253 réponses à ce sujet

[Fluffykeith]

Here's a question...does anyone know Where those mages were during the battle? Were they actually part of Cailan's forces....or had Loghain stationed them with his forces instead? Just curious

[zaim298]

now that u mentioned it, i don't recall where are all the mages during the cutscene... but Wynne did said they're not gona be with Cailan outside the gate..

[xI extremist Ix]

ervanol wrote...

Ostagar is a ruin. Why isn't it a  well outfitted garrison town that protects Ferelden from the south. What if Orlais makes a flanking march through the Korcari Wilds to attack Ferelden from the south?

Ferelden is poor, and there are no roads in the Korcari Wilds. It would take months to move a small army. Any larger than a few hunded men would be impossible, because there would be no way to supply them. Eventually they would fall pray to the locals or Flemeth.

[soteria]

You must live a very naive and sheltered life if you think the word "retard" is reserved for anything but casual conversation. Indeed, the word by no means infringes on your notions of human courtesy - the vast majority of us humans would view you a fool for even suggesting that. I recommend you take a chill pill, least you become crippled from the vast amounts of butthurt radiating from your post.

This paragraph is all kinds of amusing. First because you just reinforced my point that you're acting like a tool, and second because you seem to think that I was personally insulted by your calling someone else that I don't even know a retard. Additionally, everyone in this thread who has even acknowledged your childish insults has commented that they were just that--childish. I would have thought that would tell you something, but apparently not.

Honestly, the idea that I am "butthurt" by your insulting someone else made me laugh.

As for the topic of grass fires: the grass in the cutscene is clearly no higher than the green on a golf course. Furthermore, the fact that Feralden is based on England would lead all but the most daft of fools to conclude that it's grass is of the short European variety - not the American cowboy grass that has evidently scalded your skin several dozen times during your vain efforts to keep it from burning.

Seeing as how you already admitted you really don't have any experience with grass fires, I feel pretty safe discounting your assessment of the danger. Then there's also the fact that European grass isn't really short by nature. It actually gets pretty tall if there's no livestock or people to keep it short; in fact, I've seen it above waist high. In the cutscene, what grass you can see is more than enough to get any groundskeeper fired. Daft fool that I am, I do know a little bit about grass and grass fires. Oh, and daft fool that you are, you seem to be confused--I've never actually burned myself in a grass fire.

During the battle there was a thunderstorm. I recall it raining, but
nobody else seems to. In any event it was clearly moist green grass, in
a lowlands, next to a swamp. It probably was not going to burn. Having
one of those mages casting grease on the field before the battle might
have changed the story however

Bingo.  I agree.  There was plenty of grass growing, but given the rain and the climate and the season, any fire was unlikely to catch without a lot of effort.

Modifié par soteria, 27 février 2010 - 01:23 .

[Mlai00]

A lot of ppl here seem to assume that any mages on the battlefield must be level 20 like you are at the end of the game when you're ready to defeat an archdemon in personal combat.

More than likely, those mages are of the level 2-5 variety. They'd probably need a ritual just to cast a fireball.

Remember that you, Wynn, and Morrigan are the anomalies of the DAO world -- very powerful magical prodigies. People petitioned Wynn to be First Enchanter, for god's sake. She's not your average battle-mage.

In terms of combat spells, no I don't think "there's lots more spells than were available to you in-game." If there were lots more effective battlefield spells, rest assured our resident genius mages in the party would learn them. Sure, the game wouldn't show esoteric non-combat spells like magical dishwashing scrubs.

[zaim298]

Mlai00 wrote...

A lot of ppl here seem to assume that any mages on the battlefield must be level 20 like you are at the end of the game when you're ready to defeat an archdemon in personal combat.
More than likely, those mages are of the level 2-5 variety. They'd probably need a ritual just to cast a fireball.
Remember that you, Wynn, and Morrigan are the anomalies of the DAO world -- very powerful magical prodigies. People petitioned Wynn to be First Enchanter, for god's sake. She's not your average battle-mage.
In terms of combat spells, no I don't think "there's lots more spells than were available to you in-game." If there were lots more effective battlefield spells, rest assured our resident genius mages in the party would learn them. Sure, the game wouldn't show esoteric non-combat spells like magical dishwashing scrubs.

Mlai00, there are different kind of magics... the ones that we get like Primal, Spirit and Entropy are the the Four Schools of Magic known recognized by the Chantry... there are lots of other ancient and forbidden magics and magics not known or recognized by the Chantry...

Blood Magic is one of the Forbidden Magic... Arcane Warrior is a lost art... Morrigan mentioned there lots of other magics that people don't know... so there is no doubt there exists lots of type of magic and schools...

As for the mages in Ostagar, they're under the Chantry supervisions so it is safe to say they only know the Magic of the Four Schools...

We don't have to assume anything about the lvl of the mages or anyone at all at Ostagar, there probably gonna be a mix of different lvl of units or darkspawns...like IRW, everyone is different...

and remember that BioWare gona introduce new spells... so we can't say for sure how many spells there are in Thedas...

[Dr4g0nj4ck]

Andorfiend wrote...

Anyway I think we are all in agreement that the battle of Ostagar was fought with all of the tactical brilliance and strategic acumen of a swarm of angry penguins assaulting a pride of lions.

It more reminded me of a single kitten fending off a swarm of army ants, but yea something like that.

[attackfighter]

soteria wrote...

You must live a very naive and sheltered life if you think the word "retard" is reserved for anything but casual conversation. Indeed, the word by no means infringes on your notions of human courtesy - the vast majority of us humans would view you a fool for even suggesting that. I recommend you take a chill pill, least you become crippled from the vast amounts of butthurt radiating from your post.

This paragraph is all kinds of amusing. First because you just reinforced my point that you're acting like a tool, and second because you seem to think that I was personally insulted by your calling someone else that I don't even know a retard. Additionally, everyone in this thread who has even acknowledged your childish insults has commented that they were just that--childish. I would have thought that would tell you something, but apparently not.

Honestly, the idea that I am "butthurt" by your insulting someone else made me laugh.

As for the topic of grass fires: the grass in the cutscene is clearly no higher than the green on a golf course. Furthermore, the fact that Feralden is based on England would lead all but the most daft of fools to conclude that it's grass is of the short European variety - not the American cowboy grass that has evidently scalded your skin several dozen times during your vain efforts to keep it from burning.

Seeing as how you already admitted you really don't have any experience with grass fires, I feel pretty safe discounting your assessment of the danger. Then there's also the fact that European grass isn't really short by nature. It actually gets pretty tall if there's no livestock or people to keep it short; in fact, I've seen it above waist high. In the cutscene, what grass you can see is more than enough to get any groundskeeper fired. Daft fool that I am, I do know a little bit about grass and grass fires. Oh, and daft fool that you are, you seem to be confused--I've never actually burned myself in a grass fire.

If you think this entire thread has turned against me then you're even more naive then I had first thought. Moreover you are paranoid; I am not insulting you with childish insults nor have I even made mention of you outside of my replies to your posts - it is clearly you who is seeking to antagonize me. Now tell me, who is more childish: he who casts the stone or he who throws it back (no doubt this anology will fly right over your head, but I can atleast try)?

Also I have studied many grass fires, for I am a park warden and that is my job. The fact that I have never exerienced one is only a testament to my skill and expertise in the matter. I believe it is you who is the inexperienced one, for only the most naive would be burdened with such a fear that you display. Hell, if we were to take your opinion on the matter the earth would be nothing more than a great ball of burning grass:O

[grieferbastard]

They fortified Ostagar in order to secure their supplies and supply line. A safe place to put noncoms and such. They were there to stop the army of Darkspawn from swarming north. A castle is only useful to hold off attack if there's a threat of an army marching out to attack it. As the Darkspawn horde grew by the day (as Duncan said) they needed to do two things:

1) Actually go stop the Darkspawn from just marching past Ostagar on their way north to the Bannorn.

2) Do so quickly, before the Darkspawn horde grew larger.

So they took a tactical gamble and and 'sallied forth' to force the Darkspawn into an engagement. They kept close enough to the walls to take advantage of the highly fortified position for their ballista and archers (who were firing the whole time, remember? You run past them in the first part)  but don't go marching off into the Wilds for some daytime raid - which would have been stupid.

The archers you see fire once seems like armored infantry who are using a single volley of flaming arrows to break the initial Darkspawn charge. Much as Romans did with javelins. It's not actually bad logic or tactics; wardogs have been sent off like that, they're more or less expendable. You don't want them in the middle of your melee because they might eat one of your peeps by accident.

Actually, it's not terrible tactics. They were in a bad situation. They had to stop the Darkspawn from going north, they had to actively gather and destroy an army of insane berserkers with a smaller force before they got north into farm country.

As to the mages, honestly? A fireball is nice but that same mana would see a lot more use keeping your smaller number of soldiers healed in the field. An extra 5 dead genlocks isn't as useful as 10 wounded soldiers being back at full combat effectiveness in 30 seconds. On a battlefiled I'd get a lot more use out of mages healing and directly countering enemy magic than a few fireballs. Glyphs, anti-magic stuff, healing, group-buffs. If you've only got like 10 mages and 5,000 soldiers against 50 Genlock Emessaries and 20,000 zerg-rush enemies that's going to go a lot further.

Ideal tactics? No, but not bad ones.

[zaim298]

That is why, there is nothing wrong with the Ferelden's tactical sense and I disagree with the point of the thread...



Bear in mind we're modernized and possess knowledge of the past... but you can't mix up things in judging what people in the past know and not know... how would you like being called people with no tactical sense by those judging us in the future?...

[Andorfiend]

zaim298 wrote...

That is why, there is nothing wrong with the Ferelden's tactical sense and I disagree with the point of the thread...

Bear in mind we're modernized and possess knowledge of the past... but you can't mix up things in judging what people in the past know and not know... how would you like being called people with no tactical sense by those judging us in the future?...

1) I'm not mocking them for not being familiar with the germ theory of disease, I'm mocking them for using poor tactics as compared to other people at roughly the same tech level. Being modern has nothing to do with it. Modern tactics are not superior to ancient tactics, they are simply better suited to current technology and politics. Trying to fight the Romans with swords using squad based tactics would result in the Romans handing you your ass on a platter.

2) Ferelden isn't the past, it's a fictional world with magical and herbal healing superior to our modern medicine. They have magic that allows them to do things that we can only dream of, but lack some technologies and resources that their closest terrestrial analogues had. I don't recall seeing a single horse in the game so far for example. On the other hand the magically bred Mabari are far more intelligent and trustworthy than the Roman wardogs.

3) If you catch me charging a machine gun bunker with a badminton racket, some guy in the future watching the tape is welcome to tell my ghost that I was using bad tactics. He'll be right.

[Mlai00]

@ Attackfighter:



Ah, you're a park warden. So that's where all the stress-venting and anger projection is coming from. Hail, warden!

[zaim298]

So what did you see in the cutscene that bother you so much to say theirs is bad tactics? pardon my english, as english is my 2nd tongue...



other than the 'Cailan is an idiot' factor, some archers on the rampart during the cutscene (cinematics and technicalities), I can't seem to figure out the Fereldens are idiots coz of their tactics...if you wana blame anyone at all, 1) BioWare for not considering all the finer details in the cutscene for the battle and not being realistic with their cinematics, 2) Cailan, for his idiotic order to charge... if i recall correctly this is what he said 'so we draw them and hold them and Loghain flank them' or something to that effect...



and for you charging the gun bunker, I say your using a bad tactic but that doesn't grant me the rights to say everyone of your time or your world to be idiot coz u did the charging...



so, tell me why should we agree to your thread title?

[attackfighter]

Stoomkal wrote...

As I said earlier, the word "retard" is a verb, not a noun.

Any use of it as a noun is clearly marked "slang" - you may as well argue that "shizzle" is a real word.

And any argument that this is fine in a common or social context is dubious at best.

And all this argument about fire and flaming is now highly ironic...

...

Just dont feed it...

No one uses shizzle, that's a dumb strawman argument. A better comparison would be between the word retard and the slang use of "cool". Oh and FYI the Mirriam-Webster dictionary even recognises the word. Try educating yourself on these matters before making a fool of yourself.

P.S. you said retard first, so your whole tirade is pointless regardless of how wrong you are.

[Jace Surana]

UFORocks wrote...

Jace Surana wrote...

UFORocks wrote...

Jace Surana wrote...

Well the thing you have to understand about Ferelden is that the place is almost literally run by barbarians. Even those of the highest status in Ferelden are about ten hairs away from being apes. They're very conservative about their traditions and have animalistic brutal punishments for those that stray away from them. That includes their warfare strategies. Personally, I wouldn't be surprised if they had a division in their armies trained specifically to throw rocks and pebbles at the enemy. I, personally, don't like Ferelden all that much.

Don't knock slingers, Alexander used them incredibly effectively, and is considered one of the greatest war strategists of all time.   In fact, not one bit of your post makes any sense...  no offence mind you, but it just doesn't. 

I wasn't talking about using slings, I was talking about standing in the front lines and throwing rocks wiith your hands. (I can't believe I actually had to explain that, lol).

Anyway, what about my post doesn't make sense to you?

The fact that Fereldens may be barbaric, and overly conservative and superstitious folk has little to do with why they lost the battle of Ostagar.  Nor does it make them idiots.  If anything their strongly held superstitions and beliefs would likely make them even stronger on the battlefield.  It comes down to the poor decisions and strategy of a fool hardy leader that lost the battle.  Not the fact that they pray.  

Granted that it's just a game about a land that doesn't really exist.  But you could apply the same ridiculous statements to any real nation and real people, and it still doesn't make any sense.  

Nothing ridiculous at all if you actually take the time to use at least a tiny bit of brain power and think about my statement.

There are many idiotic ways the morons of Ferelden got it wrong. Such as using dogs to head the charge instead of keeping them back for flankwork. Or using nothing but swords, arrows and magic because they were too damn caveman-like stupid to use any contraption (like the "sling" you mentioned, remember?) There are many ways evenj off the battlefield the people of Ferelden show how backwoods and ignorant they are, and it costs them.

[Realmzmaster]

As far as the mages are concerned they are limited to the four schools of magic (since they are Circle mages). I could tell you about the first enchanter's level, spell selection and lines, but this is the no spoiler section. So as far as Origins is concerned there are no other spells or schools available to Circle mages (except blood magic). Awakening will introduce new spells, but it has no bearing on Origins.
When you go into the tower depending on your class one of the mages is with you. (You can see his spells guess what spell is not among them. Also no AOE or CC spells) So at best there can only be six mages available (if there are seven) for the battle and they are not on the front lines. We also know one of the six mages could not cast certain spells, which leaves us with five who might be able to cast AOE or CC spells. 

Modifié par Realmzmaster, 27 février 2010 - 05:22 .

[Andorfiend]

zaim298 wrote...

So what did you see in the cutscene that bother you so much to say theirs is bad tactics? pardon my english, as english is my 2nd tongue...

other than the 'Cailan is an idiot' factor, some archers on the rampart during the cutscene (cinematics and technicalities), I can't seem to figure out the Fereldens are idiots coz of their tactics...if you wana blame anyone at all, 1) BioWare for not considering all the finer details in the cutscene for the battle and not being realistic with their cinematics, 2) Cailan, for his idiotic order to charge... if i recall correctly this is what he said 'so we draw them and hold them and Loghain flank them' or something to that effect...

and for you charging the gun bunker, I say your using a bad tactic but that doesn't grant me the rights to say everyone of your time or your world to be idiot coz u did the charging...

so, tell me why should we agree to your thread title?

Ah I see. the thread title isn't an argument or declaration. It's just a tounge in cheek bit of humour to start the thread. However it remains that I have yet to see anyone in Ferelden use decent tactics. Except the Darkspawn. This is not actully to say that no one in Ferelden could pour ****** out of a boot if the instructions were written on the heel, it's just saying that in the 2 battles I have seen thus far the use of tactics was ... poor.

It's not intended as an attack on the game or Bioware. I like both very much. As has been commented a lot of it is based on the cinematic which isn't even internally consistent. I just saw it again and you watch the archers volley and they are clearly standing on the right flank of the defenders in front of the pallisade (why they would put archers in front of a pallisade is anyones guess.) Yet the next shot is them releasing the Mabari and they show that exact same section of wall 10 seconds later with no archers. So I don't even know what to conclude from that.

[zaim298]

Andorfiend wrote...

zaim298 wrote...

So what did you see in the cutscene that bother you so much to say theirs is bad tactics? pardon my english, as english is my 2nd tongue...

other than the 'Cailan is an idiot' factor, some archers on the rampart during the cutscene (cinematics and technicalities), I can't seem to figure out the Fereldens are idiots coz of their tactics...if you wana blame anyone at all, 1) BioWare for not considering all the finer details in the cutscene for the battle and not being realistic with their cinematics, 2) Cailan, for his idiotic order to charge... if i recall correctly this is what he said 'so we draw them and hold them and Loghain flank them' or something to that effect...

and for you charging the gun bunker, I say your using a bad tactic but that doesn't grant me the rights to say everyone of your time or your world to be idiot coz u did the charging...

so, tell me why should we agree to your thread title?

Ah I see. the thread title isn't an argument or declaration. It's just a tounge in cheek bit of humour to start the thread. However it remains that I have yet to see anyone in Ferelden use decent tactics. Except the Darkspawn. This is not actully to say that no one in Ferelden could pour ****** out of a boot if the instructions were written on the heel, it's just saying that in the 2 battles I have seen thus far the use of tactics was ... poor.

It's not intended as an attack on the game or Bioware. I like both very much. As has been commented a lot of it is based on the cinematic which isn't even internally consistent. I just saw it again and you watch the archers volley and they are clearly standing on the right flank of the defenders in front of the pallisade (why they would put archers in front of a pallisade is anyones guess.) Yet the next shot is them releasing the Mabari and they show that exact same section of wall 10 seconds later with no archers. So I don't even know what to conclude from that.

i apologise if i seem to attack you or anything, i have no intention of doing it... i agree with the cinematics being ridiculously lacking realism... then again it is a game, and i dont really bother myself with the finer details or realism of cutscenes... i prefer to think 'technicalities in cinematics' as excuses for such things... but given that, I'll stick with whatever info they give us in-game... which is 'lure and flank' or 'anvil and hammer' plan, which i really think is a good tactic to employ in such situation... there are no sign of cavalries... mages stick with 'lure and flank' plan and cast only buffs and healing instead of fireballs etc... i do think the mabari as fodder to break the momentum of the charging enemy.. archers on walls and ground, cinematics for me.... i myself believe there are fortifications and contraptions employed, but again cinematics... and the only thing that baffle me is there are no spears or pikes...

so the only thing that is stupid in Ostagar for me is Cailan head on charge instead of holding the line...as for Loghain plan, reasons and motivations, i really wish i can discuss about this but "no spoilers allowed'. I do believe that Loghain would join in if things are different...

anyway, my previous post about the judging is not directed to you if you know what i mean...but i do dislike the title of your topic and forgive me if i mistaken it as a declaration...

[soteria]

If you think this entire thread has turned against me then you're even more naive then I had first thought. Moreover you are paranoid; I am not insulting you with childish insults nor have I even made mention of you outside of my replies to your posts - it is clearly you who is seeking to antagonize me. Now tell me, who is more childish: he who casts the stone or he who throws it back (no doubt this anology will fly right over your head, but I can atleast try)?



Also I have studied many grass fires, for I am a park warden and that is my job. The fact that I have never exerienced one is only a testament to my skill and expertise in the matter. I believe it is you who is the inexperienced one, for only the most naive would be burdened with such a fear that you display. Hell, if we were to take your opinion on the matter the earth would be nothing more than a great ball of burning grass

You made me laugh again. I'm not even sure how you come up with this stuff... park ranger indeed. I doubt you're even out of high school.



I'll just do like the rest of the people in this thread and start ignoring you. Your posts are funny, but they lack things that I consider crucial to an intelligent discussion--actual arguments, courtesy, and intelligence.

[Joush]

Ostogar only makes sense in the context of -wanting- to lure the darkspawn into a decive battle. They had to meet them beyond the fortifcations in order to get the darkspawn to attack, rather then just settleing into a seige or trying to bypass Ostogar and attack deeper into Fareldan.

Of course, the tactics were questionble, something of a plot point (The king was inexperinced and over eager. Logane was -trying- to lose the battle) but even a novice should have noticed that the field offered nearly no advantage and there was a great defensive postion -right there- in the form of the ruins of Ostagar.

There's no reason the other experinced soliders diden't speak up about how foolish fighting darkspawn by chargeing them on an open field is, however. With the choice of the field and time to prepare at least crude earthworks and fortifcations should have been the order of the day.

[attackfighter]

soteria wrote...



You made me laugh again. I'm not even sure how you come up with this stuff... park ranger indeed. I doubt you're even out of high school.

I'll just do like the rest of the people in this thread and start ignoring you. Your posts are funny, but they lack things that I consider crucial to an intelligent discussion--actual arguments, courtesy, and intelligence.

Perhaps the same could be said about you.

[ModerateOsprey]

There is no doubt the battle was a complete mess, bad planning, treachery and an inexperienced king with his head in fantasy poetry.

Seemed to me during the cut scenes there was this expression on many faces of not just fear, but also resignation - like they knew it was a disorganised mess, but they had to follow orders - wouldn't be the first battle to be like this.

The darkspawn commander seemed to have its head together - charge in with virtually unlimited suicide troops as well as having the nounce to get an large infiltration team together to completely occupy and barricade the tower behind the lines.

---
O and BTW, calling someone a retard in a debate over a fictional work is no way near normal in a civilised society. You should be ashamed of yourself and have the courage to apologise.

Modifié par ModerateOsprey, 27 février 2010 - 11:19 .

[Lysaimachus]

What I think a lot of you are forgetting is that strategy and tactics are subjugated to politics; this is something I think Bioware did right and realistically.



Notwithstanding Loghain's treachery there was reason to fight a decisive battle - the Fereldans wanted to win the war before the Orlesians showed up (for political reasons). To do this they needed to fight a pitched and decisive battle in order to annihilate the darkspawn: simply holding a defensive position (albeit a good one if they had stayed put in Ostagar) would not have achieved this. Had the Fereldans fought defensively from their ramparts the Darkspawn could have simply retreated back into the Wilds to recoup their numbers. Since the Fereldan army didn’t have a large Cavalry component, and Darkspawn don’t seem like the kind of creatures to route easily, defeating the Darkspawn army while it routes after a pitched battle probably wouldn’t have seemed feasible. The only option left then was to surround the Darkspawn and destroy them that way. Loghain’s plan would have achieved this.



Added to this there was Cailan's impetuousness, which is very realistic for someone in his position: he was facing a lot of pressure to do *something*, and considering he was the son of a hero him sitting there safe in his fortress while waiting for the Orelsians probably would have left him weak politically. If you want a historical analogue look to the early battles between Hannibal and the Romans: old time generals like Fabius Maximus knew that the Romans were not ready to meet Hannibal's army in the field, so he delayed engaging Hannibal. But his delaying actions left him dead politically, he was seen as a coward and an embarrassment to Roman prowess, and so the Romans elected new younger leaders to actually engage Hannibal. The result was a slaughter many times worse than that of Ostagar. Was this strategically unsound? Sure. But the politics of the day demanded it.



The same was true in Bioware's Ferelden. They NEEDED to fight a decisive battle and their plan, while not brilliant, did have a chance of working and at the same time satisfying political needs. It was therefore a reasonable course of action (though not the best course of action).

Modifié par Lysaimachus, 27 février 2010 - 12:55 .

[Mlai00]

No, the mabari weren't used wisely. The strength of intelligent wardogs is their cavalry-like speed and even greater maneuverability, and thus their unparalleled ability to flank and harass. NOT in charging their unarmored bodies head-on into the enemy front ranks. Just study sheepdogs in action.

And I agree that Fereldan morale was terrible in that battle. You notice it in both the Ostagar overheard-conversations, and in the cutscene. When soldiers are all pumped up, and inspired by their leader, their faces don't look like that. Caillan had no finger on his army's morale, and he didn't care.

No general can get away with ordering a mass retreat the way Loghain did in the story, unless he's LOGHAIN MAC TYR, and the person he's abandoning is a commander in name only. If it was any other situation, the mass confusion and crumbling of morale would ripple through the entire army, and there would be no army to make it back to Denerim, as the victorious Darkspawn will hunt down the disorganized routing Fereldan army from the Wilds all the way up the Imperial Highway.

So basically... Caillan wasn't just betrayed. He's also a poor military leader for Fereldan. He did have some progressive ideas, though... and could still have been a good king if he was loyally supported.

Perhaps the same could be said about you.

Not really, Warden. It's mostly just you. ModerateOsprey said it succinctly.

But that's okay. Nobody knows who you are on the internet.