151 réponses à ce sujet

[Borschtbeet]

or at least performs below expectations?  I certainly am because I think Final Fantasy is basically the flagship JRPG series and seeing it's failure would send a strong message to JRPG developers that we've had enough of the same failed formula being recycled in every single one of their games and the only changes being made with each installment are fancier CG cutscenes.
Bioware has really redefined what an RPG should be by not only offering games with an incredible level of personalization but also giving the player an active role in the story where he/she actually participates.  After experiencing this in the likes of games like Dragon Age, KOTOR, and Mass Effect it is impossible for me to go back through the play 1 hour for every 2 hours of cutscene style that has become so prevalent in big budget JRPGs.

I realize some people out there actually like JRPGs but I think the consumer tide is turning against them.  Bioware games are all must haves whereas Square/Enix has been under performing.  Square/Enix sees Final Fantasy XIII as their salvation even though the game is just like Final Fantasy X except with better graphics and cutscenes.  If Square Enix fails, maybe we'll be so lucky as to see JRPG developers show some humility and take some inspiration from the people who are now getting it right.

[Pious_Augustus]

Actually they switched up their formula. A New Generation of Japanese Game Makers took up the mantle of popular JRPG franchises and crashed and burned them all. It's pretty sad every major franchise is almost gone even Xenosaga, Breath of Fire and countless others when they decided to give the game's a new direction from people who had failed series like SaGA and Vagrant Story.


If you ask me they need to go back to their old formula

Every Final Fantasy remake thus far has been done by outsourced companies because people are not going to buy a remake from the current staff. Matrix Software who has been doing their remakes has always respected the old staff and brought them aboard so they can do it right

Modifié par Pious_Augustus, 25 février 2010 - 07:57 .

[Godak]

Just because we prefer a certain type of RPG doesn't mean that everyone else is entitled to our opinion.



With that said, I could care less about FFXIII, and I could care less if it created a new world order, or turned out to be a total flop.

[Shipwr3K]

I dont really care if it fails or not, I used to be a fan of jrpgs up to the psx. I just prefer western rpgs now. I will however still buy FFXIII, but after I am done with awakening tho.

[Borschtbeet]

I really loved Vagrant Story. It was unique for a JRPG since it's emphasis was on the depth of it's gameplay rather than some cheesy melodramatic cutscenes.

The game had the best graphics on the original playstation and the atmosphere, music, and story were all top notch.



Also, it's one of the very very few JRPGs where the main character is NOT an adolescent. That is a nice change.

[Pious_Augustus]

Borschtbeet wrote...

I really loved Vagrant Story. It was unique for a JRPG since it's emphasis was on the depth of it's gameplay rather than some cheesy melodramatic cutscenes.
The game had the best graphics on the original playstation and the atmosphere, music, and story were all top notch.

Also, it's one of the very very few JRPGs where the main character is NOT an adolescent. That is a nice change.

If you like Vagrant Story then the current JRPGs are just like that little story all action and thats why the base of JRPGs are now gone. The base from the old way of doing JRPGs is stronger then the current base which honestly didn't like JRPGs too begin with.

Western RPGs formula for them becoming popular was to ditch the 1st Person RPGs. People didn't play Western RPGs in massive numbers was not because of the story or how big the game was. Daggerfall was the size of Britian, literally and dwarfed Morrowind in every single way....problem was they didn't  have 1st Person RPGs.

When Western RPGs finally included 3rd Person Mode even though the 1st Person mode was still active people flocked to the series and still in massive numbers thouigh 3rd person mode is broke in Bethseda games people still use 3rd person over 1st person view

All this happened around the same time JRPG's with every to lose kicked off the old staffs and the way things where done and brought in directors and staff's from failed series.

Western RPGs didn't have anything to loose by attempting to change because no one bought them in  massive numbers. You'll never, ever seen another Jedi Knight game unless it has a 3rd person only view. Once Bioware came in Jedi Knight series was dead and gone forever

Modifié par Pious_Augustus, 25 février 2010 - 08:17 .

[Seagloom]

Gotta agree on Vagrant Story. It was a great, underrated game. Also gotta agree on the protagonist thing. One of the reasons I loved Persona 2: Punishment was because several of the characters were in their late twenties or older. It made it easier for me to relate to them and felt fresh after an endless parade of games where I'm controlling a teenager.

As far as FFXIII is concerned, I'm indifferent. It's naive to think there won't be another similar Final Fantasy game if this one tanks. S/E is very timid when it comes to serious innovation, it seems. How it sells here could impact future design or marketing decisions, but that isn't going to be nearly as important to SquareEnix as how it fared in Japan.

Modifié par Seagloom, 25 février 2010 - 08:31 .

[MerinTB]

Not I. I hope it does reasonably well.



I'm weird though. I want to play it, and the last Final Fantasy (since 8) that even interested me enough to wish I could play it was X-2. Sorry, the pop-singer-trio angle interested me.



Never owned a Playstation, however, so FF3/6 was SNES and FF7 was on the PC - XIII will be the first I get to even try so I'm excited.

[mattp420]

Sounds like Nier is the Square-Enix game for you.

Not sure why you would want FFXIII to not perform well.  Should that happen, it may cause Square-Enix to release less games in the United States.

FFXIII already sold more than 1 million copies on the first day in Japan¹.  To date it has sold over 1.8 million copies².  To understand the significance of this fact - ME2 [released in 2 markets (US and EU)] has sold about 1.45 million xbox 360 copies in the 4 weeks out³.  Final Fantasy XIII  sold over 1.5 million in it's first week in Japan.


¹news.vgchartz.com/news.php
²www.vgchartz.com/games/game.php
³www.vgchartz.com/games/game.php

Modifié par mattp420, 25 février 2010 - 09:16 .

[Arbiter Libera]

As much as I'll personally grieve if FF13 fails in the west I also think it's time that JRPG genre as a whole adapts to this day and age. But then of course, it could be that I've simply become jaded over time.

Of course, they're adding the shiny and action coating over it (at the expense of actual RPG), but that's all superficial - JRPGs need to change on a deeper level, mainly because they've literary remained the same since their conception, so to speak. And I'm not denying there is and always will be a following of traditional JRPGs (something that games like Lost Odyssey prove), but the genre itself is so archaic it's almost hard to grasp how come it's managed to stay afloat up to this point were it not for the rabid fans in the East. It needs to lose the trappings that alienate it from us in the West (their take on characters is basically always a take on an archetype, more than a character as a unique individual, something that was most likely carried over from manga and anime which are both usually tied into JRPG as a whole, etc).

Basically, they gotta get original if they want to attract western audiences and, from what it seems, if they intend to keep their old fans given that most of them were now exposed to western RPGs (from BioWare to Bethesda and others) and they've tasted the new stuff.

Modifié par Arbiter Libera, 25 février 2010 - 09:14 .

[A Killing Sound]

I'd like to see XIII not do so well. Sqaure's standards have been slipping for awhile now (*cough* Star Ocean the Last Hope), and a wake up call would be nice to encourage them to make a better product, as opposed to keep spinning off sequels like X-2 and Dierge of Cerberus.

If lack of sales causes Sqaure to withhold products to the US, I'd miss out on another over hyped lame RPG.  No big deal.

Modifié par A Killing Sound, 25 février 2010 - 09:17 .

[mattp420]

America's Preorders Chart, 20th February 2010

Pos Name
Console
Weeks  
Change   
Total


1
God of War III
PS3
4
26,379
392,104


2
Battlefield: Bad
Company 2
X360
2
77,566
341,927


3
Battlefield: Bad
Company 2
PS3
2
29,804
278,693


4
Pokémon Heart
Gold / Soul Silver Version
DS
4
36,198
242,465


5
Final Fantasy XIII
PS3
3
46,382
240,108


6
Tom Clancy's
Splinter Cell: Conviction
X360
8
6,990
154,747


7
Heavy Rain
PS3
1
22,500
101,953


8
Final Fantasy
XIII
X360
3
14,055
101,566



3 out of the top 8 are JRPGs.  2 of which are Final Fantasy XIII.  If you click the link you'll also notice Dragon Age: Origins - Awakenings trailing even Lunar Silver Star: Harmony.  Another notable (in terms of RPGs) is the WRPG, Alpha Protocol -- who's xbox 360 version is just outside the top 10 (probably also because of its just now confirmed release date being so far away -- 6/1/2010)

I would also like to point out that FFXIII, Pokemon, and Heavy Rain do not have collector's editions available in North America while the other 4 games do.

Modifié par mattp420, 25 février 2010 - 10:40 .

[Mordaedil]

Why would I wish upon someone else the pain of a failed product? That's bordering on masochism and isn't a very admirable trait for any person to undertake.



It's like, if I were to say on these forums "Oh boy, I sure wish Borschtbeet catches a lethal disease and dies horribly as a result. Who is with me on this".



It's really low.

[the_one_54321]

Mordaedil wrote...

Why would I wish upon someone else the pain of a failed product? That's bordering on masochism and isn't a very admirable trait for any person to undertake.

It's like, if I were to say on these forums "Oh boy, I sure wish Borschtbeet catches a lethal disease and dies horribly as a result, because he doesn't like the kind of games I like. Who is with me on this".

It's really low.

Pretty much this. Bold statement added.

Hundreds of thousands of people love those games as-is. If it ain't broke don't fix it.

[MightySword]

if it's truly suck and the "majority" of players are fed up with it, it will fail without you wishing for it.

I think you wish for it to fail not because of the game itself, but because you just want to give your ego a boots. You hate the game, and if it fails, that mean you is right and your taste is superior, feel good, right? If the game is successful though, that would mean you're wrong and you're of the minority ... blasphemy isn't it?

Just a precaution warning friend, be careful with that mentality, it's the reason behind most homicide when people facing a crisis.

Modifié par MightySword, 26 février 2010 - 05:42 .

[Tyrax Lightning]

I'm a FF Fan, & want FF13 to succeed. I also hope Square-Enix isn't slacking off in quality.

[The_Abyss]

I'd probably buy it if there was a PC version - it IS final fantasy, and I haven't played those in a while so I would like to see what its like now. Too cheap to fork out money for a PS3 to see what its like.

[SleeplessInSigil]

I for one hope this thread fails, which it has.



Square-Enix could literally package a piece of feces and label it "Final Fantasy" and it'd still sell more than the best WRPG ever made. Why? Because JRPGs on the whole are just that much more entertaining to play, hence the high expectations and loyalty of many fans.



Considering Final Fantasy to be the "flagship" JRPG title alone shows considerable ignorance as it is (even if you only count the titles that've officially made it to the US,) but anyone who takes up a campaign of hate for anything has problems resulting from nothing to do with the product itself. There are other ways to provide input towards directing the future of the series, and they've worked: this will be the best game in the series since several years now.


Why does FF13's success or lack thereof affect you in any way, anyway? You'll still be getting your millionth medieval-Europe LoTR-rehash in Dragon Age: Awakening.
Just stick to your dwarves and elves and oooh dragons!   and let others have their fun however they see fit.



but hey, you're free to go stand outside the shops with a picket sign, if you want. ★

Modifié par SleeplessInSigil, 27 février 2010 - 12:01 .

[Seraosha]

Pious_Augustus wrote...

Western RPGs formula for them becoming popular was to ditch the 1st Person RPGs. People didn't play Western RPGs in massive numbers was not because of the story or how big the game was. Daggerfall was the size of Britian, literally and dwarfed Morrowind in every single way....problem was they didn't  have 1st Person RPGs.

When Western RPGs finally included 3rd Person Mode even though the 1st Person mode was still active people flocked to the series and still in massive numbers thouigh 3rd person mode is broke in Bethseda games people still use 3rd person over 1st person view

All this happened around the same time JRPG's with every to lose kicked off the old staffs and the way things where done and brought in directors and staff's from failed series.

Western RPGs didn't have anything to loose by attempting to change because no one bought them in  massive numbers. You'll never, ever seen another Jedi Knight game unless it has a 3rd person only view. Once Bioware came in Jedi Knight series was dead and gone forever

Sorry, but you're driving me mad with this. The success of any game series is not predicated on whether it employs First or Third Person view mode. I think you're one of the only people in the world hung up on that. I'm afraid Oblivion was better in First Person as well fella,  no question.

What I think actually happened to make Western RPG's more successful is that Western Development houses started developing RPG's that weren't diabolical. But they still happen. Two Worlds is an example that instantly pops to the front of my mind.  I think it's extremely silly to slate JRPG's on the one hand when Western output is hardly universal in it's quality.

Indeed, it's even worse to see folk moan about the lack of innovation and how JRPG's keep being made to the same set formula. I would hardly call Bioware much more innovative. Each new RPG has the same core storyline and character progression.

To adapt the lovely example of the previous poster, Bioware could package up faeces, slap a made by Bioware logo on it, and their games would still sell like hotcakes :-|

[Seagloom]

Seraosha wrote...

To adapt the lovely example of the previous poster, Bioware could package up faeces, slap a made by Bioware logo on it, and their games would still sell like hotcakes :-|

I just want to point out that Jade Empire didn't do very well for them. It sold decently enough but was far from a chart topping title. This was following their amazing commercial success with KotOR; which one would think earned them lots of points with blind shoppers. I don't think BioWare can ride on name recognition alone.

Modifié par Seagloom, 27 février 2010 - 02:29 .

[vengEXwolf]

Sounds like the author of this post is jealous that mass effect or dragon age haven't gotten as much attention as the final fantasy series has. I enjoy final fantasy greatly, can't say I like how it gets repetitive or how long it is, but I love to play the game. I love all of bioware's games as well. I don't wish the sky fall upon square enix just because they are so successful at what they do. Final fantasy games will never die because no one is ready to let go of jrpg especially not the kind square enix produces. Colorful, strong story, interesting characters, crazy clothes and hairstyles which will become next years fashion almost lol.

[vengEXwolf]

Most fans of JRPGs in America and the UK and any other westernized nation is that the japanese will dull down their rpgs to meet our standards and our likes. Many of square enix products have slowly been adding features that they specifically kept western audiences in mind when incorporation. Many other fanchises have done this as well, such as street fighter even, a different game but still it has added characters that are very out of the box for its style to try and appeal to western audiences.



So if final fantasy was so bad, and not superior or at least liked more than many western rpg games, why would everyone be so worried it would turn into trash by being dictated by western style?

[Seraosha]

Seagloom wrote...

Seraosha wrote...

To adapt the lovely example of the previous poster, Bioware could package up faeces, slap a made by Bioware logo on it, and their games would still sell like hotcakes :-|

I just want to point out that Jade Empire didn't do very well for them. It sold decently enough but was far from a chart topping title. This was following their amazing commercial success with KotOR; which one would think earned them lots of points with blind shoppers. I don't think BioWare can ride on name recognition alone.

To be fair, we're talking about the original Xbox which had a tiny installed base dedicated all but solely to the FPS. I imagine it was 'Star Wars' alone that got so many people interested in Kotor. Still, I think Bioware's continued presence and success in the console space must be doing some good for the BioWare brand. Especially with the cross genre melding, what with Mass Effect 2 practically being a shooter in the mould of Gears of War.

[SleeplessInSigil]

vengEXwolf wrote...

Most fans of JRPGs in America and the UK and any other westernized nation is that the japanese will dull down their rpgs to meet our standards and our likes.

That's mostly thanks to the translation and localization companies in the US, though.

However, while actual cuts made in the American versions of Japanese media have faded out, the Japanese themselves have culturally begun to adapt, or want to emulate, American ..styles, in their media.

Modifié par SleeplessInSigil, 27 février 2010 - 05:42 .

[Borschtbeet]

I think my thread has been misunderstood. I don't want it to fail just out of spite for Square/Enix, I want it to fail in hopes that it will cause Square/Enix to rethink their strategy.  I used to like JRPGs but they cannot hold a candle to the likes of Bioware these days.  The problem I have with JRPGs is their over-emphasis on cinematic JRPG meoldrama which just no longer does anything for me after being spoiled by the fully interactive plots of WRPGs like in Dragon Age and Mass Effect.
The plots in Bioware games are well written and mature and I just cannot stand the same cliched, trite story of an adolescent saving the world that has been recycled time and time again in every JRPG that gets released.
I think Final Fantasy XIII won't fail in the sense that it won't be profitable but I think if it falls a bit below expectations that may be enough for Square/Enix to break away from the formula that has long since grown stale.

My wanting Final Fantasy XIII to fail isn't about some fanboy JRPG VS WRPG rivalry.  It's about JRPGs rekindling the interest of myself and many others who have long since abandoned Square.

Modifié par Borschtbeet, 27 février 2010 - 06:54 .