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[Mindlessidiots]

ejoslin wrote...

Mindlessidiot, do you think bribery is the act of an honorable man?

Edit: Am I wrong for saying that I wish everyone I disagreed with had such a user name?

No, but since the shaperate told me the papers were forged, and Bhelen's second confirmed it, I kind of wonder why you even bother asking this question. 

And while it is still bribery, that's small compared to what Bhelen does.

Modifié par Mindlessidiots, 26 février 2010 - 03:13 .

[Selene Moonsong]

I haven't completely played through those choices myself, mostly because I find them both to be scum based on the information received from the NPCs in the game. Playing a dwarf on my current run through makes it even more difficult to decide... especially when my personal preference is niether of thm...

[maxernst]

I'm not sure that bribery would be viewed that negatively--maybe it's considered normal since Bhelen obviously doesn't see any advantage in trying to bring bribery to light. Helmi really ought to vote for Bhelen though, based on his political beliefs.

[mousestalker]

Selene Moonsong wrote...

I haven't completely played through those choices myself, mostly because I find them both to be scum based on the information received from the NPCs in the game. Playing a dwarf on my current run through makes it even more difficult to decide... especially when my personal preference is niether of thm...

Dwarf noble or dwarf commoner?

If noble, how did you feel about trion and what did you do to him, if anything?

If commoner, do you love your sister and mother?

I found my choices much easier when playing a dwarf.

[ejoslin]

Mindlessidiots wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Mindlessidiot, do you think bribery is the act of an honorable man?

Edit: Am I wrong for saying that I wish everyone I disagreed with had such a user name?

No, but since the shaperate told me the papers were forged, and Bhelen's second confirmed it, I kind of wonder why you even bother asking this question. 

And while it is still bribery, that's small compared to what Bhelen does.

You asserted that Harrowmont was honorable which is why I asked.  You didn't say he was honorable compared to Bhelen.

In my opinion, both are part of dwarven politics, which is not an honorable game to play to begin with.

[RavenousBear]

maxernst wrote...

I'm not sure that bribery would be viewed that negatively--maybe it's considered normal since Bhelen obviously doesn't see any advantage in trying to bring bribery to light. Helmi really ought to vote for Bhelen though, based on his political beliefs.

If I had it my way I would make him the next king and send the other two worms down in the deep roads to look for their beloved Paragon Branka.

[Sabriana]

Sabriana wrote...

According to Vartog, the shaper is biased. My mage knows nothing to the contrary. I've not read the papers, did you?

Who's to say what parcel of land they were promised.
It furthermore makes it clear that the bribery did exist. No matter whether they were promised the same, or different parcels of land.

So that makes it still bribery vs. forgery.

Bhelen is nothing if not shrewd. All Helmi and Dace have to do is talk to each other. If they realize that Harrowmont did indeed promise them different parcels, Bhelen's position would most likely be weakened with both houses. Because if Helmi and Dace find out that the papers they received were forged, they shouldn't have any problems figuring out who forged them, and why.

@ Maxernst

Yeah, I know I'm quoting myself. Bribery might not be viewed as wrong, but neither should forgery then. Especially when the forgery exposes the bribery.

But I agree with you on Helmi. His views are far closer aligned with Bhelen's political views.

[Reaverwind]

mousestalker wrote...

Selene Moonsong wrote...

I haven't completely played through those choices myself, mostly because I find them both to be scum based on the information received from the NPCs in the game. Playing a dwarf on my current run through makes it even more difficult to decide... especially when my personal preference is niether of thm...

Dwarf noble or dwarf commoner?

If noble, how did you feel about trion and what did you do to him, if anything?

If commoner, do you love your sister and mother?

I found my choices much easier when playing a dwarf.

Heh, heh - my DN despised Trian and thought Bhelen did the family a favor. Only thing she didn't really appreciate was being the one left holding the bag. Obviously, she was a bit envious for not coming up with the idea, herself.

My DC was solidly behind Bhelen.

[Vanderbilt_Grad]

IanPolaris wrote...

Guys,

The choice between Bhelen and Harrowmount for a non-dwarf is on the surface very difficult since you seem to be forced to choose a side quickly, but you don't really seem to be given either adequate enough information or impartial enough information to make this choice.

However, not all is lost.  There is actually a lot more information out there than there first appears.  First of all, the town criers (before you pick an initial side) tell volumes.  Harrowmount is the "conservative" while Bhelen is the "liberal"  using the classic (not USA modern political) terms.  You also learn that Bhelen is cunning, brilliant, and absolutely ruthless.  You learn that Harrowmount has a reputation of being 'honorable' but what you never hear is how well he does at command.  This lack of information about Harrowmount is your first red flag.

Also if you speak with not only the castless but the surface dwarves outside, you learn that Orzammar is dying a long, slow, and painful death in large part because society has become too brittle to function.  Indeed one of the Commons merchant who is an avowed Bhelen backer says as much.  Lord Hemli even agrees that Dwarven society is fatally flawed and in dire need of change and he (at least at first) backs Harrowmount.  Notice that all of Bhelans enemies respect (and fear) Bhelen but don't (except for Pyral's cousin) actually support Harrowmount himself.  OTOH, all of Bhelan's backers are firmly and personally commited to Bhelan.  That's red flag number two.

If you have Zev in the group, listen to him because he comes from a society and background of political intrique that's very similiar to the Dwarves.  Zev pegs both candidates perfectly.  Bhelen is out to undermine Harrowmount's position.  He is playing offense.  Harrowmount is trying to control and win back the loyalty of his own people.  He is playing defense.  This is red flag number three and Zev says it very well.  Harrowmount is fatally weak.

Finally if you have a high coercion skill, you can actually get to speak with both Prince Bhelan and Lord Harrowmount before going into the Deep Roads (by promising to backstab the other.....don't try a double-backstab or you will lock up the game and make it impossible to complete).  When you do, Prince Bhelan makes no bones about his commitment to the ancient treaty and stopping the blight calling it "the Fulcrum of True Evil".  Lord Harrowmount, however, waffles, and tries to say that getting your troops is an "assembly" matter.  That's red flag number four.  I wouldn't trust the Deshyrs to rearrange my grandmother's socks let alone raise an army for me....would any of you?

One last thing.  While you do need to work for one side or the other early, you are not beholden to them when it comes to deciding who is king.  It is quite possible (and indeed I have done this) to support Harrowmount the entire way through and then give Bhelen the crown anyway (or vice versa).

Given that unless you are a Dwarf Noble who really didn't kill his (or her) older brother (meaning Bhelen did), IMHO the only real logical choice as a Grey Warden not just now but in the future (since the Deep Roads are always the front line against the Darkspawn) is in fact Prince Bhelen.  Picking Harrowmount is tantamount to sentencing Orzammar to death (albeit a slow and painful one).

-Polaris

I like this.  I'll add that one additional bit of info is there for the taking early.  You can go in Harrowmont's study / bedroom and find a letter from the old king talking about why he desn't want Bhelen on the thrown.  It's basically the Dwarf Noble origin from his perspective.

[ejoslin]

I think people get mixed up over, "Who do I like better," and, "what kind of ruler is best is a wartime situation." Because Orzammar has been at wars for centuries, and it's a war they're losing. Slowly, but surely. The only way to save the country is to change it.



Plus, the opening cutscene when first entering Orzammar is telling. You can react in horror at seeing a cold blooded murder -- or you can look at how one contender to the throne has his people solidly behind him, and the other has his people running, not even trying to defend their man. And then ask yourself again, which would be the best ruler during war time.

[RavenousBear]

Vanderbilt_Grad wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Guys,

The choice between Bhelen and Harrowmount for a non-dwarf is on the surface very difficult since you seem to be forced to choose a side quickly, but you don't really seem to be given either adequate enough information or impartial enough information to make this choice.

However, not all is lost.  There is actually a lot more information out there than there first appears.  First of all, the town criers (before you pick an initial side) tell volumes.  Harrowmount is the "conservative" while Bhelen is the "liberal"  using the classic (not USA modern political) terms.  You also learn that Bhelen is cunning, brilliant, and absolutely ruthless.  You learn that Harrowmount has a reputation of being 'honorable' but what you never hear is how well he does at command.  This lack of information about Harrowmount is your first red flag.

Also if you speak with not only the castless but the surface dwarves outside, you learn that Orzammar is dying a long, slow, and painful death in large part because society has become too brittle to function.  Indeed one of the Commons merchant who is an avowed Bhelen backer says as much.  Lord Hemli even agrees that Dwarven society is fatally flawed and in dire need of change and he (at least at first) backs Harrowmount.  Notice that all of Bhelans enemies respect (and fear) Bhelen but don't (except for Pyral's cousin) actually support Harrowmount himself.  OTOH, all of Bhelan's backers are firmly and personally commited to Bhelan.  That's red flag number two.

If you have Zev in the group, listen to him because he comes from a society and background of political intrique that's very similiar to the Dwarves.  Zev pegs both candidates perfectly.  Bhelen is out to undermine Harrowmount's position.  He is playing offense.  Harrowmount is trying to control and win back the loyalty of his own people.  He is playing defense.  This is red flag number three and Zev says it very well.  Harrowmount is fatally weak.

Finally if you have a high coercion skill, you can actually get to speak with both Prince Bhelan and Lord Harrowmount before going into the Deep Roads (by promising to backstab the other.....don't try a double-backstab or you will lock up the game and make it impossible to complete).  When you do, Prince Bhelan makes no bones about his commitment to the ancient treaty and stopping the blight calling it "the Fulcrum of True Evil".  Lord Harrowmount, however, waffles, and tries to say that getting your troops is an "assembly" matter.  That's red flag number four.  I wouldn't trust the Deshyrs to rearrange my grandmother's socks let alone raise an army for me....would any of you?

One last thing.  While you do need to work for one side or the other early, you are not beholden to them when it comes to deciding who is king.  It is quite possible (and indeed I have done this) to support Harrowmount the entire way through and then give Bhelen the crown anyway (or vice versa).

Given that unless you are a Dwarf Noble who really didn't kill his (or her) older brother (meaning Bhelen did), IMHO the only real logical choice as a Grey Warden not just now but in the future (since the Deep Roads are always the front line against the Darkspawn) is in fact Prince Bhelen.  Picking Harrowmount is tantamount to sentencing Orzammar to death (albeit a slow and painful one).

-Polaris

I like this.  I'll add that one additional bit of info is there for the taking early.  You can go in Harrowmont's study / bedroom and find a letter from the old king talking about why he desn't want Bhelen on the thrown.  It's basically the Dwarf Noble origin from his perspective.

I am not so sure in that letter he does not want Bhelen king; I think he is so depressed over the loss of his two children that he is pleading for help from Harrowmont. He does say that the Aeducan house is lost though, so maybe there he means he does not want Bhelen King. Here is what the letter exactly states:

"My Lord Harrowmont,
My guilt weighs heavily on me, and I know now that I was a fool. Only a
fool would cut out his own heart and burn it for the sake of
appearances. I allowed the Assembly to send my child to exile and death
because I feared an inquiry into Trian's murder would taint our house
with scandal. You have been my rock and my shield these long months and
for that I thank you. But I must ask for one thing more. I wish to
discover if my child survived. Even the smallest trace will set my mind
at ease. Send your men, your scouts, anyone who will go!
Bhelen thinks I am mad. He says that if word spreads of my
wish, our House will be undone. He doesn't know that Aeducan is already
lost. I destroyed us when I sacrificed what was most precious. Please,
Pyral, help me. I come to you not as a king, but as a father.
--A note from the late King Endrin Aeducan."

[maxernst]

The problem is you can also look at it as that even with an unassailable hereditary claim to the throne, many people still don't want Bhelen. And that while change in Orzammar would be good in for the dwarves in the long run, it might lead to civil unrest in the short run--which is more to the point for the Grey Warden. While the ultimate outcome is obviously better for the dwarves if you choose Bhelen (and in retrospect, predictably so), it doesn't actually make any difference in terms of fighting the blight...at least not this time around.



But this is going back to the old should we pick Harrowmont or Bhelen, which is different from the OP's question.

[Sarah1281]

The note from King Endrin the DN gets from Gorim says some of the same things that the letter to Harrowmont said, but it went one step further saying that his sacrifice was for nothing since he's seen what Bhelen really is and makes it sound like he really doesn't want him on the throne. Of course, given that since he admits he never thought the DN was guilty of Trian's murder, there wouldn't be a scandal if Bhelen hadn't been responsible so he probably realized what happened before the DN was even exiled. In that case, you have to wonder what 'seen what Bhelen truly is' means. My bet is on he never realized how allergic Bhelen was to tradition until he actually started paying attention to him, especially since the first time you see the King in the origin story, he's telling nobls that traiditon is more important than money.

[Vuokseniska]

but you have to admit, Bhelen is the better choice when it comes to saving dwarven society. Backstabbing politics is normal in dwarven culture so technically bhelen can never be the bad guy

[RavenousBear]

Sarah1281 wrote...

The note from King Endrin the DN gets from Gorim says some of the same things that the letter to Harrowmont said, but it went one step further saying that his sacrifice was for nothing since he's seen what Bhelen really is and makes it sound like he really doesn't want him on the throne. Of course, given that since he admits he never thought the DN was guilty of Trian's murder, there wouldn't be a scandal if Bhelen hadn't been responsible so he probably realized what happened before the DN was even exiled. In that case, you have to wonder what 'seen what Bhelen truly is' means. My bet is on he never realized how allergic Bhelen was to tradition until he actually started paying attention to him, especially since the first time you see the King in the origin story, he's telling nobls that traiditon is more important than money.

Hmm perhaps Gorim himself altered the letter? As your best buddy and being exiled by Bhelen, he has the motivation to modify the letter for revenge.

[e-ver]

Gipp3r wrote...

In my opinion, this is how it goes.
Bhelen is the evil choice and Harrowmount the Good choice, however.

The outcome of the choices is clearly in favor of Bhelen since he manages to improve the dwarven society for the majority and improves the situation against the Darkspawn.

Bhelen is a stronger leader, that is fact, but that doesn't make him the good guy, quiet contrary, he's a backstabbing evil bastard who would stop at nothing to get what he wants, it just so happens to be that that improves everything for the dwarves, I have no doubt in my mind that he will in the end destroy himself through his power hunger and paranoia, and he will take the whole of orzemmar with him.

Now, Harrowmount, I truly believe that he is the good choice, the more honorables one and the most honest, He is no the bad guy, but his beliefs about how the dwarven society should work are out dated and no longer works, but thats because the darkspawn has changed the situation.
Harrowmount is a weaker person and leader, thats it, and the outcome of his rule in the end brings more misery, but that doesnt make him evil.
He is the good guy.
Bhelen is the good guy in the same way that Loghain is the good guy.
Killing, enslaving and walking over everything in your way to get it your way is not the good and honorable way, even if your end game is.

My two cents

I agree with this posting very much. I think some people who prefer Bhelen mainly do so, because we know about the ending slides.
And as Gipp3r said, the Dwarves may flourish (for a time) under Bhelen's rule, but this comes at a heavy price. He turns Orzammar into a dictatorship.
We also don't know what will happen to the Dwarves in the future, beyond the scale of the epilogue slide I mean. In history the span of decades is nothing, and a situation that might seem as a great progress might lead to ruin fifty or hundred years later.

I'm not saying that this makes Harrowmont the better choice, I simply want to point out that the equation "Bhelen = positive for Orzammar = good choice" is a bit too simple.

[maxernst]

Is an egalitarian dictatorship worse than a rigidly hierarchical oligarchy? Obviously, Edward Gibbon thought so (and we are basically comparing the Roman Empire to the Roman Republic), but I'm not convinced it's such a huge price.

[jpdipity]

After playing as a dwarf noble, I will never pick Harrowmont. I admire that Bhelan was a step ahead of my well-loved dwarf. Not to mention, I have no doubt that Trian would have tried to slay me at a later date. Bhelan shows that he would make an even a stronger leader than your DN by his actions. If you choose to slay Trian – you’ve murdered your brother and must face the consequences. If you don’t, it shows that you (Mr. Goody-Two-Shoes and loved by all) are unwillingly to do what is best for Dwarven society. Trian on the throne would be a disaster given his tyrannical nature. Only if my Dwarf had been able to outmaneuver Bhelan, would he have proven himself to make the better Dwarven King.



I, too, doubt that Harrowmont searched for me as requested by the king and likely schemed to put himself in a position to be chosen by the king in his dying days – if he was even truly chosen.



Even with the other origins, there is significant reason to choose Bhelan over Harrowmont. You are repeatedly told to try and understand Dwarven politics and culture. If you do that and listen, you’ll see Bhelan is the stronger and more logical choice. Both Bhelan and Harrowmont are surrounded by questionably ethical actions, but only one of them is willing to make changes. Changes are necessary for their society to survive. At the time, we don’t know if Bhelan’s choices will result in a better society or not, but we know for certain that Harrowmont, who will make no changes, will not.



I see no reason to pick Harrowmont regardless of my orgin.

[Jah77]

Allerleihrau wrote...
And as Gipp3r said, the Dwarves may flourish (for a time) under Bhelen's rule, but this comes at a heavy price. He turns Orzammar into a dictatorship.

How heavy that price is really depends on who you ask. The Assembly only represents the upper crust of dwarven society, so for a commoner, its dissolution would hardly make any real difference. Considering that the Assembly is unable to pick a new king and seems to be more concerned with power struggles and petty squabbling than the darkspawn who threaten Orzammar's existence, getting rid of that institution might not be such a bad thing.

[earl of the north]

It's quite possible for Bhelen not to kill any member of his family during the DN origin story.....

Last DN playthrough my FDN, Killed Trian.....okay Bhelen arranged it and framed my MC but he didn't kill anybody my MC did. My MC survived to join the Grey Wardens and even Harrowmont admits that Bhelen probably didn't kill his father, since he was with him.

Branka is stone cold nuts, she is the worst possible person to give control of the Golems too, the Dwarfs dont really need them anyway, they just need to stop wasting the large pool of untapped manpower (the casteless) that their military needs for Ozammar to survive.....Harrowmont pretty much guarantees the long term doom of the Dwarfs, unless someone like Bhelen replaces him after his death.

My FDN backed Bhelen, even if he was an ass to her when she helped him onto the Throne, he was still the best choice for Ozammar's survival and to combat the Darkspawn.

Modifié par earl of the north, 01 mars 2010 - 12:40 .

[Syntia13]

On my first playthrough the decision making looked like this: My Dalish didn't know anything about dwarves, so he went about asking question and listening to heralds and gossip. From that he gathered that Harrowmont was a more 'forgiving and levelheaded' guy, while Behlen was suspected of fracticide, AND murdered somebody the first time I saw him. Also, Harrowmont stood by "the Dwarven way", and being Dalish (keepers of the lore) my rogue was all about upkeeping tradition.

But then I got to talk to the Shaper. He told me about casts. More precisely, he said that castless newborns should be killed on the spot 'cause they didn't deserve to live.

It was like a slap to the face. It quite literally knocked the breath out of me (both as PC and as player).

THIS was the grand tradition Harrowmont wanted to keep?! F*ck this!

Off to Behlen the crown went.

I was glad to read in epilogue that it turned out for the best.

[AlgolagniaVolcae]

Bhelen: Supports abolishing the caste system, more open trade with the surface, and generally challenges the traditions which have brought the dwarves to the edge of extinction.

Harrowmont: Supports discrimination, isolation from the surface despite the economy being fueled by it, and is stuck in the old ways.

Neither are honorable men, the story is perfect for a grey warden due to it's grey areas. Nothing is black and white in politics.

The choice is basically between Forgiveness(Bhelen), or Vengeance(Harrowmont). As it's pretty clear Bhelen is the better choice for the future of the city.

As a dwarf noble I usually side with Bhelen now, just because he represents most of my own feelings of Orzammar.

For instance when speaking to Lord Dace during the origin do you,

A: Help because it's the right thing to do?
B: Help because it gets you 25 gold?
C: Betray his trust and humiliate him?
D: Kill his son for some perceived offense to your families honor?

If you answered A, or B then Bhelen should be your choice for king as he repesents equality, and financial prosperity.

If you answered C, or D then Harrowmont should be your choice for king as he represents discrimination, and tradition.

As to Branka, she's crazy any way you look at it and it's purely based on if you want golems for the end of the game or not. Otherwise I always destroy the forge, even though the items Caridin can make for you are crap.

Modifié par AlgolagniaVolcae, 01 mars 2010 - 01:46 .

[wcholcombe]

The results have no bearing in my games.



Harrowmont is a better person to most of my characters then Bhelen.



My dwarf noble finds Bhelen repugnant and anathema because not only what was done to him, but also because he seeks to completely destroy and overturn dwarven society.



My Dwarf Noble would have fully been in favor of sending the castless into the anvil. There you go, plenty of nobles and clean out the slums



Completely overturning civilization and seizing absolute power isn't exactly a good thing. Let us remember. Hitler turned Germany into the economic power in the world prior to WW2, that didn't work out so well for anyone.

[AlgolagniaVolcae]

wcholcombe wrote...
Completely overturning civilization and seizing absolute power isn't exactly a good thing. Let us remember. Hitler turned Germany into the economic power in the world prior to WW2, that didn't work out so well for anyone.

Hitler never overturned German society either, he preyed upon it's traditions to stir up national pride. There are no similarities between him and Bhelen, if anything Harrowmont is more akin to Hitler due to his discrimination, and insane adherence to racial pride.

The fact you want to march all castless off to concentration camps(the anvil) just further proves Harrowmont is the "bad guy".

Modifié par AlgolagniaVolcae, 01 mars 2010 - 09:00 .

[wcholcombe]

no, it just more accurately reflects the society beliefs that the DN would have had as opposed to using my own preconcieved notions. I am not saying that I would do that, but my DN definately would. The casteless are all useless lazy criminals in his opinion anyway. They would be better as golems for the legion of dead rather then occupying space in dust town.  Is that evil?  Or is that dealing with a problem within the constraints of the society within which he was raised?

There is the similarity of racial pride with hitler and harrowmount, but the actual similarity I was referring to was Hitler siezing absolute power and exterminating his rivals-- alla Bhelen removing the assembly.

Modifié par wcholcombe, 01 mars 2010 - 09:07 .