253 réponses à ce sujet

[Andorfiend]

I just bought DA:O. I'm really enjoying it (although the loading times are long enough to make me think I should spend them productively, by learning another language for example.) But I'm fairly well convinced I could conquer Ferelden with a pack of cub scouts. None of these people seem to have the tactical sense of George Custer.

I'm speaking only having seen the battle of Ostramar and the preparations for the defense of Redcliff, but Yikes! These people seem to have no clue to the tactical value of a wall! (Except the Darkspawn. They use them against me. *facepalm*)

It's a minor gripe in a fantasy game I suppose, but if you've got a brilliant defensive advantage like, oh say, a fortress then leaving it's walls and charging a hundred yards to meet an enemy that's already advancing towards you is really stupid. So is throwing away wardogs against disorganized but aggressive infantry. You use dogs to destroy archers or breakup formations. Darkspawn don't use formations, so you save the dogs to harry flanks, or attack the rear.

[Jace Surana]

Well the thing you have to understand about Ferelden is that the place is almost literally run by barbarians. Even those of the highest status in Ferelden are about ten hairs away from being apes. They're very conservative about their traditions and have animalistic brutal punishments for those that stray away from them. That includes their warfare strategies. Personally, I wouldn't be surprised if they had a division in their armies trained specifically to throw rocks and pebbles at the enemy. I, personally, don't like Ferelden all that much.

[UFORocks]

Watching that battle I was kinda thinking similar things, but hey it makes for a cool battle scene.

[karma_killer09]

if they would have had good strategy in the battle for ostagar they propably would have won, and then you'd be playing a completly different game....

[UFORocks]

Jace Surana wrote...

Well the thing you have to understand about Ferelden is that the place is almost literally run by barbarians. Even those of the highest status in Ferelden are about ten hairs away from being apes. They're very conservative about their traditions and have animalistic brutal punishments for those that stray away from them. That includes their warfare strategies. Personally, I wouldn't be surprised if they had a division in their armies trained specifically to throw rocks and pebbles at the enemy. I, personally, don't like Ferelden all that much.

Don't knock slingers, Alexander used them incredibly effectively, and is considered one of the greatest war strategists of all time.   In fact, not one bit of your post makes any sense...  no offence mind you, but it just doesn't. 

Modifié par UFORocks, 25 février 2010 - 07:24 .

[Dubidox]

And the lack of heavy artillery... I mean you're holed up in a fort and you have no catapults to fling pots of flaming oil down on to the big clump of dumb enemies?



Though the darkspawn were smart enough to bring siege weapons along...

[Jace Surana]

UFORocks wrote...

Jace Surana wrote...

Well the thing you have to understand about Ferelden is that the place is almost literally run by barbarians. Even those of the highest status in Ferelden are about ten hairs away from being apes. They're very conservative about their traditions and have animalistic brutal punishments for those that stray away from them. That includes their warfare strategies. Personally, I wouldn't be surprised if they had a division in their armies trained specifically to throw rocks and pebbles at the enemy. I, personally, don't like Ferelden all that much.

Don't knock slingers, Alexander used them incredibly effectively, and is considered one of the greatest war strategists of all time.   In fact, not one bit of your post makes any sense...  no offence mind you, but it just doesn't. 

I wasn't talking about using slings, I was talking about standing in the front lines and throwing rocks wiith your hands. (I can't believe I actually had to explain that, lol).

Anyway, what about my post doesn't make sense to you?

[Dansayshi]

Its just time constraints really, it takes time to edit it all together. The ferelden line seemed 10 men thick, im just using my imagination lol, say the forces at ostegar totalling 2000, with loghain holding another 1500 ready for a flank attack and about 20k darkspawn, they have endless numbers right?



As nice as an epic battle would be... well, the game hides it well tbh, it sort of scurries you away from all the major engagements lol.

[Feraele]

Andorfiend wrote...

I just bought DA:O. I'm really enjoying it (although the loading times are long enough to make me think I should spend them productively, by learning another language for example.) But I'm fairly well convinced I could conquer Ferelden with a pack of cub scouts. None of these people seem to have the tactical sense of George Custer.

I'm speaking only having seen the battle of Ostramar and the preparations for the defense of Redcliff, but Yikes! These people seem to have no clue to the tactical value of a wall! (Except the Darkspawn. They use them against me. *facepalm*)

It's a minor gripe in a fantasy game I suppose, but if you've got a brilliant defensive advantage like, oh say, a fortress then leaving it's walls and charging a hundred yards to meet an enemy that's already advancing towards you is really stupid. So is throwing away wardogs against disorganized but aggressive infantry. You use dogs to destroy archers or breakup formations. Darkspawn don't use formations, so you save the dogs to harry flanks, or attack the rear.

Then General Andorfiend..you need to send a message to Bioware about that...hehehe

I always wondered why they sacrificed their dogs that way...poor pups.

[UFORocks]

Jace Surana wrote...

UFORocks wrote...

Jace Surana wrote...

Well the thing you have to understand about Ferelden is that the place is almost literally run by barbarians. Even those of the highest status in Ferelden are about ten hairs away from being apes. They're very conservative about their traditions and have animalistic brutal punishments for those that stray away from them. That includes their warfare strategies. Personally, I wouldn't be surprised if they had a division in their armies trained specifically to throw rocks and pebbles at the enemy. I, personally, don't like Ferelden all that much.

Don't knock slingers, Alexander used them incredibly effectively, and is considered one of the greatest war strategists of all time.   In fact, not one bit of your post makes any sense...  no offence mind you, but it just doesn't. 

I wasn't talking about using slings, I was talking about standing in the front lines and throwing rocks wiith your hands. (I can't believe I actually had to explain that, lol).

Anyway, what about my post doesn't make sense to you?

The fact that Fereldens may be barbaric, and overly conservative and superstitious folk has little to do with why they lost the battle of Ostagar.  Nor does it make them idiots.  If anything their strongly held superstitions and beliefs would likely make them even stronger on the battlefield.  It comes down to the poor decisions and strategy of a fool hardy leader that lost the battle.  Not the fact that they pray.  

Granted that it's just a game about a land that doesn't really exist.  But you could apply the same ridiculous statements to any real nation and real people, and it still doesn't make any sense.  

[bzombo]

the op has a point. the walls should have been used to their advantage, but then that lessens the naivete of cailan. still, you'd think duncan would step in and say the plan sucks. cailan basically let loghain create the whole plan, and we know what loghain had planned.....

[Feraele]

bzombo wrote...

the op has a point. the walls should have been used to their advantage, but then that lessens the naivete of cailan. still, you'd think duncan would step in and say the plan sucks. cailan basically let loghain create the whole plan, and we know what loghain had planned.....

Indeed..Loghain was supposed to be the battle hardened veteran...the general even ..maybe.   So him agreeing to this less than logical way of proceeding just makes him even more guilty, because he knew it would fail, pretty much.

[Realmzmaster]

Actually, they did have a good strategy. The plan was developed by Loghain. The same general who quit the field. The strategy was a classic Anvil and Hammer attack.

The idea is that Cailan's forces would draw the enemy in (providing the anvil) and Loghain's forces would attack from the flank (providing the hammer). Unfortunately the Hammer never struck leaving the Anvil to its fate.

You may call it dumb that the king was on the front ranks (which in modern times it is), but it was no uncommon. The king also was the war leader. It would be seen as an act of cowardice for the king not to be on the battlefield leading his troops.

[ervanol]

Ostagar is a ruin. Why isn't it a  well outfitted garrison town that protects Ferelden from the south. What if Orlais makes a flanking march through the Korcari Wilds to attack Ferelden from the south? They don't go through the Korcari Wilds because it is to dangerous. Ok, then we are safe on that side.

The battle of Ostagar and the battle of Redcliff are fought at night. Oh yeah, that happens a lot. On a clear night you can see a whole army. No, darkspawn and undead are creatures of the night, they have good night vision (As a matter of fact, I think this is true. Darkspawn are coming from the Deep Roads, not the brightest place). I suppose it makes sense to fight them at night, because if they cannot see us, how can we have a fight?

Modifié par ervanol, 25 février 2010 - 08:46 .

[pacer90]

Ahem.



1. No cavalry in Dragon Age. Wait what?! You have these massive creatures like Orges and dragons and you can't find one to ride on? Ugh.



2. No mages appear to do anything, let alone unleash something useful against the large Orges of the Darkspawn.



3. Apparently archers can only fire one shot



4. If you're outnumbered you don't charge... you'll give up your flank and be swarmed. (Unless you're Sparta/Alexander the Great but those strategies are different) Stay tight together, shields in the front and hold off the assault.



5. No siege weapons? Why not light the ****ing forest on fire that your enemy was walking through?

[attackfighter]

UFORocks wrote...

Alexander used them incredibly effectively, and is considered one of the greatest war strategists of all time.

Alexander personally lead charges and fought on the front lines, he wasn't very involved in the commanding aspects his army. Also, most of his victories were tactical ones - in fact, if you look at his campaign in a strategic sense it could be considered foolhardy. Finally, his army was only exceptional in it's use of cavalry and phalanx formations; while he (and the Persians) did utilize slingers, they weren't "incredibly effective" as you say they are.

[Realmzmaster]

@Pacer90,



The problem with a fire is that it is uncontrollable. A chnage in the wind and it goes from being friend to foe.

Mages on the fron line are not very practical. They become targets for enemy archers and tend to die quickly without good protection.The mages would only be good at the beginning of the battle to throw the AOE destruction spells. Once the two groups are engaged AOE destruction spells would cause to much friendly fire.

Cavalry would be about as useful as the dogs. Cavalry needs space to maneuver. Given the large army of darkspawn that would be difficult. Also horses are more skittish than dogs when facing the unknown and horses first reaction is to flee being a prey animal. Also horses seem to be scarce in Ferelden. Oxen appear to be the beasts of burden. No one is riding an ox into battle.

The dwarfs have brontos (which do not seem to be great in numbers) and the elves have hallas which are no longer used as mounts, but to pull their aravels. The Hallas would not be use to being ridden.

I agree, that the archers should have been able to get off more than one volley before the enemy cloed.

[attackfighter]

Realmzmaster wrote...

@Pacer90,

The problem with a fire is that it is uncontrollable. A chnage in the wind and it goes from being friend to foe.

The Fereldans were located on a huge stone structure on the outskirts of the forest. How could a forest fire possibly harm them?

Mages on the fron line are not very practical. They become targets for enemy archers and tend to die quickly without good protection.The mages would only be good at the beginning of the battle to throw the AOE destruction spells. Once the two groups are engaged AOE destruction spells would cause to much friendly fire.

And who says they have to be at the front lines? They could place some glyphs down before the battle and cast AOE spells into enemy formations during the battle (with a battalion of soldiers shielding them from the several darkspawn archers). That sounds extremely effective to me.

Cavalry would be about as useful as the dogs. Cavalry needs space to maneuver. Given the large army of darkspawn that would be difficult. Also horses are more skittish than dogs when facing the unknown and horses first reaction is to flee being a prey animal. Also horses seem to be scarce in Ferelden. Oxen appear to be the beasts of burden. No one is riding an ox into battle.

You obviously have no idea what cavalry are used for. The darkspawn were unorganized, it would be practical for groups of cavalry to harass their flanks and stop them from surrounding the Feralden infantry.

I agree, that the archers should have been able to get off more than one volley before the enemy cloed.

I disagree, the Darkspawn emerged from the forest yards away from the Fereldans. A skilled English yeoman could fire 1 arrow every 8 or so seconds and I'm pretty sure the Darkspawn charged the Fereldans in less then 16 seconds.

[UFORocks]

attackfighter wrote...

UFORocks wrote...

Alexander used them incredibly effectively, and is considered one of the greatest war strategists of all time.

Alexander personally lead charges and fought on the front lines, he wasn't very involved in the commanding aspects his army. Also, most of his victories were tactical ones - in fact, if you look at his campaign in a strategic sense it could be considered foolhardy. Finally, his army was only exceptional in it's use of cavalry and phalanx formations; while he (and the Persians) did utilize slingers, they weren't "incredibly effective" as you say they are.

We'll have to agree to disagree, or not.  I'm sure that we both 'know we're right'.  

My point in bringing it up in the first place was as an example that even people throwing rocks and pebbles have been utilized very effectively in military engagements for thousands of years.

[Andorfiend]

ervanol wrote...

Ostagar is a ruin. Why isn't it a  well outfitted garrison town that protects Ferelden from the south. What if Orlais makes a flanking march through the Korcari Wilds to attack Ferelden from the south? They don't go through the Korcari Wilds because it is to dangerous. Ok, then we are safe on that side.

The battle of Ostagar and the battle of Redcliff are fought at night. Oh yeah, that happens a lot. On a clear night you can see a whole army. No, darkspawn and undead are creatures of the night, they have good night vision (As a matter of fact, I think this is true. Darkspawn are coming from the Deep Roads, not the brightest place). I suppose it makes sense to fight them at night, because if they cannot see us, how can we have a fight?

When you're holding a defensive position you don't get to pick the time of battle. The mobile Darkspawn got to pick, and they chose night, for pretty much the reasons you cite.

However as far as the Hammer and Anvil thing... Anvils work better when they are hard. Walls are hard. Shield walls are less hard but still hard. A chargeing line of disordered infantry is not hard, it is porus and easily overwhelmed by larger numbers.

During that fight I looked down from that bridge and saw a vast horde being funneled by geography into a narrow pass. And I looked at the open field they were crossing and thought "Why they hell didn't they put in a mound and ditch with a wooden pallisade?" Why were their archers on the field instead of in the castle 100' above raining down fire?

Yes Loghain's betrayal was what lost the day, but it was hardly needed. Even if they hadn't pulled out the 'Anvil' might still have gotten their asses kicked and the Hammer would only have served to hurry the Darkspawn on their way north.

I mean I get that the Felderens are basically barbarians with shiny pants, but from what I'm told so far by the codex they just beat back the Orlanians in the last 30 years. From the sound of it the Orlanians are basically the french with a similar reliance on heavy cav chevaliers. Infantry doesn't beat heavy Cav with disorganized charges, you beat them with ordered and disciplined pike formations, and good usage of terrain and defensive fortifications. So how has that military skill and tradition been lost already?

[Greyshaft1]

MMMM Ostagar was a ruin and a;thpugh it may be argued that it could be refortified to some degree if only with earth and timber from the nearby woodlands it is doubtful this would do little more than slow the Darkspawn advance. The reason for this assumption is someone has already said they had some form of siege equipment and also the fortress was riddled with tunnels as seen by the tower scene. The main purpose for not using the ruin as a stationary defence point was the battleplan that Loghain devised and did not carry through.



I have to agree that the warhounds and archers were not used effectively as to the mages not too sure on their duties but I think I recall somewhere it said about 1 dozen were at ostagar.

[attackfighter]

UFORocks wrote...

We'll have to agree to disagree, or not.  I'm sure that we both 'know we're right'. 

Name one historian who'd agree with your claim that Alexander was a great war strategist.

My point in bringing it up in the first place was as an example that even people throwing rocks and pebbles have been utilized very effectively in military engagements for thousands of years.

Slings weren't "utilized very effectively" during Alexanders time. They were used by small skirmishing forces and skirmishers are generally unimportant in military engagements. Maybe slingers ruled the battlefield back in 6,000 B.C. but your example is dumb.

Modifié par attackfighter, 25 février 2010 - 10:32 .

[Greyshaft1]

390 BC a young general Iphicrates with a group of peltasts anihalated a spartan Mora changing Greek attitudes to peltasts. The peltasts were armed with slings(probabley lead shot) and javelins.

[Realmzmaster]

attackfighter wrote...

UFORocks wrote...

We'll have to agree to disagree, or not.  I'm sure that we both 'know we're right'. 

Name one historian who'd agree with your claim that Alexander was a great war strategist.

My point in bringing it up in the first place was as an example that even people throwing rocks and pebbles have been utilized very effectively in military engagements for thousands of years.

Slings weren't "utilized very effectively" during Alexanders time. They were used by small skirmishing forces and skirmishers are generally unimportant in military engagements. Maybe slingers ruled the battlefield back in 6,000 B.C. but your example is dumb.

How about historian Jeremy Black in his book "Great Military Leaders and their Campaigns" in regards to Alexander the Great.

Modifié par Realmzmaster, 25 février 2010 - 10:53 .

[Phonantiphon]

I love how it's so real. To all of us.