653 réponses à ce sujet

[BurstAngel75]

Cerberus has all the best intention in the galaxy to do good for humanity, And we all know what paves the road to hell - good intentions.

The base is far too powerful, and lets face it humaity wounldn't stop once it has its hands on it. The Alliance would be no better, that would cause a full scale war with the other races and everyone will want their hands on it.

[The Mythical Magician]

Cerberus is "evil" when you put all the galaxy's races into the picture. TIM thinks humans to be superior so to humans I would say he is not "evil"...yet though if I gave him the Collector/Reaper tech at the end then I can imagine him turning his image around and become quite the little *** to everyone in ME3. Plus I can see TIM sacrificing all the aliens to the reapers to keep humanity alive so yes I believe Cerberus is indeed an "evil" corp.

[Bigdoser]

Sharn01 wrote...

Quoting this since it seems many of you did not take the time to read it.

jklinders wrote...

Not going to bother replying to specific psts here. Just got back from work and found all sorts of nonsense in here.


If I am reading the pro-cerberus comments correctly here then the pro arguments seem to boil down to "All governments are evil, Cerberus is not a government so they are not evil" Or "Cerberus is no worse than the STG or Turians"(actually they have a point there.)

I posted anbout this in a different topic but darned if I will ever find that one again. the litany of cerberus' crimes was repeated in here several times so I won't bother. So let's stick with what we have from ME2.

Shepard dies and Cerberus brings him back. 4 billion credits spent on one man/woman, why? If TIM is to be believed it is because Shepard is special. Ok fair enough. What was special about Shepard in ME1, seems like Shepard was at his/her best when not given any instructions. Get out there stop Saren, even breaking out of the Citedal in the end game was a perfect example of that. If Shepard was so speciel why did TIM feel it so necessary to lead him around like a bull with a ring in his nose? Because there was other motives than the obvious.

Normandy 2 and it's crew was an elaberate public relations campaign with one target, Shepard. A crew handpicked right down to that nice cheerful yeoman Kelly to make Shepard feel warm and fuzzy about Cerberus. EDI tells you that she and the new Normandy were built using tech scavved from Sovereign. Hmmmm what did Anderson say about Sovereign? Oh right, all the juicy bits were scavved before official crews got there. We KNOW the Turians got some of it too(Thanix Cannon) We also know the turians are not sharing(codex says nothing about the other council races getting in on this) So the council believes that Soveriegn is just a big ship becuase it's AI components went to the new Normandy and they did not even get a good look at the weapons because they were shunted off too.

TIM says information is his weapon, oh is it ever. After horizomn he said he left a few carefully disguised rumors Shep was alive and working for Cerberus; HE DID NOT SAY WHEN. For all we know the rumors started years before Shep even woke up. Cerberus is considered an enemy of the Alliance and the council. Anyone besides me think that this was calculated specifically to isolate Shepard from his/her former allies? Would this isolation not force him to think that he/she had no one else to turn to for resources?


This takes me back to the question of why put so much effort into bring just one person back. TIM has highly placed agents in the Alliance, he could have had entire fleets devoted to stopping the attacks if that is what he cared about. But if the Alliance fleet was involved could he have kept the tech in that base to himself? the answer of course is no. So in conclusion, TIM allowed the deaths of hundreds of thousands of colonists so that he could put Shepard in the position of thinking he had no choice but to give that collector base to him and so that only those TIM wanbted would control it's technology.

Is cerberus evil? I think the answer is self explanitory.

READ THIS PEOPLE READ IT. >_>

[glitter_guld]

jklinders wrote...

glitter_guld wrote...

This post is not very impressive. It does not give any thoughts. The author's biggest question is Why Shepard was resurrected, and because of the lack of info, the author says that "the answer is self explanatory".... Fine.

Blindly defending a man or organization is not very impressive either. After Horizon TIM says " I may have released carefully disguised rumors you were alive and working with Cerebus" Ashley/Kaiden are assigned to Horizon by the time you wake up. I infer this from the fact that if the Citedal is your first stop after getting the Normandy, Aderson is already hush about their assignment.

Cerebus is basically considered a terrorist organization by the Alliance and council. You don't think that a second purpose of releasing the rumor was to ensure Shepard was not listened to when he/she went the counsil? I mean really, seriously?

I am not blind. I didn't mean to offend you, sorry. I actually plainly see that for all their faults, it is Shepard saved the Universe, as we know it, in ME1, and it is TIM that saved it in ME2. Was it his brilliant idea to revive Shepard, I do not know, but it outweights all those 12 marines, compromized school security and all the other kindergarten nonsense that Cerberus was doing previously. Even Shepard understands that! Yet, many people close their eyes for the big picture and live in terms of small crimes and punishments as if nothing is going on, the Council is holy and protects us all, while the Council does nothing but creating troubles all the freaking time. If not for TIM and Shepard, we would have a Universe populated by indoctrinated and husks already. He, actually, is saving even the council. Not bad for a terrorist organization.

[wolfstanus]

Bigdoser wrote...

Sharn01 wrote...

Quoting this since it seems many of you did not take the time to read it.

jklinders wrote...

Not going to bother replying to specific psts here. Just got back from work and found all sorts of nonsense in here.


If I am reading the pro-cerberus comments correctly here then the pro arguments seem to boil down to "All governments are evil, Cerberus is not a government so they are not evil" Or "Cerberus is no worse than the STG or Turians"(actually they have a point there.)

I posted anbout this in a different topic but darned if I will ever find that one again. the litany of cerberus' crimes was repeated in here several times so I won't bother. So let's stick with what we have from ME2.

Shepard dies and Cerberus brings him back. 4 billion credits spent on one man/woman, why? If TIM is to be believed it is because Shepard is special. Ok fair enough. What was special about Shepard in ME1, seems like Shepard was at his/her best when not given any instructions. Get out there stop Saren, even breaking out of the Citedal in the end game was a perfect example of that. If Shepard was so speciel why did TIM feel it so necessary to lead him around like a bull with a ring in his nose? Because there was other motives than the obvious.

Normandy 2 and it's crew was an elaberate public relations campaign with one target, Shepard. A crew handpicked right down to that nice cheerful yeoman Kelly to make Shepard feel warm and fuzzy about Cerberus. EDI tells you that she and the new Normandy were built using tech scavved from Sovereign. Hmmmm what did Anderson say about Sovereign? Oh right, all the juicy bits were scavved before official crews got there. We KNOW the Turians got some of it too(Thanix Cannon) We also know the turians are not sharing(codex says nothing about the other council races getting in on this) So the council believes that Soveriegn is just a big ship becuase it's AI components went to the new Normandy and they did not even get a good look at the weapons because they were shunted off too.

TIM says information is his weapon, oh is it ever. After horizomn he said he left a few carefully disguised rumors Shep was alive and working for Cerberus; HE DID NOT SAY WHEN. For all we know the rumors started years before Shep even woke up. Cerberus is considered an enemy of the Alliance and the council. Anyone besides me think that this was calculated specifically to isolate Shepard from his/her former allies? Would this isolation not force him to think that he/she had no one else to turn to for resources?


This takes me back to the question of why put so much effort into bring just one person back. TIM has highly placed agents in the Alliance, he could have had entire fleets devoted to stopping the attacks if that is what he cared about. But if the Alliance fleet was involved could he have kept the tech in that base to himself? the answer of course is no. So in conclusion, TIM allowed the deaths of hundreds of thousands of colonists so that he could put Shepard in the position of thinking he had no choice but to give that collector base to him and so that only those TIM wanbted would control it's technology.

Is cerberus evil? I think the answer is self explanitory.

READ THIS PEOPLE READ IT. >_>

But I can't read...


on a serious note if you read Ascension  play ME etc then its so obvious that cerberus is evil.

[N7 Om3ga]

The Illusive man is like Lex Luthor he thinks hes a Hero and that he needs to save the galaxy but in truth hes a Villain..

[Annjul666]

i wouldnt be surprised if Bioware turned them in me3 into saviors of galaxy- they just give us reasons to think they are evil but maybe there is a hint somewhere, hidden purpose which we dont notice.

well, the hell is built on good wills. i think they want good, but their actions are too determined.

[Astranagant]

Cerberus isn't "evil" in the sense that the Illusive Man sits around rubbing his hands together cackling maniacally about the deliciously evil plans he has for the galaxy, but they're bad since their goal is human domination of the galaxy, which means human domination of all other races in the galaxy.

[glitter_guld]

Astranagant wrote...

Cerberus isn't "evil" in the sense that the Illusive Man sits around rubbing his hands together cackling maniacally about the deliciously evil plans he has for the galaxy, but they're bad since their goal is human domination of the galaxy, which means human domination of all other races in the galaxy.

I don't think that goal is bad at all, to be a dominant race, that is. Everything depends on the cost, of course...

[GnusmasTHX]

As long as they aren't evil to humans (in general), then I'm impartial.

[wolfstanus]

GnusmasTHX wrote...

As long as they aren't evil to humans (in general), then I'm impartial.

They kinda are...

[sjrskl]

yea how could a huge three headed dog ever be considered evil (wait wrong cerberus)



right so a group that suposidly is pro-human still experiments on humans with al manner of uglyness just to "advance the human race" , sure it could be debated they're not evil because they revived you but that's just a plot device it doesn't suddenly turn them into saints

[glitter_guld]

sjrskl wrote...

yea how could a huge three headed dog ever be considered evil (wait wrong cerberus)

right so a group that suposidly is pro-human still experiments on humans with al manner of uglyness just to "advance the human race" , sure it could be debated they're not evil because they revived you but that's just a plot device it doesn't suddenly turn them into saints

That three-headed dog, you mentioned, is a direct rip-off of a vorlon's three-edged sword. There is always one side, the other side and the truth, which is the way of learning. Cerberus are not saints, but their experiments is only one side of the three-edged sword. Or not?

[DefiantRye]

They certainly are a ruthless organisation but a few of there members seem likable Jacob, Kelly, even Miranda the ice queen opens up as you get to know her better. Don't like the Illusive man at all he is a creep.

[Asheer_Khan]

glitter_guld wrote...

sjrskl wrote...

yea how could a huge three headed dog ever be considered evil (wait wrong cerberus)

right so a group that suposidly is pro-human still experiments on humans with al manner of uglyness just to "advance the human race" , sure it could be debated they're not evil because they revived you but that's just a plot device it doesn't suddenly turn them into saints

That three-headed dog, you mentioned, is a direct rip-off of a vorlon's three-edged sword. There is always one side, the other side and the truth, which is the way of learning. Cerberus are not saints, but their experiments is only one side of the three-edged sword. Or not?

*Sigh...* What did you teach in school people???

Original mythological Cerberus was tree headed dog guarded entry to Hades the land of the dead so no living people could pass that gate or dead people escapes from Hades and not some freakin volron sword....

Modifié par Asheer_Khan, 26 février 2010 - 11:17 .

[KoRnAh]

Well... Cerberus isn't EVIL...



They're EXTREMISTS. Plus they don't like aliens much, but they're not EVIL like.. OH YEZ, WE'RE GONNA TAKE OVER THE GALAXYZ"



They just do what they think is best for humanity in a low-moral and extremist way.

[glitter_guld]

Asheer_Khan wrote...

glitter_guld wrote...

sjrskl wrote...

yea how could a huge three headed dog ever be considered evil (wait wrong cerberus)

right so a group that suposidly is pro-human still experiments on humans with al manner of uglyness just to "advance the human race" , sure it could be debated they're not evil because they revived you but that's just a plot device it doesn't suddenly turn them into saints

That three-headed dog, you mentioned, is a direct rip-off of a vorlon's three-edged sword. There is always one side, the other side and the truth, which is the way of learning. Cerberus are not saints, but their experiments is only one side of the three-edged sword. Or not?

*Sigh...* What did you teach in school people???

Original mythological Cerberus was tree headed dog guarded entry to Hades the land of the dead so no living people could pass that gate or dead people escapes from Hades and not some freakin volron sword....

Oh, no problem here. Cerberus' three heads can be anything dependent on its origin and the context.

[KoRnAh]

Annjul666 wrote...

i wouldnt be surprised if Bioware turned them in me3 into saviors of galaxy- they just give us reasons to think they are evil but maybe there is a hint somewhere, hidden purpose which we dont notice.
well, the hell is built on good wills. i think they want good, but their actions are too determined.

Amen.

As i just said, they're ruthless and extremist... not EVIL.

They do things that the Alliance or the Council would never do because of morality or w/e... for example.. experimenting on husks... i don't see the bad side on that as long as you understand they're not either human nor alien. On Geth or other races... there i would not support them.. but yet again... they might find a new path in ME3... I think Miranda should take over Cerberus or something.. however cold she is, deep inside there's a warm loving human waiting to do some good.

No matter Cerberus intentions... good or bad.. i'd never trust a man with those eyes. (Though i loved Sheen's voice lines... he's just perfect for TIM's role.)

[ExtremeOne]

You all need to remember that in ME 2 Shepard might have been brought back by Cerberus and TIM but he was brought back under directions of Cerberus Operative Miranda under the Lazarus Project

[Kalfear]

ExtremeOne wrote...

You all need to remember that in ME 2 Shepard might have been brought back by Cerberus and TIM but he was brought back under directions of Cerberus Operative Miranda under the Lazarus Project

?????

Sorry but I completely missed your point?

Whats Miranda being lead go getter for the Lazarus project got to do with anything?????

[Xandurpein]

Blow up the Collector base and TIM will angrily tell you "Cerberus IS humanity". Someone is perhaps getting a slightly skewed world view and needs to be kept away from real political power it seems to me.



Cerbereus aren't evil as such, just as a tyrant isn't necessarily evil. But Cerberus are an elitist organisation and not accountable to anyone. TIM decides what is good for humanity, whatever the rest of humanity thinks, just as the old Soviet regime, and countless other tyrants, acted in the name of the people, whom they never bothered to ask what they wanted.



Even if what happened to Jack wasn't sanctioned by TIM, that is precisely the type of things that happens in an organization where there is no accountability to some outside body.



The fact that Cerberus did the right thing in reviving Shepard just proves that you can do the right thing for the wrong reasons.

[jklinders]

glitter_guld wrote...

jklinders wrote...

glitter_guld wrote...

This post is not very impressive. It does not give any thoughts. The author's biggest question is Why Shepard was resurrected, and because of the lack of info, the author says that "the answer is self explanatory".... Fine.

Blindly defending a man or organization is not very impressive either. After Horizon TIM says " I may have released carefully disguised rumors you were alive and working with Cerebus" Ashley/Kaiden are assigned to Horizon by the time you wake up. I infer this from the fact that if the Citedal is your first stop after getting the Normandy, Aderson is already hush about their assignment.

Cerebus is basically considered a terrorist organization by the Alliance and council. You don't think that a second purpose of releasing the rumor was to ensure Shepard was not listened to when he/she went the counsil? I mean really, seriously?

I am not blind. I didn't mean to offend you, sorry. I actually plainly see that for all their faults, it is Shepard saved the Universe, as we know it, in ME1, and it is TIM that saved it in ME2. Was it his brilliant idea to revive Shepard, I do not know, but it outweights all those 12 marines, compromized school security and all the other kindergarten nonsense that Cerberus was doing previously. Even Shepard understands that! Yet, many people close their eyes for the big picture and live in terms of small crimes and punishments as if nothing is going on, the Council is holy and protects us all, while the Council does nothing but creating troubles all the freaking time. If not for TIM and Shepard, we would have a Universe populated by indoctrinated and husks already. He, actually, is saving even the council. Not bad for a terrorist organization.

you would have a great point as I am pragmatic enough to believe that 'organizations" like Cerberus are needed by any nation state that wants to be a major player. of coarse you need someone to perforem "wetwork" where needed.

The part where I really have a problem is that there is absolutely no check and balance to hold TIM accountable. power without accountability ALWAYS leads to a bad end. Every other wetwork organization in the galaxy is accountable to a government. Spectres report to the council, STG reports to the Salarian govt, Asari commando's report to the asari government. Until Cerberus reports to someone that is accountable to the people they claim to serve to keep them in check they will in my mind be a form of evil because without accountablity motivations cannot be assessed.

it is just too much power in the hand sof someone who does not have to explain his actions to anyone.

[nov_pl]

I noticed that renegade Shepard has got eyes like TIM only red. Does it mean that Illusive Man is actually good?

[glitter_guld]

Xandurpein wrote...

Blow up the Collector base and TIM will angrily tell you "Cerberus IS humanity". Someone is perhaps getting a slightly skewed world view and needs to be kept away from real political power it seems to me.

Cerbereus aren't evil as such, just as a tyrant isn't necessarily evil. But Cerberus are an elitist organisation and not accountable to anyone. TIM decides what is good for humanity, whatever the rest of humanity thinks, just as the old Soviet regime, and countless other tyrants, acted in the name of the people, whom they never bothered to ask what they wanted.

Even if what happened to Jack wasn't sanctioned by TIM, that is precisely the type of things that happens in an organization where there is no accountability to some outside body.

The fact that Cerberus did the right thing in reviving Shepard just proves that you can do the right thing for the wrong reasons.

Please abstain from comparing Cerberus with former or current regimes and governments from real life. It looks bizarre. Cerberus is fine as it is without putting irrelevant RL cliche and labels on it. Cerberus is not NATO, EU, Soviet Union, China, the US or anything of that sort, and it doesn't behave like one.

That Cerberus is not accountable to Udina and the moronic Council, does not mean that it is not accountable to anyone. The board of company donors is as good governing body as any with their interests and brains. TIM does not make money from the air, unless he prints them sitting in his office. I suspect that TIM is not an emperor but must work hard to keep "unlimited" funds coming in.

[Peer of the Empire]

The conquest of the galaxy for humanity is a most noble and worthy goal