130 réponses à ce sujet

[lost lupus]

aaniadyen wrote...

*shrugs* I'm tired, poor word choice. Pretend I said "I realize how stupid the ME universe is." Or whatever else. The codex entry says "No sane commander would face a dreadnought with anything less than another dreadnought." It also says "Neither dreadnoughts nor cruisers can use their main guns at close range; laying the bow on a moving target becomes impossible. Superheated thruster exhaust becomes a hazard." Considering the fact that it goes out of it's way to state that the Dreadnoughts' primary battery is really the only thing it has going for it...this doesn't make any sense. If a Dreadnought only had it's main gun, it would be very simple to destroy it from a close range. So...why would the codex say that any sane commander wouldn't attack a dreadnought unless they were using a dreadnought themselves? There's either something I'm missing here, or they made the whole premise of even having dreadnoughts pointless.

this is why: with dreadnoughts and carriers only deployed in full-scale fleet actions

basicaly nobody's going around with just a dreadnought their not designed for it

Opposing dreadnoughts open with main gun artillery duel at EXTREME ranges of tens of thousands of kilometers. The fleet close, maintaining evasive lateral motion while keeping their bow guns facing the enemy. Fighters are launched and attempt to close to disruptor torpedo range. Cautious admirals weaken the enemy with ranged fire and fighter strikes before committing to close action

At LONG range  friendly interceptors engage enemy fighters until the attackers enter the range of ship-based GARDIAN fire. Dreadnoughts fire from the rear, screened by smaller ships. Commanders must decide whether to commit to a general melee or retreat into FTL

At MEDIUM range, ships can use broadside guns (the bow gun may be there oneshotter but its not their only gun)

At close range GARDIAN lasers become viable weapons, swatting down fighters and boiling away warship armor.

thats just all the stuff a dreadnought has with it its self even the normandy carnt hold out against swarms of fighters and interceptors and if the normandy gets to close to a dreadnought GARDIAN lasers will **** it up

must say 1 ship against that is one gutsy mofo

now throw in frigates and crusiers that accompany dreadnoughts, as well as carriers (i get the impression humans have most of these)  equals one thing GAME OVER MAN GAME OVER

SR2 versus even a lone dreanought = Epic Fail dreadnoughts are never alone

[Tamahome560]

Beechwell wrote...


I don't know how much better EDI is compared to VI in her virtual warfare abilities.

SR2 is the only ship that has cyberwarfare because It's the only ship with an AI. VI's don't have cyberwarfare suit because they cannot access any external systems. 

Modifié par Tamahome560, 25 février 2010 - 09:11 .

[aaniadyen]

lost lupus wrote...

aaniadyen wrote...

*shrugs* I'm tired, poor word choice. Pretend I said "I realize how stupid the ME universe is." Or whatever else. The codex entry says "No sane commander would face a dreadnought with anything less than another dreadnought." It also says "Neither dreadnoughts nor cruisers can use their main guns at close range; laying the bow on a moving target becomes impossible. Superheated thruster exhaust becomes a hazard." Considering the fact that it goes out of it's way to state that the Dreadnoughts' primary battery is really the only thing it has going for it...this doesn't make any sense. If a Dreadnought only had it's main gun, it would be very simple to destroy it from a close range. So...why would the codex say that any sane commander wouldn't attack a dreadnought unless they were using a dreadnought themselves? There's either something I'm missing here, or they made the whole premise of even having dreadnoughts pointless.

this is why: with dreadnoughts and carriers only deployed in full-scale fleet actions

basicaly nobody's going around with just a dreadnought their not designed for it

Opposing dreadnoughts open with main gun artillery duel at EXTREME ranges of tens of thousands of kilometers. The fleet close, maintaining evasive lateral motion while keeping their bow guns facing the enemy. Fighters are launched and attempt to close to disruptor torpedo range. Cautious admirals weaken the enemy with ranged fire and fighter strikes before committing to close action

At LONG range  friendly interceptors engage enemy fighters until the attackers enter the range of ship-based GARDIAN fire. Dreadnoughts fire from the rear, screened by smaller ships. Commanders must decide whether to commit to a general melee or retreat into FTL

At MEDIUM range, ships can use broadside guns (the bow gun may be there oneshotter but its not their only gun)

At close range GARDIAN lasers become viable weapons, swatting down fighters and boiling away warship armor.

thats just all the stuff a dreadnought has with it its self even the normandy carnt hold out against swarms of fighters and interceptors and if the normandy gets to close to a dreadnought GARDIAN lasers will **** it up

must say 1 ship against that is one gutsy mofo

now throw in frigates and crusiers that accompany dreadnoughts, as well as carriers (i get the impression humans have most of these)  equals one thing GAME OVER MAN GAME OVER

SR2 versus even a lone dreanought = Epic Fail dreadnoughts are never alone

Ahh, that does clarify. I was under the impression that the dreadnought would have kind of a "deadzone" which would be too close to use the main battery, but too far to employ the GARDIAN lasers. I was also disregarding the broadside guns. You're right. The Normandy wouldn't stand a chance.

[OptimusAlex]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

It may not be able to out gun a dreadnought (but it should with the thanix cannon) but it sure as hell can outmaneuver one, and that alone makes it a force to be reckoned with. With EDI, the stealth systems, and all of the upgrades I say it could take out a small fleet singlehanded. The other ships would never have a firing solution because of the stealth systems.

except it got blasted to hell by a couple of collector security drones...

[marshalleck]

lost lupus wrote...

thats just all the stuff a dreadnought has with it its self even the normandy carnt hold out against swarms of fighters and interceptors and if the normandy gets to close to a dreadnought GARDIAN lasers will **** it up

must say 1 ship against that is one gutsy mofo

now throw in frigates and crusiers that accompany dreadnoughts, as well as carriers (i get the impression humans have most of these)  equals one thing GAME OVER MAN GAME OVER

SR2 versus even a lone dreanought = Epic Fail dreadnoughts are never alone

Except this all flies in the face of what the codex itself says. Frigates engage dreadnoughts at close range using wolfpack tactics. The SR2 itself packs enough shielding, armor, and firepower to make it equivalent to a wolfpack by itself. In a conventional naval battle I don't doubt that the SR-2 could take down a dreadnought by itself, especially with EDI hacking into the target ship's systems and scrambling their shields and sensors.

GARDIAN systems are not an instant-win against smaller vessels. They take time to wear down defenses. Small fighters can't hold up against GARDIAN fire for as long as frigates can, and GARDIAN defense systems can't operate indefinitely. They build up massive amounts of heat.

masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/GARDIAN

Modifié par marshalleck, 25 février 2010 - 09:26 .

[Aisynia]

Would like to point out that in my OP, I specifically said not necessarily the most powerful, but the most dangerous. Difference.

That said, in a hypothetical 1 on 1 battle, I do believe the SR-2 could defeat a dreadnought, circumstances permitting. It would be largely dependent on getting close enough using stealth systems to render its main gun unusable. After that, it would rely on a combination of maneuverability and EDI hacking their systems and disrupting their targeting systems to essentially render Normandy nearly unhittable while it lined up its own firing solutions for the Thanix Cannon.

Not saying its fool proof. Also, one of the above posters is right. This is hypothetical, since a dreadnought is never alone. You would need to take out its fighter and frigate screen first.

Modifié par Aisynia, 25 février 2010 - 09:36 .

[lost lupus]

marshalleck wrote...

lost lupus wrote...

thats just all the stuff a dreadnought has with it its self even the normandy carnt hold out against swarms of fighters and interceptors and if the normandy gets to close to a dreadnought GARDIAN lasers will **** it up

must say 1 ship against that is one gutsy mofo

now throw in frigates and crusiers that accompany dreadnoughts, as well as carriers (i get the impression humans have most of these)  equals one thing GAME OVER MAN GAME OVER

SR2 versus even a lone dreanought = Epic Fail dreadnoughts are never alone

Except this all flies in the face of what the codex itself says. Frigates engage dreadnoughts at close range using wolfpack tactics. The SR2 itself packs enough shielding, armor, and firepower to make it equivalent to a wolfpack by itself. In a conventional naval battle I don't doubt that the SR-2 could take down a dreadnought by itself, especially with EDI hacking into the target ship's systems and scrambling their shields and sensors.

GARDIAN systems are not an instant-win against smaller vessels. They take time to wear down defenses. Small fighters can't hold up against GARDIAN fire for as long as frigates can, and GARDIAN defense systems can't operate indefinitely. They build up massive amounts of heat.

masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/GARDIAN

i never said its instant win and look at how battles are done frigates enter wolf packs and pick off the scraps

Fighters loose their disruptor torpedoes, bringing down a ship's kinetic barriers and allowing it to be swarmed by frigates

Ships with damaged kinetic barriers are vulnerable to wolfpack1 frigate flotillas that speed through the battle space.
  
your sending 1 ship not just against dreadnought at the worst of time's it has fighters and interceptors to cover it
far more likely your be up against a fleet

also dont cherry pick data to mount your case in
context of a frigate's role i battle its not good for the SR2
now its cyber warfare gives it a chance but still if its a smart admerial they would catch on after the first attempt to hack and disable their wireless network making less system at the mercy of a EDI
so unless the its successfull fairly quickly (however long it takes to shut down and isolate their wireless networks) as modern distroyers and sub's already have the capabilty to switch of wireless system function's i doubt tech would regress

EDI 's says that she can hack their firewalls so its like they know nothing about viruses  

Modifié par lost lupus, 25 février 2010 - 09:58 .

[marshalleck]

I'm not cherry-picking data, I am providing sources for the claims I make. Here's another weakness in your argument: dreadnoughts don't carry compliments of fighters. Carriers do.

Modifié par marshalleck, 25 février 2010 - 09:51 .

[Katarian]

Approximately 40% of the hull's width, broadside guns inflict
less damage and can be mounted with greater numbers and more
flexibility. The modern human Kilimanjaro-class dreadnoughts mount
three decks with 26 broadside accelerators apiece for a total salvo
weight of 78 slugs per side, firing once every two seconds.

A Dreadnaught's Main Gun isn't the only problem you have to deal with. Broadside guns are really going to ruin the Normandy's day if you aren't careful. The stealth system helps by avoiding fire until you start the fight but unless you get a really quick kill you are going to run into big trouble eventually. EDI is going to be your biggest asset.

Overall though the Normandy isn't going to win a real fight against a Crusier or Dreadnaught. As you'd hope no one would be stupid enough to let those ships fly around or engage by themselves, so it's always going to 1 v Many.

[Gill Kaiser]

aaniadyen wrote...

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Arbiter156 wrote...

sergio71785 wrote...

Arbiter156 wrote...

Gill Kaiser wrote...

EDI could probably turn off life support in a dreadnaught.

yeah. doubt reapers have a need for air.....

Reapers are not Dreadnoughts. The fact that they're both large ships are the only thing they have in common. 

oh really so why is soveriegn listed as a dreadnought?

Because it was/is thought to be a geth/Reaper ship and not an actual Reaper.

Codex entries aren't written like that. Codex entries are true outside the bounds of story perspectives.

No they aren't. Codex entries are written from the point of view of the universe at large. You can clearly see that by the fact that they mention Sovereign as a 'geth flagship' and make no mention of the fact that it's a Reaper. How about the fact that the Codex still states that the Citadel is 'thought to have been built by the ancient Protheans'? The Codex is written as if you were searching the extranet in-universe.

[Katarian]

marshalleck wrote...

I'm not cherry-picking data, I am providing sources for the claims I make. Here's another weakness in your argument: dreadnoughts don't carry compliments of fighters. Carriers do.

How about reading the other Carrier entry in the wiki.

Modifié par Katarian, 25 février 2010 - 09:59 .

[lost lupus]

marshalleck wrote...

I'm not cherry-picking data, I am providing sources for the claims I make. Here's another weakness in your argument: dreadnoughts don't carry compliments of fighters. Carriers do.

Dreadnoughts have a hangar deck within the hull

would you like a shovel?

[marshalleck]

lost lupus wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

I'm not cherry-picking data, I am providing sources for the claims I make. Here's another weakness in your argument: dreadnoughts don't carry compliments of fighters. Carriers do.

Dreadnoughts have a hangar deck within the hull

would you like a shovel?

Pfft, the Normandy has a hangar itself. That says nothing about a dreadnought's ability to field a defensive screen of fighters.

[Cyvian]

The SR-2 is as perfect as a 'Hit and Run' ship can be. Get in unnoticed, fire the devastating shot, and then run away with enough armor to take the few retaliation shots that are incoming. It's rather useless for other military tactics, like maintaing a blockade or delivering troops and/or machinery.

[lost lupus]

marshalleck wrote...

lost lupus wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

I'm not cherry-picking data, I am providing sources for the claims I make. Here's another weakness in your argument: dreadnoughts don't carry compliments of fighters. Carriers do.

Dreadnoughts have a hangar deck within the hull

would you like a shovel?

Pfft, the Normandy has a hangar itself. That says nothing about a dreadnought's ability to field a defensive screen of fighters.

All races provide their fleets with organic fighter support. Cruisers fit a handful in the space between the interior pressure hulls and exterior armor. Dreadnoughts have a hangar deck within the hull. Humans – who had only recently "graduated" from surface to space combat – were the first to build ships wielding fighters as the main armament

do you read codex entrys?
carriers are a human inovation as stated so what do you protected dreadnoughts beofre they came along?
or are you holding onto whatever string you grasp

Modifié par lost lupus, 25 février 2010 - 10:13 .

[Pauravi]

Yes it is bad ass, but.... does it have a BAR?

[marshalleck]

lost lupus wrote...

do you read codex entrys?
carriers are a human inovation as stated so what do you protected dreadnoughts beofre they came along?
or are you holding onto whatever string you grasp

I read it. Did you? It describes how packs of frigates and fighters are used to take down cruisers and dreadnoughts.

Also, I'll simply point to how utterly useless the Destiny Ascension was against geth frigates.

Modifié par marshalleck, 25 février 2010 - 10:16 .

[Aisynia]

Katarian wrote...
Overall though the Normandy isn't going to win a real fight against a Crusier [...]

Against a cruiser, oh yes it will. That's what the Collector ship was. Was.

[marshalleck]

I guess the argument is that if you tried to use the Normandy as if it were a dreadnought, you'd fail.

No kidding?

That doesn't say anything about its effectiveness though. Between its stealth capabilities, the enhanced weapons, armor, and shielding and EDI running cyberwarfare, the SR-2 is definitely one of the most dangerous ships in the galaxy.

Modifié par marshalleck, 25 février 2010 - 10:34 .

[lost lupus]

marshalleck wrote...

lost lupus wrote...

do you read codex entrys?
carriers are a human inovation as stated so what do you protected dreadnoughts beofre they came along?
or are you holding onto whatever string you grasp

I read it. Did you? It describes how packs of frigates and fighters are used to take down cruisers and dreadnoughts.

Also, I'll simply point to how utterly useless the Destiny Ascension was against geth frigates.

its like talking to a wall they were ambushed BY A FLEET AND HAD NO TIME TO COUNTER ATTACK
the citdel attack proved was that the other race's were caught napping by a FLEET!
most of the fleet was wiped out instantly your going to do that much damage with one ship?

make up your mind is this a stand up fight or do you want to succer punch them in the back of head?

[Aisynia]

marshalleck wrote...

I guess the argument is that if you tried to use the Normandy as if it were a dreadnought, you'd fail.

No kidding?

That doesn't say anything about its effectiveness though. Between its stealth capabilities, the enhanced weapons, armor, and shielding and EDI running cyberwarfare, the SR-2 is definitely one of the most dangerous ships in the galaxy.

It's the ultimate frigate.

[marshalleck]

lost lupus wrote...

make up your mind is this a stand up fight or do you want to succer punch them in the back of head?

This is exactly my point. Nobody uses a frigate like it's a dreadnought, so comparing the Normandy to one is useless. You can call wolfpack tactics a sucker punch if you want, but it doesn't change the fact that those tactics are precisely how you take down a dreadnought. This is about what's effective, not what's "fair" :happy:

[Aisynia]

marshalleck wrote...

lost lupus wrote...

make up your mind is this a stand up fight or do you want to succer punch them in the back of head?

This is exactly my point. Nobody uses a frigate like it's a dreadnought, so comparing the Normandy to one is useless. You can call wolfpack tactics a sucker punch if you want, but it doesn't change the fact that those tactics are precisely how you take down a dreadnought. This is about what's effective, not what's "fair" :happy:

Being fair doesn't mean winning. This is what the Normandy was designed around.. being unfair.

Modifié par Aisynia, 25 février 2010 - 11:08 .

[Skilled Seeker]

I must say the writers have created a pretty convincing naval setup to generate this much discussion and debate

[Gavinthelocust]

All it needs is a death star laser and a built in bar.