253 réponses à ce sujet

[Andorfiend]

Destrier77 wrote...

Also the problem with this holding back tactic is you will never win. Its just holding back the inevitable. I would say our world example would be the defence the "300" put up made famous by the movie lately. They held them off giving armies chance to build and prepare. But thats all, they were never going to win (and there were more than 300 there in reality a few thousand).

True. For some reason no one like to mention the 7000 Thespians who also stayed to help hold the pass.

[soteria]

lol at soteria, why are you even in this argument, its about darkspawn. So if your argument doesnt apply to darkspawn then, laterz.... (i thought you seemed confused thats why i ignored it) classic losing argument try to change the focus tactic. Well... not so classic, desperate...

I replied because you made the following statements:

Castles are not offensive. They are purely defensive. The fereldens were not fighting a defensive war and couldnt. The result of fighting a defensive war would have been at best Troy, (with an ogre instead of a wooden horse) at worst one of the many fortified places which tried that tactic against the scourge of God Atilla, who in the end was also beaten in the field.



Castles are a defensive hideout or a staging area. They are not offensive. You dont go attack an enemy then build a castle outside his city. If you cant conquer him, you may build a castle to "defend" yourself while you build up. They are defensive.



If you have a large enough force you can control the surrounding area, but they dont. So they wouldnt. They would have ended up trapped like in Lord of the rings the two towers. But no Gandalf...



N you missed my logistics point...



You retreat to your castle, repair the walls and prepare, and this is what your logistics gets you.



Starvation. You are surrounded now. Your "logistics" lines are gone. Most of the enemy has bypassed you to ravage the countryside. The entire army is trapped inside. By a smaller besieging force. Now what?

None of that has anything directly to do with the darkspawn, as I said in my reply--"How much of this applies to darkspawn is up to conjecture, but you should study some battles from medieval history." Then you completely ignored that comment and pretended you were talking about darkspawn all along, and I'm still scratching my head trying to figure out how a blanket statement like "Castles are purely defensive, never offensive," applies to darkspawn exclusively.

True. For some reason no one like to mention the 7000 Thespians who also stayed to help hold the pass.

It's not as cool to tell a story about a society that was famous for its actors as it is to tell a story about a smaller number famous for being warriors, I'd guess.

[soteria]

@ Soteria

I generally agree with you but I can think of an instance where a smaller force beseiged a larger force. I'm thinking of the early stages of the Seige of Alesia. Also, if we looked, I'm sure we'd find some in the Mongol conquests. Generally when the defending force feels its troops are inferior, albeit more numerous, than the attacker, it withdraws.

Hard to say in the case of the Mongols, though you may be right. Even in well-documented battles like Cannae, historians' numbers for army sizes and casualties wildly disagree. Anyway, wouldn't that be the exception that proves the rule? It's true that sometimes a numerically larger force is inferior in combat strength, so it would perhaps be more accurate to say "superior" and "inferior."



I think it's a bit of a tough sell to say that the darkspawn are superior to humans in even numbers, though. Especially if you compare darkspawn to the human troops you fight toward the end of the game (no spoilers, eh), I'd say the human soldiers are more dangerous. Ogres, shrieks, and emissaries are dangerous, yes, but we saw 1 ogre, 0 shrieks, and 0 emissaries at Ostagar, that I remember. They probably had a few that we didn't see, but Cailan's forces had mages of their own.

[Andorfiend]

Well they had to have either mages or heavy siege. We didn't see either, but something was throwing flaming boulders with unbelievable accuracy.

[Fate Elixir]

Isn't it a safe bet to say that the Darkspawn would bust through the fortress in their numbers? I don't think the front gate is a match for a couple Ogres. That being said, why not charge?

[thegreateski]

Cailan was an idiot.



While watching that whole battle scene the only thing I could think is: "Oh god we're all going to die."



The man is Ferelden's Leroy Jenkins.

[Wah up]

George Custer?



Try Duke of Wellington then come back and talk about tactics.

[Samurai_Steve_In_Paris]

Come on people! There is no intellegence in this game! The reason the idiots in this game are complete dumb(insert word I cant say) is so that you have to save them, therefore, drawing you into the game more and caring what actually happens to the characters. Please no one take offense to this post, I'm just tired of reading this post and hearing people argue and bicker and insult each other as if the characters in this game actually had some form of artificial intellegence.

Modifié par Samurai_Steve_In_Paris, 04 mars 2010 - 04:37 .

[Dr4g0nj4ck]

Samurai_Steve_In_Paris wrote...
I'm just tired of reading this post and hearing people argue and bicker and insult each other as if the characters in this game actually had some form of artificial intellegence.

Yea but the reason we're arguing is that the battle of Ostgar was staged by writers, who we assume have actual intelligence.

[A.N.A.N]

Ostagar never seemed like much of a fortification too me. I mean in the credits you can see the concept image and it shows that the Imperial Highway ends on one peak, with a bridge that connects to the camp on another. Under that bridge is a wide pass that an army could waltz through. If that was the most defensive location between the Wilds and Redcliffe, the Fereldan army was screwed from the start.

[Fluffykeith]

I think we're collectivly forgetting that the plan was formed by Loghain...and he wasn't trying to win the battle, his goal was to get Cailan killed in such a way that he could blame it on the Darkspawn. Loghain is a celebrated tactician, considered a hero...if he'd wanted to he could probably devised a sound strategy that utilised his troops and the terrain and the ruins of Ostagar in such a way that the Darkspawn army could have been defeated. He deliberatly set up a bad strategy that would get the king killed and allow Loghain to survive.

[Mlai00]

Right. Loghain was not interested in defeating the Ds are Ostagar. He was interested in removing Cailan who he felt was being seduced by Orlais and handing Fereldan over on a silver platter. As far as he was concerned, the Ds can wait until he took care of the "Orlesian Crisis." No one really thought it was a true Blight, except the Grey Wardens.



@ Destrier:

Normally, I would present argument points to debates on forum. But your position is so ludicrous, I just don't know where I should start, so I just cba'ed. According to you, fortifications are just completely useless in military campaigns. Do you even realize that's what you're saying??

[Destrier77]

Lysaimachus wrote...

@Destrier77

I like how you ignore counter arguments.

My post gave all the reasons why a besieged army can win and gave specific examples, and included variables for the Darkspawn. Please, if you're not going to address counter arguments don't continue making your argument, that's illogical.

Sorry bro i was too busy replying to the insultive people lol, loudest squeek and all that.

Yes they are brilliant examples so i take it back, in European history its very rare without reinforcements or some other influence like rebellion in the attackers, but you are right. But i still stand by my argument that they are not offensive (only a defensive jump off point).

The thing i would argue is that darkspawn wouldnt suffer logistics problems or rebellion. They have a strong leader, possibly the strongest type an army could have! I would guess they could find food around quite easily but there is a chance. I couldnt personally see them winning a war from holing up, at  best getting a hard fought costly draw.

Pity we cant put the fight into some simulation engine and see what  happens! If you check the art for the fortress though i wouldnt think it would be so good defensively. Its also described as more of a watchtower giving early warning of an invasion rather than an impenetrable fortress  but i may be reading it wrong.

[Andorfiend]

Destrier77 wrote...

Lysaimachus wrote...

@Destrier77

I like how you ignore counter arguments.

My post gave all the reasons why a besieged army can win and gave specific examples, and included variables for the Darkspawn. Please, if you're not going to address counter arguments don't continue making your argument, that's illogical.

Sorry bro i was too busy replying to the insultive people lol, loudest squeek and all that.

Yes they are brilliant examples so i take it back, in European history its very rare without reinforcements or some other influence like rebellion in the attackers, but you are right. But i still stand by my argument that they are not offensive (only a defensive jump off point).

The thing i would argue is that darkspawn wouldnt suffer logistics problems or rebellion. They have a strong leader, possibly the strongest type an army could have! I would guess they could find food around quite easily but there is a chance. I couldnt personally see them winning a war from holing up, at  best getting a hard fought costly draw.

Pity we cant put the fight into some simulation engine and see what  happens! If you check the art for the fortress though i wouldnt think it would be so good defensively. Its also described as more of a watchtower giving early warning of an invasion rather than an impenetrable fortress  but i may be reading it wrong.

They are used offensively as a means of subduing an area in conquest. Because the invading people then have a stronghold that they can use a base for launching raids which can be defended with a token force. So the locals are subject to being raided on a whim but cannot strike back even if they catch the castle with most of the garrison out. This is essesentially how the English norman lords conquered Wales. A feat they were proud enough of that to this day 'Prince of Wales' is the primary title given to the designated heir to the British Throne.

[Feraele]

Ahisgewaya wrote...

And anyone who knows anything about strategy can see what a stupid strategy the king used in the Ostagar attack. I remember thinking that the first time I saw that cutscene. Mages should be healing and placing glyphs if they can't get a good AoE in there without hurting troops. Archers should be higher up. They did indeed have a fortress right behind them they could have used. There isn't a single barricade built by the non darkspawn forces.

Its really too bad they didn't have a barricade up across the front where the darkspawn were rushing in.   A few fireball aoes over the top into the midst of all those darkspawn would light a few on fire..plus having archers up on the ramparts constantly raining down death.    Boiling oil if that was possible..fire and oil go together great..lol.

But I am no war strategist, just occurs to me there was more they could have done.  They spent time yakking about things, and planning things, why there was no barricade erected to slow the darkspawn down some..I don't know.

Perfect bottleneck down there where the darkspawn charged in..could have laid traps out there..just caused more confusion etc...slow em down.     And definitely made use of ballistas..I mean there were quite a few why weren't they used?

Isn't there a piece of advice in one of the loading screens, stating something to the effect of...try flanking your enemy...as history will never remember your failed frontal assault?

I realize the way the whole battle took place was meant for dramatic effect...however.

[Dansayshi]

NPC1: Hey look its the darkspawn! What do we do?

NPC2: Should we close the gate?

NPC1: Nah, the warden will do it.

NPC2: Yeah, go warden! Wait.... Where is the warden?

NPC1: Hes on his way from Denerim, Eamon said he should be here in 3 days.

NPC2: No worries, im sure he'll be here to close the gate in time!



*3 hours later amongst the pile of redcliffe soldiers*



Warden: The **** is this ****?

[Ahisgewaya]

Lysaimachus wrote...

Destrier77 wrote...



Name me two military conflict where weak force has held off and defeated a stronger force by hiding in a fortress?

Siege of Constantinople (626)
Siege of Constantinople (674)

Two quick ones, many more. Basically the idea is to hold out until the besieger is demoralized, runs out of supplies, or the campaign season is over (typically ends in fall with the onset of winter).

Or reinforcements arrive.

[ijustwananame1]

Andorfiend wrote …
True. For some reason no one like to mention the 7000 Thespians who also stayed to help hold the pass.
 
7,000 Thespians? Where did you get that figure from? It’s 50% larger than the best guess figure for the entire combined force.

The best estimates of Thespian numbers comes in at around 700.

In total the Greeks numbered circa. 5,500.

At the end of the day, Thermopylae wasn't all that. The Greeks had enough men to completely block the pass standing shoulder to shoulder and were still able to rotate city-state units in and out of the line.

They were fine so long as they fought head-on. As soon as they were flanked they made the only sensible decision, i.e. to withdraw the main body of men while leaving a force to delay the Persians. That force was less than 1,000 men (700 Thespians + 300 Spartans – Casualties).  Once the Persians completed the encirclement the rearguard was wiped out.
 
Quite predictable.
 
That’s not to deny the bravery of the men left behind.
 
-
As for Ostagar, at the end of the day, if Calian was planning to destroy the Darkspawn forces, he really screwed it up.
The result was deserved.
Which, as has already been pointed out, was probably the plan (and by that I mean Loghain’s plan) all along.

[Ahisgewaya]

thegreateski wrote...

Cailan was an idiot.

While watching that whole battle scene the only thing I could think is: "Oh god we're all going to die."

The man is Ferelden's Leroy Jenkins.

Duncan: "Okay, Alistair, you and the new recruit go to the tower and get ready to light the beacon. Meanwhile we'll have the rogues set up traps along the perimeter and raise some blockades. After that, we need to-"

Cailan: "All right let's do this thang! CAAAAIIIILLAAAAAANNNN!"

Ash Warrior: "Oh my god he just went in!"

Chantry Priestess: "Save him! Save him!"

Modifié par Ahisgewaya, 06 mars 2010 - 05:14 .

[Andorfiend]

ijustwananame1 wrote...

Andorfiend wrote …
True. For some reason no one like to mention the 7000 Thespians who also stayed to help hold the pass.
 
7,000 Thespians? Where did you get that figure from? It’s 50% larger than the best guess figure for the entire combined force.

I got it from the vaguaries of memory. Apparently my memory added a 0.

What I don't quite get it how Cailan grew up the son of a warrior-king whose best friend was a tactical genius and still never learned any tactics more advanced than 'CHARGE!' I mean the born romantic thing is fine up to a point, but you'd think Maric would have slapped some sense into the boy. Maybe he is just an idiot.

[Ahisgewaya]

 

In case some people don't know what I was talking about.

Modifié par Ahisgewaya, 06 mars 2010 - 06:13 .

[BladeHawk979]

Yeah, I agree with what you said, especially when you think about the battle of Ostagar. What's the point of archers if they only shoot one volley? And why the HELL would you put them on the front lines?! But it was still pretty damn awesome.

[Captain Hobbes]

In terms of tactics, formations and whatever rubbish you've all been shouting about in regard to the battle of Ostagar, you're all missing the point.

The headlong charge initiated by King Cailan into the darkspawn was no tactical decision, it was merely a childish decision fueled by his belief in the fairytales of Grey Wardens.

Near the end of DA:O it explains perfectly well that Cailan would listen to no-one about military tactics, and was too heavily influenced by his belief in the skill of the Grey Wardens (of which there were few), and his desire to get rid of the darkspawn quickly. It could be said he didn't realise the threat.

Furthermore, the 'castle' was a ruin, and so would not withstand siege tactics, as is perfectly evident in the cutscene in which towers and turrets are destroyed by the darkspawn missiles (and yes, I mean a generic term for things that are fired at the ruin, not actual rockets).

In regard to darkspawn not being intelligent, well that is a ridiculous argument as they must have a basic intelligence to forge weapons out of metal, which no mere animal could do. Also, in the cutscene I mentioned before they appear to be using catapults or trebuchets (or something which fires big rocks), so I would think it requires some sort of intelligence to create these.

All in all, though, the point you're all missing is that it's a game, and should be treated as just a glorified bit of fun- although, granted, with a brilliant storyline and depth. There were no real tactics or millions of people in the armies because, simply, most computers wouldn't be able to take it.

[Wedger]

Ahisgewaya wrote...

thegreateski wrote...

Cailan was an idiot.

While watching that whole battle scene the only thing I could think is: "Oh god we're all going to die."

The man is Ferelden's Leroy Jenkins.

Duncan: "Okay, Alistair, you and the new recruit go to the tower and get ready to light the beacon. Meanwhile we'll have the rogues set up traps along the perimeter and raise some blockades. After that, we need to-"

Cailan: "All right let's do this thang! CAAAAIIIILLAAAAAANNNN!"

Ash Warrior: "Oh my god he just went in!"

Chantry Priestess: "Save him! Save him!"

Hmmm - sounds like many a table top role playing game 

Modifié par Wedger, 01 juillet 2010 - 11:59 .

[MindYerBeak]

The reason the battle was lost at Ostagar was because Morrigan wasn't there. Simples.