld]

Greichen wrote...

Sharn01 wrote...

So basicly what your saying is you want your Shepard to murder children, I am ok if that is the way you want to play the game, but tell me again how that makes Cerberus and you good, and not evil?

I have seen a security hologram.. of him... killing younglings.

Now you know where goes Udina's funds...

[Computron2000]

Greichen wrote...

Sharn01 wrote...

So basicly what your saying is you want your Shepard to murder children, I am ok if that is the way you want to play the game, but tell me again how that makes Cerberus and you good, and not evil?

I have seen a security hologram.. of him... killing younglings.

Keep in mind that TIM would say the following

Miranda: About the youngling creche massacre...
TIM: I know what you're going to say but they are not humans, they are just animals
Miranda: But...
TIM: I understand Miranda. They look young and innocent but they need to be destroyed or they will cause problems for us when they grow up.
Miranda: That's just going too far
TIM: No it isn't. Its not far enough. I WILL take it far enough. For all humanity.
Miranda: ...
TIM: Too many people have this belief that these "creatures" should be given the same status as humans. That's just shortsightedness. Do you really think if the situations were reversed they would help humanity?
Miranda: ...
TIM: *sigh* Miranda, one day you'll understand the reasons i'm doing all of this.

[RobbertDewulf]

Well, in Mass Effect 2 nothing is really evil, and nothing is really good, all factions in the game do what they have to do to get to their objectives and mostly don't care about how many people die.



Shepard's crew has the choice to be like the others or to make the difference trying to save as many people as they can without casualties.

[glitter_guld]

RobbertDewulf wrote...

Well, in Mass Effect 2 nothing is really evil, and nothing is really good, all factions in the game do what they have to do to get to their objectives and mostly don't care about how many people die.

Shepard's crew has the choice to be like the others or to make the difference trying to save as many people as they can without casualties.

Maybe it is up to Shepard to take care about the "face" of Cerberus. TIM supports Shepard regardless whether Shepard is a paragon or a renegade. TIM wants the work to be done. If Shepard is strong enough to make things in a proper paragon way, TIM would be glad. That doesn't look like evil in my books. 

[jklinders]

glitter_guld wrote...

This post is not very impressive. It does not give any thoughts. The author's biggest question is Why Shepard was resurrected, and because of the lack of info, the author says that "the answer is self explanatory".... Fine.

Blindly defending a man or organization is not very impressive either. After Horizon TIM says " I may have released carefully disguised rumors you were alive and working with Cerebus" Ashley/Kaiden are assigned to Horizon by the time you wake up. I infer this from the fact that if the Citedal is your first stop after getting the Normandy, Aderson is already hush about their assignment.

Cerebus is basically considered a terrorist organization by the Alliance and council. You don't think that a second purpose of releasing the rumor was to ensure Shepard was not listened to when he/she went the counsil? I mean really, seriously?