In terms of the knowledge we have of the endgame outcome of both choices, it's pretty clear that Bhelen is the better candidate. Harrowmont supports the rigid caste system and makes Orzammar wither by cutting off surface trade. Bhelen does the opposite. Apparently Harrowmont uses the golems in a more questionable manner as well. (although I wouldn't know)
That's all a bit metagamey knowledge though, in terms of what kind of choice the PC should feel compelled to make, morally speaking. In that respect, I'd think one would have to lean more toward Harrowmont, but it's hard to say with all of the political "fog of war" obscuring the intentions and motivations of both candidates. Much like in real life. But you do get a sense that Harrowmont would be weak (particularly if you bring Zevran along), so, from a Warden's perspective, you could make the case that Bhelen is the right choice, even if Harrowmont seems "nicer."
Of course, if you're a human noble, the rumors about family killing might make that enough to make supporting Bhelen impossible. And if you're a dwarf noble, well, I can't see how you'd ever support Bhelen. (unless you're the most gung-ho serious-about-being-a-Warden Warden there is, and can overlook what your brother did for the sake of defeating the darkspawn)
Bhelen vs Harrowmont + Branka who is evil?(spoiler)
Débuté par
Vuokseniska
, févr. 25 2010 06:17
Retour en haut
#27
Posté 25 février 2010 - 10:58
Thalorin1919
-
- Members
- 700 messages
There both rotten people. But I like to base it on my PC's morales.
My human noble sided with Harrowmont once he heard about how Bhelen got rid of his whole family. Which obviously wont sit well with me.
But my dwarf commoner not only like Bhelen cause he was with Rica, but because he was going to give more privledges to the casteless.
The casteless is a questionable way of doing things, but it does serve a purpose. To make sure there are always smiths, warriors, merchants, and all of that. In the matter of fact, I think Harrowmont could be as good of a choice if he didnt cut off surface trade.
Bhelen is good because he wants more privledges for those who dont have a caste. Seeing as how he is able to get back thaigs with this is also good. And he increases trade and basically ushers in a new prosperous age for Orzammar.
Its a hard decision, just like alot of decisions in this game. Most of the time, I pick Bhelen cause of his positive reforms....but he murdered his family. >.>
My human noble sided with Harrowmont once he heard about how Bhelen got rid of his whole family. Which obviously wont sit well with me.
But my dwarf commoner not only like Bhelen cause he was with Rica, but because he was going to give more privledges to the casteless.
The casteless is a questionable way of doing things, but it does serve a purpose. To make sure there are always smiths, warriors, merchants, and all of that. In the matter of fact, I think Harrowmont could be as good of a choice if he didnt cut off surface trade.
Bhelen is good because he wants more privledges for those who dont have a caste. Seeing as how he is able to get back thaigs with this is also good. And he increases trade and basically ushers in a new prosperous age for Orzammar.
Its a hard decision, just like alot of decisions in this game. Most of the time, I pick Bhelen cause of his positive reforms....but he murdered his family. >.>
#28
Posté 26 février 2010 - 12:25
Marik333
-
- Members
- 202 messages
My first playthrough, I chose Harrowmont, because he seemed the most "honorable".
My second playthrough (which was really more of a "redo" of my 1st one, to do stuff that I missed, and make a few different choices that I think really *fit* my idea of how my character should be), I chose Bhelen. Falodeth (my male elf mage, v. 1.4) was all about freedom (and even supported the Chantry in the Deep Roads simply because it was the underdog in the setting it was in, even if he disagreed with the Templars topside), so Bhelen's openness towards surfacers, support of the Casteless, and disdain for politics all appealed to him. Some of the methods may not have been the most likeable, but even the execution of Harrowmont was understandable (although Falodeth did voice protest to it, simply for the principle of the thing).
My second playthrough (which was really more of a "redo" of my 1st one, to do stuff that I missed, and make a few different choices that I think really *fit* my idea of how my character should be), I chose Bhelen. Falodeth (my male elf mage, v. 1.4) was all about freedom (and even supported the Chantry in the Deep Roads simply because it was the underdog in the setting it was in, even if he disagreed with the Templars topside), so Bhelen's openness towards surfacers, support of the Casteless, and disdain for politics all appealed to him. Some of the methods may not have been the most likeable, but even the execution of Harrowmont was understandable (although Falodeth did voice protest to it, simply for the principle of the thing).
#29
Posté 26 février 2010 - 12:46
Cat Fancy
-
- Members
- 844 messages
Oh, man. I just picked Bhelen because I'd heard that they were both terrible people so I might as well just go with the one who was more honest about it, but I really hate dwarves, so I guess I should have picked Harrowmount.
Sad.
Sad.
#30
Posté 26 février 2010 - 03:34
Masticetobbacco
-
- Members
- 1 192 messages
Branka is the true evil 
Modifié par Masticetobbacco, 26 février 2010 - 03:37 .
#31
Posté 26 février 2010 - 03:42
krylo
-
- Members
- 845 messages
guytza wrote...
As for Branka, she's nutty as a fruit bat.... but she isnt wrong. The Dwarves need the Anvil to survive and fight the Darkspawn. Perhaps we cant agree with the methods she used, but the ideal is absolutely accurate.
Actually, even if you destroy the anvil and choose Bhelen the Dwarves still manage to retake multiple Thaigs for the first time in centuries according to the epilogue.
The dwarves didn't need golems, they just needed to stop fighting amongst themselves and concentrate on the darkspawn.
My Cousland went with Bhelen while my City Elf went with Harrowmont because I figured my high cunning noble rogue who was told by her father just before leaving that a 'Cousland always does their duty first', would be able to discern that Harrowmont doesn't have what it takes to rule the dwarves and so, while Bhelen was a dirty bastard he could at least get the job done and give me the army I need. I also figured she'd be more able to see through Harrowmont's lies and access the morality/lack there of of the assembly and know the dwarves needed a king who could cut through red tape.errant_knight wrote...
The whole feels sketchy on both sides, not knowing what's going on. One may be engaging in bribes, one may be blackmailing fighters. None of it sounds good. I end up basing the decision on the fact that only one of them is rumored to be a murderer--and of his own family. That doesn't sit well with a Cousland. Bhelen sounds like the same kind of guy as Howe.
On the other hand my low cunning City Elf warrior would have no idea what to think about any of it and just go with the guy who seemed less rotten on the surface. He wouldn't understand politics or anything else and therefore wouldn't be able to reconcile the backstabbing done by Bhelen or recognize that Harrowmont was just as dirty/bad.
Modifié par krylo, 26 février 2010 - 03:42 .
#32
Posté 26 février 2010 - 03:50
The_Abyss
-
- Members
- 140 messages
I don't like the idea of a caste system personally, so I went with bhelen.
#33
Posté 26 février 2010 - 04:00
Skadi_the_Evil_Elf
-
- Members
- 6 382 messages
My human noble flipped a coin. Bhelen won.
Listening a bit to the town criers gives a bit more insight into both, as well as chatting away to some folks around Orzammar. Zevran also provides a little insight as well, when you talk to Harrowmont's lackey.
Pick Bhelen if you like the dwarves, Harrowmont if you want to see them crumble away to nothing.
Listening a bit to the town criers gives a bit more insight into both, as well as chatting away to some folks around Orzammar. Zevran also provides a little insight as well, when you talk to Harrowmont's lackey.
Pick Bhelen if you like the dwarves, Harrowmont if you want to see them crumble away to nothing.
#34
Posté 26 février 2010 - 06:17
Sarah1281
-
- Members
- 15 280 messages
Bhelen is generally better for the dwarves, although since without the Anvil he just quickly dies, it really depends on who his successor is. And who better to take over than the only living Paragon and only surviving child of the most respected King in four generations? 
I know the DN is only appointed heir of House Aeducan, but they had nine generations of rulers even without Bhelen winning and after the DN wiped out half of the Assembly with little trouble, the rest of the Assembly (who we're told already loved the DN) would be kind of scared to say no.
I know the DN is only appointed heir of House Aeducan, but they had nine generations of rulers even without Bhelen winning and after the DN wiped out half of the Assembly with little trouble, the rest of the Assembly (who we're told already loved the DN) would be kind of scared to say no.
#35
Posté 26 février 2010 - 06:22
Cuddlezarro
-
- Members
- 5 327 messages
what? Bhelen doesnt die at all if you destroy the anvil plus he has a son
Harrowmont is the one that dies if you destroy the anvil
Harrowmont is the one that dies if you destroy the anvil
#36
Posté 26 février 2010 - 06:26
Sarah1281
-
- Members
- 15 280 messages
Sorry, I meant Harrowmont dies. Bhelen dies in that case because of his insistence on staging a coup.
#37
Posté 26 février 2010 - 07:54
e-ver
-
- Members
- 228 messages
Most of my characters pick Harrowmont. They do it for different reasons though:
~ my Dalish elves (yes, I have a handful of those) pick him, because he's the traditionalist and my elves think the dwarves should remain independant instead of forging closer bonds with human society
~ my Dwarven noble picked H. as a matter of principle, although my next noble will work as a double agent and betray Bhelen in the last minute
~ my city elf wasn't very well educated, having grown up in a slum and all that, so she couldn't see through this game of political chess and went with the one who seemed more honest
The only one who picked B. so far was my Dwarfen casteless, for obvious reasons.
I think that my human noble might pick B. as well (if he ever get's his lazy behind out of Ostagar that is), because he will think that the son inheriting the throne is the natural thing to do (he's quite naïve, but maybe he will get a bit wiser til the time get arrives at Orzammar and pick B. because he can see through the Dwarven charades and recognize that B. might be a stronger ruler... we'll see).
I for one am really glad, that we are forced to pick. In my opinion games profit a lot from making the player choose between two evils, instead of offering a way where we can escape to happy-land with candyfloss clouds and feel all warm and fuzzy inside.
For example I think it really cheapens the Desire demon/Connor situation that you can just travel to the Circle Tower, without any consequences (regardless how long it takes if you have to restore the Circle first too). I'm glad that getting the circle for help is an option, but it should have some bad effects as well - after all the demon has a lot of time to wreak havoc after you left. If Redcliffe got attacked again and all survivors from the previous attack were killed, then the player would really have to choose: do I kill the child or the mother or do I risk the entire village by trying to safe both the mother and the child?
~ my Dalish elves (yes, I have a handful of those) pick him, because he's the traditionalist and my elves think the dwarves should remain independant instead of forging closer bonds with human society
~ my Dwarven noble picked H. as a matter of principle, although my next noble will work as a double agent and betray Bhelen in the last minute
~ my city elf wasn't very well educated, having grown up in a slum and all that, so she couldn't see through this game of political chess and went with the one who seemed more honest
The only one who picked B. so far was my Dwarfen casteless, for obvious reasons.
I think that my human noble might pick B. as well (if he ever get's his lazy behind out of Ostagar that is), because he will think that the son inheriting the throne is the natural thing to do (he's quite naïve, but maybe he will get a bit wiser til the time get arrives at Orzammar and pick B. because he can see through the Dwarven charades and recognize that B. might be a stronger ruler... we'll see).
PsychoBlonde wrote...
I think the whole dwarven situation
would have benefited from a difficult-to-orchestrate third option
unless Bioware was really trying to make some sort of point about how
bad politics will result in bad outcomes no matter what you do.
I for one am really glad, that we are forced to pick. In my opinion games profit a lot from making the player choose between two evils, instead of offering a way where we can escape to happy-land with candyfloss clouds and feel all warm and fuzzy inside.
For example I think it really cheapens the Desire demon/Connor situation that you can just travel to the Circle Tower, without any consequences (regardless how long it takes if you have to restore the Circle first too). I'm glad that getting the circle for help is an option, but it should have some bad effects as well - after all the demon has a lot of time to wreak havoc after you left. If Redcliffe got attacked again and all survivors from the previous attack were killed, then the player would really have to choose: do I kill the child or the mother or do I risk the entire village by trying to safe both the mother and the child?
#38
Posté 26 février 2010 - 08:04
IanPolaris
-
- Members
- 9 650 messages
Guys,
The choice between Bhelen and Harrowmount for a non-dwarf is on the surface very difficult since you seem to be forced to choose a side quickly, but you don't really seem to be given either adequate enough information or impartial enough information to make this choice.
However, not all is lost. There is actually a lot more information out there than there first appears. First of all, the town criers (before you pick an initial side) tell volumes. Harrowmount is the "conservative" while Bhelen is the "liberal" using the classic (not USA modern political) terms. You also learn that Bhelen is cunning, brilliant, and absolutely ruthless. You learn that Harrowmount has a reputation of being 'honorable' but what you never hear is how well he does at command. This lack of information about Harrowmount is your first red flag.
Also if you speak with not only the castless but the surface dwarves outside, you learn that Orzammar is dying a long, slow, and painful death in large part because society has become too brittle to function. Indeed one of the Commons merchant who is an avowed Bhelen backer says as much. Lord Hemli even agrees that Dwarven society is fatally flawed and in dire need of change and he (at least at first) backs Harrowmount. Notice that all of Bhelans enemies respect (and fear) Bhelen but don't (except for Pyral's cousin) actually support Harrowmount himself. OTOH, all of Bhelan's backers are firmly and personally commited to Bhelan. That's red flag number two.
If you have Zev in the group, listen to him because he comes from a society and background of political intrique that's very similiar to the Dwarves. Zev pegs both candidates perfectly. Bhelen is out to undermine Harrowmount's position. He is playing offense. Harrowmount is trying to control and win back the loyalty of his own people. He is playing defense. This is red flag number three and Zev says it very well. Harrowmount is fatally weak.
Finally if you have a high coercion skill, you can actually get to speak with both Prince Bhelan and Lord Harrowmount before going into the Deep Roads (by promising to backstab the other.....don't try a double-backstab or you will lock up the game and make it impossible to complete). When you do, Prince Bhelan makes no bones about his commitment to the ancient treaty and stopping the blight calling it "the Fulcrum of True Evil". Lord Harrowmount, however, waffles, and tries to say that getting your troops is an "assembly" matter. That's red flag number four. I wouldn't trust the Deshyrs to rearrange my grandmother's socks let alone raise an army for me....would any of you?
One last thing. While you do need to work for one side or the other early, you are not beholden to them when it comes to deciding who is king. It is quite possible (and indeed I have done this) to support Harrowmount the entire way through and then give Bhelen the crown anyway (or vice versa).
Given that unless you are a Dwarf Noble who really didn't kill his (or her) older brother (meaning Bhelen did), IMHO the only real logical choice as a Grey Warden not just now but in the future (since the Deep Roads are always the front line against the Darkspawn) is in fact Prince Bhelen. Picking Harrowmount is tantamount to sentencing Orzammar to death (albeit a slow and painful one).
-Polaris
The choice between Bhelen and Harrowmount for a non-dwarf is on the surface very difficult since you seem to be forced to choose a side quickly, but you don't really seem to be given either adequate enough information or impartial enough information to make this choice.
However, not all is lost. There is actually a lot more information out there than there first appears. First of all, the town criers (before you pick an initial side) tell volumes. Harrowmount is the "conservative" while Bhelen is the "liberal" using the classic (not USA modern political) terms. You also learn that Bhelen is cunning, brilliant, and absolutely ruthless. You learn that Harrowmount has a reputation of being 'honorable' but what you never hear is how well he does at command. This lack of information about Harrowmount is your first red flag.
Also if you speak with not only the castless but the surface dwarves outside, you learn that Orzammar is dying a long, slow, and painful death in large part because society has become too brittle to function. Indeed one of the Commons merchant who is an avowed Bhelen backer says as much. Lord Hemli even agrees that Dwarven society is fatally flawed and in dire need of change and he (at least at first) backs Harrowmount. Notice that all of Bhelans enemies respect (and fear) Bhelen but don't (except for Pyral's cousin) actually support Harrowmount himself. OTOH, all of Bhelan's backers are firmly and personally commited to Bhelan. That's red flag number two.
If you have Zev in the group, listen to him because he comes from a society and background of political intrique that's very similiar to the Dwarves. Zev pegs both candidates perfectly. Bhelen is out to undermine Harrowmount's position. He is playing offense. Harrowmount is trying to control and win back the loyalty of his own people. He is playing defense. This is red flag number three and Zev says it very well. Harrowmount is fatally weak.
Finally if you have a high coercion skill, you can actually get to speak with both Prince Bhelan and Lord Harrowmount before going into the Deep Roads (by promising to backstab the other.....don't try a double-backstab or you will lock up the game and make it impossible to complete). When you do, Prince Bhelan makes no bones about his commitment to the ancient treaty and stopping the blight calling it "the Fulcrum of True Evil". Lord Harrowmount, however, waffles, and tries to say that getting your troops is an "assembly" matter. That's red flag number four. I wouldn't trust the Deshyrs to rearrange my grandmother's socks let alone raise an army for me....would any of you?
One last thing. While you do need to work for one side or the other early, you are not beholden to them when it comes to deciding who is king. It is quite possible (and indeed I have done this) to support Harrowmount the entire way through and then give Bhelen the crown anyway (or vice versa).
Given that unless you are a Dwarf Noble who really didn't kill his (or her) older brother (meaning Bhelen did), IMHO the only real logical choice as a Grey Warden not just now but in the future (since the Deep Roads are always the front line against the Darkspawn) is in fact Prince Bhelen. Picking Harrowmount is tantamount to sentencing Orzammar to death (albeit a slow and painful one).
-Polaris
- ShadowLordXII aime ceci
#39
Posté 26 février 2010 - 10:47
Gipp3r
-
- Members
- 81 messages
In my opinion, this is how it goes.
Bhelen is the evil choice and Harrowmount the Good choice, however.
The outcome of the choices is clearly in favor of Bhelen since he manages to improve the dwarven society for the majority and improves the situation against the Darkspawn.
Bhelen is a stronger leader, that is fact, but that doesn't make him the good guy, quiet contrary, he's a backstabbing evil bastard who would stop at nothing to get what he wants, it just so happens to be that that improves everything for the dwarves, I have no doubt in my mind that he will in the end destroy himself through his power hunger and paranoia, and he will take the whole of orzemmar with him.
Now, Harrowmount, I truly believe that he is the good choice, the more honorables one and the most honest, He is no the bad guy, but his beliefs about how the dwarven society should work are out dated and no longer works, but thats because the darkspawn has changed the situation.
Harrowmount is a weaker person and leader, thats it, and the outcome of his rule in the end brings more misery, but that doesnt make him evil.
He is the good guy.
Bhelen is the good guy in the same way that Loghain is the good guy.
Killing, enslaving and walking over everything in your way to get it your way is not the good and honorable way, even if your end game is.
My two cents
Bhelen is the evil choice and Harrowmount the Good choice, however.
The outcome of the choices is clearly in favor of Bhelen since he manages to improve the dwarven society for the majority and improves the situation against the Darkspawn.
Bhelen is a stronger leader, that is fact, but that doesn't make him the good guy, quiet contrary, he's a backstabbing evil bastard who would stop at nothing to get what he wants, it just so happens to be that that improves everything for the dwarves, I have no doubt in my mind that he will in the end destroy himself through his power hunger and paranoia, and he will take the whole of orzemmar with him.
Now, Harrowmount, I truly believe that he is the good choice, the more honorables one and the most honest, He is no the bad guy, but his beliefs about how the dwarven society should work are out dated and no longer works, but thats because the darkspawn has changed the situation.
Harrowmount is a weaker person and leader, thats it, and the outcome of his rule in the end brings more misery, but that doesnt make him evil.
He is the good guy.
Bhelen is the good guy in the same way that Loghain is the good guy.
Killing, enslaving and walking over everything in your way to get it your way is not the good and honorable way, even if your end game is.
My two cents
#40
Posté 26 février 2010 - 11:59
mousestalker
-
- Members
- 16 945 messages
Outside of the dwarven origins, it's a coin toss. It was deliberately written to be that way.
I roleplay every character. One of my many elves went with Bhelen because she felt his name would be easier for the dwarves. Her name was Rica and all of the dwarves made a big deal about how difficult to say elven names were. So she felt that the fewer syllables the king's name had the better the future of Orzammar.
I roleplay every character. One of my many elves went with Bhelen because she felt his name would be easier for the dwarves. Her name was Rica and all of the dwarves made a big deal about how difficult to say elven names were. So she felt that the fewer syllables the king's name had the better the future of Orzammar.
#41
Posté 26 février 2010 - 12:54
Sabriana
-
- Members
- 4 381 messages
My mage and my nobles picked Bhelen. My mage was my first, and being that, she knew next to nothing about the world outside, let alone the dwarfs. She listened to everyone, there are those who claimed Bhelen killed his father, and those who claimed Harrowmont had a hand in the old king's death.
It is also stated by Bhelen (in full hearing of Harrowmont) that said Harrowmont was alone with the old king when he allegedly had to swear not to let Bhelen rule.
My mage went with Bhelen first, and delivered the letters. Forgery vs Bribery? Both are equally bad in human society, but she knows she's not among humans. When the letters are delivered, it becomes clear that Harrowmont did indeed promise the same land to both families, because they both thought (and voiced) that they would be the recipients. So that's forgery vs bribery plus hoodwinking.
Bhelen might or might not have engineered his own brother's demise. No clear answers are given anywhere regarding that.
Things were starting to look bad for Harrowmont.
Harrowmont allows his two fighters to just split. He can't even control his own people, but needs a top-sider to fight his fights. Bravo Zevran, he got that pegged.
Enter Dust Town. My mage is a good person (as are my HNFs). Seeing how those poor people are forced to live is horrible. She already learned that Bhelen wants to lighten the lot of those people. Whatever his reasons, my good-hearted PC can't let this suffering go on, and it would under Harrowmont. When she finds Rica's letter (yeah, she's a snoop, but she has good reasons), and hears that Bhelen wishes to marry a caste-less, Harrowmont looses.
Hence, Bhelen is the winner. Whithout meta-gaming, spoiling or whatever else.
Now mind you, I've not played a dwarf yet, so that might change, especially with the noble dwarf, but my human PCs had no clue about dwarven society. My HNFs knew that politics can be cut-throat, but those are top-side politics.
It is also stated by Bhelen (in full hearing of Harrowmont) that said Harrowmont was alone with the old king when he allegedly had to swear not to let Bhelen rule.
My mage went with Bhelen first, and delivered the letters. Forgery vs Bribery? Both are equally bad in human society, but she knows she's not among humans. When the letters are delivered, it becomes clear that Harrowmont did indeed promise the same land to both families, because they both thought (and voiced) that they would be the recipients. So that's forgery vs bribery plus hoodwinking.
Bhelen might or might not have engineered his own brother's demise. No clear answers are given anywhere regarding that.
Things were starting to look bad for Harrowmont.
Harrowmont allows his two fighters to just split. He can't even control his own people, but needs a top-sider to fight his fights. Bravo Zevran, he got that pegged.
Enter Dust Town. My mage is a good person (as are my HNFs). Seeing how those poor people are forced to live is horrible. She already learned that Bhelen wants to lighten the lot of those people. Whatever his reasons, my good-hearted PC can't let this suffering go on, and it would under Harrowmont. When she finds Rica's letter (yeah, she's a snoop, but she has good reasons), and hears that Bhelen wishes to marry a caste-less, Harrowmont looses.
Hence, Bhelen is the winner. Whithout meta-gaming, spoiling or whatever else.
Now mind you, I've not played a dwarf yet, so that might change, especially with the noble dwarf, but my human PCs had no clue about dwarven society. My HNFs knew that politics can be cut-throat, but those are top-side politics.
#42
Posté 26 février 2010 - 01:15
IanPolaris
-
- Members
- 9 650 messages
If you play a Dwarf Noble that does not get suckered into killing his (or her) own brother (and both Bhelen and your own second try), then you almost have to go with Harrowmount. In that particular case it's clear that either Bhelen killed Trian or arranged it to happen and set you up to take his punishment for the deed.
In this particular case, the choice isn't hard.
Likewise if you are playing a Dwarf Castless I can't see you ever supporting Harrowmount unless you are completely heartless since that would involve kicking your own sister back into the Cold (and back into Dusttown).
-Polaris
In this particular case, the choice isn't hard.
Likewise if you are playing a Dwarf Castless I can't see you ever supporting Harrowmount unless you are completely heartless since that would involve kicking your own sister back into the Cold (and back into Dusttown).
-Polaris
#43
Posté 26 février 2010 - 01:36
Reaverwind
-
- Members
- 1 724 messages
IanPolaris wrote...
If you play a Dwarf Noble that does not get suckered into killing his (or her) own brother (and both Bhelen and your own second try), then you almost have to go with Harrowmount. In that particular case it's clear that either Bhelen killed Trian or arranged it to happen and set you up to take his punishment for the deed.
-Polaris
I disagree. Remember, this is DA dwarven society, here. Even in the case of Bhelen doing the deed, your PC has multiple oppurtunities to express admiration for Bhelen's tatics in the Origin itself (and to tell Harrowmount to drop dead). It's entirely plausible for the DN to still side with Bhelen.
#44
Posté 26 février 2010 - 01:54
ejoslin
-
- Members
- 11 745 messages
My Dwarf Noble killed her brother, but it was still a setup. She really admired Bhelen for how well he played everyone. She was frustrated at Harrowmont, despite having laws and traditions on his side, being unable to prevent her from being railroaded.
Both Duncan and King Cailin, when told about what happened, responded, "Ah, dwarven politics." This is a world she knew -- she grew up in -- and her biggest failing was allowing herself to be played.
My dwarf noble was female (and this DOES make a difference), so she had actually two considerations. Did she want a strong or a weak king for Orzammar, and did she want the Aeducan bloodline to stay on the throne? A DNF can't produce an heir (a DNM may have, so he would probably choose to give his son the best future).
Anyway, my DNF, after being exposed to how the world really is instead of just seeing deep roads and the diamond quarter, had to throw her lot in with her little brother.
Both Duncan and King Cailin, when told about what happened, responded, "Ah, dwarven politics." This is a world she knew -- she grew up in -- and her biggest failing was allowing herself to be played.
My dwarf noble was female (and this DOES make a difference), so she had actually two considerations. Did she want a strong or a weak king for Orzammar, and did she want the Aeducan bloodline to stay on the throne? A DNF can't produce an heir (a DNM may have, so he would probably choose to give his son the best future).
Anyway, my DNF, after being exposed to how the world really is instead of just seeing deep roads and the diamond quarter, had to throw her lot in with her little brother.
#45
Posté 26 février 2010 - 02:34
Mindlessidiots
-
- Members
- 42 messages
Bhelen is a vicious bastard, anyone who has played the Dwarve Nobel Origin would know this. Plus, if you side with Bhelen you can find out how he forges papers to make it look like Harrowmont is trying to swindle the nobles. Bhelen wants to be king for one reason, and that is for the power. You see what he does to that guard in the beginning of entering Orzamar. Whatever good he does as king is not down with pure purposes, remember that evil people can do good things to.
Harromont is a honorable man, but he is to tradtion bound to be effective at all as king. He did not even want to be king untill he relized that Bhelen was trying to become king, and followed King Endrins dying wish of making sure that did not happn. And about the golems, Harromont does not allow Branka to condunct raids on the service, she does it by her self.
Harromont is a honorable man, but he is to tradtion bound to be effective at all as king. He did not even want to be king untill he relized that Bhelen was trying to become king, and followed King Endrins dying wish of making sure that did not happn. And about the golems, Harromont does not allow Branka to condunct raids on the service, she does it by her self.
#46
Posté 26 février 2010 - 02:37
ejoslin
-
- Members
- 11 745 messages
Mindlessidiot, do you think bribery is the act of an honorable man?
Edit: Am I wrong for saying that I wish everyone I disagreed with had such a user name?
Edit: Am I wrong for saying that I wish everyone I disagreed with had such a user name?
Modifié par ejoslin, 26 février 2010 - 02:37 .
#47
Posté 26 février 2010 - 02:40
RavenousBear
-
- Members
- 1 643 messages
Herr Uhl wrote...
maxernst wrote...
@Caak7--that thought occurred to me, as well, after learning how tradition-minded Harrowmont is. Unfortunately, my PC didn't take this into account and trusted the Shaperate, despite his obviously very traditional views--ask him about the Casteless! Operating with more information, probably would have chosen Bhelen.
I think Vartog confirms them being faked if you confront him about it after going to the shaperate.
I took the papers to the Shaperate and then had a chat with Vartag who admits he altered the details of the agreement (gave a pathetic speech about devotion to Bhelen than tell the truth) but not so sure if Harrowmont did indeed commit bribery against Lord Dace and Lord Helmi.
Also, when you first enter Orzammar with the confrontation between the two candidates, Bhelen accuses Harrowmont of killing King Endrin, whom Harrowmont takes great offense and threatens to imprison Bhelen. While the supporters and Harrowmont says King Endrin wanted the throne to be handed to Harrowmont, I have found no proof that the King indeed wanted Harrowmont to stop his son from becoming the next heir.
When I searched Harrowmont's estate, I found a letter from King Endrin which states he regrets exiling his middle child (DN) to the deep roads and pleads Harrowmont to send a search party to look for his kid as he thinks he/she could still be alive and the Aeducan blood line is doomed. Whether or not Harrowmont did indeed send a search party or not cannot be proven, however it adds another angle in which Harrowmont could have left the dwarf noble to die in the deep roads if Harrowmont knew he/she was still alive. If Ruck could technically still be "alive", it is not farfetched that the noble is still alive, especially with his/her training in the palace. I have yet to discover any hard evidence that King Endrin did indeed want Harrowmont to take the throne and prevent his youngest son Bhelen from continuing the line.
#48
Posté 26 février 2010 - 02:41
Sabriana
-
- Members
- 4 381 messages
Mindlessidiots wrote...
Bhelen is a vicious bastard, anyone who has played the Dwarve Nobel Origin would know this. Plus, if you side with Bhelen you can find out how he forges papers to make it look like Harrowmont is trying to swindle the nobles. Bhelen wants to be king for one reason, and that is for the power. You see what he does to that guard in the beginning of entering Orzamar. Whatever good he does as king is not down with pure purposes, remember that evil people can do good things to.
Harromont is a honorable man, but he is to tradtion bound to be effective at all as king. He did not even want to be king untill he relized that Bhelen was trying to become king, and followed King Endrins dying wish of making sure that did not happn. And about the golems, Harromont does not allow Branka to condunct raids on the service, she does it by her self.
Bolded by me.
Harrowmont is trying to swindle the nobles. He did promise the same land to Helmi and Dace. Did you miss that? Helmi and Dace both thought they were going to get that land in question, their reactions are plain enough. Before the seeminlgy forged papers appeared, neither knew that the other was also promised that land.
#49
Posté 26 février 2010 - 02:47
krylo
-
- Members
- 845 messages
Incorrect.Sabriana wrote...
Mindlessidiots wrote...
Bhelen is a vicious bastard, anyone who has played the Dwarve Nobel Origin would know this. Plus, if you side with Bhelen you can find out how he forges papers to make it look like Harrowmont is trying to swindle the nobles. Bhelen wants to be king for one reason, and that is for the power. You see what he does to that guard in the beginning of entering Orzamar. Whatever good he does as king is not down with pure purposes, remember that evil people can do good things to.
Harromont is a honorable man, but he is to tradtion bound to be effective at all as king. He did not even want to be king untill he relized that Bhelen was trying to become king, and followed King Endrins dying wish of making sure that did not happn. And about the golems, Harromont does not allow Branka to condunct raids on the service, she does it by her self.
Bolded by me.
Harrowmont is trying to swindle the nobles. He did promise the same land to Helmi and Dace. Did you miss that? Helmi and Dace both thought they were going to get that land in question, their reactions are plain enough. Before the seeminlgy forged papers appeared, neither knew that the other was also promised that land.
Vartag altered the papers to make it appear they were both getting the same land.
In truth they were both being offered different land.
Take the papers to the Shaperate and ask them to look over them. The shaper will tell you that exactly.
Funny story, I read your post before his and thought, "Wow, that's uncharacteristically ****y of Ejoslin" then I read your edit, glanced up, and noticed that, no, Mindlessidiots was actually his screen name.ejoslin wrote...
Mindlessidiot, do you think bribery is the act of an honorable man?
Edit: Am I wrong for saying that I wish everyone I disagreed with had such a user name?
I had a pretty good laugh.
#50
Posté 26 février 2010 - 02:51
Sabriana
-
- Members
- 4 381 messages
According to Vartog, the shaper is biased. My mage knows nothing to the contrary. I've not read the papers, did you?
Who's to say what parcel of land they were promised.
It furthermore makes it clear that the bribery did exist. No matter whether they were promised the same, or different parcels of land.
So that makes it still bribery vs. forgery.
Bhelen is nothing if not shrewd. All Helmi and Dace have to do is talk to each other. If they realize that Harrowmont did indeed promise them different parcels, Bhelen's position would most likely be weakened with both houses. Because if Helmi and Dace find out that the papers they received were forged, they shouldn't have any problems figuring out who forged them, and why.
Who's to say what parcel of land they were promised.
It furthermore makes it clear that the bribery did exist. No matter whether they were promised the same, or different parcels of land.
So that makes it still bribery vs. forgery.
Bhelen is nothing if not shrewd. All Helmi and Dace have to do is talk to each other. If they realize that Harrowmont did indeed promise them different parcels, Bhelen's position would most likely be weakened with both houses. Because if Helmi and Dace find out that the papers they received were forged, they shouldn't have any problems figuring out who forged them, and why.
Modifié par Sabriana, 26 février 2010 - 02:59 .
