253 réponses à ce sujet

[soteria]

Lysaimachus wrote...

What I think a lot of you are forgetting is that strategy and tactics are subjugated to politics; this is something I think Bioware did right and realistically.



Notwithstanding Loghain's treachery there was reason to fight a decisive battle - the Fereldans wanted to win the war before the Orlesians showed up (for political reasons). To do this they needed to fight a pitched and decisive battle in order to annihilate the darkspawn: simply holding a defensive position (albeit a good one if they had stayed put in Ostagar) would not have achieved this. Had the Fereldans fought defensively from their ramparts the Darkspawn could have simply retreated back into the Wilds to recoup their numbers. Since the Fereldan army didn’t have a large Cavalry component, and Darkspawn don’t seem like the kind of creatures to route easily, defeating the Darkspawn army while it routes after a pitched battle probably wouldn’t have seemed feasible. The only option left then was to surround the Darkspawn and destroy them that way. Loghain’s plan would have achieved this.



Added to this there was Cailan's impetuousness, which is very realistic for someone in his position: he was facing a lot of pressure to do *something*, and considering he was the son of a hero him sitting there safe in his fortress while waiting for the Orelsians probably would have left him weak politically. If you want a historical analogue look to the early battles between Hannibal and the Romans: old time generals like Fabius Maximus knew that the Romans were not ready to meet Hannibal's army in the field, so he delayed engaging Hannibal. But his delaying actions left him dead politically, he was seen as a coward and an embarrassment to Roman prowess, and so the Romans elected new younger leaders to actually engage Hannibal. The result was a slaughter many times worse than that of Ostagar. Was this strategically unsound? Sure. But the politics of the day demanded it.



The same was true in Bioware's Ferelden. They NEEDED to fight a decisive battle and their plan, while not brilliant, did have a chance of working and at the same time satisfying political needs. It was therefore a reasonable course of action (though not the best course of action).

Interesting analysis.

One other thing I think people should consider before armchair generaling is the amount of information we simply don't have.  How many darkspawn did they expect, and what were the relative sizes of the forces?  How many troops did Loghain have compared to Cailan?  Where was Loghain in relation to the battlefield, anyway?  When did they send the signal for Loghain to attack, and what were the conditions for the signal?  Without knowing more, I think it's hard to assess exactly what was wrong with the overall plan.

[Moogliepie]

Andorfiend wrote...

Grassfires. Grassfires are dangerous. Burning waist high grass is utterly deadly. Burning short grass is more dangerous than anyone who hasn't experienced it would guess, but certainly isn't going to do much more than inconvenience an army.

During the battle there was a thunderstorm. I recall it raining, but nobody else seems to. In any event it was clearly moist green grass, in a lowlands, next to a swamp. It probably was not going to burn. Having one of those mages casting grease on the field before the battle might have changed the story however, but apparently turing our Hero into a Grey Warden was more important than actually using all those mages to help win the battle. Or something.

Anyway I think we are all in agreement that the battle of Ostagar was fought with all of the tactical brilliance and strategic acumen of a swarm of angry penguins assaulting a pride of lions.

But this is the magically enchanted grass of Ferelden. If it catches fire, the worst thing that happens is you get the munchies and start watching Spongebob Squarepants.

[Gabey5]

i agree..ostagar was easily defesnsible charging in was silly..

[MercifulBoss]

attackfighter wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

@attackfighter,

If you are going to quote me do it right I said the cavalry would be as useful as the dogs. In close quarters the cavalry becomes less effective. Also I will have to pull the book of my self to find the direct quote and since I am at work I cannot. No I did not google anything and if you go to amazon and type in Jeremy Black you can find the book and yes it is on his website.
Also Cailin's army was in the front of the giant stone castle not on it. Only certain troops were on the castle. If the army was on the castle how could they charge?
Have you ever tried to stomp out a grass fire? Try it sometime see how easy it is.
You were the one that mentioned enemy formations. Go back and read your post you stated the mages could throw AOE spells at the enemy formation.

I thought it required some form of intelligence to use a tool. Maybe I am wrong. And if I am not wrong darkspawn use magic, bows/arrows. I do believe it requires intelligence.

Also I did not change the subject on cavalry. In my ealier post I noted there very few horses in Ferelden. I also mentioned the brontos and hallas. So it ws in reference to that post I said no horses no cavalry.

They still had time to send out the dogs which means they had time to fire a volley.

- The cavalry wouldn't have had to engage in close quarters. Due to the loose and unorganized formations of the darkspawn, it would be easy for cavalry to simply harass their flanks with hit and run techniques.
- The castle was large enough to fit the entire Fereldan army. Go look at the cutscene again, the Fereldan army takes up a space as wide a bridge and only 6 ranks deep (at most).
- No I have never stomped out a grass fire, and neither have you. It's irrelevant anyways, as it's common sense that inch high flaming grass presents no danger to anything larger than a mouse.
- You implied the darkspawn were in an organized formation, while I pointed out that they weren't. Don't play semantics.

- The cavalry would have to engage in close quarters. The size of the battle field was small, furthermore, the Darkspawn army is not a conventional human army. They have beasts of immense strength that cavalry would not effect, unless the cavalry was in constant motion. Impossible in such a small field. To block the harrassment of flanks, the darkspawn simply place their ogres in the flanks, with pikemen behind them. The cavalry is dead.

- The castle was large enough, but in the places were the player was located, it was impossible to effectively defend due to the wide open areas of the courtyards.

- Disorganized formations are actually quite effective. Archers do not significantly effect casualty rates. And since the Darkspawn knew the armies of Fereldan had no cavalry oranything significant with which to change the course of the battle. Marshal Suvorov, used disorganized formations of skirmeshers to devastating effect, to disrupt troop movement, since the troops could not hit them.

- Alexander did not use battlefield tactics that differed significantly from the military doctrine of the time. However, the overall strategy of the campaign was his.

Therefore, you are incorrect.

[wonko33]

All I have to say is that the game would have been pretty boring if Cailan would have been smarter and stopped the hoard. So for one, I am glad he was a douche. (can I use douche? Is this insulting to people who need to clean their private parts?)

[Mlai00]

Well, if you feel that it's insulting to use Cailan to cleanse your private parts... then yes it's an insult?

[speedingpullet]

I only came in at page 7 to tell you I LOLed a lot at the title of this thread.



Carry on. That is all.

[Andorfiend]

Lysaimachus wrote...

What I think a lot of you are forgetting is that strategy and tactics are subjugated to politics; this is something I think Bioware did right and realistically.

Speaking of politics here are two things I cannot for the life of me figure out. Now I haven't finished the game so please don't spoiler me if there is answer coming, but ....

Why in God's name did Loghain declare himself Regent and why did Queen Anora let him? According to the Codex she was the real ruler anyway both well respected and immensely popular and given that she's been married for 5 years she has to be in her majority. So I don't see any legal need or even option for declaring a regency given that she was a ruling queen and not a queen-consort or minor. Nor do I see what Loghain stood to gain from it. He was already her father and the most trusted warhero and general in the land, he could surely have had her appoint him to any advisory position he wanted or asked to be declared Warchief, heck I doubt he could have gotten out of it even if he didn't want the duty. All declaring himself regent did was weaken his daughters postion and spark a civil war from people who would have followed him into hell if he had just let the Queen keep ruling. And I don't know why Anora put up with it, she is not some weak and useless maiden, she was a ruling queen and the true power in Ferelden. Even if he was her dad that's no reason to meekly bow her head and say 'Yes Papa."

I dunno, I suspect there is some spoilery reason I have yet to learn. In fact I expect one because if there isn't some kind of weird influence/power game going on then everyone is acting very strangely.

[Mlai00]

Q: Why in God's name did Loghain declare himself Regent? Nor do I see what Loghain stood to gain from it.

A: Yes there is a spoiler.



Q: And I don't know why Anora put up with it, she is not some weak and useless maiden.

A: Yes that is also addressed later in the game.

[Andorfiend]

Mlai00 wrote...

Q: Why in God's name did Loghain declare himself Regent? Nor do I see what Loghain stood to gain from it.
A: Yes there is a spoiler.

Q: And I don't know why Anora put up with it, she is not some weak and useless maiden.
A: Yes that is also addressed later in the game.

Sweet, well then I'll stop asking for people to spoiler me lest someone do it.

That's a really cute avatar BTW.

[Mlai00]

That's a really cute avatar BTW.

She has a voice and personality to match. I love this female dwarven commoner rogue so much.

A true credit to Bioware/Gaider's artform of RPG dialogue tree writing.



Omigod, after pestering Sten for 5 whole minutes and being told "No" like 10 times... he gave me +2 Approval?!!

Sten likes me, W00T~!!

[Sloth Of Doom]

Mlai00 wrote...

That's a really cute avatar BTW.

She has a voice and personality to match. I love this female dwarven commoner rogue so much.
A true credit to Bioware/Gaider's artform of RPG dialogue tree writing.

Omigod, after pestering Sten for 5 whole minutes and being told "No" like 10 times... he gave me +2 Approval?!!
Sten likes me, W00T~!!

Sten likes anyone with half a brain, because he is cool.  Morrigan on the other hand, needs to be killed and eaten by Sten, just on general principal

[attackfighter]

MercifulBoss wrote...

attackfighter wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

@attackfighter,

If you are going to quote me do it right I said the cavalry would be as useful as the dogs. In close quarters the cavalry becomes less effective. Also I will have to pull the book of my self to find the direct quote and since I am at work I cannot. No I did not google anything and if you go to amazon and type in Jeremy Black you can find the book and yes it is on his website.
Also Cailin's army was in the front of the giant stone castle not on it. Only certain troops were on the castle. If the army was on the castle how could they charge?
Have you ever tried to stomp out a grass fire? Try it sometime see how easy it is.
You were the one that mentioned enemy formations. Go back and read your post you stated the mages could throw AOE spells at the enemy formation.

I thought it required some form of intelligence to use a tool. Maybe I am wrong. And if I am not wrong darkspawn use magic, bows/arrows. I do believe it requires intelligence.

Also I did not change the subject on cavalry. In my ealier post I noted there very few horses in Ferelden. I also mentioned the brontos and hallas. So it ws in reference to that post I said no horses no cavalry.

They still had time to send out the dogs which means they had time to fire a volley.

- The cavalry wouldn't have had to engage in close quarters. Due to the loose and unorganized formations of the darkspawn, it would be easy for cavalry to simply harass their flanks with hit and run techniques.
- The castle was large enough to fit the entire Fereldan army. Go look at the cutscene again, the Fereldan army takes up a space as wide a bridge and only 6 ranks deep (at most).
- No I have never stomped out a grass fire, and neither have you. It's irrelevant anyways, as it's common sense that inch high flaming grass presents no danger to anything larger than a mouse.
- You implied the darkspawn were in an organized formation, while I pointed out that they weren't. Don't play semantics.

- The cavalry would have to engage in close quarters. The size of the battle field was small, furthermore, the Darkspawn army is not a conventional human army. They have beasts of immense strength that cavalry would not effect, unless the cavalry was in constant motion. Impossible in such a small field. To block the harrassment of flanks, the darkspawn simply place their ogres in the flanks, with pikemen behind them. The cavalry is dead.

- The castle was large enough, but in the places were the player was located, it was impossible to effectively defend due to the wide open areas of the courtyards.

- Disorganized formations are actually quite effective. Archers do not significantly effect casualty rates. And since the Darkspawn knew the armies of Fereldan had no cavalry oranything significant with which to change the course of the battle. Marshal Suvorov, used disorganized formations of skirmeshers to devastating effect, to disrupt troop movement, since the troops could not hit them.

- Alexander did not use battlefield tactics that differed significantly from the military doctrine of the time. However, the overall strategy of the campaign was his.

Therefore, you are incorrect.

Haha I love how our arguments always end with you apologizing to prevent further pwnage.

[Ahisgewaya]

Sloth Of Doom wrote...
Sten likes anyone with half a brain, because he is cool.  Morrigan on the other hand, needs to be killed and eaten by Sten, just on general principal

Sten is upset because he doesn't think you're taking the blight seriously. Tell him off a few times and he'll like you. Especially after the mage tower incident, tell him "I'm not here to impress you." and you'll get a +6 approval.
Sten is a badass, and only respects a fellow badass.

And Morrigan is awesome, you just need to remember what her mother is (I won't spoil it, but she has had a screwed up childhood) and treat her accordingly. I take her with me all the time, sometimes she dissaproves a bit, but it's nothing a silver necklace can't cure (and there are lots of silver necklaces). Just don't take her into a situation in which she feels unsafe (she greatly despises both the chantry and the circle of magi, and thinks they're out to get her, for good reason)

Modifié par Ahisgewaya, 28 février 2010 - 01:04 .

[Mlai00]

My current P-C typically just bugs Sten with endless wide-eyed questions because she's fascinated by his culture ever since their long weird cage chat. About the only way you can tell if Sten likes you is if he gives you + approval at the end, LOL. I think Mr.Gaider was thinking of Worf when he wrote Sten, which is awesome.

So far Morrigan has been approving of me steadily, in small increments. It's easy when your P-C is also an outsider who doesn't think much of Fereldan institutions like Chantries and Circles, and who doesn't do charity like it's going out of style.

Alistair hates me though, but I hear he'll never desert anyways, so it's all good LOL. That guy is so self-deprecating, he's just asking for a schoolyard shakedown. Yet when he gets it, he acts all over-sensitive. Sigh, it's not like I hate the poor guy, but how can any Female Dwarven Commoner Rogue resist from poking someone like that?

[Andorfiend]

Mlai00 wrote...

That's a really cute avatar BTW.

She has a voice and personality to match. I love this female dwarven commoner rogue so much.
A true credit to Bioware/Gaider's artform of RPG dialogue tree writing.

Maybe I'll have to try one one of these days. I started a male dwarf commoner fighter and by the time I got to Ostagar I really didn't like the little putz and deleted him. I did like my male dwarf noble fighter but why is that the only origin that manages to lose the DLC items?

Modifié par Andorfiend, 28 février 2010 - 11:23 .

[Kusy]

Andorfiend wrote...

Mlai00 wrote...

That's a really cute avatar BTW.

She has a voice and personality to match. I love this female dwarven commoner rogue so much.
A true credit to Bioware/Gaider's artform of RPG dialogue tree writing.

Maybe I'll have to try one one of these days. I started a male dwarf commoner fighter and by the time I got to Ostagar I really didn't like the little putz and deleted him. I did like my male dwarf noble fighter but why is that the only origin that manages to lose the DLC items?

Andor - delate and reinstall your addons. Then reload your character after the trial and you should have them on you.

[Mlai00]

Yeah I think a lot of guys feel that it's immersion-breaking to play a female player-character, especially since this game has romance subplots. And that especially applies to dwarven females (unless the player has a midget fetish), because then you can't even look at "something nice" while running around Fereldan.

Anybody who wants to play a dwarf after watching LOTR, or playing Warhammer, probably chose a male fighter. Heck, I wanted to make a male dwarven fighter. Only reason I made a female dwarven rogue was because I wanted to roleplay the most unlikely hero possible.

But now I absolutely love her to bits~!! Which is why I say Bioware/Gaider did a remarkable job with the dialogue trees, allowing you to fully immerse yourself from any possible angle. Unlike my first playthrough (male human noble warrior), I can "hear" this girl when she speaks, I can imagine every conversation she has with a Companion in cinematic format, I grin at her adorable greediness, and my grin grows wider whenever the gratitude evaporates from the faces of the pathetic people she just saved/helped when she shakes them down for "fees".

Most likely, all rogues get the same dialogue options in towns... but it's just comedy gold when the rogue in question is this little cherub who looks like Naruto, LMAO. A male human/elf rogue just won't give the same effect.

I only wish Sten is romanceable LOL, because they're just so funny together.

And now I can better understand why a lot of players vehemently oppose having VA for the player characters in DAO. If there's only 1 female VA, she can't possibly portray what's in my head.

[Destrier77]

Ok strategic genii here are some challenges for you beyond burning grass.



Name me two military conflict where weak force has held off and defeated a stronger force by hiding in a fortress?



A fortress is not a battle winner, in fact its somewhere to hide. The fereldans were brave and had no intention of hiding knowing this was their chance to defeat the blight. Therefore what they did was right imho.

[Fluffykeith]

One big problem with retreating and fortifying a fortress is that it forces you to be static. Your enemy might choose to bypass you altogether. Not necessarily the best decision, since it would mean leaving a hostile force behind them, but the Darkspawn might be insane enough to do it, and it seems they have limitless numbers to draw out of the Deep Roads. In fact, if the Ferelden army did choose to withdraw to the fortress, the Darkspawn could set a force to seige the fortress while the rest of the darkspawn could march around and into Ferelden...depending on the landscape, at any rate.

[Andorfiend]

Fortresses have several military purposes, some defensive, some offensive. The trouble with bypassing a fortress is that the defenders can then sally out and savage your supply lines, something no conventional force can allow. It is unclear to me if this is a concern to the Darkspawn, but fantasy games usually pay little attention to the gritty realities of logistics in any event.



Ostagar however seems to be guarding the only easy pass through a fairly nasty range of mountains. If so then holding the pass blocks the invasion north since even the darkspawn are vulnerable to cold, landslide and the other lethal dangers of mountain travel. With that being the case, the Darkspawn had no choice but to assault the fortress.



And for all the discussion about luring and timing remember the darkspawn were advancing on the fortress all on their own. All the Fereldens had to do was sit there and hold the line. Captain Kirrahe would be disappointed by their failure.

[Destrier77]

Darkspawn dont have logistics, they eat you, your children, your parents, your cat, your dog, your chickens,  fish, and space hamsters. They are not the Roman/Franco armies of our universe marching on their bellies. They march on your bellies, and your lungs. Probably with an apparetif of eyeballs

Castles are not offensive. They are purely defensive. The fereldens were not fighting a defensive war and couldnt. The result of fighting a defensive war would have been at best Troy, (with an ogre instead of a wooden horse) at worst one of the many fortified places which tried that tactic against the scourge of God Atilla, who in the end was also beaten in the field.

Also, i maybe wrong on this but wasnt the castle a semi ruin? From my hazy recollections it was falling down, for sure the tower was collapsing. Locking yourself in a fortress is certain death unless you are waiting for reinforcements.

Now if you are saying they should have weathered the storm till Orlais came, i think thats a bad idea also, since i doubt they would have arrived in time if at all, since they are not the best of friends.

Modifié par Destrier77, 02 mars 2010 - 12:25 .

[Destrier77]

Destrier77 wrote...

Darkspawn dont have logistics, they eat you, your children, your parents, your cat, your dog, your chickens,  fish, and space hamsters. They are not the Roman/Franco armies of our universe marching on their bellies. They march on your bellies, and your lungs. Probably with an apparetif of eyeballs

Castles are not offensive. They are purely defensive. The fereldens were not fighting a defensive war and couldnt. The result of fighting a defensive war would have been at best Troy, (with an ogre instead of a wooden horse) at worst one of the many fortified places which tried that tactic against the scourge of God Atilla, who in the end was also beaten in the field.

Also, i maybe wrong on this but wasnt the castle a semi ruin? From my hazy recollections it was falling down, for sure the tower was collapsing. Locking yourself in a fortress is certain death unless you are waiting for reinforcements.

Now if you are saying they should have weathered the storm till Orlais came, i think thats a bad idea also, since i doubt they would have arrived in time if at all, since they are not the best of friends.

sorry for some reason my eyes are drawn to the quote button instead of edit!! Im such a dumb arse.

Modifié par Destrier77, 02 mars 2010 - 12:26 .

[soteria]

Castles are not offensive. They are purely defensive. The fereldens were not fighting a defensive war and couldnt. The result of fighting a defensive war would have been at best Troy, (with an ogre instead of a wooden horse) at worst one of the many fortified places which tried that tactic against the scourge of God Atilla, who in the end was also beaten in the field.

That's just not true. As Andorfiend said, an army garrisoned in a castle is not just static or hiding. They are threatening the surrounding area, because they have a safe position they can fall back to. A much smaller force can threaten or tie down a larger force first because of logistics and second because of tactics--even if your army could win in a "fair fight," you have to consider the possibility of getting hit in the rear.

[Destrier77]

Castles are a defensive hideout or a staging area. They are not offensive. You dont go attack an enemy then build a castle outside his city. If you cant conquer him, you may build a castle to "defend" yourself while you build up. They are defensive.

If you have a large enough force you can control the surrounding area, but they dont. So they wouldnt. They would have ended up trapped like in Lord of the rings the two towers. But no Gandalf...

N you missed my logistics point...

You retreat to your castle, repair the walls and prepare, and this is what your logistics gets you.

Starvation. You are surrounded now. Your "logistics" lines are gone. Most of the enemy has bypassed you to ravage the countryside. The entire army is trapped inside. By a smaller besieging force. Now what?



Like most imperial holdings in the south, Ostagar was abandoned after Tevinter's collapse during the first Blight. It was successfully sacked by the Chasind wilders and then, as the Chasind threat dwindled following the creation of the modern Ferelden nation, fell to ruin completely.
It has remained unmanned for four centuries, though most of the walls still stand--as does the tall Tower of Ishal, named after the great archon who ordered its construction. Ostagar remains a testament to the magical power of the Imperium that created it.

Modifié par Destrier77, 02 mars 2010 - 01:33 .