91 réponses à ce sujet

[marshalleck]

Darht Jayder wrote...

Gage1990 wrote...

Darht Jayder wrote...

Gage1990 wrote...

Darht Jayder wrote...

NuclearBuddha wrote...

Maybe she's just more open-minded than you think.

Impossible.  she says she would never put the flotilla in danger, yet that is exactly what she does by working with Legion.  Doesn't make sense. 

I dont see how working with a geth puts the flotilla in danger

He gets caught scanning her omnitool and tries to send the info to the Geth.

I always stop him, is there a way not to

Yes you can stop him.  But the threat is still there.  Like I said 300 years of war and mistrust isn't eradicated because Shepard says "stop it you two".

This is more an issue of writing than characters. Shepard's miraculous ability to mind-control people into making huge, life-altering decisions has always been a bit suspect.

Modifié par marshalleck, 25 février 2010 - 06:35 .

[The Angry One]

Darht Jayder wrote...

So they are an invincible force?  Thanks for clearing that up.

Yes because "no particular inherent weakness" = invincible.

[SuperZombieChow]

There should have been more interactions between the two, but the way I see it, Tali's loyalty mission shows her that the conflict with the geth is not as black and white as she thought it was. Her father, one of the "good guys", was effectively doing the same thing she condemned Cerberus for doing in the first game. Even while she defends the Quarian anti-geth mentality during her mission you can see her indecision, that she only half believes what she is saying.



I totally agree that she shouldn't have just forgotten about Shepard being a jerk to her in the first game, though. She and Garrus ought to both remember how they were treated in the first game.

[marshalleck]

Darht Jayder wrote...

Yes but the characters are defined by the writing since they are fictional.  You can't exclude one from the other.

See my edit. Characters are molded by gameplay mechanics to some degree, which is separate. You don't see Shepard walk up to someone and say "I have 100% Paragon. Stop perpetrating that crime and go join a convent!" He simply presents an argument, and the character is compelled to follow it.

It's unrealistic yes, but not because of inherent character traits.

Modifié par marshalleck, 25 février 2010 - 06:40 .

[Madecologist]

Darht Jayder wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

This is more an issue of writing than characters.

Yes but the characters are defined by the writing since they are fictional.  You can't exclude one from the other.

I will repeat and elaborate:

The problem here is not that Tali is showing blind faith to Shepard. It is that Tali is showing blind faith to -your- Shepard. To which I agree. She shouldn't. Doesn't change the fact it does make sense in other people's game. Her character makes sense in some playthrough of ME2. It doesn't in yours. This is not a flaw in the character's writing, nor with the writing itself. It is a flaw with the game design of placing this Tali on everyone (and the lack of alternative writing for her).

So your complaint should not be about Tali's behaviour itself. But that they did not give her an alternative personality reaction for your outcome of ME1.

Modifié par Madecologist, 25 février 2010 - 06:46 .

[Jeremy Winston]

SuperZombieChow wrote...

There should have been more interactions between the two, but the way I see it, Tali's loyalty mission shows her that the conflict with the geth is not as black and white as she thought it was. Her father, one of the "good guys", was effectively doing the same thing she condemned Cerberus for doing in the first game. Even while she defends the Quarian anti-geth mentality during her mission you can see her indecision, that she only half believes what she is saying.

I totally agree that she shouldn't have just forgotten about Shepard being a jerk to her in the first game, though. She and Garrus ought to both remember how they were treated in the first game.

Garrus does remember.  Sort of.  He's still soft of Shepard, but his general demeanor and how he approaches things derives directly for how you treated him in the first game.

[Beerfish]

The Angry One wrote...

Legion is perfectly within his rights to obtain and send data to his people concerning a potential invasion.
The Quarians are the ones being hostile here, Legion has a right and a duty to do what he does, to say otherwise is bias.

Darht Jayder wrote...

How is sending small parts that could theoretically be reactivated into geth be treason, but actively working alongside a geth who has already once tried to send info about the Quarians that could possibly destroy their entire race not treason by Quarian standards?

Because she's being ordered to by her commanding officer. Executive responsibility lies with Shepard, and since Shep isn't a Quarian.. tough!

No, not really within the context of the game.

Evening having a Geth on board  (A race you battled all through ME1 and caused you endless grief.) is stretching it.  It's tough to believe that a prudent Shepard is going to welcome Legio with open arms and a clean slate just upon Legions story of Heretics with no tangible proof.  An incredibly short time after he is activated and basically promising to be good he is caught scanning Talis omni tool.  The Geth booted the quarians from their homeworld and essentially tried to wipe them out.

Now you can argue that it would be reasonable for Legion to try and do this considering what might happen to the Geth but in almost all instances Legions activty of espionage 2 seconds after he gets on board and his further declaration that as soon as the mission is over he is going to send it anyway should have made him into a pile of molten metal.

[tropicalwave]

Putting aside the fact that if you were mean to Tali in the first game (can't change the programming). Legion is an anomaly as far as anyone is concerned. A Geth that speaks, is wearing N7 armor and possibly saved Shep and the team's life. Anyone who isn't fully blind with hatred (which Tali isn't based on my play through of both games) would want to know more. Working with someone (again she is working on a Cerberus vessel with the blessing of the admiralty) that is enemies witht he floatila obviously isn't seen as treasonous.



I haven't tried but apparently you can bring Legion along for Tali's loyalty mission, if this is true then that is a bigger issue for me. I never tried becuase I couldn't stand the idea of playing the game with the silent Normandy.



She is willing working with Cerberus, the Blue Suns, an escaped criminal, possibly a sociopath, an assassin, and possibly the worse kind of hero possible and you think Legioin is the problem? Hell technically working with any race outside of the Quarian's could possible be treasonous since none are allies and treat them like theiving gypsies.



I had no issue with Tali accepting my decision to have Legion on the team. Though I was disappointed that I couldn't talk to her before activating him, having her along when I did and having her able to voice her opion when dealing with him and the heretics. But alas this is a game limited to what programming and dialog they are able to assemble for release.



Along those lines there are a few times when you have to let go of the outcome and the programming of the game. Like my Shepard would have killed Zaeed out right on his loyalty mission right after he caused the plant to go up in flames.

[Xandurpein]

You act is if there is no character development at all. Personally I wouldn't be surprised if Tali's blind loyalty to the Flotilla didn't get a massive dent at her loyalty quest. Tali's loyalty quest, at least the paragon one, basically tells Tali that the only person who is on her side is Shepard. The admirals and the fleet just tries to exile her for power politics.

[StreetlightEagle]

I'd love to see where the whole Quarian/ Geth relations go in ME3... I hope me getting Tali to take a rocket to the face doesn't hinder that in any way. There is no chance of me dragging her into the next game.

[Madecologist]

Darht Jayder wrote...

Agreed that my shepard definitely doesn't jive with the writing of her character.  However in the broader sense (with the exception of my shepard), I can sort of accept that she is so unquestionably loyal to shepard that she would do this however, I don't think the admiralty board as a whole would accept it and given her general dislike of the Geth and her persistence during her loyalty quest that she wouldn't ever put the flotilla in danger still doesn't compute with me really that she would accept this.

She still joining Shepard and willing to put up with Legion does make sense in the "Loyal" Tali from a kind or neutral Shepard from ME1. I still stand by my comment she is the type to form a strong bond of trust and loyalty, which Shepard gets.

What I did find absurd is letting Legion come onboard the Flotilla and only have Shepard's "mysterious godlike powers" convince people. Personally if that were to happen, Tali would demand that Shepard keep Legion locked up on the Normandy while they go to the Flotilla and have that point none negotiable. This was never a problem with me because I never bring Legion along. Seems to be the logical thing to do. So there I agree, that is a little too much (fun to do for giggles though).

Modifié par Madecologist, 25 février 2010 - 06:57 .

[CajunRexShepard]

Aside from my points in my first post in this thread, I'll weigh in on why a prudent shepard would choose to activate Legion... Hell, the guy saves your life and demonstrates the ability to speak... not to mention he is wearing a piece of N7 armor... that alone is enough to at least allow it the chance to explain itself. If Legion wanted you dead, he could have shot you himself... or not pulled the trigger on the husks that are flanking you, even. Clearly he was of a different sort than the stuttering killbots you saw in the first game, and he explains that much to you as well...



From Tali's side... I don't see why that is so hard to swallow either. You are her friend, her savior, her captain, and possibly even more if you take that path, and it's YOUR SHIP. True, she can leave, but her loyalty to you and to be true to her word to help overrides her suspicions and prejudice of the geth... I'd like to believe her curiosity does as well (remember her convo about 'nobody's ever recovered a full active geth before!') and the argument stems more from conditioned mistrust between the two than any realized hatred.

[tropicalwave]

Oh and on another note as far as Geth culture goes scanning Tali's omni tool wouldn't seem out of the ordinary for the Geth. Hell it might have even happened Legion even really thinking about it. Then if you were Legion and found out what the Quarian's were doing what would you do? They are a collective and he couldn't see not sharing the information no matter what. I think people are acting like he is trying to betray the team, etc. This is just normal for the Geth.



At some point the information will end up with the Geth. But I never get the impression that the Geth hate their Creators. They never seem to want to take out the Quarian's after they left. They havien't done anything aggressive before Sovreign and we find out they are a splinter group. There is a faction of Quarian's that agree with the decision to work the Geth.



Besides it is a loyalty point and if you don't ahve the abilty to be paragon/renegade then you have to choose sides. To bad you can't kick off anyone that isn't loyal to you. You chose Tali and kill Legion or you send Tali back to the floatila. Then again that drops back to the limitations of it being a game.

[Geth Knight]

Darht Jayder wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Darht Jayder wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Darht Jayder wrote...

He gets caught scanning her omnitool and tries to send the info to the Geth.

That only puts the flotilla in danger if they decide to attack the Geth which is likely going to get them all killed either way.

Puts the flotilla in danger because the Geth could use the info to design weapons or find weaknesses to exploit if they decided to attack the flotilla and get rid of their enemy.

The flotilla is made up of ancient ships and garbage scows that is only formidable due to sheer numbers.
There's no weakness to  be found.

So they are an invincible force?  Thanks for clearing that up.

No what was said was that their ships are crap. There is no weakness to be found because their only advantage is the number of ships they have. Hell, a volus with a baseball bat could take down a quarian in hand to hand combat.

[NuclearBuddha]

Darht Jayder wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Darht Jayder wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Darht Jayder wrote...

He gets caught scanning her omnitool and tries to send the info to the Geth.

That only puts the flotilla in danger if they decide to attack the Geth which is likely going to get them all killed either way.

Puts the flotilla in danger because the Geth could use the info to design weapons or find weaknesses to exploit if they decided to attack the flotilla and get rid of their enemy.

The flotilla is made up of ancient ships and garbage scows that is only formidable due to sheer numbers.
There's no weakness to  be found.

So they are an invincible force?  Thanks for clearing that up.

I think they're saying that any weakness is not exactly a big secret.

[ian528]

As some have suggested Tali is most loyal to Shepard. At the end of her loyalty mission, you have basically ended her relationship with the migrant fleet. Just because they did not necessarily exile her does not mean she won't exile herself. Tali sees her father as being a great man and can not let his memory be tarnished by his experiment with the Geth.

Since the first game you have heard how Tali thinks Geth want to destroy organics and how they will only be happy with synthetic life. Legion rebukes this assumption. That more then anything may give Tali pause. She is filled with the hate of the Geth and feels they have robbed her homeworld but this is not the burning hatred of someone who saw their entire family driven off the homeworld and killed. Tali is one of the smartest characters in ME. She can see Legion as being different then anything she has seen before. If he is what the Geth are becoming then perhaps there is a chance for peace.

On Legion's side it is pure logic.There is no direct quarrel with Tali. Quarians as an attacking political body there is an issue with.

All this being said, if you have read the books, Tali should have a much bigger problem with Cerberus. They have most recently destabilized the migrant fleet. Willing to follow Shepard when he is with Cerberus is a much bigger deal I believe.