7455 réponses à ce sujet

[Ryzaki]

Goat_Shepard wrote...

It's too late. I feel like Tali is all mine. If Bioware wanted her to be bisexual, they would have put it in the game, and not taken it out. If they had put it in the final product, I would be okay with it, since Tali and Garrus weren't options at all in ME1, but since they went ahead with the hetero plan, it feels inscribed on my brain, and if DLC came out with that content put back in, I'd feel betrayed.

It's selfish, I know, but like you said this is an open debate and that's just how I feel and I'm sure many others feel.

Like Tali said to Admiral Koris: "I don't agree you, but I understand".

You do realize Tali isn't yours right? 

Creepy...betrayed? 

Yeah. You're creeping me out.  You're a little too attached to a fictional character.

But yeah while it does creep me out and I don't understand how one feels that way (you do realize you're sharing her with other M!Sheps right? Even ones douchebag enough to turn her away at the last moment as the "walk of shame" thread implies). You are entitled to feel that way.

But yeah I want Tali DLC you can keep her as "yours" after all you wouldn't be playing my game so what truly does it matter? That attitude reminds me of the kid who instead of giving the kid a piece of his cake would rather spit in it so no one else could have it.

[Octorox]

Goat_Shepard wrote...

It's too late. I feel like Tali is all mine. If Bioware wanted her to be bisexual, they would have put it in the game, and not taken it out. If they had put it in the final product, I would be okay with it, since Tali and Garrus weren't options at all in ME1, but since they went ahead with the hetero plan, it feels inscribed on my brain, and if DLC came out with that content put back in, I'd feel betrayed.

It's selfish, I know, but like you said this is an open debate and that's just how I feel and I'm sure many others feel.

Like Tali said to Admiral Koris: "I don't agree you, but I understand".

This is exactly how I feel. It'd be as if I had sex with Tali and the next day she said "Oh, and by the way Shepard, I'm bi" It wouldn't be relationship crushing but It it would be a "why didn't you tell me that earlier?" kind of thing. (EDIT: obviously it's not a real-life relationship, but in the fictional sense of the game...I guess) It's like if George Lucas retconned in the Star Wars prequels that Princess Leia was bi (never had a crush on her myself, but many a geek has).

Modifié par Octorox, 26 février 2010 - 05:03 .

[MPSai]

danman2424 wrote...

There are many other sexual preferences that are similarly looked down upon that don't harm anyone and that I'm sure you would turn your nose up at or consider them comical if they were added in the game.

Cause interspecies sex isn't weird? Yeah... so... we can't have a gay male Shepard, not that's just too controversial, but we can have sex with aliens. Huh.

Modifié par MPSai, 26 février 2010 - 05:04 .

[FlyinElk212]

So uh, not to stop the intelligent conversation or anything, but I'd just like to point out that the "Ban Same Sex" thread is right under the "Same Sex" thread.

...Just the way the "Same Sex" thread wants it. *bow chica wow wowwww*

[jlb524]

Darth Drago wrote...


-The problem with Jacob I think is the dialog and voice acting you get when talking to him. But to be fair he is the only human option for a female Shepard relationship and considering the other choices kind of bland as well. A male Shepard has 3 human choices.

-As for Jack I kind of like her, I think she’s perfect for a renegade persona Shepard. She’s got that untamed wild spirit that the of the women don’t have.

I'm glad you liked them, but that's not my point.   These romances only appealed to a minority of gamers and they were still included.  I highlight these romances to counter the 'same sex romances only appeal to a minority of gamers and therefore shouldn't be included' argument.

[cutthecameras]

Goat_Shepard wrote...

It's too late. I feel like Tali is all mine. If Bioware wanted her to be bisexual, they would have put it in the game, and not taken it out. If they had put it in the final product, I would be okay with it, since Tali and Garrus weren't options at all in ME1, but since they went ahead with the hetero plan, it feels inscribed on my brain, and if DLC came out with that content put back in, I'd feel betrayed.

It's selfish, I know, but like you said this is an open debate and that's just how I feel and I'm sure many others feel.

Like Tali said to Admiral Koris: "I don't agree you, but I understand".

I understand where you're coming from but getting attached to the way something is in ME seems a bit silly due to the fact that there is nothing cannon about the experience. You can be mean to Tali and ruin your chances of being with her. It always baffles me when I find people saying "Tali is not bi, that's why all of this is wrong." "Oh, well excuse us then. We didn't realize bisexuality had to be imposed on a character for them to develop a love interest in someone of their own sex." Sexuality is much more complex than you've given it credit for, to say that she has to be attracted to all women in order to find female shepard as a viable love interest is to be overly-simplistic on the matter: something BW would likely not do.

Also, given that Tali seemed interested after her loyalty mission there was plenty to go on that she found my fem shep appealing: for her to clean the engines till the end of the game and beyond after she expressed an interest in intimacy feels slightly out of character...

Modifié par cutthecameras, 26 février 2010 - 05:07 .

[FataliTensei]

MPSai wrote...

Cause interspecies sex isn't weird? Yeah... so... we can't have a gay male Shepard, but we can have sex with aliens. Huh.

Yeah.. it kinda is

[EphelDuath666]

danman2424 wrote...
In the end, Bioware went with what they felt was appropriate, and what they felt they had the time and resources to implement.

well, as far as I understand, it was in the game and then they took it out. If this was about them saving time, it would have made sense to keep the homosexual romances in instead of needing additional time to take those romances out of the game again, no?

[BrianWilly]

danman2424 wrote...

BrianWilly wrote...

I'm not aware of anyone who felt excluded from the romantic subplots of this game just because couldn't specifically romance a black woman.  But if such a person exists, they are certainly welcome to post about it and try 

  Why wouldn't there be? You find it unlikely that someone would find a black female attractive? That's just ridiculous....

Certainly there are a lot of people attracted to black women, but would those same people only be attracted to black women and not be able to connect with Ashley, Miranda, or Jack?  You're talking about preference, but preference has nothing to do with sexual orientation.  As a gay man I can't be attracted to any women at all, whatsoever.  The situations, as you present them, are not comparable.

But even in the case that there are those people who can only be biologically attracted to black women...well, like I said, they're perfectly welcome to post about it here if they wanted to.  I've never suggested otherwise.  What would I care if there was a potential black woman to romance in ME3?  That's totally fine by me.

Modifié par BrianWilly, 26 février 2010 - 05:09 .

[tyddrwsau]

Collider wrote...

tyddrwsau wrote...
I'd prefer enabling same-sex romance for existing characters,

NO. don't retcon characters.

See? That's precisely why our group listened and offered new character suggestions!

[Octorox]

MPSai wrote...

danman2424 wrote...

There are many other sexual preferences that are similarly looked down upon that don't harm anyone and that I'm sure you would turn your nose up at or consider them comical if they were added in the game.

Cause interspecies sex isn't weird? Yeah... so... we can't have a gay male Shepard, not that's just too controversial, but we can have sex with aliens. Huh.

At least for me personally, It's not that, it's just that I'd like to know going in. I pursued the Liara relationship in ME1 knowing she (and her entire race) was bi. It just seems like an odd thing to keep from your lover...that's why a wouldn't like Tali relationship DLC.

[danman2424]

tmelange wrote...

danman2424 wrote...

Except DLC missions or Tali romances are things that will be enjoyed by a much larger set of people than homosexual romances and is a much smarter use of their time. They also aren't damaging to the character.

There is no evidence to back up the claim that the Tali fanbase is larger than the fanbase (including gay and het individuals) who would support an m/m option.

The people that will romance Tali don't necessarily have to be of some Tali fanbase. One of my friends who never even played the first romanced Tali and he isn't of any fanbase.

I'm saying Tali is as good of a character as any to add to the small pool of LI characters. I'm sure the developers saw that she was popular with some of the players of the first game and figured that she would be a good candidate for the 3rd romance option. Not just for the Tali fans, but for anyone coming across the game.

[Jimmy Fury]

Octorox wrote...
This is exactly how I feel. It'd be as if I had sex with Tali and the next day she said "Oh, and by the way Shepard, I'm bi" It wouldn't be relationship crushing but It it would be a "why didn't you tell me that earlier?" kind of thing. (EDIT: obviously it's not a real-life relationship, but in the fictional sense of the game...I guess) It's like if George Lucas retconned in the Star Wars prequels that Princess Leia was bi (never had a crush on her myself, but many a geek has).

I understand both of your arguments but I think there is a minor flaw in your reasoning.
If, theoretically speaking, a DLC was put out that could reactivate the removed dialogue, it wouldn't actually change anything in either of your save files. If your Shepard is male and you have romanced Tali, there's no logical reason for her to say she's bi. It's not going to go in an edit your files and change old conversations or anything. Your history with Tali is just that, history. It's not going to be rewritten.
Unless your shepard somehow undergoes a sex change halfway through you playthrough, a DLC activating Tali for females won't have any effect on your game...

[Goat_Shepard]

Ryzaki wrote...

Goat_Shepard wrote...

It's too late. I feel like Tali is all mine. If Bioware wanted her to be bisexual, they would have put it in the game, and not taken it out. If they had put it in the final product, I would be okay with it, since Tali and Garrus weren't options at all in ME1, but since they went ahead with the hetero plan, it feels inscribed on my brain, and if DLC came out with that content put back in, I'd feel betrayed.

It's selfish, I know, but like you said this is an open debate and that's just how I feel and I'm sure many others feel.

Like Tali said to Admiral Koris: "I don't agree you, but I understand".

You do realize Tali isn't yours right? 

Creepy...betrayed? 

Yeah. You're creeping me out.  You're a little too attached to a fictional character.

But yeah while it does creep me out and I don't understand how one feels that way (you do realize you're sharing her with other M!Sheps right? Even ones douchebag enough to turn her away at the last moment as the "walk of shame" thread implies). You are entitled to feel that way.

But yeah I want Tali DLC you can keep her as "yours" after all you wouldn't be playing my game so what truly does it matter? That attitude reminds me of the kid who instead of giving the kid a piece of his cake would rather spit in it so no one else could have it.

Umm yeah you're missing the point. When I say "My" I mean MaleShepard. It's in the lore, whether or not there exists this extra content, it wasn't implemented in the final product. Don't change the dynamics of my (our) characters once it's been established.

[Collider]

tyddrwsau wrote...
This gets back to my usual argument that relationships with aliens far transcend sexual orientation. If you can move past your attraction to your own species (and personal "type" within it), get past your native culture and its assumptions of gender behaviour and find yourself in love with an alien - perhaps even interested in physical intimacy with someone of wildly different anatomy - that really seems to go to a whole new level.

No way. That is absolutely ridiculous. These aliens still conform to the male/female dichotomy. They were created specifically so human players could relate to them. They are not actual aliens. They are humanoids, with VERY human features and personalities. The argument you are using is terrible.

[Ryzaki]

Goat_Shepard wrote...


Umm yeah you're missing the point. When I say "My" I mean MaleShepard. It's in the lore, whether or not there exists this extra content, it wasn't implemented in the final product. Don't change the dynamics of my (our) characters once it's been established.

Great all you have to do is not download the DLC! See your lore is perfectly fine. And if you're going to go on the extra content speel I hope you're not planning on using Kasumi or Zaeed. Or the hammerhead. Or any additional DLC characters and items.

But all those things would be optional. So you wouldn't have to worry about Tali romancing FemShep as long as you don't download the DLC. Everybody wins.

Unless of course you happen to be the kid who wants to spit in the cake.

[danman2424]

BrianWilly wrote...

I myself don't buy the "there was no time" excuse.  They had enough time to more than double the amount of romances that they had from ME1, each with its own plotting that wove into the main story.  They had the time to write and record all the same-sex dialogue.  Random solitary modders on Das Internets have been able to add same-sex romances into this game with what meager resources they've had, in almost no time at all.  Exactly how much time were the devs missing that they couldn't do the same?  Especially considering that everything with ME2 seemed to go on schedule with no hitches.

If they did have all of this extra time that you say they did, then I'm sure they would've spent it on even more female romances for male Shepard and male ones for female Shepard rather than spend it on what you would've wanted them to.

[Octorox]

Jimmy Fury wrote...

Octorox wrote...
This is exactly how I feel. It'd be as if I had sex with Tali and the next day she said "Oh, and by the way Shepard, I'm bi" It wouldn't be relationship crushing but It it would be a "why didn't you tell me that earlier?" kind of thing. (EDIT: obviously it's not a real-life relationship, but in the fictional sense of the game...I guess) It's like if George Lucas retconned in the Star Wars prequels that Princess Leia was bi (never had a crush on her myself, but many a geek has).

I understand both of your arguments but I think there is a minor flaw in your reasoning.
If, theoretically speaking, a DLC was put out that could reactivate the removed dialogue, it wouldn't actually change anything in either of your save files. If your Shepard is male and you have romanced Tali, there's no logical reason for her to say she's bi. It's not going to go in an edit your files and change old conversations or anything. Your history with Tali is just that, history. It's not going to be rewritten.
Unless your shepard somehow undergoes a sex change halfway through you playthrough, a DLC activating Tali for females won't have any effect on your game...

The way I see it though I that you are Shepard and can influence events but otherwise the universe is predefined. That is, the choices you make affect the universe but the rest of the universe doesn't just conform to you. DLC that makes changes to existing character's orientations would go against that idea and feel odd. Tali is Tali, she is a character created by Bioware that reacts to your character as she would. My Tali can't be straight while yours is bi, as sexual orientation is a biological condition, just as much as gender or eye color. 

Modifié par Octorox, 26 février 2010 - 05:14 .

[tmelange]

danman2424 wrote...

tmelange wrote...

danman2424 wrote...

Except DLC missions or Tali romances are things that will be enjoyed by a much larger set of people than homosexual romances and is a much smarter use of their time. They also aren't damaging to the character.

There is no evidence to back up the claim that the Tali fanbase is larger than the fanbase (including gay and het individuals) who would support an m/m option.

The people that will romance Tali don't necessarily have to be of some Tali fanbase. One of my friends who never even played the first romanced Tali and he isn't of any fanbase.

I'm saying Tali is as good of a character as any to add to the small pool of LI characters. I'm sure the developers saw that she was popular with some of the players of the first game and figured that she would be a good candidate for the 3rd romance option. Not just for the Tali fans, but for anyone coming across the game.

My point was that there is no evidence that there is a larger group who would enjoy a Tali romance than an m/m romance of some sort. Casting one group as a minority as opposed to some other niche group in an attempt to prove one is better than another is not a fair or a sound approach sans actual evidence. Personally, I did not enjoy the Tali romance option at all. I thought it was stupid pandering that came out of the blue and had no basis in ME1. :shrug: Perhaps...there might be many more people who feel as I do. We'll likely never know.

[SirGladiator]

Tali makes it quite clear that she is in love with Shepard, MaleShep and FemShep alike. The only difference is that FemShep players don't get to enjoy the full romance that MaleShep players do. Its rather comicly strange to suggest there would be something wrong with letting FemShep players simply play the romance the same way MaleShep players do. I agree with the vast majority of folks who would like that change made.

[danman2424]

Yeled wrote...

I don't buy the "no time" argument either. They had time to include dying fish and space hampsters. Are you saying that if we had delayed ME2 by a month we might have had m/m options? I don't think so.

They made a choice. The reason for that choice is specific. We don't know what the reason is. But its not a matter of time and resources. This isn't a budget title made by three nerds in a basement.

Time is the least of the reasons for why there is no gay sex in the games. It is one reason why a variety of other preferences, like black females or white males were not added though I'm sure.

[Endurance_117]

Also I don't under stand why there is sex with clothing? In Heavy Rain I was controlling the sex nude lol

[Goat_Shepard]

Ryzaki wrote...

Goat_Shepard wrote...


Umm yeah you're missing the point. When I say "My" I mean MaleShepard. It's in the lore, whether or not there exists this extra content, it wasn't implemented in the final product. Don't change the dynamics of my (our) characters once it's been established.

Great all you have to do is not download the DLC! See your lore is perfectly fine. And if you're going to go on the extra content speel I hope you're not planning on using Kasumi or Zaeed. Or the hammerhead. Or any additional DLC characters and items.

But all those things would be optional. So you wouldn't have to worry about Tali romancing FemShep as long as you don't download the DLC. Everybody wins.

Unless of course you happen to be the kid who wants to spit in the cake.

Correction. I'm the kid who DOESN'T want to SPLIT his piece of cake with anyone else. Find yourself your own brand new piece of cake, let me enjoy mine.
Disclaimer: Knows the difference between fantasy and reality, enjoys real life cake as well.

[jlb524]

Octorox wrote...

The way I see it though I that you are Shepard and can influence events but otherwise the universe is predefined. That is, the choices you make affect the universe but the rest of the universe doesn't just conform to you.

I see that there's a bit deal of conforming to Shepard along the lines of Paragon/Renegade.   Some of the changes Shepard has affected in characters over the past two games along these lines seem a bit OOC.  But, BW does this to give Paragon/Renegade players unique and meaningful experiences.   This doesn't seem to bother most people.

[Octorox]

SirGladiator wrote...

Tali makes it quite clear that she is in love with Shepard, MaleShep and FemShep alike. The only difference is that FemShep players don't get to enjoy the full romance that MaleShep players do. Its rather comicly strange to suggest there would be something wrong with letting FemShep players simply play the romance the same way MaleShep players do. I agree with the vast majority of folks who would like that change made.

She does? Love is different than physical attraction, which she definitely displayed toward my Male Shepard.