And not one of them lobbed a single fireball when the archers were firing arrows.......
Ferelden - Land of Idiots
Débuté par
Andorfiend
, févr. 25 2010 07:01
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#52
Posté 26 février 2010 - 03:13
zaim298
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Ahisgewaya wrote...
And not one of them lobbed a single fireball when the archers were firing arrows.......
as I said, cinematics...
#53
Posté 26 février 2010 - 03:15
attackfighter
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Stoomkal wrote...
...
Calling somebody "a retard" does not strengthen your point about having a brilliant tactical mind...
It does make you offensive and childish, though.
Retard is a common term and since I have no illusions that I'm arguing in anything but an internet video game forum I will not mask my wit with formalities and political correctess.
Cry some more, plebian, I care not for your butthurtB)
#54
Posté 26 février 2010 - 03:17
Masticetobbacco
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battle of ostagar was a joke
no mage spells to break up the formations
no traps
making a stand behind a fortress with no room to manouver
not making proper use of archers, and instead send 3 volleys before sending worthless dogs
no cavalry
no pikes
no mage spells to break up the formations
no traps
making a stand behind a fortress with no room to manouver
not making proper use of archers, and instead send 3 volleys before sending worthless dogs
no cavalry
no pikes
#55
Guest_Stoomkal_*
Posté 26 février 2010 - 03:19
Guest_Stoomkal_*
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attackfighter wrote...
Stoomkal wrote...
...
Calling somebody "a retard" does not strengthen your point about having a brilliant tactical mind...
It does make you offensive and childish, though.
Retard is a common term and since I have no illusions that I'm arguing in anything but an internet video game forum I will not mask my wit with formalities and political correctess.
Cry some more, plebian, I care not for your butthurtB)
... ???
Ummm... no.
"Retarded" is a word... "retard" is not.
Describing what you are saying as "wit" is probably about as far fetched as anything else you have said...
#56
Posté 26 février 2010 - 03:31
attackfighter
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Stoomkal wrote...
... ???
Ummm... no.
"Retarded" is a word... "retard" is not.
Describing what you are saying as "wit" is probably about as far fetched as anything else you have said...
sigh retard is a word and you are wasting my time. I bid thee farewell, my verbally challenged friend.
#57
Posté 26 février 2010 - 03:34
zaim298
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again with the cinematics... do you really expect they put everything that happen in the battle in the scene moment?...maybe the archers did fire a 2nd volley during the mabari charge but at that time the scene focused on the mabari charge not archers...and granted that mage firing fireballs at the darkspawns would be epic to watch, doesn't mean it didn't happen during the battle...why would cavs charge head on at a "thick" charging force? it would be better to believe if there are any cavs at all, they're with Loghain...lighting the whole forest and the battlefield on fire is like a two edged sword if you're not careful, but still i can't say it would be a good idea or not at Ostagar. we need to evaluate terrain conditions...
If it is me doing the "lure and flank" strategy, I would put my mages to work on buff and healing for the luring troops, hold together until the right moment comes for the flanking force to join in...
If it is me doing the "lure and flank" strategy, I would put my mages to work on buff and healing for the luring troops, hold together until the right moment comes for the flanking force to join in...
#58
Guest_Stoomkal_*
Posté 26 février 2010 - 03:34
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umm... it *can* be a verb... but not a noun, as you used it.
#59
Posté 26 février 2010 - 04:04
Ahisgewaya
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zaim298 wrote...
again with the cinematics... do you really expect they put everything that happen in the battle in the scene moment?...maybe the archers did fire a 2nd volley during the mabari charge but at that time the scene focused on the mabari charge not archers...and granted that mage firing fireballs at the darkspawns would be epic to watch, doesn't mean it didn't happen during the battle...why would cavs charge head on at a "thick" charging force? it would be better to believe if there are any cavs at all, they're with Loghain...lighting the whole forest and the battlefield on fire is like a two edged sword if you're not careful, but still i can't say it would be a good idea or not at Ostagar. we need to evaluate terrain conditions...
If it is me doing the "lure and flank" strategy, I would put my mages to work on buff and healing for the luring troops, hold together until the right moment comes for the flanking force to join in...
okay, let's say it's just a short part of the battle we see. That still doesn't excuse the fact that the batlle began with a very poor strategy. If you can't see the stupidity of what was done in that cutscene then I really see no point in discussing it with you further as you don't "get it".
#60
Posté 26 février 2010 - 04:15
zaim298
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apart from them not holding the line and charging the darkspawns head on, with the archers not stationed at a vantage point...(and of course something wrong with a force who have no spears or pike at the core)...nope not really...i would appreciate it if you can tell me what is wrong with the the battle...
but i'm not willing to discuss about the flanking strategy they came up with, I really do think it is a good strategy considering their numbers...
but i'm not willing to discuss about the flanking strategy they came up with, I really do think it is a good strategy considering their numbers...
#61
Posté 26 février 2010 - 04:21
krylo
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Just a few things:
On mages: Mage Origin, speaking to Duncan. He states there are SEVEN mages at Ostagar. This is why you don't see them doing much. Seven mages wouldn't be readily noticeable. This combined with the Chantry's insistence that the mages do as little as possible and Loghain's plan to murder Cailin probably left them on the back burner doing little.
On Archers in the castle: There were. You can see many of them lining the bridge to the tower of Ishal. It's ludicrous to think that is the only place they had mages stationed to fire down into the horde.
On larger weapons: There were, just not down in the valley. There are multiple ballista on the bridge to Ishal. Again, it is ludicrous to think these were the only ballista in the battle.
The charge was poorly executed, but it was probably done to make things more cinematic.
You may go back to arguing now if you wish.
On mages: Mage Origin, speaking to Duncan. He states there are SEVEN mages at Ostagar. This is why you don't see them doing much. Seven mages wouldn't be readily noticeable. This combined with the Chantry's insistence that the mages do as little as possible and Loghain's plan to murder Cailin probably left them on the back burner doing little.
On Archers in the castle: There were. You can see many of them lining the bridge to the tower of Ishal. It's ludicrous to think that is the only place they had mages stationed to fire down into the horde.
On larger weapons: There were, just not down in the valley. There are multiple ballista on the bridge to Ishal. Again, it is ludicrous to think these were the only ballista in the battle.
The charge was poorly executed, but it was probably done to make things more cinematic.
You may go back to arguing now if you wish.
#62
Posté 26 février 2010 - 04:27
zaim298
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zaim298 wrote...
i'm thinkin the number of Darkspawns at Ostagar to be around 10k...the defending force have around 500-1000 troops with less than 50 mages...if i recall correctly, there are manned ballistas on the wall when u try to light the beacon...Loghain probably have around 2k-3k troops with him...i'm sure the mages probably cast aoe n damage spells during the battle (but doesn't show in the battle scene) and buffs for the troops...the Darkspawns also have their own mages...if there are any cavs at all, they're probably with Loghain (cavs are effective for flanking and tearing unorganized army)...i have to agree that due to distances between the two army, archers can only get 1 volley at the Darkspawn...i think the Mabaris are used to break the line of the charging darkspawn (so pretty much just fodder)...
so they did manned their towers and walls...the reason why the bulk of the infantry are outside the gate is because of the "draw them in and flank them" battleplan. I'm sure even if the defending forces (including Loghain's) are outnumber 3 to 1, they have a good chance of winning the battle. The key point is 'how many will remain in the end'? Loghain knew it is either total defeat or victory with great loss if he order the flanking...either way, there will be little hope to defend Ferelden IF the said reinforcement from Orlais get past the border and decided to take Ferelden...so he opted for retreat...he was so sure the real threat is not the Darkspawns (he didn't think it was a real Blight) but the Orlesians...
So I do think there is nothing wrong with the battle or their art of wars or whatever you call them...
The things that amaze are the details to the storyline and plot...imagine if Loghain didn't withdraw, lose or win, we would have no chance at all in the Final Battle...so call him whatever we like, but with the troops he had withdraw at Ostagar, it gave the lifeline for Ferelden in the end...
anything else to add?
#63
Posté 26 février 2010 - 04:31
Ahisgewaya
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[quote]krylo wrote...
Just a few things:
On mages: Mage Origin, speaking to Duncan. He states there are SEVEN mages at Ostagar. This is why you don't see them doing much. Seven mages wouldn't be readily noticeable. This combined with the Chantry's insistence that the mages do as little as possible and Loghain's plan to murder Cailin probably left them on the back burner doing little.
Mages are heavy artillery. You notice heavy artillery, trust me. Even if there are only seven of them.
On Archers in the castle: There were. You can see many of them lining the bridge to the tower of Ishal. It's ludicrous to think that is the only place they had mages stationed to fire down into the horde.
This is sound reasoning, but in this case why are they on the ground in the cinematic? I call shenanigans.
On larger weapons: There were, just not down in the valley. There are multiple ballista on the bridge to Ishal. Again, it is ludicrous to think these were the only ballista in the battle.
And again, why are these not in the cutscene? And why does Cailen not use them instead of "releasing the hounds" (which might be the stupidest part of the battle)
The charge was poorly executed, but it was probably done to make things more cinematic.
Probably true, but that still doesn't make me think too highly of Cailen.
You may go back to arguing now if you wish.
I honestly don't, I just get riled up over rediculous things sometimes.
Just a few things:
On mages: Mage Origin, speaking to Duncan. He states there are SEVEN mages at Ostagar. This is why you don't see them doing much. Seven mages wouldn't be readily noticeable. This combined with the Chantry's insistence that the mages do as little as possible and Loghain's plan to murder Cailin probably left them on the back burner doing little.
Mages are heavy artillery. You notice heavy artillery, trust me. Even if there are only seven of them.
On Archers in the castle: There were. You can see many of them lining the bridge to the tower of Ishal. It's ludicrous to think that is the only place they had mages stationed to fire down into the horde.
This is sound reasoning, but in this case why are they on the ground in the cinematic? I call shenanigans.
On larger weapons: There were, just not down in the valley. There are multiple ballista on the bridge to Ishal. Again, it is ludicrous to think these were the only ballista in the battle.
And again, why are these not in the cutscene? And why does Cailen not use them instead of "releasing the hounds" (which might be the stupidest part of the battle)
The charge was poorly executed, but it was probably done to make things more cinematic.
Probably true, but that still doesn't make me think too highly of Cailen.
You may go back to arguing now if you wish.
I honestly don't, I just get riled up over rediculous things sometimes.
Modifié par Ahisgewaya, 26 février 2010 - 04:34 .
#64
Posté 26 février 2010 - 04:32
Ahisgewaya
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zaim298 wrote...
anything else to add?
To you? no, not really.
#65
Posté 26 février 2010 - 04:38
zaim298
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lol...nobody thinks highly of Cailan...he was foolish...agreed on everything but I blame cinematics, as I believe everything that should happen was left out...
Apart from the 8 mages being heavy artillery, well they are but as I said, it might be part of the battleplan for them to concentrate on buffs and healing while waiting for the flanking force... and Cailan is stupid, but Loghain battleplan give the army hope of winning IF they are executed... no matter how you see it, 3 to 1 can be turned by flanking strategy...
Apart from the 8 mages being heavy artillery, well they are but as I said, it might be part of the battleplan for them to concentrate on buffs and healing while waiting for the flanking force... and Cailan is stupid, but Loghain battleplan give the army hope of winning IF they are executed... no matter how you see it, 3 to 1 can be turned by flanking strategy...
#66
Posté 26 février 2010 - 04:39
krylo
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Depends on if they were DPS mages and how powerful they were. Most circle mages don't seem all that powerful.Ahisgewaya wrote...
Mages are heavy artillery. You notice heavy artillery, trust me. Even if there are only seven of them.
Because they were in both places?This is sound reasoning, but in this case why are they on the ground in the cinematic? I call shenanigans.
Because they wouldn't have looked as cool. Obviously.And again, why are these not in the cutscene? And why does Cailen not use them instead of "releasing the hounds" (which might be the stupidest part of the battle)
#67
Posté 26 février 2010 - 04:41
Ahisgewaya
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zaim298 wrote...
lol...nobody thinks highly of Cailan...he was foolish...agreed on everything but I blame cinematics, as I believe everything that should happen was left out...
Apart from the 8 mages being heavy artillery, well they are but as I said, it might be part of the battleplan for them to concentrate on buffs and healing while waiting for the flanking force... and Cailan is stupid, but Loghain battleplan give the army hope of winning IF they are executed... no matter how you see it, 3 to 1 can be turned by flanking strategy...
Well, at least you agree that Cailen is an idiot. And yes, I think they still could have won if Loghain hadn't quit the field.
#68
Guest_Puddi III_*
Posté 26 février 2010 - 05:27
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I like how all of you folks are getting your knickers in a twist about the ******-poor strategy of Cailan's forces, when all I could think of was, "That lightning looks fake," and, "That woman's outfit is atrocious," and, "Those dogs run funny," and, "That smoke is clipping through the Chantry lady's leg."
About cavalry, though, it might be that the reason cavalry isn't seen much is because cavalry isn't as effective in Thedas as one might expect it to be in a non-magical medieval setting. How would a horse react to an Ogre, or a fireball, or any number of other spells? I get the sense that Mabari are only effective because they're bred to be Incredible Hulks of the dog world, each one of them.
About the notion of setting a forest fire, well, I will first admit my ignorance on the subject, but I have to wonder if setting fire to the whole forest around you might consume enough oxygen in the localized area to suffocate your own army. Or if the heat might weaken the integrity of the building structure. Or if doing so might distress Smokey the Bear so severely as to make him turn into a bereskarn out of sheer anger, and then burst through the ground from beneath the mages' feet to personally exact vengeance upon them.
About cavalry, though, it might be that the reason cavalry isn't seen much is because cavalry isn't as effective in Thedas as one might expect it to be in a non-magical medieval setting. How would a horse react to an Ogre, or a fireball, or any number of other spells? I get the sense that Mabari are only effective because they're bred to be Incredible Hulks of the dog world, each one of them.
About the notion of setting a forest fire, well, I will first admit my ignorance on the subject, but I have to wonder if setting fire to the whole forest around you might consume enough oxygen in the localized area to suffocate your own army. Or if the heat might weaken the integrity of the building structure. Or if doing so might distress Smokey the Bear so severely as to make him turn into a bereskarn out of sheer anger, and then burst through the ground from beneath the mages' feet to personally exact vengeance upon them.
Modifié par filaminstrel, 26 février 2010 - 05:28 .
#69
Posté 26 février 2010 - 05:33
zaim298
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filaminstrel wrote...
About the notion of setting a forest fire, well, I will first admit my ignorance on the subject, but I have to wonder if setting fire to the whole forest around you might consume enough oxygen in the localized area to suffocate your own army. Or if the heat might weaken the integrity of the building structure. Or if doing so might distress Smokey the Bear so severely as to make him turn into a bereskarn out of sheer anger, and then burst through the ground from beneath the mages' feet to personally exact vengeance upon them.
that is why fire tactics are two edged sword if not employed properly... and for the cinematics, well some people just want to see things as realistic as possible, and can't blame them really...they pay for their games..
#70
Posté 26 février 2010 - 05:40
Yorick of the Damned
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I believe Ferelden was based off of Medieval England. They didn't have very much tactical sense back then
#71
Posté 26 février 2010 - 05:41
krylo
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I don't think a forest fire would have worked in the wilds.
You can start a good forest fire in a forest during dry season.
It is much more difficult to start a good forest fire in a forest during wet season.
It is near impossible to start a good forest fire in a swamp.
The kocari wilds are mostly swamp.
You can start a good forest fire in a forest during dry season.
It is much more difficult to start a good forest fire in a forest during wet season.
It is near impossible to start a good forest fire in a swamp.
The kocari wilds are mostly swamp.
Modifié par krylo, 26 février 2010 - 05:41 .
#72
Posté 26 février 2010 - 05:46
Sword For Hire
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Let’s see here, under the circumstances things could go differently including a new battle plan. However there are things that need to be accounted for, events that will happen regardless.
Events:
The darkspawn surge up from underneath the tower, and overrun the flank of the allied forces. Darkspawn ogres
could destroy barricades, fortifications and lay wreck to the front lines. Loghain and any force under his command might foil the plan in some way. Lastly the main horde will head their way, clashing into the front lines
Once events are accounted for, time and resources come into play.
Time being roughly 7 – 24 hours or perhaps days
How long were the allied forces gathering there waiting for battle? How much time did they have to prepare? If time is only relevant to when the main character gets there then how much time do you have to fix things before battle?
You have advantages in terrain such as height, and old ruins that can be sort of patched up with wooden barricades and fortifications. If oil is available, perhaps it could be spread along the ground for archers to shoot
with lit arrows. The steep incline which leads to the ruin/makeshift fort can be sealed off with countless lines of
wooden spikes. Blocks of stone if able to be removed from the existing ruins could be used to further slow the advance of the main horde without breaching the structure of the makeshift fort.
Archers could/should be grouped together in units in different positions of hard to reach locations behind allied
defenders, but with intentions of shooting the approaching horde that will flood up the steep incline trying to move past the wooden spike barricades. The archers will also be charged with the duty of lighting the oil/pitch on the ground in front of the wooden spike barricades, so that the ground would be on fire continuously.
The 7 mages that one poster already mentioned could be accounted for by positioning them close behind the allied defenders or 2 mages per archer unit, with intent on slowing the enemy further with spells that limit mobility such as blizzard, grease and earthquake. Mages could if time permits use tempest and inferno and spell combos such as grease fire and storm of the century.
The defenders would be grouped up in two forces
King Cailan:
-Archers
-7 mages
-Ashwarriors & wardogs
-Medium armored infantry
Loghain:
-Heavily armored shock infantry
King Cailan’s infantry would be split up into 3 groups. The first group would form a shield wall behind their
fortifications. The second group would rest and be at the ready to relieve the first when the second was tired. The third group smaller than the other two would patrol the makeshift fortress insuring all was maintained. The third group also includes runners or messengers to deliver info and orders around the makeshift fort.
Loghain for the sake of simplicity would be in his same position waiting for the perfect to time to strike….
Unfortunately king cailan's impetuous behavior cost them their lives and you have to survive and unite a different factions in a torn kingdom before you fight the darkspawn again. Things could have gone differently and the game could still have been made with different quests etc etc, but it wasn't.
Events:
The darkspawn surge up from underneath the tower, and overrun the flank of the allied forces. Darkspawn ogres
could destroy barricades, fortifications and lay wreck to the front lines. Loghain and any force under his command might foil the plan in some way. Lastly the main horde will head their way, clashing into the front lines
Once events are accounted for, time and resources come into play.
Time being roughly 7 – 24 hours or perhaps days
How long were the allied forces gathering there waiting for battle? How much time did they have to prepare? If time is only relevant to when the main character gets there then how much time do you have to fix things before battle?
You have advantages in terrain such as height, and old ruins that can be sort of patched up with wooden barricades and fortifications. If oil is available, perhaps it could be spread along the ground for archers to shoot
with lit arrows. The steep incline which leads to the ruin/makeshift fort can be sealed off with countless lines of
wooden spikes. Blocks of stone if able to be removed from the existing ruins could be used to further slow the advance of the main horde without breaching the structure of the makeshift fort.
Archers could/should be grouped together in units in different positions of hard to reach locations behind allied
defenders, but with intentions of shooting the approaching horde that will flood up the steep incline trying to move past the wooden spike barricades. The archers will also be charged with the duty of lighting the oil/pitch on the ground in front of the wooden spike barricades, so that the ground would be on fire continuously.
The 7 mages that one poster already mentioned could be accounted for by positioning them close behind the allied defenders or 2 mages per archer unit, with intent on slowing the enemy further with spells that limit mobility such as blizzard, grease and earthquake. Mages could if time permits use tempest and inferno and spell combos such as grease fire and storm of the century.
The defenders would be grouped up in two forces
King Cailan:
-Archers
-7 mages
-Ashwarriors & wardogs
-Medium armored infantry
Loghain:
-Heavily armored shock infantry
King Cailan’s infantry would be split up into 3 groups. The first group would form a shield wall behind their
fortifications. The second group would rest and be at the ready to relieve the first when the second was tired. The third group smaller than the other two would patrol the makeshift fortress insuring all was maintained. The third group also includes runners or messengers to deliver info and orders around the makeshift fort.
Loghain for the sake of simplicity would be in his same position waiting for the perfect to time to strike….
Unfortunately king cailan's impetuous behavior cost them their lives and you have to survive and unite a different factions in a torn kingdom before you fight the darkspawn again. Things could have gone differently and the game could still have been made with different quests etc etc, but it wasn't.
Modifié par Sword For Hire, 26 février 2010 - 06:05 .
#73
Posté 26 février 2010 - 05:56
Grace1957
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Just wanted to say everytime I see this topic I giggle.Thank you!
#74
Posté 26 février 2010 - 06:01
zaim298
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Cailan is an idiot, enough said...underestimating the Darkspawns, no proper fortifications and charging the enemies head on instead of holding the line waiting for Loghain (doesn't matter he know or not that Loghain gona quit)
Loghain 'might' turn the tide of battle...alas he have his own reasons including not willing to sacrifice 90% of his troops to win the battle for fear of Ferelden's safety...
No matter how I see it, I blame limited cinematics...and of course Cailan's stupidity and impetousness to why the sbattle scenes are flawed
Loghain 'might' turn the tide of battle...alas he have his own reasons including not willing to sacrifice 90% of his troops to win the battle for fear of Ferelden's safety...
No matter how I see it, I blame limited cinematics...and of course Cailan's stupidity and impetousness to why the sbattle scenes are flawed
#75
Posté 26 février 2010 - 06:04
attackfighter
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filaminstrel wrote...
About the notion of setting a forest fire, well, I will first admit my ignorance on the subject, but I have to wonder if setting fire to the whole forest around you might consume enough oxygen in the localized area to suffocate your own army. Or if the heat might weaken the integrity of the building structure. Or if doing so might distress Smokey the Bear so severely as to make him turn into a bereskarn out of sheer anger, and then burst through the ground from beneath the mages' feet to personally exact vengeance upon them.
Ostagar was high enough that the lack of oxygen and over abundance of carbon monoxide wouldn't of posed a threat. Ostagar was also made out of very big stones, so it wouldn't be weakened by fire (you're thinking of modern cement buildings with steel frames - steel being the vulnerable componant).
Modifié par attackfighter, 26 février 2010 - 06:08 .
