151 réponses à ce sujet

[MerinTB]

I've played 6, 7, part of 8, Tactics, Tactics Advance.

6 maybe had a better story than 13 does so far. But 13 is the best paced and most fun of all of them, IMO.



But I'm more a fan of streamlining, quick-paced games - not games that let you spend a half-hour on your inventory, that you spend time running back and forth between different locations (towns and dungeons) repeatedly to sell loot or buy equipment, that have wide open areas you run around in endlessly with random encounters and nothing story-specific happening...



It's fine if those elements appeal to you. The quick pacing of FF XIII appeals greatly to me. I love how it's a combat or two before a quick little cut-scene, how you run very short distances through beautifully rendered areas - how there aren't endless branching paths on the way that make me feel like I need to explore each one but always ending up feeling disappointed that I wasted the time for dead ends and maybe a piece of treasure I really didn't need.



But then I was also never a player who cared about achievements or finding hidden items or locations or any of that stuff.

[MerinTB]

And just two asides = the ATB of FF is not true turn-based. You want turn based, load the original Fallout or load in and SSI AD&D game. When the combat occurs in real-time and the enemy goes whether you've told your character to do something or not, that's more real-time to me. Turn-based, to me, means each character or player takes a turn - a turn that is their own and no one else goes until they are done with their turn.



And I've seen once or twice FMV mentioned in reference to the cut scenes. FMV means full motion video - and it means live action, not animated.

http://en.wikipedia....ideo_based_game

http://en.wikipedia....FMV-based_games

[MightySword]

MerinTB wrote...
But I'm more a fan of streamlining, quick-paced games - not games that let you spend a half-hour on your inventory, that you spend time running back and forth between different locations (towns and dungeons) repeatedly to sell loot or buy equipment, that have wide open areas you run around in endlessly with random encounters and nothing story-specific happening...

For the most part, FF games are never like that. What you descripe is more like a dungeon crawler RPG ala Diablo. Inventory in FF games? What's that? If anything I think I spent more time looking at the inventory screen in FFXIII than any other previous tittles due to the weapon upgrade system.The slow pace in previous FF games came from it taking time to give full angle at the characters and having the narrative properly leading the story.

The pacing in FFXIII took that away and make all of those feel disconected and flat. You see the drama, but most of the time there is no buildup and neither suspense. Most of them are just small pockets of drama that drop out of nowhere and gone before you know it. Instead of having full blow and proper dialogue in which characters talk properly, FFXIII uses a lot of Hollywood style "cool" one liner to mark up the characters, which I think fail pretty hard.


Like I said, the FFXIII's creators, producer Yoshinori Kitase and director Motomu Toriyama in an interview said that the pace of FFXIII is inspired by Call of Duty and now I can clearly see they're speaking the truth. So really, for a game like FF which is traditionally having one of the most heavy narrative and story in JRPG this pacing has a profound effect. Even if the story was good, there is no way it can be fully portraited. The pace in FFXIII makes the characters feel light, the story feels light, the plot feels light, the NPC feels light ...etc... As far as gameplay goes, I live the pace. I just wish the narrative itself was better adapted.

Modifié par MightySword, 18 mars 2010 - 04:28 .

[Tyrax Lightning]

MerinTB wrote...

I've played 6, 7, part of 8, Tactics, Tactics Advance.
6 maybe had a better story than 13 does so far. But 13 is the best paced and most fun of all of them, IMO.

But I'm more a fan of streamlining, quick-paced games - not games that let you spend a half-hour on your inventory, that you spend time running back and forth between different locations (towns and dungeons) repeatedly to sell loot or buy equipment, that have wide open areas you run around in endlessly with random encounters and nothing story-specific happening...

It's fine if those elements appeal to you. The quick pacing of FF XIII appeals greatly to me. I love how it's a combat or two before a quick little cut-scene, how you run very short distances through beautifully rendered areas - how there aren't endless branching paths on the way that make me feel like I need to explore each one but always ending up feeling disappointed that I wasted the time for dead ends and maybe a piece of treasure I really didn't need.

But then I was also never a player who cared about achievements or finding hidden items or locations or any of that stuff.

FF 1, 2, 4, 5, 7, 8, (8 was the 1st of the Series I played that got me into the FF Series in the 1st place. Very rough way to start, but I managed. Took over 4 years & more than 4 playthroughs to beat FF8.) 9, & 10. FF 3, & 6, are on my to-do list, & FF 10-2 & 12 I am undecided.

I like the fact that I will be able to play FF 13 & not have to worry about having to farm & grind till brain burn. Hidden secrets & stuff like that can be cool, but I tend to be unable to find much of that kinda stuff on my own, & can live without it. (I love the FF Series, but after beating the game, I had to Strategy Guide many of the secrets of many of the games. I'm no Sherlock Holmes.)

No game character is gonna have universal appeal for a very simple reason... No person of any type whatsoever is ever gonna have universal appeal. Differing styles & personalities are never gonna have full compatibility with all, that's just plain part of Human Nature. One person's will be another person's . There's no avoiding this.

Lastly, i've heard that FF 13 was previously gonna be on the PS2 & got transferred to the PS3 when it turned out to come out in time for FF 13 to benefit from it. That always buggers stuff up. Combine that with the fact that FF 13 is the 1st PS3 game of the series & it's normal for there to be some flaws. What 1st game of a new console doesn't? It doesn't help that the PS3 itself, I found it's Specs, & it only has 256MB of RAM. WTB!!? What is it with Console Makers being unwilling to bother putting a REAL amount of RAM into their stuff? So if ya wanna blame the game flaws on something, blame it on the Console. I know RAM costs an arm & a leg & 1/2 a torso, but I would think the benefits would far outweigh the costs.

My 1 1/2 cents.

[MerinTB]

MightySword wrote...
For the most part, FF games are never like that. What you descripe is more like a dungeon crawler RPG ala Diablo. Inventory in FF games? What's that? If anything I think I spent more time looking at the inventory screen in FFXIII than any other previous tittles due to the weapon upgrade system.The slow pace in previous FF games came from it taking time to give full angle at the characters and having the narrative properly leading the story.

I'm about 9 hours in now (didn't get to play yesterday) but I've almost paid NO attention to inventory at this point.

You find a new weapon or item, and if you don't already know what it is you look quickly at it - takes a few seconds - and equip it or don't.

I've really not needed to buy anything, and have money stockpiling as I've not had the urge.  I've used one Phoenix down and maybe 6 potions total.  I bought 2 Iron Bangles.  I've had weapons switch once for each character.

9 hours, and maybe a total of twenty minutes on inventory so far - and probably most of that was reading item descriptions and store inventories (all of which are short.)

This may get to be much more later on, but comparing this to DAO or all the crystals I remember in 7... I prefer this, actually.

Personal preference.  I play a game for fun, not for work grinding and killing time.  To me scrolling through inventories and dealing with endless items you pick up that are useless except as things to sell (glaring at ME 1 right now) is work and grinding and not fun to me.  You may enjoy it.

As for the "flat" and "one liners" - we'll just have to disagree.  Sometimes "less is more", and as most of my writing instructors said, if you can say in one paragraph what you said in 3 pages, do it in a paragraph.

[MerinTB]

http://en.wikipedia....al_Fantasy_XIII



Just for a general overview of something outside of a few people on a forum's opinions.

[MightySword]

you seems to misunderstand what I said. There has never a need to manage the inventory in a FF game like ... ever so I don't understand why you draw the comparision of "30 min inventory management, go back and forth to sell loot" thing from. Of course you don't do that in FFXIII, but neither you ever do it in any FF. I probably spent 1 minute max each time I visit the inventory in previous FF game, I may spend two minutes here in FFXIII, I don't think that makes a difference?

Also I don't think FF games really want you to grind unless you're a power player and want to steam roll over everything. The secret finding and grinding part also have nothing to do with the narrative pacing. Personally I never go after them myself either, in FFX I only have one ultimate weapon for Tidus, in FFXIII I skipped most of the generic side quests and rarely fight a battle twice for experience. But I don't see how that affect the "narrative" pacing. I think you're talking about the gameplay pacing, which I have no complain. But again I'm talking about the narrative pacing.

About the one liner, I'm not talking about whether the characters making a draw out speech (which they do sometime) or making something short and concise. No, I'm talking about cheap and supposed to be cool and devoid personality one liner that you see young gang members or pre-mature highschool immitates an Hollywood actors because they think it makes them sound mature and cool ... which it doesn't.

Modifié par MightySword, 18 mars 2010 - 05:19 .

[Twitchmonkey]

I don't know how far you've gotten in FFXIII, but I would say that unless you want to have a really tough time in some fights, some grinding is pretty necessary. If you use good grinding spots, however, you can probably get by with a total of only 3-4 hours of grinding, which isn't much over the course of a 50+ hour game.



Inventory management isn't important at all, I agree, I didn't buy my first items until I got into upgrading my weapons in chapter 10, I didn't buy any accessories until just before the final boss, and I've never bought a weapon.

[MerinTB]

MightySword wrote...

There has never a need to manage the inventory in a FF game like ... ever so I don't understand why you draw the comparision of "30 min inventory management, go back and forth to sell loot" thing from. Of course you don't do that in FFXIII, but neither you ever do it in any FF. I probably spent 1 minute max each time I visit the inventory in previous FF game, I may spend two minutes here in FFXIII, I don't think that makes a difference?

Also I don't think FF games really want you to grind unless you're a power player and want to steam roll over everything. The secret finding and grinding part also have nothing to do with the narrative pacing. Personally I never go after them myself either, in FFX I only have one ultimate weapon for Tidus, in FFXIII I skipped most of the generic side quests and rarely fight a battle twice for experience. But I don't see how that affect the "narrative" pacing. I think you're talking about the gameplay pacing, which I have no complain. But again I'm talking about the narrative pacing.

You are going to say this doesn't count as Final Fantasy, but it is the last one I played -
FF Tactics Advanced

Don't tell me I didn't grind endlessly in combats, and don't tell me I didn't spend forever on items and buy and selling.  I know what I did.  That game was full of inventory management.

It has been a long time, but I remember 7 having a lot of back and forth with crystals in your weapons and such and I remember devoting a lot of time to that.

8, which I didn't get far in, I spent way too much time with that card game.  You can say I could have ignored that part of the game, and that cards don't count as inventory - but I was spending a lot of time doing something to just aquire cards.  That, as far as I am concerned, is time spend on items / inventory.

JRPGs have deep inventory systems from what I've seen - with all those potions, all the status effect causing and status effect curing items, etc.  I did not play 9, 10, 12 - nor 4 to earlier - but the rest had random encounters and lots of items.

[MightySword]

JRPG always have a massive quantity of items, but that doesn't mean it's deep or one have to use it all the time. Honestly, out of the gazillion items in FF, or most JRPG really I don't really pay attention much to a couple of initial healing items. For example in FF games I bare remember any item beyond Potion and PhoenixDown, plus a few special items to upgrade weapon and such.

Your first post gave the impression you're talking about something like Demon's Soul, Diablo, Oblivion ...etc... in which you have to spend time fine tuning and twisting your equipment, and hauling loot to sell for money. Most JRPG is not like that, and FFXIII's inventory is pretty standard fare as far as JRPG's inventory goes.


The grinding aspect of JRPG while is not a myth, I think also often blow out of proportion. You can beat FFVIII as low as level 50, or beat it at level 100, same for FFIX or X. I recently discovered that playing Xenogears again. When I first play it (long time ago) I grinded a lot, since that was a common mindset in the day, you play JRPG you should grind, period. The last play I finished was just about 3 months ago, I beat the game without any grinding, of course the fights is longer, I have to use more items ...etc... but alas, no grinding. That makes me think "huh, was grinding a neccessity?" One of the thing that JRPG differ from Western RPG is their "side" stuffs are usually made for power players and completionist. (I'm not a completionist but I must admit, I know more completionist players than the opposite players). So yeah, you will have to grind if you want to go after an ultimate weapon or beating an optional boss (which usually about 5-10 time tougher even the final boss). But as far as just get by and complete the game, I don't think a lot of grinding is needed. In fact, I think with modern JRPG (tittles released within 5 years), none of them I ever need to grind if I just want to beat the main story.


And btw, I'm sure you know I would say that, but considering the mini games as part of inventory management is ... stretching things a bit too far to make a point

Modifié par MightySword, 19 mars 2010 - 12:33 .

[Skynet877]

Failed in USA? Hell no, tons of people I know both online and in real life are playing this.

[fairandbalancedfan]

This thread creeps me out. I make really lame Japanese jokes, but it is made in jest. But some of you better be joking, because shizz isn't funny.

[MightySword]

fairandbalancedfan wrote...
This thread creeps me out. I make really lame Japanese jokes, but it is made in jest. But some of you better be joking, because shizz isn't funny.

If there are weaboo on one side, there certainly will be an equivalent on the other side, no?

[Panderfringe]

fairandbalancedfan wrote...

This thread creeps me out. I make really lame Japanese jokes, but it is made in jest. But some of you better be joking, because shizz isn't funny.

This is the internet, remember? Folks here are kind of insane and more than a little dumb. If they don't like something it is their moral duty to make sure nobody ever enjoys it. Ever.

[SithLordExarKun]

Only weaboos and gooks think FFXIII is an amazing revolutionizing game. Seriously it is imo one of the worst in the series next to X-2(which is a traversity).

[Mordaedil]

Panderfringe wrote...

fairandbalancedfan wrote...

This thread creeps me out. I make really lame Japanese jokes, but it is made in jest. But some of you better be joking, because shizz isn't funny.

This is the internet, remember? Folks here are kind of insane and more than a little dumb. If they don't like something it is their moral duty to make sure nobody ever enjoys it. Ever.

This might be the Internet, but this is Bioware's Internet and we have higher expectancies of our custodians here.

[the_one_54321]

SithLordExarKun wrote...
Only weaboos and gooks think FFXIII is an amazing revolutionizing game. Seriously it is imo one of the worst in the series next to X-2(which is a traversity).

Racist comments now? You are so reported.

[MightySword]

SithLordExarKun wrote...
Only weaboos and gooks think FFXIII is an amazing revolutionizing game. Seriously it is imo one of the worst in the series next to X-2(which is a traversity).

I had been accused of being weaboos and wapanese on many occassions (some folks posting here can testify that), yet I still think FFXIII is not a good game. So ... where do I fit?


You already state that in your opinion it's the worst FF so I don't understand why you want to brand the people who do enjoy it. (Unless IMO does not stand for In My Opinion). You said you read the review I wrote so you know how much I hate and dislike the game, but no need to get hostile to the other opinion.

Modifié par MightySword, 19 mars 2010 - 06:44 .

[Mordaedil]

Gooks, you mean, right?



Weeaboos, as far as I know isn't a racist term, as it just indicates a western race falling in love with eastern culture to the point of defending it against all criticism and putting it on a pedestal.

[Mordaedil]

MightySword wrote...

I had been accused of being weaboos and wapanese on many occassions (some folks posting here can testify that), yet I still think FFXIII is not a good game. So ... where do I fit?


You already state that in your opinion it's the worst FF so I don't understand why you want to brand the people who do enjoy it. (Unless IMO does not stand for In My Opinion). You said you read the review I wrote so you know how much I hate and dislike the game, but no need to get hostile to the other opinion.

Seeing as you're actually of eastern culture in heridatary, I'd say you fit in as an "otaku" or possibly just a geek, depending on what proximity to an insult you want to go.

Otaku is a very derogatory term, more so than geek is, anyway.

[MightySword]

[quote]Mordaedil wrote...
Weeaboos, as far as I know isn't a racist
term, as it just indicates a western race falling in love with eastern
culture to the point of defending it against all criticism and putting
it on a pedestal.[/quote]

I believe Weeaboo doesn't mean
something like that. It's more like an ... empty Otaku so to speak.
Weeaboo is people who think they're Otaku ... just without the actual
knowledge of an Otaku. Otaku might not be so healthy, but you can't
challenge what they do know on whatatever subject they're obssessed
with. Weeboo however, most of the time while sharing most of the trait
of an Otaku, their knowledge is taken for grain of saint.
[/quote]


[quote]Mordaedil wrote...
Seeing as you're actually of eastern culture in heridatary, I'd say you fit in as an "otaku" or possibly just a geek, depending on what proximity to an insult you want to go.

Otaku is a very derogatory term, more so than geek is, anyway.[/quote]

I don't think I'm qualified as an Otaku yet. So far I has been very successful in warding off the temptation of purchasing expensive collector items. I have some mecha assembling sets but I don't have an army of figurines/dolls for my favorite anime characters.:innocent:


What I said earlier though, unless you missed it. If you gonna have some weaboo on one side, you will always have some equivalent people on the other side really. I have a passionated interest in Japan, however sometime I wonder why a lot of Westerners seem automatically make that a bad thing. You should remember our exchange, I might be founded defending the JRPG side of the fence (not the case right now however), however I haven't been founded wrong. The reason I usually defend JRPG because I think a lot of Western gamer criticize the gerne base on out of date stereotype (and I think I came pretty close to prove you're guilty last time ). Shameless advertising here, but if you read the review I wrote for FFXIII, you would see I have no problem diskling or hating a JRPG, I just wish that if someone has to hate something, please do so with the right reason. Example:


There are two type of people who hating FFXIII: 

+ Hate it for all the differences (good or bad), hate it for feeling a disconection to the FF feel. I admit, there is a good chance some people in this group are weeboo or long time FF fan. One thing in common though, they DID play the game, and find the reason to hate it.

+ Hate it out of an out of date Prejudice and Stereotype, people who had, and maybe only played a few flagships JRPG tittles and assume that's how JRPG have always been. The TC of this topic serves as a pretty good example for this group (and frankly, a lot of people here do). Like I said, it's kinda ironic that this thread was opened as a rant how the game should fail so it can change and not sticking with a formular and now why a number of FF fans hating the game because that's exact reason, it changed too damn much.

You might say what's the point, either way we both hate it. But I think there is a big difference, if that line of thought make you think I'm an Otaku or geeks or whatever than hardly anything can change your mind. Yes, my interest was "passionated" enough that I manage to teach myself Japanese in 3 years, is that a bad thing?

[Mordaedil]

As long as you don't collect naked plastic figurines, underage girl bed-pillows, used panties or start feeling girls up their skirt on the bus, I don't think there's anything negative about a hobby or trying to defend it while respecting that it might not be for everyone.



After all, gaming was at one point not everyones cup of tea.

[Chained_Creator]

Japanese history and culture is pretty awesome, but that's probably not what everyone is talking about. <.<;

[RyuAzai]

I agree with the OP in the way that I now feel spoiled by Bioware.



All my Rpgs were ALWAYS JPRGS. Final fantasy, Suikoden, Dragon Quest, etc.



I played them because they were the rpgs, sometimes I laugh at the characters sometimes I enjoyed the story. But I never felt like my actions help define the story. The only thing I had control over was how powerful I could level my character, and what and if I could go get those secret weapons.



Then I came across bioware games, and I found a few times in KOTOR when I joking picked the option to kill someone... My character actually did it! A quick reload there(I was always a light sider) I released that I could have greater control over my gaming experience.



The rest is history as my fandom rose for bioware my taste for JRPGS went on the decline.



It is almost as if I couldn't go back to that, even though I love the worlds and memories of those old games.



So basically I can understand the feeling of the OP.