130 réponses à ce sujet

[Arbiter156]

sergio71785 wrote...

Arbiter156 wrote...

Gill Kaiser wrote...

EDI could probably turn off life support in a dreadnaught.

yeah. doubt reapers have a need for air.....

Reapers are not Dreadnoughts. The fact that they're both large ships are the only thing they have in common. 

oh really so why is soveriegn listed as a dreadnought?

[aaniadyen]

HeavyTankZA wrote...

but first they need to detect the normandy.

Normandy's position would be given away after the first shot fired. Also, they could see the Normandy through windows, even with stealth systems active.

[lost lupus]

the reapers are still in dark space so for now the SR2 is the most advanced/dangerous ship in the galaxy

[Aisynia]

aaniadyen wrote...

HeavyTankZA wrote...

but first they need to detect the normandy.

Normandy's position would be given away after the first shot fired. Also, they could see the Normandy through windows, even with stealth systems active.

Windows are no way to develop a firing solution.

You are not a cowboy firing from the hip, we do not eyeball it

[aaniadyen]

Aisynia wrote...

aaniadyen wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

Arbiter156 wrote...

no it isnt the most dangerous ship in the galaxy, yes whilst it is very technologically advanced it is only a frigate ad couldnt stand up against the everest, destiny ascention, or harbinger. and it only survived the collector ship attack through, manouverabilty. the thanix cannon is tech stolen from the turians, which was adapted from sovreigns weapon, (its the same type as the red lasers it used agianst the citadel fleet). it is by far the best in its class. but its IES stealth system will not hide it from the collectors or the reapers. 

You're assuming a toe-to-toe slugfest. Dreadnoughts aren't the be-all end-all of naval combat in ME. Basically all they do is hammer away at each other's defenses while packs of frigates engage each other to keep the dreadnoughts safe. You saw how useful a dreadnought is against frigates in ME1 when the Destiny Ascension got owned, assuming you don't save it.

Even so, dreadnoughts probably have massive generators for their kinetic barriers. The codex entry on the Normandy's upgraded shields indicate that they are not designed for long, drawn-out fights. If the Normandy went up against a dreadnought toe-to toe, the dreadnought would probably take out the Normandy's shields and force it to flee before the Normandy could get more than three shots off with the Thanix canon.

This is all assuming the dreadnought could maneuver its gun into a position to fire on the Normandy. With the Normandy's maneuverability, stealth technology (can't pick it up on sensors, at least for the first couple minutes of a fight before they were forced to vent heat or get cooked), and the possibility of EDI hacking their targeting systems, it would be nearly impossible to actually hit the Normandy with its main gun. And dreadnoughts are basically built around that gun.

Are they? I really didn't know. I just assumed with a crew of 10,000 they would have more than 1 gun. It would be stupid to build a ship the size of a dreadnought and not include weapons systems to take out ships that could outmaneuver it. Namely because just about every class of ship can outmaneuver a dreadnought.

[marshalleck]

aaniadyen wrote...

Aisynia wrote...

aaniadyen wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

Arbiter156 wrote...

no it isnt the most dangerous ship in the galaxy, yes whilst it is very technologically advanced it is only a frigate ad couldnt stand up against the everest, destiny ascention, or harbinger. and it only survived the collector ship attack through, manouverabilty. the thanix cannon is tech stolen from the turians, which was adapted from sovreigns weapon, (its the same type as the red lasers it used agianst the citadel fleet). it is by far the best in its class. but its IES stealth system will not hide it from the collectors or the reapers. 

You're assuming a toe-to-toe slugfest. Dreadnoughts aren't the be-all end-all of naval combat in ME. Basically all they do is hammer away at each other's defenses while packs of frigates engage each other to keep the dreadnoughts safe. You saw how useful a dreadnought is against frigates in ME1 when the Destiny Ascension got owned, assuming you don't save it.

Even so, dreadnoughts probably have massive generators for their kinetic barriers. The codex entry on the Normandy's upgraded shields indicate that they are not designed for long, drawn-out fights. If the Normandy went up against a dreadnought toe-to toe, the dreadnought would probably take out the Normandy's shields and force it to flee before the Normandy could get more than three shots off with the Thanix canon.

This is all assuming the dreadnought could maneuver its gun into a position to fire on the Normandy. With the Normandy's maneuverability, stealth technology (can't pick it up on sensors, at least for the first couple minutes of a fight before they were forced to vent heat or get cooked), and the possibility of EDI hacking their targeting systems, it would be nearly impossible to actually hit the Normandy with its main gun. And dreadnoughts are basically built around that gun.

Are they? I really didn't know. I just assumed with a crew of 10,000 they would have more than 1 gun. It would be stupid to build a ship the size of a dreadnought and not include weapons systems to take out ships that could outmaneuver it. Namely because just about every class of ship can outmaneuver a dreadnought.

masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Codex/Ships_and_Vehicles#Space_Combat:_General_Tactics

[Arbiter156]

marshalleck wrote...

Arbiter156 wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

Arbiter156 wrote...

no it isnt the most dangerous ship in the galaxy, yes whilst it is very technologically advanced it is only a frigate ad couldnt stand up against the everest, destiny ascention, or harbinger. and it only survived the collector ship attack through, manouverabilty. the thanix cannon is tech stolen from the turians, which was adapted from sovreigns weapon, (its the same type as the red lasers it used agianst the citadel fleet). it is by far the best in its class. but its IES stealth system will not hide it from the collectors or the reapers. 

You're assuming a toe-to-toe slugfest. Dreadnoughts aren't the be-all end-all of naval combat in ME. Basically all they do is hammer away at each other's defenses while packs of frigates engage each other to keep the dreadnoughts safe. You saw how useful a dreadnought is against frigates in ME1 when the Destiny Ascension got owned, assuming you don't save it.

in the words of rear admiral mikalovich, "its a gimmick commander, useless in a standup fight"

Dreadnoughts are designed for taking on other dreadnoughts. They don't engage frigates, they're too small and maneuverable. Packs of firgates can bring enough firepower to bear on dreadnought to take it down, but individually probably not. SR-2's firepower however is leagues beyond a conventional frigate or even a cruiser.

Read the Codex. Rear Admiral Mikhailovic is notable for his short-sightedness when it comes to the value of the first Normandy. We're talking about the Sr-2, by the way.

arrrrrggggghhh look the normandy is the most advnced ship in the alliance fleet/cerberus's fleet, but it would get owned against anything larger than it such as a dreadnought, dreadnought aiming is always being improved so the normandy is not meant for large space fights. it is a deep scout meant for operating in high risk areas such as the terminus systems. the thanix cannon is based on reaper tech though likely not as powerfull and probably scaled down otherwise is would drain too much of the normandy's power. SR2 is bassically SR1 but longer and with space for more upgrades. rear adimaral mikhailovic still has a point. unless sheard gets his hands on the Everest, he doesnt have much of a chance in a large scale confrontation. 

[aaniadyen]

marshalleck wrote...

aaniadyen wrote...

Aisynia wrote...

aaniadyen wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

Arbiter156 wrote...

no it isnt the most dangerous ship in the galaxy, yes whilst it is very technologically advanced it is only a frigate ad couldnt stand up against the everest, destiny ascention, or harbinger. and it only survived the collector ship attack through, manouverabilty. the thanix cannon is tech stolen from the turians, which was adapted from sovreigns weapon, (its the same type as the red lasers it used agianst the citadel fleet). it is by far the best in its class. but its IES stealth system will not hide it from the collectors or the reapers. 

You're assuming a toe-to-toe slugfest. Dreadnoughts aren't the be-all end-all of naval combat in ME. Basically all they do is hammer away at each other's defenses while packs of frigates engage each other to keep the dreadnoughts safe. You saw how useful a dreadnought is against frigates in ME1 when the Destiny Ascension got owned, assuming you don't save it.

Even so, dreadnoughts probably have massive generators for their kinetic barriers. The codex entry on the Normandy's upgraded shields indicate that they are not designed for long, drawn-out fights. If the Normandy went up against a dreadnought toe-to toe, the dreadnought would probably take out the Normandy's shields and force it to flee before the Normandy could get more than three shots off with the Thanix canon.

This is all assuming the dreadnought could maneuver its gun into a position to fire on the Normandy. With the Normandy's maneuverability, stealth technology (can't pick it up on sensors, at least for the first couple minutes of a fight before they were forced to vent heat or get cooked), and the possibility of EDI hacking their targeting systems, it would be nearly impossible to actually hit the Normandy with its main gun. And dreadnoughts are basically built around that gun.

Are they? I really didn't know. I just assumed with a crew of 10,000 they would have more than 1 gun. It would be stupid to build a ship the size of a dreadnought and not include weapons systems to take out ships that could outmaneuver it. Namely because just about every class of ship can outmaneuver a dreadnought.

masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Codex/Ships_and_Vehicles#Space_Combat:_General_Tactics

-.- After reading that I realize how far the ME universe has fallen.
"So yeah, dreadnoughts are basically artillery in space. They can't use their main gun in close firefights, rendering them totally useless against smaller ships, but still, no sane commander would engage a dreadnought with anything less than another dreadnought for...some reason that we are still trying to figure out."

[Gill Kaiser]

How far it's fallen? It was always like that, since ME1...

[marshalleck]

How far it has fallen? That was in the codex of the first game. And smaller ships will engage a dreadnought in close range, where the dreadnought's primary offensive weapon is neutralized.

[Arbiter156]

Gill Kaiser wrote...

How far it's fallen? It was always like that, since ME1...

are we just insulting Mass effect now?

[Arbiter156]

look a single shot from a dreadnought will kill the normandy virtually instantly

[marshalleck]

Arbiter156 wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

Arbiter156 wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

Arbiter156 wrote...

no it isnt the most dangerous ship in the galaxy, yes whilst it is very technologically advanced it is only a frigate ad couldnt stand up against the everest, destiny ascention, or harbinger. and it only survived the collector ship attack through, manouverabilty. the thanix cannon is tech stolen from the turians, which was adapted from sovreigns weapon, (its the same type as the red lasers it used agianst the citadel fleet). it is by far the best in its class. but its IES stealth system will not hide it from the collectors or the reapers. 

You're assuming a toe-to-toe slugfest. Dreadnoughts aren't the be-all end-all of naval combat in ME. Basically all they do is hammer away at each other's defenses while packs of frigates engage each other to keep the dreadnoughts safe. You saw how useful a dreadnought is against frigates in ME1 when the Destiny Ascension got owned, assuming you don't save it.

in the words of rear admiral mikalovich, "its a gimmick commander, useless in a standup fight"

Dreadnoughts are designed for taking on other dreadnoughts. They don't engage frigates, they're too small and maneuverable. Packs of firgates can bring enough firepower to bear on dreadnought to take it down, but individually probably not. SR-2's firepower however is leagues beyond a conventional frigate or even a cruiser.

Read the Codex. Rear Admiral Mikhailovic is notable for his short-sightedness when it comes to the value of the first Normandy. We're talking about the Sr-2, by the way.

arrrrrggggghhh look the normandy is the most advnced ship in the alliance fleet/cerberus's fleet, but it would get owned against anything larger than it such as a dreadnought, dreadnought aiming is always being improved so the normandy is not meant for large space fights. it is a deep scout meant for operating in high risk areas such as the terminus systems. the thanix cannon is based on reaper tech though likely not as powerfull and probably scaled down otherwise is would drain too much of the normandy's power. SR2 is bassically SR1 but longer and with space for more upgrades. rear adimaral mikhailovic still has a point. unless sheard gets his hands on the Everest, he doesnt have much of a chance in a large scale confrontation. 

The SR-2 is packing cruiser-equivalent firepower and cyber-warfare capabilities in a ship with the size, speed, and maneuverability of a large frigate. Pair this with EDI and you have probably the single most dangerous ship in the galaxy. Useless in a stand-up fight? Maybe, but that's not what it's built for and that's not what naval battles are centered around either. Most combat takes place between cruisers and frigates. Normandy SR-2 would decimate any of those.

[marshalleck]

Arbiter156 wrote...

look a single shot from a dreadnought will kill the normandy virtually instantly

Except it wouldn't even be able to hit the Normandy in the first place. Dreadnoughts' main guns are for long range bombardment of hardened targets, i.e. other dreadnoughts and planetary targets. Not for engaging smaller craft.

Modifié par marshalleck, 25 février 2010 - 08:31 .

[aaniadyen]

*shrugs* I'm tired, poor word choice. Pretend I said "I realize how stupid the ME universe is." Or whatever else. The codex entry says "No sane commander would face a dreadnought with anything less than another dreadnought." It also says "Neither dreadnoughts nor cruisers can use their main guns at close range; laying the bow on a moving target becomes impossible. Superheated thruster exhaust becomes a hazard." Considering the fact that it goes out of it's way to state that the Dreadnoughts' primary battery is really the only thing it has going for it...this doesn't make any sense. If a Dreadnought only had it's main gun, it would be very simple to destroy it from a close range. So...why would the codex say that any sane commander wouldn't attack a dreadnought unless they were using a dreadnought themselves? There's either something I'm missing here, or they made the whole premise of even having dreadnoughts pointless.

Modifié par aaniadyen, 25 février 2010 - 08:36 .

[Tassigny]

Aisynia wrote...

Aside from reapers, of course. And I don't mean the most powerful either, but the most dangerous.

The fully upgraded SR-2 has:

It's stealth systems which allow it to venture into places other ships simply cannot, dropping off Shepard (most lethal person in the galaxy) and her team anywhere necessary.

The most advanced and cutting edge armor in the galaxy, constructed using carbon nanotube sheets woven with diamond Chemical Vapor Depostion.

It possesses Multi-Core Shielding, a relatively new and powerful shielding technology that, instead of simply acting as a barrier, actively slaps aside debris and incoming attacks.

The Thanix Cannon, technology ripped off from the turians (thanks Garrus!) which, as we know, is horrifically powerful. It's even scarier if you understand the science behind it.

And last, but far from least: EDI. While the rest of this technology comes together in a combination probably unheard of: the cannon is turian technology, the armor I believe is asari technology and the shields, I'm not sure where Tali got those. Wouldn't surprise me. Stealth systems were a human idea, constructed in an initial joint venture with the turians. Maybe she invented them. But with all this incredible technology, we have an incredibly sopisticated, AMICABLE anbd TRUSTWORTHY AI who can attack enemy ships with REAPER VIRUSES, shutting down their gravity, life support, power plants.. overloading their systems.. who kows what else.

So.. Considering all this.. the SR-2 is the most dangerous ship in the galaxy aside from the Reapers themselves...

Agree.. disagree..?

Hello,

I agree with most of your statement. The Normandy SR-2 is indeed one of the deadliest warships in the galaxy, but suffers from one major flaw : it's size. 

While a cruiser or larger ship may be able to sustain heavy damage, and even survive a Thanix cannon shot, the Normandy would hardly manage minor damage, and would likely be ripped appart fast.

Therferore, speed and imidiate destruction of opposition before having to feel the answer is vital to the Normandy to survive. Also, another weakness is the inability to fend of fighters : the main gun is aimed to destroying large ships, and there is no way to fend of waves of light fighters. 

[Kaiser Shepard]

Arbiter156 wrote...

sergio71785 wrote...

Arbiter156 wrote...

Gill Kaiser wrote...

EDI could probably turn off life support in a dreadnaught.

yeah. doubt reapers have a need for air.....

Reapers are not Dreadnoughts. The fact that they're both large ships are the only thing they have in common. 

oh really so why is soveriegn listed as a dreadnought?

Because it was/is thought to be a geth/Reaper ship and not an actual Reaper.

Not that it would matter, even if it were a mere ship it would still dwarf any known ship.

Modifié par Kaiser Shepard, 25 février 2010 - 08:40 .

[aaniadyen]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Arbiter156 wrote...

sergio71785 wrote...

Arbiter156 wrote...

Gill Kaiser wrote...

EDI could probably turn off life support in a dreadnaught.

yeah. doubt reapers have a need for air.....

Reapers are not Dreadnoughts. The fact that they're both large ships are the only thing they have in common. 

oh really so why is soveriegn listed as a dreadnought?

Because it was/is thought to be a geth/Reaper ship and not an actual Reaper.

Codex entries aren't written like that. Codex entries are true outside the bounds of story perspectives.

[Riot Inducer]

aaniadyen wrote...
-.- After reading that I realize how far the ME universe has fallen.
"So yeah, dreadnoughts are basically artillery in space. They can't use their main gun in close firefights, rendering them totally useless against smaller ships, but still, no sane commander would engage a dreadnought with anything less than another dreadnought for...some reason that we are still trying to figure out."

It hasn't "fallen" anywhere, it's been like that since ME1, the reason dreadnaughts are so feared is because when enemy ships no matter the class are in optimal weapon range they will get absolutely shredded by the dreadnaught's superior weapons, cruisers and other ships can't return fire at this range they have to do their damndest to evade the dreadnaughts fire while they get close enough for their weapons to be effective. 

And it's not that dreadnaught's don't have other weapons they got broadside guns and GARDIAN lasers but their main gun is their huge advantage, it becomes hard to use it in close combat because the ship has to maneuver a lot more to aim at fast moving close range ships. It's like trying to use a sniper rifle in CQC you might be able to get some hits but for the most part you're just going to be wasting ammo.

[marshalleck]

aaniadyen wrote...

*shrugs* I'm tired, poor word choice. Pretend I said "I realize how stupid the ME universe is." Or whatever else. The codex entry says "No sane commander would face a dreadnought with anything less than another dreadnought." It also says "Neither dreadnoughts nor cruisers can use their main guns at close range; laying the bow on a moving target becomes impossible. Superheated thruster exhaust becomes a hazard." Considering the fact that it goes out of it's way to state that the Dreadnoughts' primary battery is really the only thing it has going for it...this doesn't make any sense. If a Dreadnought only had it's main gun, it would be very simple to destroy it from a close range. So...why would the codex say that any sane commander wouldn't attack a dreadnought unless they were using a dreadnought themselves?

Just read the codex. Every point you raise here is addressed. Dreadnoughts are not completely defenseless at close range, but their main weapon is useless. They have GARDIAN defenses and such which will bring down fighters and frigates after a while. Each class of vessel has its' strengths and weaknesses. The Normandy can't maintain planetary bombardment like a dreadnought can, but does that make it "worse" than a dreadnought? Of course not, the criteria for assessing the value of a warship isn't so black and white.

Think about it. If dreadnoughts were the best at everything, it's the only type of ship that would exist. Nobody would bother building anything less.

Modifié par marshalleck, 25 février 2010 - 08:44 .

[sergio71785]

Reapers might be listed as a Dreadnought because of their huge size, but they're in a league far beyond that of the Dreadnoughts found in the navies of the Turians/Humans/Asari/etc, that's why you can't really just drop them into the same "class"

Modifié par sergio71785, 25 février 2010 - 08:43 .

[aaniadyen]

Riot Inducer wrote...

aaniadyen wrote...
-.- After reading that I realize how far the ME universe has fallen.
"So yeah, dreadnoughts are basically artillery in space. They can't use their main gun in close firefights, rendering them totally useless against smaller ships, but still, no sane commander would engage a dreadnought with anything less than another dreadnought for...some reason that we are still trying to figure out."

It hasn't "fallen" anywhere, it's been like that since ME1, the reason dreadnaughts are so feared is because when enemy ships no matter the class are in optimal weapon range they will get absolutely shredded by the dreadnaught's superior weapons, cruisers and other ships can't return fire at this range they have to do their damndest to evade the dreadnaughts fire while they get close enough for their weapons to be effective. 

And it's not that dreadnaught's don't have other weapons they got broadside guns and GARDIAN lasers but their main gun is their huge advantage, it becomes hard to use it in close combat because the ship has to maneuver a lot more to aim at fast moving close range ships. It's like trying to use a sniper rifle in CQC you might be able to get some hits but for the most part you're just going to be wasting ammo.

Thank you. This makes a lot more sense. Was just waiting for someone to give me some example of weapons the dreadnoughts had besides the main gun. The notion of investing that much money into a ship that would be useless at ~20km is completely ridiculous.

[Tarisln]

aaniadyen wrote...

*shrugs* I'm tired, poor word choice. Pretend I said "I realize how stupid the ME universe is." Or whatever else. The codex entry says "No sane commander would face a dreadnought with anything less than another dreadnought." It also says "Neither dreadnoughts nor cruisers can use their main guns at close range; laying the bow on a moving target becomes impossible. Superheated thruster exhaust becomes a hazard." Considering the fact that it goes out of it's way to state that the Dreadnoughts' primary battery is really the only thing it has going for it...this doesn't make any sense. If a Dreadnought only had it's main gun, it would be very simple to destroy it from a close range. So...why would the codex say that any sane commander wouldn't attack a dreadnought unless they were using a dreadnought themselves? There's either something I'm missing here, or they made the whole premise of even having dreadnoughts pointless.

While the main gun is useless agains a small, maneuverable craft, I'd have to imagine that dreadnaughts and cruisers are also armed with point defense systems designed to shoot down fighters, frigates, and incoming ordinance. To do otherwise just seems incredibly dumb.

Of course, I've also been scratching my head for a while now as to why all the ship-mounted weapons seem to be fixed in a forward-firing solution only. Have the ship designers of the galaxy not heard of turrets or arcs of fire? Some point defence systems woulda done wonders for dealing with the occuli at the Collertor base.

[marshalleck]

Tarisln wrote...

While the main gun is useless agains a small, maneuverable craft, I'd have to imagine that dreadnaughts and cruisers are also armed with point defense systems designed to shoot down fighters, frigates, and incoming ordinance. To do otherwise just seems incredibly dumb.

Of course, I've also been scratching my head for a while now as to why all the ship-mounted weapons seem to be fixed in a forward-firing solution only. Have the ship designers of the galaxy not heard of turrets or arcs of fire? Some point defence systems woulda done wonders for dealing with the occuli at the Collertor base.

I think you actually see the Normandy's GARDIAN lasers firing at the oculi don't you? I am not on my home computer atm so I can't watch the bink videos. I'm pretty sure you either see it, or Joker mentions it. Regardless, in that specific situation there is so much debris around the Normandy that lasers would be of limited effectiveness anyway since there's a good chance the beam would be obstructed by random junk.

[aaniadyen]

marshalleck wrote...

aaniadyen wrote...

*shrugs* I'm tired, poor word choice. Pretend I said "I realize how stupid the ME universe is." Or whatever else. The codex entry says "No sane commander would face a dreadnought with anything less than another dreadnought." It also says "Neither dreadnoughts nor cruisers can use their main guns at close range; laying the bow on a moving target becomes impossible. Superheated thruster exhaust becomes a hazard." Considering the fact that it goes out of it's way to state that the Dreadnoughts' primary battery is really the only thing it has going for it...this doesn't make any sense. If a Dreadnought only had it's main gun, it would be very simple to destroy it from a close range. So...why would the codex say that any sane commander wouldn't attack a dreadnought unless they were using a dreadnought themselves?

Just read the codex. Every point you raise here is addressed. Dreadnoughts are not completely defenseless at close range, but their main weapon is useless. They have GARDIAN defenses and such which will bring down fighters and frigates after a while. Each class of vessel has its' strengths and weaknesses. The Normandy can't maintain planetary bombardment like a dreadnought can, but does that make it "worse" than a dreadnought? Of course not, the criteria for assessing the value of a warship isn't so black and white.

Think about it. If dreadnoughts were the best at everything, it's the only type of ship that would exist. Nobody would bother building anything less.

Ahh, I did overlook something...the GUARDIAN laser systems bypass shielding. I assumed they wouldn't because the closest thing we have in real life would block laser weapons in their most rudimentary states. It just didn't make any sense to me. I appreciate your kindness in correcting me. lol

Anyway...to go back on topic. Assuming a dreadnought were to go toe to toe with a dreadnought, I don't think the Normandy would hold up. The dreadnoughts are designed for the longest range fighting (tens of thousands of kilometers, according to the codex). The Normandy wouldn't be able to mask it's heat emissions long enough between the time it entered the range of the sensors, and the time the dreadnought's main gun would be rendered useless. The dreadnought would shoot the Normandy to ****. Assuming the Normandy is already at close range, it depends. The Normandy's Thanix canon would need to be able to destroy the dreadnought's kinetic barriers, and the entire ship itself before the guardian lasers, and torpedoes could burn through the Normandy's plating. It's not really defined anywhere...but I can't imagine the Normandy being able to go through a dreadnought that quickly, even with the Thanix canon. It's said to bring the firepower of a dreadnought to frigate-sized ships. Considering dreadnoughts are usually the first to fire in naval battles (presumably at eachother) the dreadnought would probably be able to hold out for awhile.

Modifié par aaniadyen, 25 février 2010 - 09:11 .