653 réponses à ce sujet

[GenericPlayer2]

It seems like most Cerberus supporters discount their detractors as ME1 fanboi's. The fact is, there is nothing in ME2 that makes you think they are any more trustworthy.



TIM rebuilds you, yes because all his super-soldier experiments failed. Rachni/Creepers/Husks as expendable shock troops? Pleeease it would have been cheaper and more practical to hire a Krogan mercenary outfit and they would have been superior in every way!



TIM plants information in Alliance intel with the express purpose of steering the Collectors towards Horizon and souring your former team mate against you. This is why he asks if past relationships have been put behind you, he wants to isolate you.



TIM puts you in a Collector trap. He could not even tell you - be careful on that ship it may be a trap? He says he couldn't risk the collectors finding out, but that is pretty weak, you head over there pretty much as soon as he tells you!



All he does is say that he is putting humanity first all the while he is lying and manipulating you. While the council is reluctant to believe you, when you were a SPECTRE they shared all the intel they had. They didn't say "there is something interesting going on in Virmire, please check it out". No they tell you that an STG team was investigating and they lost contact, they level with you. TIM and Cerberus NEVER level with you about whats going on, except to say 'its for humanity'. I am sorry but throwing slogans out there does not make me feel any better.

[Xandurpein]

glitter_guld wrote...

Please abstain from comparing Cerberus with former or current regimes and governments from real life. It looks bizarre. Cerberus is fine as it is without putting irrelevant RL cliche and labels on it. Cerberus is not NATO, EU, Soviet Union, China, the US or anything of that sort, and it doesn't behave like one.

Whenever I find an analogy apt I use it, whether from real life or fiction. Feel free to complain if you find a particular analogy wrong, but otherwise the simple answer is. No I won't.

glitter_guld wrote...

That Cerberus is not accountable to Udina and the moronic Council, does not mean that it is not accountable to anyone. The board of company donors is as good governing body as any with their interests and brains. TIM does not make money from the air, unless he prints them sitting in his office. I suspect that TIM is not an emperor but must work hard to keep "unlimited" funds coming in.

A board of directors is not a democracy. It may transform a tyranny to an Oligarchy, but that is not a great improvement in the greater scheme of things. Cerberus is acting like a parallell government, claiming to speak for all humanity without any mandate at all to do so. No reasonable government would ever accept an organization like Cerberus operating, unless they where already deeply integrated with them and effectivly part of the establishment, which Cerberus isn't.

The argument that the elected politicians are selfish and an enlightened self-elected group of individuals can save the country/planet/galaxy isn't a new one. Tyranny have started like that before. True accountability isn't about a board of directors. It's about accountability to those Cerberus claim to represent - humanity as a whole.

[glitter_guld]

Peer of the Empire wrote...

The conquest of the galaxy for humanity is a most noble and worthy goal

LMAO. I was waiting this for 8 fracking pages.

[glitter_guld]

Xandurpein wrote...

...

A board of directors is not a democracy. It may transform a tyranny to an Oligarchy, but that is not a great improvement in the greater scheme of things. Cerberus is acting like a parallell government, claiming to speak for all humanity without any mandate at all to do so. No reasonable government would ever accept an organization like Cerberus operating, unless they where already deeply integrated with them and effectivly part of the establishment, which Cerberus isn't.

The argument that the elected politicians are selfish and an enlightened self-elected group of individuals can save the country/planet/galaxy isn't a new one. Tyranny have started like that before. True accountability isn't about a board of directors. It's about accountability to those Cerberus claim to represent - humanity as a whole.

So, Cerberus is not a democracy??? Damn...

[GenericPlayer2]

Maybe the Alliance is not doing anything about the Collectors because of lack of intel? Who is responsible for the Intelligence Blackout? I wonder...

On Horizon I told TIM to notify the Alliance, he says not until I get there first. You guys wonder why the Alliance is not doing anything about the Collectors? Its because TIM's people are on the ground first, collect all the intel, and then do not share. They probably go as far to plant false stories and obfuscate. TIM says he planted the information that Cerberus was behind the abductions and that Shep works for them. I saw the alliance reaction and concern after Eden Prime, it is clear they care about the colonies. The retaliatory strike to the Skylian Blitz was crushing, again it is clear they care about the colonies. The problem here is that TIM's contacts is flooding them with false information.

Cerberus wants that Collector tech, and they have the perfect way to motivate you: The reapers are involved.

Modifié par GenericPlayer2, 26 février 2010 - 01:04 .

[Xandurpein]

glitter_guld wrote...

Xandurpein wrote...

...

A board of directors is not a democracy. It may transform a tyranny to an Oligarchy, but that is not a great improvement in the greater scheme of things. Cerberus is acting like a parallell government, claiming to speak for all humanity without any mandate at all to do so. No reasonable government would ever accept an organization like Cerberus operating, unless they where already deeply integrated with them and effectivly part of the establishment, which Cerberus isn't.

The argument that the elected politicians are selfish and an enlightened self-elected group of individuals can save the country/planet/galaxy isn't a new one. Tyranny have started like that before. True accountability isn't about a board of directors. It's about accountability to those Cerberus claim to represent - humanity as a whole.

So, Cerberus is not a democracy??? Damn...

Well... that a group with political ambitions and claim the right to represent all humanity, keep their own armed forces, jurisdiction and covert operations isn't accountable to a democratic institution IS something of a problem to me. I am sort of enamoured to the whole democratic goverment thing. And if you read carefully I never said Cerberus should be a democracy. I said it should be accountable to a democratically elected body - there is a difference you know.

I can understand that it's no problem to you if you feel differently about goverment though.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 26 février 2010 - 01:04 .

[jklinders]

Xandurpein wrote...

glitter_guld wrote...

Please abstain from comparing Cerberus with former or current regimes and governments from real life. It looks bizarre. Cerberus is fine as it is without putting irrelevant RL cliche and labels on it. Cerberus is not NATO, EU, Soviet Union, China, the US or anything of that sort, and it doesn't behave like one.

Whenever I find an analogy apt I use it, whether from real life or fiction. Feel free to complain if you find a particular analogy wrong, but otherwise the simple answer is. No I won't.

glitter_guld wrote...

That Cerberus is not accountable to Udina and the moronic Council, does not mean that it is not accountable to anyone. The board of company donors is as good governing body as any with their interests and brains. TIM does not make money from the air, unless he prints them sitting in his office. I suspect that TIM is not an emperor but must work hard to keep "unlimited" funds coming in.

A board of directors is not a democracy. It may transform a tyranny to an Oligarchy, but that is not a great improvement in the greater scheme of things. Cerberus is acting like a parallell government, claiming to speak for all humanity without any mandate at all to do so. No reasonable government would ever accept an organization like Cerberus operating, unless they where already deeply integrated with them and effectivly part of the establishment, which Cerberus isn't.

The argument that the elected politicians are selfish and an enlightened self-elected group of individuals can save the country/planet/galaxy isn't a new one. Tyranny have started like that before. True accountability isn't about a board of directors. It's about accountability to those Cerberus claim to represent - humanity as a whole.

*Applauds*
Far better said than I could.

[Asheer_Khan]

Blind people will remain blind no matter what arguments will be posted to show true nature of Cerberus and his wanabeEmperor Timmy...



Please recall First Contact war.



She start because humanity chose to permanent ignore Council warnings to NOT OPEN dormant Mass Relay forcing Turians to attack Shanxi.

To reclaim Shanxi Alliance drop almost entire fleet when Turians have there only small squadron when rest of thier much powerful than Alliance fleet were underway and it was COUNCIL who step in and literaly FORCED both sides to sign armistance.

Without that intervention propably right now (during Sovieregin appearance) Earth would be a Turian colony.



So imagine that there is no Council after Sovieregin attack and humanity lead by Cerberus somehow will defeat reapers but then start to take control over every valuable part of the remaining galaxy...

I am pretty sure that Turians, Asari and Salarians (not to mention non Council races) would not sit and watch how from ashes of reapers invasion arise Human Empire but they will throw all remaining forces to stop humans once for all... but this time there will be nobody who will in crucial moment say STOP WHIT THIS MADNESS!

And tell me, how long Earth will stand against such combined forces?

Humanity so far have very few really valuable colonies and in case of war they will be attack in first place to isolate Earth from possible colonial reinforcements when Council races have pretty huge territory and they might loose one or two valuable colonies without serious damaging of thier war effort.



But that's renegade optimistic worst case scenario, pesymistic will be when Timmy in order to "save" humanity will sign deal whit reapers to let them wipe out all council and non council races and he will be granted by the reapers total control over indoctrinated human slaves...



But that's are just my wild speculations because somehow i doubt that Bioware will create such true Dark Side end for Mass Effect renegades but who known...

[Madecologist]

Asheer_Khan wrote...

Blind people will remain blind no matter what arguments will be posted to show true nature of Cerberus and his wanabeEmperor Timmy...

Please recall First Contact war.

She start because humanity chose to permanent ignore Council warnings to NOT OPEN dormant Mass Relay forcing Turians to attack Shanxi.

...snip...

There is one little mistake here, humanity had no contact with the council. We did not know about interstellar laws, heck we did not know about aliens except for the remains of Prothean Technology, so we knew we were not alone but we did not know who else was out there, how they looked, and what they were about.

The Turians are the ultimate "ignorance is no excuse" and so they went all out on us. Asari intervened because they realised we were a first contact race that the whole first contact botched. So they stepped in as mediators to end the war.

We honestly did not know, we did not even know there was a Council. So it is not like we chose to ignore any warnings.

[glitter_guld]

Anyone thought that maybe TIM does not want to "govern" humanity or any other races. It is enough for him if humanity is sufficiently developed and plays major role in interstellar relationships?He doesn't want to be a tyrant or a president. Udina can very well be both. I have not seen in him personal feelings of grandeur.

[jklinders]

Madecologist wrote...

Asheer_Khan wrote...

Blind people will remain blind no matter what arguments will be posted to show true nature of Cerberus and his wanabeEmperor Timmy...

Please recall First Contact war.

She start because humanity chose to permanent ignore Council warnings to NOT OPEN dormant Mass Relay forcing Turians to attack Shanxi.

...snip...

There is one little mistake here, humanity had no contact with the council. We did not know about interstellar laws, heck we did not know about aliens except for the remains of Prothean Technology, so we knew we were not alone but we did not know who else was out there, how they looked, and what they were about.

The Turians are the ultimate "ignorance is no excuse" and so they went all out on us. Asari intervened because they realised we were a first contact race that the whole first contact botched. So they stepped in as mediators to end the war.

We honestly did not know, we did not even know there was a Council. So it is not like we chose to ignore any warnings.

ya, it is pretty clear that the council did not approve of the Turian's "police action" as they so quaintly called it. Reparations were ordered by the council after all. Not to mention at the time no one knew how powerful the alliance was. Turians likely would have crushed the Alliance, but no one in the council knew how big a stick the Alliance swung. Brokering a peace just made sense.

[Xandurpein]

glitter_guld wrote...

Anyone thought that maybe TIM does not want to "govern" humanity or any other races. It is enough for him if humanity is sufficiently developed and plays major role in interstellar relationships?He doesn't want to be a tyrant or a president. Udina can very well be both. I have not seen in him personal feelings of grandeur.

Blow up the Collector base and TIM will angrily tell Shepard "Cerberus IS humanity!". I tend to think of it as a touch of delusions of grandeur really...

[Urazz]

Asheer_Khan wrote...

Blind people will remain blind no matter what arguments will be posted to show true nature of Cerberus and his wanabeEmperor Timmy...

Please recall First Contact war.

She start because humanity chose to permanent ignore Council warnings to NOT OPEN dormant Mass Relay forcing Turians to attack Shanxi.

Umm..Humanity didn't meet the council until after the first contact war so they didn't have any warnings from the council.

[AntiChri5]

glitter_guld wrote...

Anyone thought that maybe TIM does not want to "govern" humanity or any other races. It is enough for him if humanity is sufficiently developed and plays major role in interstellar relationships?He doesn't want to be a tyrant or a president. Udina can very well be both. I have not seen in him personal feelings of grandeur.

"Cerberus IS humanity!"

And who is Cerberus?

the Illusive man.

Have you read the beginning of Ascension?

[Asheer_Khan]

glitter_guld wrote...

Anyone thought that maybe TIM does not want to "govern" humanity or any other races. It is enough for him if humanity is sufficiently developed and plays major role in interstellar relationships?He doesn't want to be a tyrant or a president. Udina can very well be both. I have not seen in him personal feelings of grandeur.

*Siiiiigh...*
Do you seriously believed in what you posted??

:devil:ALL what Timmy want IS ULTIMATE AND ABSOLUTE POWER over humanity and the galaxy... :devil:

I seriously don't known what elese could be sayin here to enlighted some people so i think now it's up to Bioware to become ultimative judge in case Pro-Cerberus vs Anti-Cerberus...


EDIT: I think i  need to read codex about First Conatct war more closer

Modifié par Asheer_Khan, 26 février 2010 - 01:31 .

[Madecologist]

ExtremeOne wrote...

Once again the Mass Effect 1 fans are going to worship the ground that game walks on not even try to understand that Cerberus is different in ME 2

Okay that is the most ridiculous arguement I ever heard. There is only 2 years between the two Mass Effects. Cerberus does a magical 180 in 2 years? Get real. This is not just about ME1. The novel that was already released, and the novel that will be released also support this fact. So please, claiming that those that do not trust Cerberus are ME1 fanaticism is just an outright insult.

So did Cerberus change in two years, or are they pulling a smokescreen over us. Thinking the later is not ME1 worship but an opinion. Seriously, are saying that Bioware pulled a retcon? No really, that established lore is not maintained and they change things on the whim? IF Cerberus changed then there is a reason why, or perhaps they didn't and we are being fooled. Hence the debate. Keep your self absorbed pretentious observations to yourself. If you want to argue that Cerberus is not evil anymore, do so with the facts present in the game and not with slander claiming the other side is just worship for the first game.

Modifié par Madecologist, 26 février 2010 - 01:32 .

[glitter_guld]

Xandurpein wrote...

glitter_guld wrote...

Anyone thought that maybe TIM does not want to "govern" humanity or any other races. It is enough for him if humanity is sufficiently developed and plays major role in interstellar relationships?He doesn't want to be a tyrant or a president. Udina can very well be both. I have not seen in him personal feelings of grandeur.

Blow up the Collector base and TIM will angrily tell Shepard "Cerberus IS humanity!". I tend to think of it as a touch of delusions of grandeur really...

That is not. I would tell things much stronger. By blowing that base Shepard just joined the ranks of the stupid Council, delayed the victory over the Reapers and signed the death warrant to God knows how many else human and non-human civilians. What a stupid thing to do.

[jklinders]

glitter_guld wrote...

Anyone thought that maybe TIM does not want to "govern" humanity or any other races. It is enough for him if humanity is sufficiently developed and plays major role in interstellar relationships?He doesn't want to be a tyrant or a president. Udina can very well be both. I have not seen in him personal feelings of grandeur.

A possibility, but not likely. From his dialogue he clearly thinks he knows best. it is only a short step from that to setting yourself up as emperor. I won't argue that he may started with good intentions, but the path he wants to walk is pretty clear.

Dominance for humanity against the reapers and beyond. It sounds like to me in the aftermath of the reaper invasion he wants to set up another interstellar civil war over who will be in charge. that's an awful lot of death to have on order. With no certain outcome.

Anyway in keeping woith Bioware's approach to continuity I sincerely doubt the collector base will be relevant to stopping the reapers in ME3. Direct action against a numerically superior foe with equal or lesser tech will end in failure. Another path is needed.

[glitter_guld]

Asheer_Khan wrote...

...

:devil:ALL what Timmy want IS ULTIMATE AND ABSOLUTE POWER over humanity and the galaxy... :devil:

...

Did he tell you that himself? Or, the more times you repeat the phrase, the more believable it becomes?

[glitter_guld]

AntiChri5 wrote...

glitter_guld wrote...

Anyone thought that maybe TIM does not want to "govern" humanity or any other races. It is enough for him if humanity is sufficiently developed and plays major role in interstellar relationships?He doesn't want to be a tyrant or a president. Udina can very well be both. I have not seen in him personal feelings of grandeur.

"Cerberus IS humanity!"

And who is Cerberus?

the Illusive man.

Have you read the beginning of Ascension?

There is no need to refer to personalities. If you have a statement to make, please describe what you have read in the beginning of Ascention.

[Asheer_Khan]

glitter_guld wrote...

Asheer_Khan wrote...

...

:devil:ALL what Timmy want IS ULTIMATE AND ABSOLUTE POWER over humanity and the galaxy... :devil:

...

Did he tell you that himself? Or, the more times you repeat the phrase, the more believable it becomes?

No, i just live in the country which suffers great damages when one delusioned sicko on the west start spread his "Lenebsraum" ideology and was later on replaced by another sicko from the east and his Socialistic paradise ideology so i learn to read between words and that's why Timmy fail to cover his true intention before me.

[jklinders]

Asheer_Khan wrote...

glitter_guld wrote...

Asheer_Khan wrote...

...

:devil:ALL what Timmy want IS ULTIMATE AND ABSOLUTE POWER over humanity and the galaxy... :devil:

...

Did he tell you that himself? Or, the more times you repeat the phrase, the more believable it becomes?

No, i just live in the country which suffers great damages when one delusioned sicko on the west start spread his "Lenebsraum" ideology and was later on replaced by another sicko from the east and his Socialistic paradise ideology so i learn to read between words and that's why Timmy fail to cover his true intention before me.

May i ask where you live?

[glitter_guld]

jklinders wrote...

glitter_guld wrote...

Anyone thought that maybe TIM does not want to "govern" humanity or any other races. It is enough for him if humanity is sufficiently developed and plays major role in interstellar relationships?He doesn't want to be a tyrant or a president. Udina can very well be both. I have not seen in him personal feelings of grandeur.

A possibility, but not likely. From his dialogue he clearly thinks he knows best. it is only a short step from that to setting yourself up as emperor. I won't argue that he may started with good intentions, but the path he wants to walk is pretty clear.

Dominance for humanity against the reapers and beyond. It sounds like to me in the aftermath of the reaper invasion he wants to set up another interstellar civil war over who will be in charge. that's an awful lot of death to have on order. With no certain outcome.

Anyway in keeping woith Bioware's approach to continuity I sincerely doubt the collector base will be relevant to stopping the reapers in ME3. Direct action against a numerically superior foe with equal or lesser tech will end in failure. Another path is needed.

You are right that the collector's base is nothing, of course. He had enough technology from the Sovereigh himself. The base would just speed up things and deal with the indoctrinated protean remnants once and for all.

Modifié par glitter_guld, 26 février 2010 - 01:45 .

[AntiChri5]

glitter_guld wrote...

AntiChri5 wrote...

glitter_guld wrote...

Anyone thought that maybe TIM does not want to "govern" humanity or any other races. It is enough for him if humanity is sufficiently developed and plays major role in interstellar relationships?He doesn't want to be a tyrant or a president. Udina can very well be both. I have not seen in him personal feelings of grandeur.

"Cerberus IS humanity!"

And who is Cerberus?

the Illusive man.

Have you read the beginning of Ascension?

There is no need to refer to personalities. If you have a statement to make, please describe what you have read in the beginning of Ascention.

What do you mean refer to personalities? You cant claim to know whether Cerberus is evil without reading Ascension. It would be like saying the reapers arent evil without playing ME 1.

[Asheer_Khan]

jklinders wrote...

Asheer_Khan wrote...

glitter_guld wrote...

Asheer_Khan wrote...

...

:devil:ALL what Timmy want IS ULTIMATE AND ABSOLUTE POWER over humanity and the galaxy... :devil:

...

Did he tell you that himself? Or, the more times you repeat the phrase, the more believable it becomes?

No, i just live in the country which suffers great damages when one delusioned sicko on the west start spread his "Lenebsraum" ideology and was later on replaced by another sicko from the east and his Socialistic paradise ideology so i learn to read between words and that's why Timmy fail to cover his true intention before me.

May i ask where you live?

Poland, right between Germany and Russia.