253 réponses à ce sujet

[Bluto Blutarskyx]

pacer90 wrote...


4. If you're outnumbered you don't charge... you'll give up your flank and be swarmed. (Unless you're Sparta/Alexander the Great but those strategies are different) Stay tight together, shields in the front and hold off the assault.

i could be giving bioware too much credit, but i always thought that they intentionally made him charge early to show his incompetance as a tactician.

[Fluffykeith]

Yeah they could lay down Storm of the Century...and kill lots of Darkspawn...for the duration of the spell...



Unless the Horde had some Emmisarrys or similar casters capable of casting disruption type spells, or some AOE of their own...



Or the whole weight of numbers thing comes into play.



It comes down to whether or not the mages can do wide enough AOE, fast enough and damaging enough to kill enough of that massive horde to endure the Darkspawn can't just overwhelm them.

[Realmzmaster]

Winning the Battle of Ostagar would have help to buy time for Ferelden. But unless the ArchDemon appeared at Ostagar that is all it would do.

The other point is that the king's forces had been attacked on three separate days. On each day the number of darkspawn attacking kept increasing. Eventually without reinforcements Ostagar could not be held.

Also the darkspawn were coming out through the tunnel under the Tower of Ishal, which according to RTO originated at the battlefield. Even if Cailan's forces could pull back through the gates the darkspawn were already in the tower. The darkspawn would start coming out of the tower.Any escape route would be cut off unless the forces ventured into the Wilds or fought their way past the Tower.

Cailan relied on Loghain much to his detriment. Loghain had to know about the tunnel and where it exited and entered.

[zaim298]

Mages are definitely comparable to a heavy artillery in an engagement (although range and damage depends on what spell and who cast them and type of artillery your comparing it to...but i go with cannons for range)... having said that, I still can't see how mages can solo a 10k army regardless of battleranks and formations... artillery can break formations and kill a good amount of enemies but they don't win the battle for you... the mages can cast an aoe spell that will probably take out 5-10 darkspawn or a fireball that take out 2-5 darkspawn, but given the cooldown and mana consumption, 8 mages can't do much to any decent army...added to participating heavily on offense they also need to support the defending troops...so if im the one who command the mages i'll definitely go for support... and we have to take consideration of darkspawn mages, they're probably busy neutralizing or debuffing or killing each other... magic is not exclusive to one side, so it will come down to numbers and proper employment for magic to have a large impact on the battle...



and I have to point out that the Darkspawns does have some form intelligence, to wield a weapon and wear armor or even use siege weapons does indicate some form of intelligence...what they lack is unity without Archdemon leading them... did they employ formations? who knows. A contigency of charging infantry units are not unusual, we have no idea whether the whole of darkspawn army are charging blindly at the defenders or not...but sneaking through the tower of Ishal shows that they do employ covert ops and get their hands on the plan of lighting the beacon...



anyway, no one man can win against an entire army of thousands... exhaustion, fatigue, and the possibilities of overwhelmed by numbers of body... you just can't...

[zaim298]

I don't see what Agincourt have anything to do with my comment if your specifically referring to Darkspawn possessing some form of intelligence/no one-man army...

[Moogliepie]

Spoiler free?





Well, I think they hinted that the King was naive, foolish, and eager to rush into battle to gain some personal glory, so strategy wasn't his strong suit. Really, though, that should have looked more like the siege on Helm's Deep.

[The Real Bowser]

Well, I want to post about Loghain, but that would be a spoiler. *Sigh*

[Moogliepie]

zaim298 wrote...

I don't see what Agincourt have anything to do with my comment if your specifically referring to Darkspawn possessing some form of intelligence/no one-man army...

Well if you looked at how the fortress was laid out, and how the Darkspawn were attacking, it seemed like if they placed more ranged attackers on the walls, they could level most of the Horde before they got into melee range. Not sure if Agincourt is a great analogy, because that strategy relied heavily on the superiority of the longbow. 

[zaim298]

Moogliepie wrote...

zaim298 wrote...

I don't see what Agincourt have anything to do with my comment if your specifically referring to Darkspawn possessing some form of intelligence/no one-man army...

Well if you looked at how the fortress was laid out, and how the Darkspawn were attacking, it seemed like if they placed more ranged attackers on the walls, they could level most of the Horde before they got into melee range. Not sure if Agincourt is a great analogy, because that strategy relied heavily on the superiority of the longbow. 

lol...then he shouldn't be quoting that part of my post coz it confused me... of course, any ranged units placed on a vantage positions will be able to volley a sizable ranks of enemies...and I seem to recall saying there are ranged units on the walls on the way to tower of Ishal, the cinematics however show archers to be on the ground as well (i prefer to think of it as technicalities).

if he is referring to my comment about Artillery will not win the battle on their own...i say, proper employment is what win the battle... seeing that one of Artillery main functions in mass warfare is to break enemy formations to thin the line for assault and possible tactical manouvres...

[Gecon]

Andorfiend wrote...

I just bought DA:O. I'm really enjoying it (although the loading times are long enough to make me think I should spend them productively, by learning another language for example.) But I'm fairly well convinced I could conquer Ferelden with a pack of cub scouts. None of these people seem to have the tactical sense of George Custer.
[...]

Unsurprisingly, nobody at Bioware is a military tactican, and neither am I.

I dont have a clue who George Custer is either... yes Wikipedia is just a click away, but without Wiki, I have no clue.

Neither did I have any of these ideas you listed.

So to me, it all didnt mattered.

Besides, I'm pretty sure you're very wrong about Ostagar. Ostagar is nothing but a ruin. There is not much of a defense to be had from the remaining walls.

[Andorfiend]

KorPhaeron11 wrote...

zaim298 wrote...


and I have to point out that the Darkspawns does have some form intelligence, to wield a weapon and wear armor or even use siege weapons does indicate some form of intelligence...what they lack is unity without Archdemon leading them... did they employ formations? who knows. A contigency of charging infantry units are not unusual, we have no idea whether the whole of darkspawn army are charging blindly at the defenders or not...but sneaking through the tower of Ishal shows that they do employ covert ops and get their hands on the plan of lighting the beacon...

anyway, no one man can win against an entire army of thousands... exhaustion, fatigue, and the possibilities of overwhelmed by numbers of body... you just can't...

Agincourt

Read up on it.

Yeah, if you were trying to make a point about archery that was a really weird bit to quote. And I don't think anyone here was claiming the archers were used effectively.

And to be fair what Agincourt mostly proved was that heavy cavalry shouldn't make long uphill charges in slippery mud. Although it was a brilliant example of how young headstrong knights can get their entire armies killed.

[Andorfiend]

Gecon wrote...

I dont have a clue who George Custer is either... yes Wikipedia is just a click away, but without Wiki, I have no clue.

Really? Well fair enough if you're not an American. There's no reason you should. OTOH if you are an American and you've never heard of the battle of Little Bighorn you should go slap your history teacher.

[Spitz6860]

i just think it's weird that when you first met Cailen he said they already won a couple of battles against the darkspawn and they were no threat, but when they saw they were outnumbered all of a sudden in the cutscene he's just like, yeah, let's do it anyway, for fun. if i had the option to kill him on the spot i would have.

[wonko33]

what they need is to build a narrow passageway, put my dwarf in middle with Wynne a few paces behind and I'll win this war not problemo!

[attackfighter]

soteria wrote...

Well, by all means, since this is the internet, no need to be polite and abide by common human courtesies, right? You're anonymous here, so why not act like a douchebag? Insults are, after all, the time-honored tool of the person who knows less than he thinks and has run out of actual arguments.

Also, attackfighter, you clearly don't know very much about grass fires. I mean, first you admitted to not having any personal experience with them, and claimed no one else did either. Then, when someone called your BS your best response was to say, "Well, you're a retard." You're the one that looks like an idiot, here. 

The funny thing is you could actually make some legitimate arguments against a grass fire being dangerous in this case, but you haven't.  Instead, you have pretended that all the grass in the area is the two-inch-high lawn variety.  Apparently you haven't lived in an area with wild grass or seen a grass fire.  I have; they are dangerous.  Also, fires are still dangerous to inhabitants of a stone castle for a variety of reasons.

You must live a very naive and sheltered life if you think the word "retard" is reserved for anything but casual conversation. Indeed, the word by no means infringes on your notions of human courtesy - the vast majority of us humans would view you a fool for even suggesting that. I recommend you take a chill pill, least you become crippled from the vast amounts of butthurt radiating from your post.

As for the topic of grass fires: the grass in the cutscene is clearly no higher than the green on a golf course. Furthermore, the fact that Feralden is based on England would lead all but the most daft of fools to conclude that it's grass is of the short European variety - not the American cowboy grass that has evidently scalded your skin several dozen times during your vain efforts to keep it from burning.

Modifié par attackfighter, 26 février 2010 - 11:40 .

[zaim298]

wonko33 wrote...

what they need is to build a narrow passageway, put my dwarf in middle with Wynne a few paces behind and I'll win this war not problemo!

judging from your avatar, i have no doubts u can kick the s**t out of all the darkspawns lol:lol:

n if u don't mind, can i have the slider setting for your avatar?...he looks so bad ass..

[Dr4g0nj4ck]

Well, here in Kansas we lose several cars a year to grass fires. So many in fact, that most highways have huge signs telling people not to drive in to them (or more specifically, the smoke from them). Here's the thing. In all the time I've been playing, I can't remember ever seeing a sequence involving rain. Ever. So probably dry, and pretty flammable. Taking it a step further, I seem to recall big freaking trees in the middle of the camp at Ostagar. I would concede that a few mages (I think we're saying a total of 7?) SHOULD be able to take care of that pretty quickly with a few well placed Ice spells, but for whatever reason they seem to have no effect on naturally occurring fires. I don't know a whole lot about classical strategists, but I wouldn't have used fire. Too risky.

[wowpwnslol]

Fluffykeith wrote...



yes. There's a reason for that...the trash Darkspawn (the ones with their names in white) were artificially weakened into one-hit-wonders so that the game can put you up against big swarms of them, as I found when I used holy smite on a hurlock emissary and killed all the guys round him. If they were presented the same as the ones you fight before the Landsmeet, the final battle section wouldn't be as much of a walkover.

Actually they were all supposed to be like that. The reason they are not is Bio's very lazy level scaling (imagine fighting level 20 goblins in DnD)... unless you're trying to suggest that there are thousands of level 15+ Darkspawn...?

The huge horde at Ostagar was mostly weak grunts with a few elite units in between (ogres, emissaries), I simply cannot understand why they didn't use mages to just wipe them out - unless lorewise spells like Inferno/Blizzard/Tempest/Death fog etc are only known by very very few, which would then make sense I suppose.

[zaim298]

fire tactics are two edged sword if not careful... and seeing how an idiot Cailan was, i don't think they should be playing with fire... a forest on fire definitely can cause mass suffocation, it wouldn't help if they are in the ruins either... there are lot of things to consider before employing fire tactic... a fire burning underneath you is still a fire...so no point in discussing fire tactics...a devastating ploy no question, but as Dr4g0nj4ck said...too risky...

[zaim298]

wowpwnslol wrote...

Fluffykeith wrote...



yes. There's a reason for that...the trash Darkspawn (the ones with their names in white) were artificially weakened into one-hit-wonders so that the game can put you up against big swarms of them, as I found when I used holy smite on a hurlock emissary and killed all the guys round him. If they were presented the same as the ones you fight before the Landsmeet, the final battle section wouldn't be as much of a walkover.

Actually they were all supposed to be like that. The reason they are not is Bio's very lazy level scaling (imagine fighting level 20 goblins in DnD)... unless you're trying to suggest that there are thousands of level 15+ Darkspawn...?

The huge horde at Ostagar was mostly weak grunts with a few elite units in between (ogres, emissaries), I simply cannot understand why they didn't use mages to just wipe them out - unless lorewise spells like Inferno/Blizzard/Tempest/Death fog etc are only known by very very few, which would then make sense I suppose.

then u have to consider that not all of the 8 mages will be lvl 15 as well...still, casting lots and lots of spells like u mentioned require great deal of mana...

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

People seem to forget, that mages in the setting are not limited to the spells your character or companions can learn in game, that there is far more to magic than the few schools and spells that are employed as part of the game mechanics.



Thus, mages in the battle would probably have access to far greater, and more lethal, spells and magical effects that are not seen or known of by a PC or their companions. There are lots of possibilities, such as rituals where several mages pool their power together for some great rite that unleashes a terrible magical assault on the enemies.



Just because YOUR character, and your companions, are limited due to game play, the type of spells they can cast, does not mean that many other forms of magic do not exist and aren't used. More mages could have probably been a bigger help at Ostagar, but that's really the fault of the Chantry, who won't let more than seven mages out of their cage at a time.



One mage, in the DA gameworld, can do alot of hurt. Because we do not see this does not mean it isn't true. But there are limits to what we can see in game.

[zaim298]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

People seem to forget, that mages in the setting are not limited to the spells your character or companions can learn in game, that there is far more to magic than the few schools and spells that are employed as part of the game mechanics.

Thus, mages in the battle would probably have access to far greater, and more lethal, spells and magical effects that are not seen or known of by a PC or their companions. There are lots of possibilities, such as rituals where several mages pool their power together for some great rite that unleashes a terrible magical assault on the enemies.

Just because YOUR character, and your companions, are limited due to game play, the type of spells they can cast, does not mean that many other forms of magic do not exist and aren't used. More mages could have probably been a bigger help at Ostagar, but that's really the fault of the Chantry, who won't let more than seven mages out of their cage at a time.

One mage, in the DA gameworld, can do alot of hurt. Because we do not see this does not mean it isn't true. But there are limits to what we can see in game.

no one here argue about the ability of a mage... they're definitely a powerhouse...and true about everything you said...but the main debate is what the heck is all the mages doing?what are they asked to do during the battle...to be a heavy artillery?to cast support and healing magic?...

but i'm gona stick with their plans 'lure and flank'...which means, lure the enemy and hold their line until the opportune moment for Loghain to flank them...so i'm sure they'll be busy with support and healing the defenders...what we have to consider is that they don't know Loghain gona quit, so they probably sticked to their orders...

what amazes me is that Cailan order the charge instead of holding their lines...

[Fluffykeith]

I'm highly amused by attackfighters suggestion that his use of "retard" is somehow normal and not vile, ignorant or insulting. Maybe I'm being overly British, or maybe it's my age, but I cant see the use of that word (in the manner that he used it) as anything other than nasty, smallminded and insensitive...not to mention a failure to understand the primary meaning of the word...(to hinder or hold back). Thing is most of the people I know feel the same way, that the use if the word as applied to a person (ie Bob is a retard) is nothing more than a base insult that displays the innate childishness of the speaker and their need for a good hard slap.



It's not big. It's not clever.



By the way, all these allusions to "butthurt", as if your somehow superior, don't help your argument. Please try to engage in the discussion without throwing insults.



I'll admit that the grass as presented is pretty short, although ill point out that even the European variety, if left alone, will happly grow to at least waist height...even in marshy areas as the Korcari wilds are meant to be (I've run through enough oc the stuff in various countries).

Processing requirements may have been at play there. It would be more difficult and processor intensive to render a proper area of wild grass so perhaps Bioware simply chose not too.

Either way, considering it's meant to be a marshland area, it probably wouldn't burn too well, unless the weather had been dry and hot in the preceding weeks.



However, in the event that the grass WAS dry enough to set light to...shoes and boots burn, and most people don't like running towards or over fire, so even if it were only an inch high or in a single line no normal force would bd stupid enough to simply ignore it. And while a grass fire, in the manner that Attackfighter described, would be more psychologically effective than physically dangerous, it's still not something an army would ignore, because if their enemy is happy enough to set fire to the grass then it creates the question of what else they'll set fire to.

[Andorfiend]

Grassfires. Grassfires are dangerous. Burning waist high grass is utterly deadly. Burning short grass is more dangerous than anyone who hasn't experienced it would guess, but certainly isn't going to do much more than inconvenience an army.



During the battle there was a thunderstorm. I recall it raining, but nobody else seems to. In any event it was clearly moist green grass, in a lowlands, next to a swamp. It probably was not going to burn. Having one of those mages casting grease on the field before the battle might have changed the story however, but apparently turing our Hero into a Grey Warden was more important than actually using all those mages to help win the battle. Or something.



Anyway I think we are all in agreement that the battle of Ostagar was fought with all of the tactical brilliance and strategic acumen of a swarm of angry penguins assaulting a pride of lions.