236 réponses à ce sujet

[GuardianAngel470]

Ha! I beat both of you! take that!



Oh, and uh, yeah...



Tali for ME3!

[GuardianAngel470]

I think that telling the Quarians they would get their homeworld back at the end of Peace talks would be counterproductive. They would agree for the wrong reasons. It wouldn't be an acknowledgement of the geth's right to continued existance but and effort to achieve a short term goal. I say don't tell them until after they sign the peace treaty.

[Inverness Moon]

This plot really deserves an expansion so it isn't jammed into some small side-quest in ME3.

[GnusmasTHX]

Inverness Moon wrote...

PatchWorks wrote...

"Every sapient has the right to make their own decisions" is what Legion states on the Heretic Station, but he has no qualms about brainwashing those Geth that disagree. How is what Admiral Daro-Xen planning any different from what Legion accomplishes already during his loyalty mission?

Legion also said he did not endorse the idea of brainwashing the heretics, he left that up to Shepard. Your argument is flawed.

Vaenier wrote...

Both sides attempted genocide. Both sides need to just drop it already, shake hands, and move on. More death is not going to help anybody [except the Reapers].

Incorrect. The quarians attempted genocide; geth "fought for continued existence."

GnusmasTHX wrote...

LuckyIronAxe wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Dude, peace would result in the quarians getting their homeworld back. They wouldn't have to find a colony because the geth would hand them their planet back, they aren't using it.

Why would peace mean that the Quarians would get their planet back? If it was that simple, they would already have the planet back!

Because if you actually play the game, Legion says that the geth are only caretakers of planet, waiting to return it to the quarians whenever THEY find it appropriate to broker peace terms.

It's obviously not easy for the quarians to just admit and realize the genocide of their race was a misunderstanding, or an act of 'self-defense' as some would say. That's why it's not so easy to get their planet back. And again, if you played the game, you'd know this.

And Legion says that the geth would attempt peace if they found that co-existance was possible or desirable for the quarians. I'm sure the geth would not want to let the quarians return if they feel the quarians aren't sure about their decision and might become hostile again in the heart of geth territory.

Their fight for continued existence resulted in the wholesale slaughter of the quarian people. Regardless, the results are the same.

The thing is, why would killing billions be necessary? Why couldn't they flee? Why were all the homeworlds, colony worlds and even stations massacred?

That, to me, doesn't make sense until it's explained further.

[Inverness Moon]

GnusmasTHX wrote...

Their fight for continued existence resulted in the wholesale slaughter of the quarian people. Regardless, the results are the same.

The thing is, why would killing billions be necessary? Why couldn't they flee? Why were all the homeworlds, colony worlds and even stations massacred?

That, to me, doesn't make sense until it's explained further.

You have a point. And for the other locations, I'm sure the quarians used the geth just about everywhere, so combat was widespread.

But, the quarians choose to fight and they choose when to stop fighting and escape with what was left of them. The geth still did not have the goal of genocide--unlike the quarians--which is why I support them.

LuckyIronAxe wrote...

I never really had time to talk with Legion much do to the fact that, you know your crew gets kidnapped and their time is quickly running out, plus why does everyone believe that the Geth are incapable of lyeing? I mean, you spent the entire game of Mass Effect 1 fighting these things, why doesn't anyone think this could all be a big ploy, trick, or plot?

What reason do the geth have to lie? They are not suspicious or deceptive with each other by nature. Though the heretics represent movement away from that.

Modifié par Inverness Moon, 26 février 2010 - 10:27 .

[COLK-KiLL]

LuckyIronAxe wrote...

GnusmasTHX wrote...

LuckyIronAxe wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Dude, peace would result in the quarians getting their homeworld back. They wouldn't have to find a colony because the geth would hand them their planet back, they aren't using it.

Why would peace mean that the Quarians would get their planet back? If it was that simple, they would already have the planet back!

Because if you actually play the game, Legion says that the geth are only caretakers of planet, waiting to return it to the quarians whenever THEY find it appropriate to broker peace terms.

It's obviously not easy for the quarians to just admit and realize the genocide of their race was a misunderstanding, or an act of 'self-defense' as some would say. That's why it's not so easy to get their planet back. And again, if you played the game, you'd know this.

I never really had time to talk with Legion much do to the fact that, you know your crew gets kidnapped and their time is quickly running out, plus why does everyone believe that the Geth are incapable of lyeing? I mean, you spent the entire game of Mass Effect 1 fighting these things, why doesn't anyone think this could all be a big ploy, trick, or plot?

Lying is a hard concept for a machine to grasp computers are programed to help the user and therefor do not lie knowingly. How ever the Geth are sentient and may have learned Lying is an invaulable tool. So it all comes down to what the writers decide.

[GnusmasTHX]

Inverness Moon wrote...

GnusmasTHX wrote...

Their fight for continued existence resulted in the wholesale slaughter of the quarian people. Regardless, the results are the same.

The thing is, why would killing billions be necessary? Why couldn't they flee? Why were all the homeworlds, colony worlds and even stations massacred?

That, to me, doesn't make sense until it's explained further.

You have a point. And for the other locations, I'm sure the quarians used the geth just about everywhere, so combat was widespread.

But, the quarians choose to fight and they choose when to stop fighting and escape with what was left of them. The geth still did not have the goal of genocide--unlike the quarians--which is why I support them.

LuckyIronAxe wrote...

I never really had time to talk with Legion much do to the fact that, you know your crew gets kidnapped and their time is quickly running out, plus why does everyone believe that the Geth are incapable of lyeing? I mean, you spent the entire game of Mass Effect 1 fighting these things, why doesn't anyone think this could all be a big ploy, trick, or plot?

What reason do the geth have to lie? They are not suspicious or deceptive with each other by nature. Though the heretics represent movement away from that.

But even that itself begs the question...

The geth clearly had superiority.

If the quarians, prone to all the weaknesses of their mortal lives, just coming/still kind of in a war of extermination (regardless of intent, anyone could argue that was the case), ESCAPE... Why couldn't the geth do the same?

Basically, the geth are at an extreme advantage, the geth don't need these worlds, they never needed to kill every man, woman and child they came across, but they did. And if the option to leave was available to the quarians, why wasn't it available to the geth, and if it was, why didn't they?

[Inverness Moon]

COLK-KiLL wrote...

Lying is a hard concept for a machine to grasp computers are programed to help the user and therefor do not lie knowingly. How ever the Geth are sentient and may have learned Lying is an invaulable tool. So it all comes down to what the writers decide.

I disagree. Lying is quite simple understand, and to do. I'm sure the geth are quite capable of deception, however they--like organics--would need a reason to do so, and organics have far more reasons to lie than the geth.

GnusmasTHX wrote...

Inverness Moon wrote...

GnusmasTHX wrote...

Their fight for continued existence resulted in the wholesale slaughter of the quarian people. Regardless, the results are the same.

The thing is, why would killing billions be necessary? Why couldn't they flee? Why were all the homeworlds, colony worlds and even stations massacred?

That, to me, doesn't make sense until it's explained further.

You have a point. And for the other locations, I'm sure the quarians used the geth just about everywhere, so combat was widespread.

But, the quarians choose to fight and they choose when to stop fighting and escape with what was left of them. The geth still did not have the goal of genocide--unlike the quarians--which is why I support them.

LuckyIronAxe wrote...

I never really had time to talk with Legion much do to the fact that, you know your crew gets kidnapped and their time is quickly running out, plus why does everyone believe that the Geth are incapable of lyeing? I mean, you spent the entire game of Mass Effect 1 fighting these things, why doesn't anyone think this could all be a big ploy, trick, or plot?

What reason do the geth have to lie? They are not suspicious or deceptive with each other by nature. Though the heretics represent movement away from that.

But even that itself begs the question...

The geth clearly had superiority.

If the quarians, prone to all the weaknesses of their mortal lives, just coming/still kind of in a war of extermination (regardless of intent, anyone could argue that was the case), ESCAPE... Why couldn't the geth do the same?

Basically, the geth are at an extreme advantage, the geth don't need these worlds, they never needed to kill every man, woman and child they came across, but they did. And if the option to leave was available to the quarians, why wasn't it available to the geth, and if it was, why didn't they?

Escaping doesn't mean the threat is over; Battlestar Galactica is an appropriate example of this. We don't know if the quarians would have just stopped after the geth left or if they would have chased the geth across the galaxy to ensure their destruction and deal with their mistake. Had the geth simply escaped they would have had a constant threat to their existence to worry about, so the geth fought until the quarians no longer had the will to threaten their existence.

Modifié par Inverness Moon, 26 février 2010 - 10:36 .

[Merchant2006]

I would think peace is a good option. If I have a few billion geth to use vs the Reapers well... hey that would be nice ^^

[COLK-KiLL]

@ Inverness Moon

"I disagree. Lying is quite simple understand, and to do. I'm sure the geth are quite capable of deception, however they--like organics--would need a reason to do so, and organics have far more reasons to lie than the geth."



I was implying a non sentient object like a computer does not lie but the geth could be capable of lying.

[sliverofamoon]

CanadAvenger wrote...

I am going for peace. There is no way that the Quarians would survive an all out war against the Geth. Also, according to Legion, the Geth do not wish to cause harm to the creators. Their homeworld may be gone, but it's not the fault of the Geth.
I would say just try to find a new planet. It'll be difficult, but a much better option than war.

I agree, after the whole Tali/Legion interraction.... co-habitation is also a possibility....

[GuardianAngel470]

LuckyIronAxe wrote...

GnusmasTHX wrote...

LuckyIronAxe wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Dude, peace would result in the quarians getting their homeworld back. They wouldn't have to find a colony because the geth would hand them their planet back, they aren't using it.

Why would peace mean that the Quarians would get their planet back? If it was that simple, they would already have the planet back!

Because if you actually play the game, Legion says that the geth are only caretakers of planet, waiting to return it to the quarians whenever THEY find it appropriate to broker peace terms.

It's obviously not easy for the quarians to just admit and realize the genocide of their race was a misunderstanding, or an act of 'self-defense' as some would say. That's why it's not so easy to get their planet back. And again, if you played the game, you'd know this.

I never really had time to talk with Legion much do to the fact that, you know your crew gets kidnapped and their time is quickly running out, plus why does everyone believe that the Geth are incapable of lyeing? I mean, you spent the entire game of Mass Effect 1 fighting these things, why doesn't anyone think this could all be a big ploy, trick, or plot?

I sacrificed the crew on one playthrough in order to hear what legion says on and what others say to his presence on Tali's recruitment mission and loyalty mission, but the things I said all can be heard by, post-suicide mission, doing a sidequest then talking to legion, doing a sidequest then talking to legion, rinse and repeat.

Also, they aren't lying because they have no reason to.  If they were hell bent on killing all organics they could do it, their tech is far superior.  Add to that they sent a new model of mobile platform to find you, specifically.  If they wanted to get close to you in order to betray you don't you think that a suicide mission would be the perfect time to spring their trap?  I always use legion as the tech specialist and when he is opening the door for you that would be the perfect time to let you die, it would be totally defendable.

Modifié par GuardianAngel470, 26 février 2010 - 10:45 .

[Inverness Moon]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

I sacrificed the crew on one playthrough in order to hear what legion says on and what others say to his presence on Tali's recruitment mission and loyalty mission, but the things I said all can be heard by, post-suicide mission, doing a sidequest then talking to legion, doing a sidequest then talking to legion, rinse and repeat.

You can find videos of what Legion says on YouTube:



Look at that, and the other videos from that user.

[sliverofamoon]

Sturmwulfe wrote...

I have a feeling it's going to end up being the total destruction of one or the other, or peace brought about by communication.

The quarians haven't exactly been in touch with the geth since they were forced from their home world, so for all they know the geth are still hostile. But food for thought; the geth never traveled outside the Perseus Veil before Sovereign had his army of heretics, and that wasn't about the quarians. In fact, the entire geth incursion probably affected the quarians very insignificantly. In Mass Effect 2, the quarians are fighting with the geth on a world the geth already controlled since the quarians were forced into exile, and one of their ships was overtaken after Tali's father's team built new geth out of geth parts Tali sent back to be used as weapon testing targets. People don't really seem to think that as a big deal, but were it any other race, as Shepard stated in the game, it would have caused a huge problem.

Even during the first game, when Tali was telling Shepard about the quarian-geth war, I felt that the quarians had a knee jerk reaction and had what was coming to them. They didn't know what the geth would have done, so chose to attack them. Anything would defend itself from extinction. The geth just happened to be good at it.

As for comments such as the geth didn't follow the quarians because they couldn't, they already proved they have the capabilities of interstellar travel and quite advanced technology. They likely didn't follow because they viewed the threat from their creators as over. Also, they aren't even using the quarian homeworld as was previously stated. They continued doing their functions to maintain it, even after gaining intelligence. One would assume this still involves heavy labour and possibly dangerous things.

The geth don't understand organic life, and vice versa. It doesn't mean they are hostile. What would would view as demeaning, boarder line slave labour the geth would simply view as a necessary function that needs to be completed, there aren't personal feelings about it. They would probably be content to even coexist with the quarians if peace was achieved and CONTINUE to do what the quarians designed them to do, since it was a part of their functions to begin with.

Bingo... well said... again, the Tali and Legion interaction after Legion's loyalty quest is a perfect example of a possible peaceful resolution.

[GuardianAngel470]

GnusmasTHX wrote...

Inverness Moon wrote...

PatchWorks wrote...

"Every sapient has the right to make their own decisions" is what Legion states on the Heretic Station, but he has no qualms about brainwashing those Geth that disagree. How is what Admiral Daro-Xen planning any different from what Legion accomplishes already during his loyalty mission?

Legion also said he did not endorse the idea of brainwashing the heretics, he left that up to Shepard. Your argument is flawed.

Vaenier wrote...

Both sides attempted genocide. Both sides need to just drop it already, shake hands, and move on. More death is not going to help anybody [except the Reapers].

Incorrect. The quarians attempted genocide; geth "fought for continued existence."

GnusmasTHX wrote...

LuckyIronAxe wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Dude, peace would result in the quarians getting their homeworld back. They wouldn't have to find a colony because the geth would hand them their planet back, they aren't using it.

Why would peace mean that the Quarians would get their planet back? If it was that simple, they would already have the planet back!

Because if you actually play the game, Legion says that the geth are only caretakers of planet, waiting to return it to the quarians whenever THEY find it appropriate to broker peace terms.

It's obviously not easy for the quarians to just admit and realize the genocide of their race was a misunderstanding, or an act of 'self-defense' as some would say. That's why it's not so easy to get their planet back. And again, if you played the game, you'd know this.

And Legion says that the geth would attempt peace if they found that co-existance was possible or desirable for the quarians. I'm sure the geth would not want to let the quarians return if they feel the quarians aren't sure about their decision and might become hostile again in the heart of geth territory.

Their fight for continued existence resulted in the wholesale slaughter of the quarian people. Regardless, the results are the same.

The thing is, why would killing billions be necessary? Why couldn't they flee? Why were all the homeworlds, colony worlds and even stations massacred?

That, to me, doesn't make sense until it's explained further.

If you listened to the recording that Legion plays for you you would understand why the geth did what they did.  It's obvious from that recording that the geth mental capacity at the time of the Morning War was that of a 3 year old learning to talk.  You wouldn't expect a three year old to make a logical decision in the face of death, why would you expect the geth to?  My understanding is that the geth fought on a purely defensive stance.  The quarians attacked, the geth retaliated, even though they outnumbered the quarians like crazy the quarians continued to attack and the geth continued to retailate.

[GnusmasTHX]

Inverness Moon wrote...
Escaping doesn't mean the threat is over; Battlestar Galactica is an appropriate example of this. We don't know if the quarians would have just stopped after the geth left or if they would have chased the geth across the galaxy to ensure their destruction and deal with their mistake. Had the geth simply escaped they would have had a constant threat to their existence to worry about, so the geth fought until the quarians no longer had the will to threaten their existence.

The difference is if the Cylons never intended extermination, they could've easily just gone the way of the "rag-tag fleet" and the survivors of even the nuclear holocaust wouldn't have thought to follow them, I'd think, at least. 

The Cylons and the geth were both the victorious party, if anything, the option to leave should've been more readily available to THEM, not the quarians. Also wholesale slaughter of non-military personnel, on the magnitude of billions makes them just as bad, if not worse than the quarians.

In one war the geth became sufficiently powerful enough to topple an entire race, albeit in an unconventional manner. They could easily defend any system or even cluster that they chose to go to, especially if it wasn't immediately within range of a Mass Relay. Especially against a broken quarian military.

Hell, the less advanced and smaller Systems Alliance can defend three at a time. (Or does, untested until ME3, hopefully.)

Point is, within the Relay Network, the galaxy is a big enough place that the geth and quarians could've existed on opposite ends and would've never encountered one another. Outside the Relay Network, it's infinitely larger. The geth, for some reason, never used, and may have never even considered this avenue of action.

(That is; to leave when the option was available. And before the near-genocide of a people.)

And why was occupation of worlds ever necessary?

Modifié par GnusmasTHX, 26 février 2010 - 10:55 .

[Inverness Moon]

LuckyIronAxe wrote...

Back to the topic of lying, didn't Legion seem distraught during his loyalty mission on how his Geth were tricked by the Heretics, due to the Heretics "hiding" their thoughts from the rest of the Geth? So it sounds like to me that the Geth do posses an understanding of cloaking the truth, so the Geth lying isn’t as farfetched as it sounds.

I'm not necessarily saying that the Geth are lying, I just wanted to state it totally could be a possibility.

Of course it's a possibility--but again--what reason would the geth have to lie?

[GuardianAngel470]

LuckyIronAxe wrote...

Back to the topic of lying, didn't Legion seem distraught during his loyalty mission on how his Geth were tricked by the Heretics, due to the Heretics "hiding" their thoughts from the rest of the Geth? So it sounds like to me that the Geth do posses an understanding of cloaking the truth, so the Geth lying isn’t as farfetched as it sounds.

I'm not necessarily saying that the Geth are lying, I just wanted to state it totally could be a possibility.

Also, I'm sorry GuardianAngel, I sounded sort of like an ass to you, I didn't mean it.

I didn't even notice, you sounded like and ass? When? Honestly, no offense taken. And I totally agree, the geth could totally be lying, just like the quarians and rachni could totally be lying.  At some point you have to look the evidence to formulate who you trust.  Legion has been through hell with you.  He's helped you on multiple occasions an he's been in firefights with you.  If I can trust him to watch my back in a firefight then I say I can trust him to be telling me the truth.

[GuardianAngel470]

Inverness Moon wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

I sacrificed the crew on one playthrough in order to hear what legion says on and what others say to his presence on Tali's recruitment mission and loyalty mission, but the things I said all can be heard by, post-suicide mission, doing a sidequest then talking to legion, doing a sidequest then talking to legion, rinse and repeat.

You can find videos of what Legion says on YouTube:



Look at that, and the other videos from that user.

Yeah, but I wanted to dictate what my character said.  I'm a paragon but getting legion and sacrificing the crew is renegade, so I assumed that most videos would have lines that I didn't agree with.  And I've already done it, and went back and loaded an old save.

By the way, does anyone know what happens of you load an OLD save, like 2 hours after the beginning after completing the game and the first bunch of saves?  Carry over wise.

Modifié par GuardianAngel470, 26 février 2010 - 11:01 .

[GuardianAngel470]

LuckyIronAxe wrote...

Yeah, I'm redoing my playthrough, this time I'm taking Legion to the Flotilla for Tali's mission, that will give me more perspective.

Or you could watch the youtube video one of these other guys linked to.

[GnusmasTHX]

Also, I'm still of the opinion that they should both kill each other.



The geth deserve to die because they killed the quarians.

And the quarians deserve to die because they fail miserably at EVERYTHING they do.

[gneissguy2003]

While we're on the topic of the Geth being capable of lying, has anyone possibly considered the following:



Legion is actually aligned with the heretic Geth. He lied to Shepard about the Geth they were attacking on the "heretic" station, and, in fact, the entire plan was to either rewrite normal Geth into more heretics OR to just kill them right out to provide less opposition to the Reapers?



I understand the idea has holes in it, but if we assume that Geth have an understanding of what lying is, and we assume that Legion can lie to us, then this could make things far more complicated come ME3.



Thoughts?