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Well I'm sure that since all of the 'paragon' options seem like they're working out best for you in the end, peace is the right thing to do in the end (for the game). In reality, that would make no sense. So say a robot AI kills 99% of humanity, and the seventy million of us remaining run off in ships or something. We're floating out there for 3 centuries, with the knowledge that these machines killed billions, and all we can think about is what we've lost. Hell, modern human nations have grudges that go farther back than that. (Especially the onees that have lost)
Now, these machines do not contact us in the intervening years at all, except to massacre any scouting or research parties sent anywhere near them. What gives you the impression they want peace?
As for the 'geth are people' thing - what do you think we would do if all the computers in the world linked together, suddenly stopped doing what they were supposed to and started question their existence? You don't think we would try to stop it?
War or Peace, The Quarian Condition
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, févr. 25 2010 11:47
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#152
Posté 03 mars 2010 - 02:59
SentinelBorg
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Well, only 5% of Geth programs. But those programs could have taken a larger portion of mobile platforms and ships with them when they followed Sovereign into war.BlightWalker wrote...
Iirc the Heretics encompass only 5% of all Geth. I don't think they used everything they got at this battle though.Internet Kraken wrote...
SuperZombieChow wrote...
I suspect that the Fleet with Soverign was a very significant portion of the Geth military.
Didn't the codex say that was only about 5-10% of the Geth's military Strength? I can't remember.
#153
Posté 03 mars 2010 - 04:10
Esker02
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Have a little faith in Admiral Xen's plan to reclaim the Geth. Her message to you following Tali's loyalty mission leads me to believe the ultimate decision won't be "War vs. Peace" where the "right" answer is obvious, given the Reapers are on their way. It seems like it will be "Free" Geth vs. Quarians reclaiming their property, which would have the Geth fleet and the Quarian fleet at full strength for the battle either way.JulianusApostate wrote...
Well I'm sure that since all of the 'paragon' options seem like they're working out best for you in the end, peace is the right thing to do in the end (for the game). In reality, that would make no sense. So say a robot AI kills 99% of humanity, and the seventy million of us remaining run off in ships or something. We're floating out there for 3 centuries, with the knowledge that these machines killed billions, and all we can think about is what we've lost. Hell, modern human nations have grudges that go farther back than that. (Especially the onees that have lost)
Now, these machines do not contact us in the intervening years at all, except to massacre any scouting or research parties sent anywhere near them. What gives you the impression they want peace?
As for the 'geth are people' thing - what do you think we would do if all the computers in the world linked together, suddenly stopped doing what they were supposed to and started question their existence? You don't think we would try to stop it?
Would simplify things in terms of ending possibilities, but still keep the situation's resolution open either way.
#154
Posté 03 mars 2010 - 04:18
Swim Razzo
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What? Ha ha ha, Quarian marines get curb stomped by anything more dangerous than a hand can opener.Jethart wrote...
Given the ease with which Shepard wiped out the heretic geth, I think the quarians would not find it too hard to wipe out the normal geth.
Modifié par Swim Razzo, 03 mars 2010 - 04:23 .
#155
Guest_Darht Jayder_*
Posté 03 mars 2010 - 04:41
Guest_Darht Jayder_*
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I hope for peace that way, the Geth and Quarians can put aside their grudge and fight along Shepard. The Quarians will be the first wave.....of course they will get utterly slaughtered but the bodies will make excellent cover for Shepard and the Geth to shoot from.
#156
Posté 03 mars 2010 - 05:35
Flamewielder
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but discussions with Legion clearly indicate the Geth were never "stuck" beyond the Veil. The "chose" to remain there.
Geth don't require atmosphere, don't require food or water. They have energy aplenty wherever they care to install solar panels, they have building materials galore in asteroid belts, outside of a planet's gravity well. They simply have no reason to compete with the organics, no resource the organics could possibly desire and be unable to obtain otherwise.
If neither side has any resource the other needs and could conceivably want to steal, I expect they'll pretty much want to ignore each other.
As for the Quarian worlds, as Legion states, the non-Heretical Geths have essentially been keeping them "in thrust", pending a dialog between between themselves and the Quarians.
My conclusion is, since the Geth display no hostility towards the Quarians and appear willing to return their planets to them, no amount of war-mongering will convince the Quarians to go to war against the Geth.
If Shepard decided to sell Legion to Cerberus, TIM may figure all this out anyway and make sure the conflict is avoided, perhaps brokering a deal between the Quarians and Geth in exchange for the vessels of the Quarian fleet should the Quarians return to their home worlds. He gets thousands of free ships which he can crew with loyal Cerberus personel. Huge win for Cerberus and the Humanity first faction of the Alliance.
War between the Geth and Quarians only benefits the Reapers. War = huge Fail for all non-Reapers
,
Geth don't require atmosphere, don't require food or water. They have energy aplenty wherever they care to install solar panels, they have building materials galore in asteroid belts, outside of a planet's gravity well. They simply have no reason to compete with the organics, no resource the organics could possibly desire and be unable to obtain otherwise.
If neither side has any resource the other needs and could conceivably want to steal, I expect they'll pretty much want to ignore each other.
As for the Quarian worlds, as Legion states, the non-Heretical Geths have essentially been keeping them "in thrust", pending a dialog between between themselves and the Quarians.
My conclusion is, since the Geth display no hostility towards the Quarians and appear willing to return their planets to them, no amount of war-mongering will convince the Quarians to go to war against the Geth.
If Shepard decided to sell Legion to Cerberus, TIM may figure all this out anyway and make sure the conflict is avoided, perhaps brokering a deal between the Quarians and Geth in exchange for the vessels of the Quarian fleet should the Quarians return to their home worlds. He gets thousands of free ships which he can crew with loyal Cerberus personel. Huge win for Cerberus and the Humanity first faction of the Alliance.
War between the Geth and Quarians only benefits the Reapers. War = huge Fail for all non-Reapers
,
#157
Posté 03 mars 2010 - 06:13
Flamewielder
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And before you get started on species holding a grudge, they simply don't. Individuals do, depending on their individual circumstances. If they did, massive numbers of jews would be lining up to go to war with Germany. Massive numbers of palestinian youth would be aggressing israeli citizens. We don't see that. All we see is a minority of individuals, usually radicals, planting bombs or deliberately trying to obstruct a peace process.
The quarians have such radicals, the Geth may have them (or not if they've been hacked). Do they represent the majority of their respective populations? no...
Again, the Geth do not need anything from the Quarians. No competition over resources = peace
Xen might want to reprogram the Geth into submission, and might succeed = peace
Quarian attack on homeworld -> Geth abandon a planet that is useless to them => Quarians have no opponent to fight with => peace.
The quarians have such radicals, the Geth may have them (or not if they've been hacked). Do they represent the majority of their respective populations? no...
Again, the Geth do not need anything from the Quarians. No competition over resources = peace
Xen might want to reprogram the Geth into submission, and might succeed = peace
Quarian attack on homeworld -> Geth abandon a planet that is useless to them => Quarians have no opponent to fight with => peace.
#158
Posté 03 mars 2010 - 06:19
JedTed
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It's my hope that the insight gained from Legion will convince the quarians that the geth don't desire war any more than they do. He does state that all they're doing is taking care of the homeworld for the day when the quarians return.
#159
Guest_Shandepared_*
Posté 03 mars 2010 - 06:35
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Gosh, I'm not sure where to begin as there is so much I'd like to say. I also haven't thoroughly explored everything that ME2 has to offer. However I'll just go through things chronologically...
The quarians have nothing to be ashamed of. They did nothing wrong when they attacked geth. Why did the quarians attack, you ask, why didn't they try for peace?
A simple reason: the risk was too great. The geth were far too numerous and integral to quarian infrastructure. When they began awakening the quarians began losing control. The geth had weapons and the benefit of artificial intelligence. The quarian leadership surely would have known that if more geth became self-aware and violent that they would threaten the very survival of the quarian species and its civilization. The proof that this is true is the history: the geth won. The fact that the geth were capable not only of merely surviving the war, but of actually turning the war around and perpetuationg the utter genocide of the quarian people prooves that they were dangerous. Does that mean the geth were inherently violent? No, it doesn't. It only proves that they had the capacty for such and that the consequences of potential violence were great.
Considering that the quarians attacked first and still were uttelry defeated, what should they have done?
What if the quarians had tried for peace and the geth had attacked anyway? This time there might not be a Migrant Fleet today because it is possible not enough quarians may have escaped.
However, if the quarians are trying for peace what harm is there in also evacuating civilians just in case? That seems reasonable, doesn't it? Well it seems reasonable but it might not be practical. If you proclaim to the geth that you want peace while at the same time evacuating civilians this might make it look like you are really just stalling for time while you prepare an attack. So in this case the geth may attack anyway but in the time you spent stalling for peace the geth were just getting stronger.
This brings us to another point: for the quarians time was counting against them. Every moment they delayed, every moment they spent trying to understand why the geth were becoming self-aware was another moment, another day, that another hundred, or thousand, or hundreds of thousands of geth programs were becoming conscious and cohesive. The smarter the geth got the more organized they'd be and thus the more dangerous. The only hope the quarians had to maintain an advantage against the geth was to try and shut them down as soon as possible. Towards that end they sent a signal to shutdown all geth. It isn't clear IIRC whether this was a signal to the geth or a signal to geth overseers to manually (and perhaps violently) shut-down the geth. Regardless, that doesn't matter. For the quarians time had already run out.
So then what if the quarians tried for peace and the geth cooperated? Well, how do you think the Council would react to that? Suddenly an entire civilization of illegal entities has been allowed to rise up in Council space, violating Council law at the highest level. The Council would probably delcare war on the quarians or at best sanction them. The damage this would do could be compounded by the fact that the geth awakening in the first place would have probably wrecked quarian society. As geth were integrated into virutually everything their becoming uncontrollable would cause chaos as important systems from the mundane to the life-threatening would become compromised. Then the economy would crash too; it'd be armaggeddon.
With these options examined it becomes clear that the only responsible course of action the quarian leadership could have pursued would be to try and deactive the geth before very many of them became aware. In this way they'd still have to replace much of their labor force but at least they wouldn't be violating Council law and they wouldn't be putting the survival of their species in danger.
I don't think anyone here really understands just what that genocide of an entire species means. It isn't just people being killed, it is all of their ancestors and descendents being killed right along with them. Their beliefs, their culture, and everything else about them is extinguished.
Synthetic life will never be equal to organic life. If you destroyed all of the geth you could ressurect them provided you had the code for geth A.I. and the schematics to build geth platforms. You would destroy them all, wait six million years, and then bring the geth back in a shor time with only a couple of factories and software development labs. However if you did the same to the quarians, or humans, or any other organic species that would be the end of them, period. Once they are all dead you can't bring them back. You might be able to clone a few, but never enough to have a sustainable population capable of meaningiful growth.
So in the end I support the quarians 100% in reclaiming their homeworld and wiping out the geth. Or should I say, in principal? Truthfully Admiral Xen's message to me was quite chilling. I construed it as a threat. She said that humanity would watch from the sidelines but she placed emphasis on the fact that the quarians would be taking control of the largest synthtic army in the galaxy. That implies that she intends to use that army. For what, I don't know... I do know however that the quarians sent a ship out to find a Reaper, specifically so they could reverse engineer it and take control of the geth, and that this mission is scheduled to end in about another two or three years, right in time for Mass Effect 3...
Who knows what the future will bring. I suspect though that we'll find ourselves fighting against the quarians in some capacity.
The quarians have nothing to be ashamed of. They did nothing wrong when they attacked geth. Why did the quarians attack, you ask, why didn't they try for peace?
A simple reason: the risk was too great. The geth were far too numerous and integral to quarian infrastructure. When they began awakening the quarians began losing control. The geth had weapons and the benefit of artificial intelligence. The quarian leadership surely would have known that if more geth became self-aware and violent that they would threaten the very survival of the quarian species and its civilization. The proof that this is true is the history: the geth won. The fact that the geth were capable not only of merely surviving the war, but of actually turning the war around and perpetuationg the utter genocide of the quarian people prooves that they were dangerous. Does that mean the geth were inherently violent? No, it doesn't. It only proves that they had the capacty for such and that the consequences of potential violence were great.
Considering that the quarians attacked first and still were uttelry defeated, what should they have done?
What if the quarians had tried for peace and the geth had attacked anyway? This time there might not be a Migrant Fleet today because it is possible not enough quarians may have escaped.
However, if the quarians are trying for peace what harm is there in also evacuating civilians just in case? That seems reasonable, doesn't it? Well it seems reasonable but it might not be practical. If you proclaim to the geth that you want peace while at the same time evacuating civilians this might make it look like you are really just stalling for time while you prepare an attack. So in this case the geth may attack anyway but in the time you spent stalling for peace the geth were just getting stronger.
This brings us to another point: for the quarians time was counting against them. Every moment they delayed, every moment they spent trying to understand why the geth were becoming self-aware was another moment, another day, that another hundred, or thousand, or hundreds of thousands of geth programs were becoming conscious and cohesive. The smarter the geth got the more organized they'd be and thus the more dangerous. The only hope the quarians had to maintain an advantage against the geth was to try and shut them down as soon as possible. Towards that end they sent a signal to shutdown all geth. It isn't clear IIRC whether this was a signal to the geth or a signal to geth overseers to manually (and perhaps violently) shut-down the geth. Regardless, that doesn't matter. For the quarians time had already run out.
So then what if the quarians tried for peace and the geth cooperated? Well, how do you think the Council would react to that? Suddenly an entire civilization of illegal entities has been allowed to rise up in Council space, violating Council law at the highest level. The Council would probably delcare war on the quarians or at best sanction them. The damage this would do could be compounded by the fact that the geth awakening in the first place would have probably wrecked quarian society. As geth were integrated into virutually everything their becoming uncontrollable would cause chaos as important systems from the mundane to the life-threatening would become compromised. Then the economy would crash too; it'd be armaggeddon.
With these options examined it becomes clear that the only responsible course of action the quarian leadership could have pursued would be to try and deactive the geth before very many of them became aware. In this way they'd still have to replace much of their labor force but at least they wouldn't be violating Council law and they wouldn't be putting the survival of their species in danger.
I don't think anyone here really understands just what that genocide of an entire species means. It isn't just people being killed, it is all of their ancestors and descendents being killed right along with them. Their beliefs, their culture, and everything else about them is extinguished.
Synthetic life will never be equal to organic life. If you destroyed all of the geth you could ressurect them provided you had the code for geth A.I. and the schematics to build geth platforms. You would destroy them all, wait six million years, and then bring the geth back in a shor time with only a couple of factories and software development labs. However if you did the same to the quarians, or humans, or any other organic species that would be the end of them, period. Once they are all dead you can't bring them back. You might be able to clone a few, but never enough to have a sustainable population capable of meaningiful growth.
So in the end I support the quarians 100% in reclaiming their homeworld and wiping out the geth. Or should I say, in principal? Truthfully Admiral Xen's message to me was quite chilling. I construed it as a threat. She said that humanity would watch from the sidelines but she placed emphasis on the fact that the quarians would be taking control of the largest synthtic army in the galaxy. That implies that she intends to use that army. For what, I don't know... I do know however that the quarians sent a ship out to find a Reaper, specifically so they could reverse engineer it and take control of the geth, and that this mission is scheduled to end in about another two or three years, right in time for Mass Effect 3...
Who knows what the future will bring. I suspect though that we'll find ourselves fighting against the quarians in some capacity.
#160
Posté 03 mars 2010 - 06:38
Ulysseslotro
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LuckyIronAxe wrote...
It’s obvious that the Quarian people want their homeworld back, and a large majority would go to war for it. Even Tali has the tendency to agree with open war with the Geth to take back the homeworld, the question is are you willing to support the idea of war? Or do you advocate peace, and that the Quarian’s need to find a new colony world?
This has been on my mind for a while now, I’ve been playing a character that makes the choices and dialogue t
hat I personally would make, and I am stuck. Hell it bothers me so much I had a damn nightmare last night about it, so would I advocate open war with the Geth, a people that were wronged 3oo years ago due to the Quarian‘s inability to take responsibility for the life they accidentally created, so the Quarian people might take back their homeworld. Tali, the love of my life wants her home back, that much is clear, and she along with many of her people would sacrifice a great deal for that dream of finally taking their masks off on their ancestral home to be a reality, but is it worth the risk? I would like nothing better then to help the Quarian people get their home back, but to go to war with the Geth! They did nothing wrong, plus war between the Quarians and the Geth would be disastrous for both sides, it’s not even definite that the Quarians could win, the entire fleet could be wiped out over the plantet they evolved from and the Quarian people would be lost forever.
So this is the question, is the hope that Tali’s dream as well as the dream of her people worth open war with the Geth, a people who were greatly wronged. Or should the Quarians give up on the ambitious dream to retake their home world to in favor of peace? Would you’ll be able to look Tali in the eyes and tell her and her people to give up on their homeworld to preserve the quantity of Quarian life, or risk war to improve the quality of Quarian life?
Well I wouldn't support it with their current plans. They really have absolutely no plans to retake it or resettle it. The best plan so far was to re-convert the Geth into their obedient subjects once more. By doing that they eliminate the need to go to war.
But the bigger problem is their planet is no longer capable of humanoid life. The sun is causing to much radiation. They will have to find a new world to live in. Everything that was life on the planet has been vaporized by now. It reminds me of how Earth was during the movie WALL-E which is suprisingly similar themed.
Basically, they need to win the war against Geth and reverse the Suns overgrowth, wait 50 years for radiation levels to drop, and then start re-terreforming their planet with the bacteria/plants/viruses that were on it before it was vaporized by the sun. If they didn't get samples of all the ecosystem on their planet before then they are screwed from re-terreforming it.
They are better off finding a pre-Earth world that they can terraform into the environment they need. And if that is impossible, they need to create shielded colonies with regulated environments like they have on the ships. If they create Biodome cities on a pre-Earth world and introduce their ecosystem and terraform the planet it could be possible for them to recreate an environment suitable for them to live in.
They can have a colony on a planet and be in their environmental suits while they are out of their Biodomes, and be able to undress when they are not in their environmental suits. Their houses can be built with alot of clean rooms in it, a computer to detect foreign contaminants, an entrance room where they can scrub and clean off the contaminants.
If they do go to war with the Geth to retake their homeworld, then I hope they have plans to use EMP type weapons. Orbital bombardment and massive use of EMPs should give them the advantage. But, they will need to deal with the Geth fleet first.
Modifié par Ulysseslotro, 03 mars 2010 - 06:40 .
#161
Posté 03 mars 2010 - 06:59
Alamar2078
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Note: Many of the Quarian ships are armed but [IIRC] the codex entries indicate that out of the 50K or so ships only "hundreds" are dedicated warships.
Their fleet is formidable but only as a huge source of canon fodder against a threat as deadly as the Reapers.
Their fleet is formidable but only as a huge source of canon fodder against a threat as deadly as the Reapers.
#162
Posté 03 mars 2010 - 07:05
Torhagen
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With Legion peace is possible the geth keep to themselves and the quarians to Rannoch
the geth could even help the quarians with their condition. A peaceforce would be adviceable that no quarian starts a war.
the geth could even help the quarians with their condition. A peaceforce would be adviceable that no quarian starts a war.
#163
Posté 04 mars 2010 - 01:50
JulianusApostate
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I think Shandepared sums it up extremely well. I cannot in good conscience support a synthetic hivemind that has already nearly exterminated a culture and people.
The geth have never given any indication that they desire peace until now - and then it's this unique geth that doesn't even say it TO the quarians. Legion makes it sound like the quarians are being stubborn, and stupid, but no one has informed the "stupid" quarians that the geth want peace. And why would he go tell the human that? It seems a little suspicious to be honest (though I don't think Bioware has it in them to make Legion a bad guy). Also, the "heretics" are slaughtering humans because of a math error. That's not something that should be trusted....
Oh also, @Ulysseslotro, Rannoch, the quarian homeworld, has a stable star, though it's more orange than sol. Haestrom is the one with the crazy decaying star.
The geth have never given any indication that they desire peace until now - and then it's this unique geth that doesn't even say it TO the quarians. Legion makes it sound like the quarians are being stubborn, and stupid, but no one has informed the "stupid" quarians that the geth want peace. And why would he go tell the human that? It seems a little suspicious to be honest (though I don't think Bioware has it in them to make Legion a bad guy). Also, the "heretics" are slaughtering humans because of a math error. That's not something that should be trusted....
Oh also, @Ulysseslotro, Rannoch, the quarian homeworld, has a stable star, though it's more orange than sol. Haestrom is the one with the crazy decaying star.
#164
Posté 04 mars 2010 - 01:54
el pardack
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I'm all for the Quarians joining with the Geth on Rannoch and helping each other out.
so peace.
so peace.
#165
Posté 04 mars 2010 - 01:55
Fromyou
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peace all they need to do is talk over it with legion and war is what started the whole mess
#166
Posté 04 mars 2010 - 02:20
EliteZev
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I believe since the Geth have become sentient, they deserve their say in whatever happens between them and the Quarians. Advocating peace is what I would do, Shepard needs the whole galaxy working together for the Reapers. Rewriting the Geth would be unethical because eventually they would begin to question the Quarians again, leading to even more genocide for both sides, peace is the only solution for these two sides. I love Tali, hell...I romanced her 3 times, but just outright destroying the Geth would be wrong on so many levels.I also love Legion, and believe the Geth are a peaceful race who deserve the same rights as any organic race.
Peace.
Peace.
#167
Posté 04 mars 2010 - 02:29
Esker02
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Not sure where you came up with this idea. Presumably between Rael and Xen the Quarians will have discovered what made their property, the Geth, malfunction and start attacking them - and it will be fixed permanently. There's no reason to believe otherwise, particularly because they now know the dangers of programming their machines too close to the point where it could suddenly delude itself into "thinking" it is alive.EliteZev wrote...
Rewriting the Geth would be unethical because eventually they would begin to question the Quarians again, leading to even more genocide for both sides,
The Geth will be returned to a more proper VI state. Their strength returns to their rightful owners, as does the Quarian homeworld, and the fleet loses nothing in terms of firepower. If anything, it becomes more powerful because it is organically driven as opposed to predictably driven by the Geth, as EDI states.
So yes, I too favor peace.
#168
Posté 04 mars 2010 - 02:57
JulianusApostate
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Esker02 wrote...
Not sure where you came up with this idea. Presumably between Rael and Xen the Quarians will have discovered what made their property, the Geth, malfunction and start attacking them - and it will be fixed permanently. There's no reason to believe otherwise, particularly because they now know the dangers of programming their machines too close to the point where it could suddenly delude itself into "thinking" it is alive.EliteZev wrote...
Rewriting the Geth would be unethical because eventually they would begin to question the Quarians again, leading to even more genocide for both sides,
The Geth will be returned to a more proper VI state. Their strength returns to their rightful owners, as does the Quarian homeworld, and the fleet loses nothing in terms of firepower. If anything, it becomes more powerful because it is organically driven as opposed to predictably driven by the Geth, as EDI states.
So yes, I too favor peace.
Exactly! It's that damn neural network. If all the 'singular' geth (I know they're called platforms, but they were manufactured to be indepedent, mind you) didn't have that, they would basically be like every other race's mechs. A real life analogy would be the internet joining together as a single mind and leaving us (NO ONE would stand for that). Except that they have guns. Also, less porn.
#169
Posté 04 mars 2010 - 03:00
datakim
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Esker02 wrote...
Not sure where you came up with this idea. Presumably between Rael and Xen the Quarians will have discovered what made their property, the Geth, malfunction and start attacking them - and it will be fixed permanently. There's no reason to believe otherwise, particularly because they now know the dangers of programming their machines too close to the point where it could suddenly delude itself into "thinking" it is alive.
The Geth will be returned to a more proper VI state. Their strength returns to their rightful owners, as does the Quarian homeworld, and the fleet loses nothing in terms of firepower. If anything, it becomes more powerful because it is organically driven as opposed to predictably driven by the Geth, as EDI states.
So yes, I too favor peace.
I think it might be interesting if you could do this the other way around too and use reaper indoctrination to reprogram the Quarians into working for the Geth instead. That way, we would have peace and a full fleet to combat the reapers. The Quarians would do a better job at it too without that bothersome sentience to get in the way. No need for any loyalty missions for Tali either, she would be our mindless servant.
This peace would indeed be pretty good.
Modifié par datakim, 04 mars 2010 - 03:01 .
#170
Posté 04 mars 2010 - 03:16
Notho
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That little scene between Tali and Legion after Legion's loyalty mission (provided you got the paragon option, not sure what the intimidate does) leads me to believe that peace is possible.
#171
Posté 04 mars 2010 - 04:00
Esker02
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Your events are in no way analogous to my own. I have evidence why the Geth are incapable of operating at as high of an efficiency as an organically led Geth force (EDI's comment in regards to Joker's usefulness). Further, the Geth are also nothing more than the Quarians' malfunctioning property. They have every right to reclaim them should the means to do so present itself. I have a moral high ground here (a respect for property, first and foremost, be it the Geth or the homeworld), whereas you describe pure evil in the senseless subjugation of sentient beings (a sentience, you seem to imply, that the Geth do not share - and I agree).datakim wrote...
I think it might be interesting if you could do this the other way around too and use reaper indoctrination to reprogram the Quarians into working for the Geth instead. That way, we would have peace and a full fleet to combat the reapers. The Quarians would do a better job at it too without that bothersome sentience to get in the way. No need for any loyalty missions for Tali either, she would be our mindless servant.
This peace would indeed be pretty good.
I do, however, want to pay you your due for the Tali comment, a very good try.
#172
Posté 04 mars 2010 - 04:15
TheLostGenius
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This will obviously be an aimportant plot element in ME3. Its questionable wether or not any of your actions will effect the outcome of the Admiralty board's decision to go to war with the Geth. Thought it was interesting that the only Admiral that wanted peace with the Geth was the one that was pressing the most for Tali's exile. (Probably because she and her father were creating weapons against the Geth). In some ways the NON Heretic Geth would make for a powerful ally, more powerful than the Quarians as most believe that the Migrant fleet would perish if it attempted to re-take the home world. You get a threatening email from an Admiral (forget which one) about how humanity will be left behind when the Quarians retake their glory. Even if you heavily emphasized peace to all the Admirals, the decision to go to war with the Geth is likely out of Sheperd's hands. Was surprised how "ok" Tali was with re-writing the Geth, I would think she would have demanded that they be destroyed, which is a renegade action for some reason. Renegade? But When you beat the level they say that non-Heretic Geth will probably be a major threat in the future.
#173
Posté 04 mars 2010 - 07:07
datakim
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Esker02 wrote...
Your events are in no way analogous to my own. I have evidence why the Geth are incapable of operating at as high of an efficiency as an organically led Geth force (EDI's comment in regards to Joker's usefulness). Further, the Geth are also nothing more than the Quarians' malfunctioning property. They have every right to reclaim them should the means to do so present itself. I have a moral high ground here (a respect for property, first and foremost, be it the Geth or the homeworld), whereas you describe pure evil in the senseless subjugation of sentient beings (a sentience, you seem to imply, that the Geth do not share - and I agree).
The point I was trying to make is that the reapers could and do use similar arguments to yours to justify themselves. The organic species are just an "accident" a random result of chaotic evolution and the reapers impose order on us by indoctrination and harvesting. Quarians reprogramming Geth is not that different from the Reapers reprogramming humans. I mean strictly speaking, humans were "bred" and guided by the reapers for the specific purpose of being harvested. From their perspective, organics are just weak biological machines, not truly sentient and easily reprogrammed like Saren, whereas the reapers, being (mostly) synthetic are far superiour and deserving of their power/control and completely justified in their genocidal actions. From their perspective, the Quarians are probably not as sentient as they are.
The evidence suggests that Geth are just as sentient as the Quarians. The fact that their construction is different is no justification for slavery. They are not property, and to design a virus to brainwash them into slaves is no different from reaper indoctrination of Quarians or Humans or any organic sentient species. Whatever claim you might make to justify such an act, could easily be switched around and used by the reapers to justify their indoctrination in turn. Which was my ultimate point. Do you support the reapers and think they are right?
As for the whole EDI comment, its not entirely accurate since the Geth are designed differently so it might not apply, and secondly, EDI is still necessary. It is more of a partnership between EDI and Joker, take either away and the whole suffers. A VI could not do the job EDI does in that partnership. Full AI is required. A peacefull cooperation between Geth and Quarians would be the best, not twisted slavery of either. That would be wrong.
I do, however, want to pay you your due for the Tali comment, a very good try.
Tali is the only Quarian party member. What you are advocating would turn legion into a mindless servant. Reaper indoctrination would do the same to Tali. Same thing.
#174
Posté 04 mars 2010 - 07:14
Mox Ruuga
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Swim Razzo wrote...
What? Ha ha ha, Quarian marines get curb stomped by anything more dangerous than a hand can opener.
Heh.
The motto of QFMC is "We die like animals!"
I'm fairly sure a volus infantry unit would curb stomp the "finest" of the flotilla...
#175
Posté 04 mars 2010 - 07:28
Esker02
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@ Anything regarding the Reapers. I don't pretend to know what they "think," if they truly CAN "think" in any sense that we understand, or anything else about them. I will say that I can't recall any evidence to think they believe organic life is less than synthetic life (they were "insulted" by the fact the Geth worshipped them). In fact, given what we know now, Reapers seem to be the telos of organic life, not synthetic life. Regardless...
etc etc. I reject the supposition that there is nothing more to sentience than programming. People are more than machines. I believe in free will as readily self evident - the composition of Geth does not provide for it. They do not live, they merely simulate life. They are the property of their creators - there is no "brainwashing" at all, the Geth can hardly be said to have self awareness of any degree.datakim wrote...
The evidence suggests that Geth are just as sentient as the Quarians. The fact that their construction is different is no justification for slavery. They are not property, and to design a virus to brainwash them into slaves is no different from reaper indoctrination of Quarians or Humans or any organic sentient species.
Modifié par Esker02, 04 mars 2010 - 07:29 .
