98 réponses à ce sujet

[Vuokseniska]

Well i did the endings with Bhelen +Branka and Harrowmont + Branka

I have to say that bhelen is less evil than Harrowmont

Harrowmont  slaughters the castless and stops trade with teh top side. Secures more power to the nobles and with branka on the side, brings elves and humans to her to make them golems. A war start with ferelden because of this. Though that eventually ends, The dwarves still hold topside raides to manufacture golems.

With with Bhelen, He might be a dictator and destroys the establishment. He sees Branka as a threat and tries to destroy her though never fully able to do so.

I have to say if you want to be good, I would fully support Bhelen. Because Harrowmont clearly isn't a good guy. Though bhelen took the throne dubious, it is a legitimate way of doing politics in Dwarven culture.

Though if you side with caradin, Bhelen becomes a dictator though the city thrives while horrowmont slowly withers away without accomplishing anything.

all in all  Harrowmont is far worse for dwarven kind than Bhelen

[guytza]

Yep.



Its a nice switch that the guy who is allegedly the one the former king picked for his successor (I dont know if anyone substantiates the claim) and plays the part of the 'good' choice by not asking you to make underhanded dealings is the one who plays you the most false.



Seems to me that Dwarven politics is primarily a chess game of backstabbing. All the nobles play the game including Bhelen and Harrowmont, Bhelen is just more honest by not trying to fool the warden while Harrowmont plays the warden knowing that an outsider couldnt possibly grasp all the intrigue in a short time.



Harrowmont represents the status quo which, since the loss of the golems, has resulted in the dwarves slow decline towards being wiped out by the darkspawn.



The concept of Bhelen taking full leadership and dissolving the Deshyrs isnt really a bad thing either. Ask anyone in Orzammar not in the noble caste and they all look at the assembly as useless. Bhelen gets rid of them all to cease the infighting that was going to get them all killed and concentrate on fighting back the darkspawn and rebuilding the once lost deep roads.



As for Branka, she's nutty as a fruit bat.... but she isnt wrong. The Dwarves need the Anvil to survive and fight the Darkspawn. Perhaps we cant agree with the methods she used, but the ideal is absolutely accurate.

[maxernst]

Harrowmont is far worse as a ruler, but that doesn't mean he's evil. He's simply a traditionalist and a weak ruler. If you side with Branka, really the evil is your fault because you ought to know that Paragons wield enormous power in Dwarven society--enough to choose a king. Harrowmont is not more evil than Bhelen, he's just weaker,

[Vicious]

Seeing as how Harrowmont allows his people to raid the surface and kidnap Humans and Elves to create more Golems... yeah... sorry... he's definetly an evil bastard.

[Vuokseniska]

well i expected that harrowmont also didn't side with branka in the end. I just didn't expected to be him so traditional. But my mission is accomplished because i wanted to be evil and that sure is evil. next to destroying redcliff village and letting the desire deamon take connor and of course side with the werewolves

[bzombo]

guytza wrote...

Yep.

Its a nice switch that the guy who is allegedly the one the former king picked for his successor (I dont know if anyone substantiates the claim) and plays the part of the 'good' choice by not asking you to make underhanded dealings is the one who plays you the most false.

Seems to me that Dwarven politics is primarily a chess game of backstabbing. All the nobles play the game including Bhelen and Harrowmont, Bhelen is just more honest by not trying to fool the warden while Harrowmont plays the warden knowing that an outsider couldnt possibly grasp all the intrigue in a short time.

Harrowmont represents the status quo which, since the loss of the golems, has resulted in the dwarves slow decline towards being wiped out by the darkspawn.

The concept of Bhelen taking full leadership and dissolving the Deshyrs isnt really a bad thing either. Ask anyone in Orzammar not in the noble caste and they all look at the assembly as useless. Bhelen gets rid of them all to cease the infighting that was going to get them all killed and concentrate on fighting back the darkspawn and rebuilding the once lost deep roads.

As for Branka, she's nutty as a fruit bat.... but she isnt wrong. The Dwarves need the Anvil to survive and fight the Darkspawn. Perhaps we cant agree with the methods she used, but the ideal is absolutely accurate.

they're both rotten. bhelen is just less rotten. bhelen executes harrowmont. that seems pretty bad to me. plus the documents you're given are forged, i think. i almost tried going with harrowmont, but after getting a few hints of harrowmont's ways i felt bhelen the lesser of two evils. i have so far chosen to not do the harrowmont quest just because of his more tyrannical ways. i didn't even know about some of the consequences of going with harrowmont and now i'm even happier i haven't yet. bhelen is still  a scumbag too, though.

[PsychoBlonde]

I think the whole dwarven situation would have benefited from a difficult-to-orchestrate third option unless Bioware was really trying to make some sort of point about how bad politics will result in bad outcomes no matter what you do.

[guytza]

Evil is a very subjective term, but the usage of the Anvil shows the quality of the person using it.

The Anvil has two possible usages.

1. The Anvil is fed volunteers.

2. The Anvil is fed unwilling participants.



Bhelen chooses 1.

Harrowmont chooses 2. (which i didnt know until I read this thread hehe)



You can make your own judgements based on that.

[errant_knight]

I never get that far. I play good characters, so the task that Bhelen sets as his first one is undoable, whereas the proving is. Also, my good PC would have a very hard time siding with someone who appears to have arranged the murder of his brother. Harrowmont doesn't turn out to be a great choice, but my PC doesn't know that, and wouldn't consider Bhelen anyway. Siding with Branka is completely out of the question.

[maxernst]

If Harrowmont really chooses 2, you're correct. However, I'm not sure he really makes that choice. I haven't seen that epilogue so I don't know the details. Maybe Branka just does it, or the Assembly under her influence agrees to let her do it--remember that Harrowmont makes it clear that he plans to abide by the will of the Assembly.



I will grant that it's appears "good" of Bhelen to stop Branka, but I would guess that the reason he does has less to do with the morality of the action than the fact that he wants to encourage ties with the surface. But in any event, no PC who has listened to Caridin's story and seen what Branka did to her own family should be remotely surprised that the Anvil is fed unwilling participants.

[mousestalker]

Telling two deshyrs that they have been swindled is undoable for a good character? You and I as players know that Bhelen's papers are forgeries, but our characters do not, unless they think to have them examined.

[ejoslin]

Not only that, those papers prove that Harrowmont was engaging in bribery if nothing else. I'm not sure why that's considered "clean."

Edit: You know from the start that both are dirty.  So you have to talk to people and listen to the criers. They say an awful lot.

Modifié par ejoslin, 25 février 2010 - 07:23 .

[guytza]

bzombo wrote...

they're both rotten. bhelen is just less rotten. bhelen executes harrowmont. that seems pretty bad to me. plus the documents you're given are forged, i think. i almost tried going with harrowmont, but after getting a few hints of harrowmont's ways i felt bhelen the lesser of two evils. i have so far chosen to not do the harrowmont quest just because of his more tyrannical ways. i didn't even know about some of the consequences of going with harrowmont and now i'm even happier i haven't yet. bhelen is still  a scumbag too, though.

Ahh, but thats just it, you cant judge their actions by your own moral compass. Neither of these characters are 'rotten', they are the products of their society. This backstabbing, plotting game is acceptable behavior in the noble caste. 

Modifié par guytza, 26 février 2010 - 04:25 .

[RavenousBear]

Harrowmont does a better job at hiding his true feelings and is much better in dealing with the nobles while Bhelen is more honest of his intentions and has a bad temper. Right now on my 2nd play through as a neutral player I am about to enter the Chamber of Assembly. Through dialogue with npcs in the city, it seems so far that those who support Harrowmont give negative feelings towards Bhelen with supporters of Bhelen seem to give positive reasons to support Bhelen.

[karma_killer09]

As far as politics go i'd have to say Bhelen is a better choice for the people regardless of how crappy of a person he is, I mean even in real life our old president(for americans, sorry to everyone else im not very knowledgable of your politics) Bill Clinton was a pot head and a cheater but still one of our best presidents as far as our iconomy goes. On a side note, screw Bhelen Im a dwarf noble this time and he screwed me

[caladorne]

I went w/ Harrowmont and Caridin w/ Dalish elf. It just felt like the right choice. My dwarven noble will definitely go w/ Harrowmont and consider Branka...maybe.

[Creature 1]

ejoslin wrote...

Not only that, those papers prove that Harrowmont was engaging in bribery if nothing else. I'm not sure why that's considered "clean."

Edit: You know from the start that both are dirty.  So you have to talk to people and listen to the criers. They say an awful lot.

True, even though the documents Bhelen gives you are forged to make it look like Harrowmont's giving the same bribe to two people, the fact remains that Harrowmont was giving people bribes. 

[RavenousBear]

mousestalker wrote...

Telling two deshyrs that they have been swindled is undoable for a good character? You and I as players know that Bhelen's papers are forgeries, but our characters do not, unless they think to have them examined.

If you talk to Vartag a bit about the papers, he says not to show them to the Shaperate because the Shaperate has a very minor amount of family ancestry from Harrowmont's house. When showing the papers to the Shaperate, he will confirm that it is true but tells you it means little to him. I think the Shaperate could be lying as family ancestry plays a huge role in dwarven politics and with some of the other backwards ideas the society embraces, it would not surprise me that the Shaperate is indeed biased and will help Harrowmont in any way possible.

[errant_knight]

Creature 1 wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Not only that, those papers prove that Harrowmont was engaging in bribery if nothing else. I'm not sure why that's considered "clean."

Edit: You know from the start that both are dirty.  So you have to talk to people and listen to the criers. They say an awful lot.

True, even though the documents Bhelen gives you are forged to make it look like Harrowmont's giving the same bribe to two people, the fact remains that Harrowmont was giving people bribes. 

The whole feels sketchy on both sides, not knowing what's going on. One may be engaging in bribes, one may be blackmailing fighters. None of it sounds good. I end up basing the decision on the fact that only one of them is rumored to be a murderer--and of his own family. That doesn't sit well with a Cousland. Bhelen sounds like the same kind of guy as Howe.

[maxernst]

@Caak7--that thought occurred to me, as well, after learning how tradition-minded Harrowmont is. Unfortunately, my PC didn't take this into account and trusted the Shaperate, despite his obviously very traditional views--ask him about the Casteless! Operating with more information, probably would have chosen Bhelen.

[Herr Uhl]

maxernst wrote...

@Caak7--that thought occurred to me, as well, after learning how tradition-minded Harrowmont is. Unfortunately, my PC didn't take this into account and trusted the Shaperate, despite his obviously very traditional views--ask him about the Casteless! Operating with more information, probably would have chosen Bhelen.

I think Vartog confirms them being faked if you confront him about it after going to the shaperate.

[errant_knight]

Herr Uhl wrote...

maxernst wrote...

@Caak7--that thought occurred to me, as well, after learning how tradition-minded Harrowmont is. Unfortunately, my PC didn't take this into account and trusted the Shaperate, despite his obviously very traditional views--ask him about the Casteless! Operating with more information, probably would have chosen Bhelen.

I think Vartog confirms them being faked if you confront him about it after going to the shaperate.

I never went to the Shaperete, but Vartog said something to me that gave a clear impression that they were faked. I can't remember what it was, exactly, but that was what I took from the exchange. Again, I can't remember the exact details of the conversation, but I think I got that response on one of the playthroughs where my cunning was quite high at that point in the game.

[Elemental_805]

I think a Dwarvin noble should be able to become king and use the golems to take over all of Fereldon.

[JosieJ]

errant_knight wrote...

Creature 1 wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Not only that, those papers prove that Harrowmont was engaging in bribery if nothing else. I'm not sure why that's considered "clean."

Edit: You know from the start that both are dirty.  So you have to talk to people and listen to the criers. They say an awful lot.

True, even though the documents Bhelen gives you are forged to make it look like Harrowmont's giving the same bribe to two people, the fact remains that Harrowmont was giving people bribes. 

The whole feels sketchy on both sides, not knowing what's going on. One may be engaging in bribes, one may be blackmailing fighters. None of it sounds good. I end up basing the decision on the fact that only one of them is rumored to be a murderer--and of his own family. That doesn't sit well with a Cousland. Bhelen sounds like the same kind of guy as Howe.

Yeah, in my two Cousland playthroughs I picked Harrowmont.  Otherwise, though, all my PCs pick Bhelen because Harrowmont just seems weak.  Even my Couslands were disquieted by that, although once they had given their word, they kept it.

[Thomas9321]

I picked Harrowmont twice and will never do so again. Knowing how bad he was for the dwarves I couldn't let my characters screw over Orzammar like that. The only times I ever picked Harrowmont were my first playthrough where I didn't know better and on my Dwarven Noble where I made Harrowmont king. That however was pure revenge for Bhelen setting me up, not to mention I became a Paragon in the epilogue (much manipulation of weak Harrowmont ensued I'd like to think).