98 réponses à ce sujet

[RavenousBear]

I am very certain Bhelen would turn the castless into golems if he had possession of the anvil; Bhelen's and Branka's egos however prevent that. Harrowmont is too weak to oppose Branka and lets her mass produce golems. Neither choice is a viable option in my opinion as I see Bhelen's ego and craving for power leading to Orzammar into a bloody demise. Right now I am stuck on this decision for my 2nd character, it was much easier to decide with Dwarf Commoner.



I guess I should not surprised Hitler's name popped up in this thread.

[AlgolagniaVolcae]

Bhelen is more in tune with Julius Caesar if you want to attach him to a real world leader.

[RavenousBear]

I have heard people compare him to Caesar; though I am not sure that is entirely accurate as Caesar was a great general before becoming dictator (famous for defeating Gaul). Not much is known about Bhelen's background in warfare. Either way I see both "candidates" dead in the future as I see a possible coup d'etat from the nobles and warrior castes.

[Kimarous]

You DO realize that "The Hitler Card" is considered a logical fallacy, right?



Let's look at a different example: China. It used to be a huge mess of scattered, warring states until the ruler of Qin conquered everyone else, unifying the land under his banner. It has been one of the world's strongest nations ever since.

[Kimarous]

EDIT: double post

Modifié par Kimarous, 01 mars 2010 - 10:20 .

[Thalorin1919]

Caak7i wrote...

I have heard people compare him to Caesar; though I am not sure that is entirely accurate as Caesar was a great general before becoming dictator (famous for defeating Gaul). Not much is known about Bhelen's background in warfare. Either way I see both "candidates" dead in the future as I see a possible coup d'etat from the nobles and warrior castes.

It is said that he is a very intelligent person, and ruthless obviously. Warfare wise, he does have some knowledgee. In the dwarf noble, you find out that he does lead his own team when they go into the deep roads, and I reckon he does that alot.

Nobles and other castes tried several times to kill him. Whether by poison or murder, so he ended up dissolving the assembly and ruled on his own. But yes, I could see something happening to him, but at the same time he seems to be very good at dwarven politics.

[RavenousBear]

Kimarous wrote...

You DO realize that "The Hitler Card" is considered a logical fallacy, right?

Let's look at a different example: China. It used to be a huge mess of scattered, warring states until the ruler of Qin conquered everyone else, unifying the land under his banner. It has been one of the world's strongest nations ever since.

I know, it was brought up by someone else earlier which I found a bit of a reach. .

[Thalorin1919]

And also, am I the only one that declared Bhelen king on my dwarf noble?



I mean, look at it this way. This guy knows dwarven politics, but then anyone else. Plus his reforms are a positive thing for all dwarves, and Harrowmont is an idiot.



My time in Orzammar is over, and as a dwarf and grey warden I want whats best for the dwarves, and for them to push back the darkspawn. Bhelen is the logical choice.



Its just politics.

[wcholcombe]

I don't understand the logical fallacy of citing hitler as I did.



I was referring to his seizing power and how even though he had a great many early successes from the perspective of his country--leading economic power in the world--the unchecked nature of his power was also his downfall. I was making a quick comparison to the short term benefits of Bhelen's rule vs. what could be the long term troubles.



I don't care so much for the Caesar comparison as other then taking power he really did little as emperor to fit in this comparison.



The Qin example I also find lacking as China had a long term history of different warlords and such attempting to conquer all. There was no total upending of society as in regards to the removal of the assembly.



Mussolini is similar, enjoyed early successes through negotiation and bully tactics, but long term was unable to maintane power base.



Stalin might be a good comparison, but I don't think Bhelen is in his league as far as ruthlessness goes. Although the both did have their chief rival killed....

[wcholcombe]

Thalorin1919 wrote...

And also, am I the only one that declared Bhelen king on my dwarf noble?

I mean, look at it this way. This guy knows dwarven politics, but then anyone else. Plus his reforms are a positive thing for all dwarves, and Harrowmont is an idiot.

My time in Orzammar is over, and as a dwarf and grey warden I want whats best for the dwarves, and for them to push back the darkspawn. Bhelen is the logical choice.

Its just politics.

True, but considering your father was a traditionalist, one would think you would hold more to tradition adn such.  I don't doubt looking at it from the outside and viewing it as politics you could reach that point, I just think as a dwarf who was raised to work witht he assembly and to disregard and look down upon the casteless, you couldn't agree with Bhelen.

and yes, I agree longterm it appears Bhelen is the better choice, but from you in game knowledge, you won't know that.

Modifié par wcholcombe, 01 mars 2010 - 11:06 .

[Charsen]

My human mage (loyalist) picked Harrowmont because he was brought up to strictly understand and think within a caste-like system. I mean, mages can never not be mages, templars always have authority over mages, etc. Then if you leave the circle and you're an apostate, much like leaving Orzammar makes you a surfacer. It's all very understandable to him, given his background, so he didn't even see the wrong in that.

Additionally, when he had heard of Bhelen's family killing, my Warden was appalled. He saved the Circle out of duty to his only family, and so he couldn't imagine anyone who would willingly kill their own.

But yeah - Branka had to be put down. She was feral like a blood mage. Also, my Warden considered Shale to be a strong friend, and would not betray her too. The choice was easy; Caridin was the ally, and the anvil had to be destroyed.

I admit though, I was sad to see the fate of the dwarves in the epilogue. They really didn't turn out well despite my Warden's best efforts. =/

Modifié par Charsen, 01 mars 2010 - 11:24 .

[Thalorin1919]

wcholcombe wrote...

I don't understand the logical fallacy of citing hitler as I did.

I was referring to his seizing power and how even though he had a great many early successes from the perspective of his country--leading economic power in the world--the unchecked nature of his power was also his downfall. I was making a quick comparison to the short term benefits of Bhelen's rule vs. what could be the long term troubles.

I don't care so much for the Caesar comparison as other then taking power he really did little as emperor to fit in this comparison.

The Qin example I also find lacking as China had a long term history of different warlords and such attempting to conquer all. There was no total upending of society as in regards to the removal of the assembly.

Mussolini is similar, enjoyed early successes through negotiation and bully tactics, but long term was unable to maintane power base.

Stalin might be a good comparison, but I don't think Bhelen is in his league as far as ruthlessness goes. Although the both did have their chief rival killed....

I dont know why you are using Stalin as a comparison. You do realize Stalin stripped many people of there rights, and forced them to work in factories, so he could produce a powerful military and food for his soldiers but care less about the people?

Bhelen offers more rights to the casteless pushing back the darkspawn, and increases the economy with more surface trade. Big difference.

[IanPolaris]

Actually now that I think on it a bit, I know exactly which historical ruler Prince Bhelen reminds me of:



Czar Peter the Great of Russia



-Polaris

[Revya]

First things first when you enter Orzammar you are entering Bizzaro world Good is bad, Bad is good that is how you resolve things nicely.



Still I wonder if this will have any impact on the Expansion.

[wcholcombe]

Thalorin1919 wrote...

wcholcombe wrote...

I don't understand the logical fallacy of citing hitler as I did.

I was referring to his seizing power and how even though he had a great many early successes from the perspective of his country--leading economic power in the world--the unchecked nature of his power was also his downfall. I was making a quick comparison to the short term benefits of Bhelen's rule vs. what could be the long term troubles.

I don't care so much for the Caesar comparison as other then taking power he really did little as emperor to fit in this comparison.

The Qin example I also find lacking as China had a long term history of different warlords and such attempting to conquer all. There was no total upending of society as in regards to the removal of the assembly.

Mussolini is similar, enjoyed early successes through negotiation and bully tactics, but long term was unable to maintane power base.

Stalin might be a good comparison, but I don't think Bhelen is in his league as far as ruthlessness goes. Although the both did have their chief rival killed....

I dont know why you are using Stalin as a comparison. You do realize Stalin stripped many people of there rights, and forced them to work in factories, so he could produce a powerful military and food for his soldiers but care less about the people?

Bhelen offers more rights to the casteless pushing back the darkspawn, and increases the economy with more surface trade. Big difference.

Yeah, I was going more with the ruthlessness of Stallins rise to power and how he pretty much did the complete opposite of what Lenin intended with the government and its power. 

I was not so much making a long term comparison of their rules, as we don't know specifics of Bhelen's rule just the early broad strokes.

[Archereon]

Here's some food for thought.



If you're a Dwarf, and you pick Harrowmont, and you ask for a boon on behalf of the dwarves, the assembly under Harrowmont names you a paragon, and Harrowmont himself names you his successor. When Harrowmont dies from his poor leadership, the Warden, as a Paragon, is practically a shoe in for Dwarf King.

[RavenousBear]

You can become a Paragon if you sided with Bhelen as well. Being a Paragon does not necessarily make you a choice as the next king when Harrowmont dies.

[Cairsoir]

Who'd want to be King when you already are on higher position than one?



Also, about "Hitler card", I believe it's called Godwin Theory.

http://en.wikipedia....ki/Godwin's_law





Anyways, I believe Bhelen is the "good" choice. Of course, good as a word is irrevelant as both rulers are dirty and will use methods not usually accepted. Bhelen, though, will end up being reformist, while Harrowmont just isolates dwarves some more. Of course, as a person Bhelen is more ruthless and so on, but sometimes leader has to be ruthless and tyrannical. At least in fantasy world.

[Lantrov]

I'd say Harrowmont is the more evil choice compared to Bhelen. Harrowmont may not show himself as cunning or ruthless as Bhelen on the surface, but I consider that poisoned lady whot took the wrong glass which was meant for Bhelen in his palace a product of one of Harrowmont's plot to take power.

In addition to that, I don't rightly know if Bhelen did kill his father or if Harrowmont did, according to Vartag, Bhelen was kept from his father as he lay dying. I'm coming to the conclusion that Harrowmont killed Endrin and blamed Bhelen of poisoning him; makes it more believable since we all know Bhelen had a hand in getting rid of his brothers.

[Gill Kaiser]

Bhelen is a benevolent dictator. He's Lawful Evil, but in a good way. Harrowmont is a pretty nice guy, but as a ruler he's the worst kind of Lawful Neutral.

[AlgolagniaVolcae]

Thalorin1919 wrote...

And also, am I the only one that declared Bhelen king on my dwarf noble?

Nope on all subsequent playthroughs I pick him as king even with a dwarven noble character because he's clearly the better leader. If he wants the throne he can have it, my characters certainly don't want it.

I'd rather join the Legion, at least they press the darkspawn all the time. Surfacers, and city dwarves merely let them retreat and become a threat again instead of pressing their advantage following a blight.

[RavenousBear]

I am not so convinced that Bhelen is the "best" choice. Sure, the casteless get more rights and privileges, but only if they join the army, which probably makes them cannon fodder against the Darkspawn. According to npcs after Bhelen kills Harrowmont, he starts rounding up those who "oppose" him and executes them. I do not know whom that includes, but I would not be shocked if there was collateral damage or he just flat wipe out entire noble families.





As for the Legion, they are the closest warrior group to the Gray Wardens. They take whomever they can find, casteless, warriors, glory seekers, etc and they fight Darkspawn until death. I have a lot of respect for them because they do it without caring what others think.

[Kinghaplo]

Elemental_805 wrote...

I think a Dwarvin noble should be able to become king and use the golems to take over all of Fereldon.

I'm with you. Seeing how a Pharagon can make a King who should be able to become one if you are a noble. Bhelen had the carta kill your FAMILY and set it up so it looked like you did it! This is the only part where DAO droped the ball when it comes to letting you choose how things go. Everywhere else in DAO there is more then two ways to get things done.....other then the mages but with them I'm not sure what else you could have wanted to do. I really hope in DAI the let you make some big changes as to how thing are done with the dwarves.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Kinghaplo wrote...

Elemental_805 wrote...

I think a Dwarvin noble should be able to become king and use the golems to take over all of Fereldon.

I'm with you. Seeing how a Pharagon can make a King who should be able to become one if you are a noble. Bhelen had the carta kill your FAMILY and set it up so it looked like you did it! This is the only part where DAO droped the ball when it comes to letting you choose how things go. Everywhere else in DAO there is more then two ways to get things done.....other then the mages but with them I'm not sure what else you could have wanted to do. I really hope in DAI the let you make some big changes as to how thing are done with the dwarves.

There are people who complain that you can't side with Uldred. That just strikes me as something that A: You're only going to see in a tabletop game and that B: the GM would feel obliged to ask if you're sure you want to do that first because C: You will then be barricaded into the Tower by the Templars until more of them arrive.