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#8376
MoSa09

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Liso66 wrote...

MoSa09 wrote...

Better be an idiot than a traitor who sacrifices the son of his friend because of his fears. Think about the letters of RtO.
He did sacrifice his king cause he knew that his daughter was most probably barren and Cailan was to dump her, and that Cailan was maybe ingaged with a woman form Orlais. He was not caring for his country, though me may believed that, he was caring for his own unreasoned fears and hsi believes (like he did with MAric) he always knows best and can shove other people around to do what he wants or kill them. He deserves nothing better than he got


Those letters were not so clear that Cailan was going to marry anyone else.  Loghain assumes imo..  It does not change the fact Cailan KNEW that battle was lost before it started. And he would not wait for backup..  idiot


So if you assume your king might dump your daughter and is an idiot you can kill him and thousands of his man, exposing your country to be overrun and enslaved by a ruthless enemy in the process?
But killing that very same man after you also realized he harbored a ruthless man like Howe (i also beleive he knew about Howe's plans and supported or at least agreed to them) and sold his poorest as slaves (he didn't even has issues with that) is a wrong thing to do?
You have interesting priorities. Killing thousands cause you think their leader is an idiot is alright, but killing one man who is a traitor and a slaver is wrong?

#8377
MaxQuartiroli

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Liso66 wrote...

MoSa09 wrote...

Better be an idiot than a traitor who sacrifices the son of his friend because of his fears. Think about the letters of RtO.
He did sacrifice his king cause he knew that his daughter was most probably barren and Cailan was to dump her, and that Cailan was maybe ingaged with a woman form Orlais. He was not caring for his country, though me may believed that, he was caring for his own unreasoned fears and hsi believes (like he did with MAric) he always knows best and can shove other people around to do what he wants or kill them. He deserves nothing better than he got


Those letters were not so clear that Cailan was going to marry anyone else.  Loghain assumes imo..  It does not change the fact Cailan KNEW that battle was lost before it started. And he would not wait for backup..  idiot


Indeed... And also Cailan's behaviour in my opinion is really appalling

#8378
MaxQuartiroli

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MoSa09 wrote...

Liso66 wrote...

MoSa09 wrote...

Better be an idiot than a traitor who sacrifices the son of his friend because of his fears. Think about the letters of RtO.
He did sacrifice his king cause he knew that his daughter was most probably barren and Cailan was to dump her, and that Cailan was maybe ingaged with a woman form Orlais. He was not caring for his country, though me may believed that, he was caring for his own unreasoned fears and hsi believes (like he did with MAric) he always knows best and can shove other people around to do what he wants or kill them. He deserves nothing better than he got


Those letters were not so clear that Cailan was going to marry anyone else.  Loghain assumes imo..  It does not change the fact Cailan KNEW that battle was lost before it started. And he would not wait for backup..  idiot


So if you assume your king might dump your daughter and is an idiot you can kill him and thousands of his man, exposing your country to be overrun and enslaved by a ruthless enemy in the process?
But killing that very same man after you also realized he harbored a ruthless man like Howe (i also beleive he knew about Howe's plans and supported or at least agreed to them) and sold his poorest as slaves (he didn't even has issues with that) is a wrong thing to do?
You have interesting priorities. Killing thousands cause you think their leader is an idiot is alright, but killing one man who is a traitor and a slaver is wrong?


If Calian knew that battle was lost he still was going to sacrifice his army, and his men.. therefore he is not better than Loghain.. he is not even worse but he is not a holy one !!

And I wasn't saying it's not right to kill Loghain... But that it isn'r right to kill him in that way.. If you believe so much in justice and you have high moral beliefs you will wait the end of the blight and after this you will put him on trial.. if he's still alive...

Modifié par MaxQuartiroli, 23 mars 2010 - 02:04 .


#8379
shedevil3001

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sam i'm glad i'm not the only one who sees loghain as the villain who got what he deserves especially with the slavery thing man that really annoyed me in my game and my city elf and what he did to my hfn grrrrrrrrr i'd of kicked him in the family jewels if i could of

#8380
MoSa09

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[quote]MaxQuartiroli wrote...

[/quote]

Indeed... And also Cailan's behaviour in my opinion is really appalling[/quote]

Well, Cailan didn't waited for backup. But just pay close attenion the the pre battle speech. He offers Loghain to wait for the soldies from Orlais, but Loghain get's furious. Loghain as the great general, so he must also realize they cannot win this. And still, he let's his personal hatred get in the way and refuse the help from ORlais that would let them win the battle.
Cailan might be an idiot, but he called for help and his general refused to acept that help, so they had to do with the troops they got at hand. At least he stood his ground and fought for the poeple in the south of Ferelden, unlike his generel, who willingly led his king to death, refused additional troops that could help them win because of his blind hatred and then let all of the inhabitants of southern Ferelden to their cruel fate.
Loghain is no less an idiot than Cailan was.

#8381
Liso66

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MoSa09 wrote...

Liso66 wrote...

MoSa09 wrote...

Better be an idiot than a traitor who sacrifices the son of his friend because of his fears. Think about the letters of RtO.
He did sacrifice his king cause he knew that his daughter was most probably barren and Cailan was to dump her, and that Cailan was maybe ingaged with a woman form Orlais. He was not caring for his country, though me may believed that, he was caring for his own unreasoned fears and hsi believes (like he did with MAric) he always knows best and can shove other people around to do what he wants or kill them. He deserves nothing better than he got


Those letters were not so clear that Cailan was going to marry anyone else.  Loghain assumes imo..  It does not change the fact Cailan KNEW that battle was lost before it started. And he would not wait for backup..  idiot


So if you assume your king might dump your daughter and is an idiot you can kill him and thousands of his man, exposing your country to be overrun and enslaved by a ruthless enemy in the process?
But killing that very same man after you also realized he harbored a ruthless man like Howe (i also beleive he knew about Howe's plans and supported or at least agreed to them) and sold his poorest as slaves (he didn't even has issues with that) is a wrong thing to do?
You have interesting priorities. Killing thousands cause you think their leader is an idiot is alright, but killing one man who is a traitor and a slaver is wrong?


Sir Samcelot.  Cailan KNEW!!!!!!  I repeat!  KNEW!!! this battle was lost and 1000's were going to die, and most likey himself. His lust to go down in history like his own father clouded his judgement.  This is the point I am trying to convey. Regardless if Loghain leaving. Loghain knew this was a battle that would be lost as well...

I do not agree with Loghain's actions.. I can however comprehend them. I can understand the mind set..  If my daughter could lose her throne and the king marry someone else?  Henry the 8th!!!!! dude seriously.. better to lose your throne, than to lose a head.. or a few.  :D

EDIT:  FTR.. I do see Loghain as a criminal..   I am just trying to tell you.... I can see the reasons behind the behavior.  

EDIT again..  I also took the assassins quest.. So my pc was a criminal too.  :whistle: and a killer

Modifié par Liso66, 23 mars 2010 - 02:08 .


#8382
MoSa09

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MaxQuartiroli wrote...

If Calian knew that battle was lost he still was going to sacrifice his army, and his men.. therefore he is not better than Loghain.. he is not even worse but he is not a holy one !!

And I wasn't saying it's not right to kill Loghain... But that it isn'r right to kill him in that way.. If you believe so much in justice and you have high moral beliefs you will wait the end of the blight and after this you will put him on trial.. if he's still alive...


You have cute ideas Max :P

This a medieval game, and within medieval times, matters of rival power were not solved by agreement and court but by the death of one rival.
And especially in this case. The countrx was in civil war and heavily divided. If you allowed that to continue, even if you could ease it at that moment, it would have erupted later on again. If you want to have a united army and a united land, you have to eradicate every source of possible rivalry, and you have to do it openly, if nothing else than a display of strength and to show you were right.
Loghain understood this, as he accepted his fate and knew this was what needed to be done. He would have done the same if you lost. Not because he enjoyed it, but it was necessary.

#8383
shedevil3001

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i see the reason behind his behaviour anora spells it out for you at the landsmeet hes gone mad all he cares about is power and he'll do anything to get what he wants even sacrafice his people but come on seriously if his actions were justifiable then why after leaving cailan to die did he blame our grey wardens and try to have us killed unless he was trying to cover up his misdeeds and then theres the fact i think he was behind killing the couslands as when you talk to him the first time at ostagar he says cailan couldnt control his excitement over meeting you but never aknowledges your family is dead i think its highly unlikely cailan never told him so i'm lead to believe he doesnt mention it because he was behind the order of their deaths

#8384
MaxQuartiroli

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btw... forget for a moment Cailan and Ostagar

I like to play characters who are mercyfull and who believes in redemption. If I see a character who promise me he will find a way to redeem from his guilties I will spare him

I spared Loghain as I spared Avernus in Warden's Keep and Avernus deserved to die more or less like as Loghain. I spared Jowan and he deserved to be executed.. I spared also that femal blood mage in Circle tower who promised me she would go into the church if I would spare her... All people who shows me the wish to redeem deserved to be spared for my point of view

The only one I killed was the slave-driver in Elven Alienage because he told me if I spared him he would kill some slaves to give me more power.. Therefore I killed him without questioning

EDIT.. And this also one of the main reason for I love so much Leliana.. Because she has my same beliefs... and she always support me in these choices....

Modifié par MaxQuartiroli, 23 mars 2010 - 02:19 .


#8385
Liso66

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MoSa09 wrote...

MaxQuartiroli wrote...

If Calian knew that battle was lost he still was going to sacrifice his army, and his men.. therefore he is not better than Loghain.. he is not even worse but he is not a holy one !!

And I wasn't saying it's not right to kill Loghain... But that it isn'r right to kill him in that way.. If you believe so much in justice and you have high moral beliefs you will wait the end of the blight and after this you will put him on trial.. if he's still alive...


You have cute ideas Max :P

This a medieval game, and within medieval times, matters of rival power were not solved by agreement and court but by the death of one rival.
And especially in this case. The countrx was in civil war and heavily divided. If you allowed that to continue, even if you could ease it at that moment, it would have erupted later on again. If you want to have a united army and a united land, you have to eradicate every source of possible rivalry, and you have to do it openly, if nothing else than a display of strength and to show you were right.
Loghain understood this, as he accepted his fate and knew this was what needed to be done. He would have done the same if you lost. Not because he enjoyed it, but it was necessary.


Actually. High Nobles were not executed so easily. Even back then. It had due process. Regardless. This is an alternate world. not "our world" So who is to say exactly. I stand by my ability to see all sides to this complex coin. 

I adored Alistair for being loyal.. I think Anora "if in power" needed Alistair to balance her. A male noble intimidates Anora and they battle for power together. Alistair and female noble together never seem to get further than the ppl all warm and fuzzy because the king loves his new bride so much..  So my logic is not completely skewed. I got it!

#8386
MoSa09

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Liso66 wrote...

Sir Samcelot.  Cailan KNEW!!!!!!  I repeat!  KNEW!!! this battle was lost and 1000's were going to die, and most likey himself. His lust to go down in history like his own father clouded his judgement.  This is the point I am trying to convey. Regardless if Loghain leaving. Loghain knew this was a battle that would be lost as well...

I do not agree with Loghain's actions.. I can however comprehend them. I can understand the mind set..  If my daughter could lose her throne and the king marry someone else?  Henry the 8th!!!!! dude seriously.. better to lose your throne, than to lose a head.. or a few.  :D

EDIT:  FTR.. I do see Loghain as a criminal..   I am just trying to tell you.... I can see the reasons behind the behavior.  

EDIT again..  I also took the assassins quest.. So my pc was a criminal too.  :whistle: and a killer


Yes, and Loghain knew as well. And still, he refused to wait for help from Orlais. He even knew better than the king. And instead of being a good man and put his hatred aside, as so many people claim the Warden should do and spare Loghain cause more important things are at hand, Loghain couldn't do that himself and instead of poutting his anger down and letting the Orlesian troops to help them, he let hi sking run into his own death and retreated.
Cailan at least stood his ground. He did not forget he has a duty, to his people and his country. If the army would have retreated, half of Ferelden and his people would have been lost. He knew, as king it was his duty to protect them and face the enemy. Loghain knew nothing of that. Cailan the idiot was able to overcome the hatred for Orlais and behave like a king, maybe a pretty enthusiatic one, to serve his people he rules. Loghain was never able to do this. He betrayed MAric more than once, and now he betrayed his son as well as the country of Ferelden.
Loghain knew as well, he knew he would kill the king, he knew he would endanger and kill a whole part of Ferelden, and he knew he might deny the only chance Ferelden has for it's survival. If Cailan is an idiiot, for all what Loghain knew, i need a new word cause idiot is not strong enough

#8387
Liso66

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MoSa09 wrote...

Liso66 wrote...

Sir Samcelot.  Cailan KNEW!!!!!!  I repeat!  KNEW!!! this battle was lost and 1000's were going to die, and most likey himself. His lust to go down in history like his own father clouded his judgement.  This is the point I am trying to convey. Regardless if Loghain leaving. Loghain knew this was a battle that would be lost as well...

I do not agree with Loghain's actions.. I can however comprehend them. I can understand the mind set..  If my daughter could lose her throne and the king marry someone else?  Henry the 8th!!!!! dude seriously.. better to lose your throne, than to lose a head.. or a few.  :D

EDIT:  FTR.. I do see Loghain as a criminal..   I am just trying to tell you.... I can see the reasons behind the behavior.  

EDIT again..  I also took the assassins quest.. So my pc was a criminal too.  :whistle: and a killer


Yes, and Loghain knew as well. And still, he refused to wait for help from Orlais. He even knew better than the king. And instead of being a good man and put his hatred aside, as so many people claim the Warden should do and spare Loghain cause more important things are at hand, Loghain couldn't do that himself and instead of poutting his anger down and letting the Orlesian troops to help them, he let hi sking run into his own death and retreated.
Cailan at least stood his ground. He did not forget he has a duty, to his people and his country. If the army would have retreated, half of Ferelden and his people would have been lost. He knew, as king it was his duty to protect them and face the enemy. Loghain knew nothing of that. Cailan the idiot was able to overcome the hatred for Orlais and behave like a king, maybe a pretty enthusiatic one, to serve his people he rules. Loghain was never able to do this. He betrayed MAric more than once, and now he betrayed his son as well as the country of Ferelden.
Loghain knew as well, he knew he would kill the king, he knew he would endanger and kill a whole part of Ferelden, and he knew he might deny the only chance Ferelden has for it's survival. If Cailan is an idiiot, for all what Loghain knew, i need a new word cause idiot is not strong enough


Regardless of what Loghain knew... Cailan was KING!! and had final say. He also willing to not wait and move forward.   So still.  what makes Cailan any less of a criminal? He put his entire country at risk for being? An idiot! "replaces idiot with Selfish Child

Modifié par Liso66, 23 mars 2010 - 02:19 .


#8388
MoSa09

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MaxQuartiroli wrote...

btw... forget for a moment Cailan and Ostagar

I like to play characters who are mercyfull and who believes in redemption. If I see a character who promise me he will find a way to redeem from his guilties I will spare him

I spared Loghain as I spared Avernus in Warden's Keep and Avernus deserved to die more or less like as Loghain. I spared Jowan and he deserved to be executed.. I spared also that femal blood mage in Circle tower who promised me she would go into the church if I would spare her... All people who shows me the wish to redeem deserved to be spared for my point of view

The only one I killed was the slave-driver in Elven Alienage because he told me if I spared him he would kill some slaves to give me more power.. Therefore I killed him without questioning


But in the world of Dragon Age, being merciful and playing like a Paragon is not always giving thr best results. That's exactly the kind of problem Alistair has. He tires to be good at all costs and avoids decisions that are harsh. I play a paragon too, but sometimes in life there are points where decisions have to be made that are cruel and not mercyful but have to be done. That is what a leader does. He does not have to like this, but he nevcertheless has to do this. Maric realizes this in "The Stolen Throne". It eats him alive and he became a depresses man cause of his actions, but he is a good and legendary king cause despite being a good man, at some points he does what needs to be done.

#8389
Curlain

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I,m not sure that Calian really was driven by lust for glory, but that there were more subtle struggles going on that we were aware of in Ostagar alone. We know now that he knew the battle could not be won, and so took measures to protect the royal effects to survive his possible death, and that prior to this he was working hard in secret to set up a lasting peace with Orlais in order to be able to more effectively face the darkspawn. However, he knows due to his Orlesian paranoia that Loghain would not abide by this, and due to his power in Ferelden Calian was working around him and with Duncan on this. When the battle is joined at Ostragar and Loghain shows that he will not accept any aid at all from Orlais Calian is forced to work around this, and so he places himself on the front lines (this in itself is not that major a thing, many great kings of ancient and medieval times fought right on the front lines often, to bolster the morale of their men, Alexander, Richard I, Alfred the Great, Julius Ceasar etc) but here it's to try and ensure that Loghain does not abandon the 'foreign' Wardens which I think he suspects Loghain might do. I now get the strong impression in these scenes that there are undercurrents and plots and counter-plots flying around Ostragar, and Calian by putting himself on the front-line is attempting to force Loghain to keep to the plan, gambling that he would not abandon the King of Ferelden, and his best friend's son to death (but in this gamble he seriously misjudged Loghain and his paranoia).

But he did sense that it could go wrong which is why Calain I think specifically ordered that Alistair accompany the Warden, we know for elsewhere that he knew who Alistair was. And so requests you, a new Warden who is definitely unconnected with the plotting going on at Ostragar, to come to the final battle planning to apparently just casually have you take up the lighting of the beacon (something he already knew about since he had gone over this plan with Loghain previously, as he mentions) and insists, apparently in passing, that Alistair go with you on this rather he he thinks safe mission largely out of harms way. I think he does this to protect his only living heir and therefore the Therin bloodline, which is more important to Ferelden (as he sees it) then even his own life if necessary. He does his best, alone with his instructions to his aid about the royal armour, the letters and Maric's sword, to protect Ferelden's royal legacy if all goes wrong and Loghain does still betray him by doing his best to insure Alistair's survival.

As for his talk of glory when you met him, this I view as largely an act to bolster the morale of his men (it is very important for soldiers, particularly at this time, to see their leaders as confident and indeed larger then life, so the good ones hid there doubts and act as if victory is certain), as we know for RtO that Calian didn't actually believe this.
With this view, I actually think Calian is allot more canny the many give him credit for in Origins, though this is my opinion from the story of course :-)

Modifié par Curlain, 23 mars 2010 - 02:24 .


#8390
shedevil3001

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right gonna make a coffee be back soon

#8391
Liso66

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@ Curlain. I will agree he had Alistair kept out because he was the last heir to the throne. The sad thing here is.. We can speculate till we run out of breath. Only Gaider knows the facts.. As to many things are left for interpretation. Not seeing all possible scenarios is very limiting though..

#8392
MaxQuartiroli

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MoSa09 wrote...

But in the world of Dragon Age, being merciful and playing like a Paragon is not always giving thr best results. That's exactly the kind of problem Alistair has. He tires to be good at all costs and avoids decisions that are harsh. I play a paragon too, but sometimes in life there are points where decisions have to be made that are cruel and not mercyful but have to be done. That is what a leader does. He does not have to like this, but he nevcertheless has to do this. Maric realizes this in "The Stolen Throne". It eats him alive and he became a depresses man cause of his actions, but he is a good and legendary king cause despite being a good man, at some points he does what needs to be done.


Do you remember some day ago when I told I don't like to have fortress to manage, to take political decision and so on? Here's the reason.. I don't wanna be a leader, I don't wanna be forced to take some decision, I don't wanna rule.
Here is the reason why I also refused to rebuild the Wardens at the end of the game and decided to leave Denerim
And here is the second reason why I was so happy to read in the ending of Awakening that I left my role as a commander (the first reason of happyness was obviously to re-joining Leliana)
I AM AN ERRANT KNIGHT... AND I FOREVER WILL BE..

#8393
MoSa09

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Liso66 wrote...

Regardless of what Loghain knew... Cailan was KING!! and had final say. He also willing to not wait and move forward.   So still.  what makes Cailan any less of a criminal? He put his entire country at risk for being? An idiot! "replaces idiot with Selfish Child


Yes, Cailan knew. And as i said, he stood his ground. I believe he thought the odds were grim, but with the legendary Loghain and his genius by his site he nevertheless stood a chance.
I repeat myself, he fought for his people. He might lead them into death, but he fought for all those innocent life'S in Ferelden that were at stake there. Loghain simply let them down to die.
Both can be blamed, and sure Cailan is an idiot, and has he been a batter king he might have told Loghain to f*+k off and wait for the troops. But he had honor, and he knew his duty to his country and it's people.
Loghain had no sense of honor at all, and hw knew nothing of duty against his people.
Yes, Cailan was an idiot, and i see why Loghain disagreed. That does not grant him the right to sacrifice thousands of soldiers in this battle, sacrifice thousands of innocents living there to be killed by the Blight, sacrifice the Couslands to promote his ruthless ally, sacrifice the mages to be killed by Uldred cause he wanted allies, kill Arl Eamon cause he wantS to weaken his opponent's, sell the poorest and weakest as slaves cause he neded the money, torture and imprison his noble opponent'S if they were a threat to his leadership.
If Cailan deserves to die for being an idiot, Loghain deserves to be tortured within Denerim for everyone to see it for a week and place his head on a spike to let it rotten and let the Raven feast upon his rotten flesh.
Cailan was just an idiot, and Loghain saw this, but this does not grant him any right to commit all the crimes he did. And Cailan simply being stupid is no excuse for that

#8394
shedevil3001

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Curlain wrote...

I,m not sure that Calian really was driven by lust for glory, but that there were more subtle struggles going on that we were aware of in Ostagar alone. We know now that he knew the battle could not be won, and so took measures to protect the royal effects to survive his possible death, and that prior to this he was working hard in secret to set up a lasting peace with Orlais in order to be able to more effectively face the darkspawn. However, he knows due to his Orlesian paranoia that Loghain would not abide by this, and due to his power in Ferelden Calian was working around him and with Duncan on this. When the battle is joined at Ostragar and Loghain shows that he will not accept any aid at all from Orlais Calian is forced to work around this, and so he places himself on the front lines (this in itself is not that major a thing, many great kings of ancient and medieval times fought right on the front lines often, to bolster the morale of their men, Alexander, Richard I, Alfred the Great, Julius Ceasar etc) but here it's to try and ensure that Loghain does not abandon the 'foreign' Wardens which I think he suspects Loghain might do. I now get the strong impression in these scenes that there are undercurrents and plots and counter-plots flying around Ostragar, and Calian by putting himself on the front-line is attempting to force Loghain to keep to the plan, gambling that he would not abandon the King of Ferelden, and his best friend's son to death (but in this gamble he seriously misjudged Loghain and his paranoia).

But he did sense that it could go wrong which is why Calain I think specifically ordered that Alistair accompany the Warden, we know for elsewhere that he knew who Alistair was. And so requests you, a new Warden who is definitely unconnected with the plotting going on at Ostragar, to come to the final battle planning to apparently just casually have you take up the lighting of the beacon (something he already knew about since he had gone over this plan with Loghain previously, as he mentions) and insists, apparently in passing, that Alistair go with you on this rather he he thinks safe mission largely out of harms way. I think he does this to protect his only living heir and therefore the Therin bloodline, which is more important to Ferelden (as he sees it) then even his own life if necessary. He does his best, alone with his instructions to his aid about the royal armour, the letters and Maric's sword, to protect Ferelden's royal legacy if all goes wrong and Loghain does still betray him by doing his best to insure Alistair's survival.

As for his talk of glory when you met him, this I view as largely an act to bolster the morale of his men (it is very important for soldiers, particularly at this time, to see their leaders as confident and indeed larger then life, so the good ones hid there doubts and act as if victory is certain), as we know for RtO that Calian didn't actually believe this.
With this view, I actually think Calian is allot more canny the many give him credit for in Origins, though this is my opinion from the story of course :-)


i completely agree curlain i've thought similar things too alot of it didnt add up but you just helped it all fit perfectly as i was curious as to why he sent alistair and our gw to the tower and even called alistair the best i think you may have hit the nail on the head and make a very good point

#8395
MoSa09

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Curlain wrote...

I,m not sure that Calian really was driven by lust for glory, but that there were more subtle struggles going on that we were aware of in Ostagar alone. We know now that he knew the battle could not be won, and so took measures to protect the royal effects to survive his possible death, and that prior to this he was working hard in secret to set up a lasting peace with Orlais in order to be able to more effectively face the darkspawn. However, he knows due to his Orlesian paranoia that Loghain would not abide by this, and due to his power in Ferelden Calian was working around him and with Duncan on this. When the battle is joined at Ostragar and Loghain shows that he will not accept any aid at all from Orlais Calian is forced to work around this, and so he places himself on the front lines (this in itself is not that major a thing, many great kings of ancient and medieval times fought right on the front lines often, to bolster the morale of their men, Alexander, Richard I, Alfred the Great, Julius Ceasar etc) but here it's to try and ensure that Loghain does not abandon the 'foreign' Wardens which I think he suspects Loghain might do. I now get the strong impression in these scenes that there are undercurrents and plots and counter-plots flying around Ostragar, and Calian by putting himself on the front-line is attempting to force Loghain to keep to the plan, gambling that he would not abandon the King of Ferelden, and his best friend's son to death (but in this gamble he seriously misjudged Loghain and his paranoia).

But he did sense that it could go wrong which is why Calain I think specifically ordered that Alistair accompany the Warden, we know for elsewhere that he knew who Alistair was. And so requests you, a new Warden who is definitely unconnected with the plotting going on at Ostragar, to come to the final battle planning to apparently just casually have you take up the lighting of the beacon (something he already knew about since he had gone over this plan with Loghain previously, as he mentions) and insists, apparently in passing, that Alistair go with you on this rather he he thinks safe mission largely out of harms way. I think he does this to protect his only living heir and therefore the Therin bloodline, which is more important to Ferelden (as he sees it) then even his own life if necessary. He does his best, alone with his instructions to his aid about the royal armour, the letters and Maric's sword, to protect Ferelden's royal legacy if all goes wrong and Loghain does still betray him by doing his best to insure Alistair's survival.

As for his talk of glory when you met him, this I view as largely an act to bolster the morale of his men (it is very important for soldiers, particularly at this time, to see their leaders as confident and indeed larger then life, so the good ones hid there doubts and act as if victory is certain), as we know for RtO that Calian didn't actually believe this.
With this view, I actually think Calian is allot more canny the many give him credit for in Origins, though this is my opinion from the story of course :-)


Excellent ideas and post stealthmaster. I believe you have a strong point here

#8396
Liso66

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If Cailan understood this battle was already a loss. He was not "thinking" about his people. He was thinking of what "he" wanted.. If he were truly thinking about his people. He would have forced Loghain to wait.. This is logical.. I am basing this on logic only..

#8397
MoSa09

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Liso66 wrote...

If Cailan understood this battle was already a loss. He was not "thinking" about his people. He was thinking of what "he" wanted.. If he were truly thinking about his people. He would have forced Loghain to wait.. This is logical.. I am basing this on logic only..


Well if i might take up Curlain's point and expant it a bit, you make yourself too easy here. Loghain is a legendary general, a war hero, while he is the son of a great king with nothing on his record. Even as a player you can feel that many soldiers would rather follow Loghain than Cailan. If Loghain would speak up and advise against Orlesian troops in public, i believe he would have the support of most of his troops.
Just cause Cailan is king is not to say he has full control of everything. Loghain is powerful, and his veto is something even the king, especially and inexperienced king like Cailan is, can't ignore. He probably had no other choice than to eithewr wait and risk a riot or a civil war if Loghain would go into the public with his paranoia and find a way to move around that, and here Curlain'S ideas comes into play, as i believe Cailan did the latter. And in a way, he even succeeded

#8398
MaxQuartiroli

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And it's time for me to become an errant knight also in real world.. gym+shops+other little things

Check for you this evening.. Bye !

#8399
Liso66

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bye bye Max MacFluffies.. have fun!

#8400
Liso66

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MoSa09 wrote...

Liso66 wrote...

If Cailan understood this battle was already a loss. He was not "thinking" about his people. He was thinking of what "he" wanted.. If he were truly thinking about his people. He would have forced Loghain to wait.. This is logical.. I am basing this on logic only..


Well if i might take up Curlain's point and expant it a bit, you make yourself too easy here. Loghain is a legendary general, a war hero, while he is the son of a great king with nothing on his record. Even as a player you can feel that many soldiers would rather follow Loghain than Cailan. If Loghain would speak up and advise against Orlesian troops in public, i believe he would have the support of most of his troops.
Just cause Cailan is king is not to say he has full control of everything. Loghain is powerful, and his veto is something even the king, especially and inexperienced king like Cailan is, can't ignore. He probably had no other choice than to eithewr wait and risk a riot or a civil war if Loghain would go into the public with his paranoia and find a way to move around that, and here Curlain'S ideas comes into play, as i believe Cailan did the latter. And in a way, he even succeeded


Perhaps. and I am not saying anyone is wrong.  I could go on and speculate forever.. This story has so many facets to pick apart and theorize. I am sure each of us have good points. It all boils down to personal opinions, and our own interpretation..