7455 réponses à ce sujet

[Ninja Mage]

And for clarification ( Because god knows collider won't do it) When i said "Include one thing but exclude the other'' I was referring to having Liara and Kelly as lesbian love interests, but omitting any type of gay romance whatsoever.

[Arik7]

100 pages! 

[Ninja Mage]

[The Uncanny]

Arik7 wrote...

100 pages! 

I can't believe it! How did we manage that? (Does happy dance. ) We should have a party or something!

An extra wizard smiley for everyone who contributed!

[Andaius20]

Technically Liara isn't a "lesbian" since Asari are mono gendered....

[Collider]

Andaius20 wrote...

Technically Liara isn't a "lesbian" since Asari are mono gendered....

Codex says the Asari are an all-female race. Liara is bisexual.

[Wittand25]

Collider wrote...

Andaius20 wrote...

Technically Liara isn't a "lesbian" since Asari are mono gendered....

Codex says the Asari are an all-female race. Liara is bisexual.

More like pansexual. She is willing to mate with someone who is not even her own species afterall.

[Andaius20]

The only reason they have "female" parts is because they all have to be equipped with parts to birth and raise the children. They are mono-gendered they have no "male/female" there is only Asari. They technically don't even reproduce sexually since they don't use any DNA from the "father". They do a I guess type of Asexual reproduction.

Modifié par Andaius20, 05 mars 2010 - 12:46 .

[Malastrail]

Just finished reading this entire thread and I wholeheartedly support it. (rummages through the medicine cabinet for eye-drops)

[Lightice_av]

The only reason they have "female" parts is because they all have to be equipped with parts to birth and raise the children. They are mono-gendered they have no "male/female" there is only Asari. They technically don't even reproduce sexually since they don't use any DNA from the "father". They do a I guess type of Asexual reproduction.

Read the Codex. They are an all-female species. They reproduce through parthenogenesis. There are many real life all-female species by which they are modelled by. Read here for more information A species that has only one gender is by definition either all-female or hermaphroditic; the asari are all-female.

Here, a direct quote from the Codex: 

An all-female race, the asari reproduce through a form of
parthenogenesis. They can attune their nervous system to that of
another individual of any gender, and of any species, to reproduce.
This capability has led to unseemly and inaccurate rumors about asari
promiscuity.

Modifié par Lightice_av, 05 mars 2010 - 01:04 .

[The Uncanny]

Goat_Shepard wrote...


Sorry, said I wouldn't post again but I wanted to add in good faith after smoking a cigarette that I remember someone on here saying "we aren't saying there should be gay romance, we're saying we'd like it in ME3", and I wanted to say that I disagree with that statement. If I recall the Tali Love thread from ME1 did not have a "we'd like it but no biggie" attitude, they were DEMANDING Tali be added to ME2 as a LI, and the enthusiasm I think affected Bioware's decisions in ME2. If you want something, you gotta TAKE IT.

What did you say 400-500 members? The one I remembered saying that probably isn't representative of the collective, but I just wanted to add that the Talimancers threatened death by stoning so I suggest you do the same.

Wow. I guess that was aimed at me.

I'm really not claiming to be representative - when I posted in response to Bob5312 my use of 'we' when I meant to say 'I' was a genuine mistake which I regret. I don't mean to put words in anyone else's mouth. If I'm in the minority with that opinion, then so be it. I'm all about the peaceful protest and if others want to storm the barricades with torches and muskets then good luck to them. Back in the old forums we actually managed to have one flame free thread on this very issue and Stanley Woo contributed to it. He told us that demanding that something should be included in ME would get us nowhere. We needed to put our point across with reason and civility and look for BW to take what we said into account. I'll stick by that - at the time I thought he was right and, even though I - and it would seem many others - felt frozen out by ME2, I still do.

[Ryzaki]

SkullandBonesmember wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Never said I wouldn't like it if there were. But lets be honest something like Halo, Modern Warfare, Rockband, A wii game, will mostly outsell it and corporations go were the money is. Sad but true. If those kind of games made a chuckload of money like those games do you can beat your sweet a*** there would be a lot of them.

Heck I'm a Suikoden Tatics girl. You think I'm not sad there's not many games like that? 

That's just because there are barely any made. There's next to nothing for us to buy. We don't have the option. Heavy Rain is certainly turning a profit. The more developers make games like Heavy Rain, the more story-driven game fans will fork over their money. It's that simple. Could you imagine if as of March 5th, 2010, the only movies that would continue to be produced are actions flicks? Would the movie industry die? No, there are many fans of action films, but fans of other genres would rightfully feel as if they've been ignored.

Of course. I hate oversaturation of the shooter market as much as anyone else. (And yeah there are starting to be far too many shooters for my taste. I mean fine I don't mind them on their own but I swear if a see a JRPG with shooting mechanics I'm going to scream. ) As long as there's a market there will be made games for that market. I don't think we have too much to worry about. They may not be made as often as the big money makers (and Heavy Rain is more of an exception than the rule) but they will be made.

[The Uncanny]

cutthecameras wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

...Kelly...ugh....that...strip dance made me want to kick puppies.

Yeah, I don't even flirt with her.  I wanted a legit f/f option not a joke!

I wanted one too but I must admit, Kelly kinda grew on me for reasons unknown. She appealed to me because I flirted with her just for kicks, finding the whole thing hilarious. It was like my Shepard saw her as this gullible little thing that she could play with.

An actual Li however would have made my desire to toy with Kelly quite low on my priority list.

I feel rather sorry for Kelly. I think if it weren't for that monumentally clumsy easter egg stuff she'd be more fondly thought of.

[Servo to the bitter end]

Gonna quote myself from earlier in the thread...

Actually, if anyone is willing to fire up their game, they can peek in the codex and see that all asari are sexually female.

Monogendered does not mean "no gender" - it means "one gender."  They are a race of women.

Women.  Asari are women.

This isn't about their orientation.  This is their biological sex.

This.  Don't bring this up, because it's not an argument.  Everything in the game and the codex and the lore surrounding it establishes the asari as women.

Besides, even if you want to nitpick and say "well, she's still an alien so it's not a lesbian romance," that doesn't change the fact that if Shepard is romantically and sexually attracted to Liara, who has all the traditional attributes of an attractive human female, she would identify as either a bisexual or a lesbian.  Which she does - she can positively affirm her sexual orientation in her interactions with Kaidan and Liara.  MShep cannot.

Back on track!

Modifié par TommyServo, 05 mars 2010 - 02:58 .

[Ryzaki]

The Uncanny wrote...
I feel rather sorry for Kelly. I think if it weren't for that monumentally clumsy easter egg stuff she'd be more fondly thought of.

BioWare pretty much made her a shallower version of the popular Ms. Fanservice. I don't mind Ms. Fanservice when they add something to the plot, which for me Kelly fails spectacularly at. And yeah. That stripdance. Saw that part and went "...really BioWare really?" *facepalms*

Modifié par Ryzaki, 05 mars 2010 - 02:53 .

[Paty V]

Asari are ****s in Maiden years, and Leonard Nemoy looks Vulcan outside of makeup. What I want to know is who else played through as a girl. After you beat the suicide mission *which I beat with miranda lacking loyalty and earned the achieve no one left behind* You can turn into Commander Shepard SR2 call girl. My girlfriend barely pushed me to go and have sex with the different male's, my character was extremely attractive and I wanted to see her get slammed. Garrus' scene is boring, Jacob takes his shirt off and does the the deed like a well endowed black man and I am still working on thane. Basically you hump dump and hump someone else, then after all is done you call kelly up and enjoy the best scene out of the whole game, I mean lets face it...she puts out the most, and has a striking resemblance to Molly Ringwald...MEEEOW

[Rainbow_Girl]

Of course there should be same sex romance! Why even discussing it? So people get offended?? Meanwhile I've spent my life beeing discriminated, looked down at and attacked just because of my sexuality.
So excuse-me if I can't feel sorry for those beeing offended.
I can't even tell you how happy I am to be able to play my favorite game Dragon Age and NOT beeing discriminated!

You rock BioWare!

[Servo to the bitter end]

Rainbow_Girl wrote...

Of course there should be same sex romance! Why even discussing it? So people get offended?? Meanwhile I've spent my life beeing discriminated, looked down at and attacked just because of my sexuality.
So excuse-me if I can't feel sorry for those beeing offended.
I can't even tell you how happy I am to be able to play my favorite game Dragon Age and NOT beeing discriminated!

You rock BioWare!

Also, this.

I would like to stress, since it's come up a couple of times over the course of the thread, that most if not all of the people pushing for this do not think Bioware are bigots.  We think they're great - they have an awesome track record for including this stuff, and their games are seriously quality.  It's because they're so awesome that the lack of s/s male content, and well-realized s/s female content in ME2, is so startling.  It's clear that they planned on doing it - why not go ahead and really do it?  Or at least, provide a satisfying answer as to why they haven't.  Unfortunately, as we've explained many many times, and as elucidated in the FAQ, the Muzyka answer doesn't address that. 

[Crazy_Cat_Lady]

TommyServo wrote...

Gonna quote myself from earlier in the thread...

Actually, if anyone is willing to fire up their game, they can peek in the codex and see that all asari are sexually female.

Monogendered does not mean "no gender" - it means "one gender."  They are a race of women.

Women.  Asari are women.

This isn't about their orientation.  This is their biological sex.

This.  Don't bring this up, because it's not an argument.  Everything in the game and the codex and the lore surrounding it establishes the asari as women.

Besides, even if you want to nitpick and say "well, she's still an alien so it's not a lesbian romance," that doesn't change the fact that if Shepard is romantically and sexually attracted to Liara, who has all the traditional attributes of an attractive human female, she would identify as either a bisexual or a lesbian.  Which she does - she can positively affirm her sexual orientation in her interactions with Kaidan and Liara.  MShep cannot.

Back on track!

"There is some conflicting information regarding the gender of the asari.
Though they resemble females, at least to humans, asari are non-gender
specific, with no concept of gender differences. Liara says her species
is "mono-gendered—male and female have no real meaning for us," and, if
asked, says that she is "not precisely a woman". However, in the Codex it
is stated that the asari are an all-female race. The Galactic Codex:
Essentials Edition 2183 says that "while asari have only one gender,
they are not asexual like single-celled life—all asari are sexually
female", and according to Liara they also have maternal instincts. They
are innately different from humans for asari can crossbreed with other
species and inherit certain traits.
"

- masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Asari

Technically they are a mono-gendered race and neither male nor female.  When put into the context of our viewpoint of sexuality they're seen as female even though that's not entirely true.  You can debate the merit of this technicality, but this is likely the excuse Bioware uses when they say "shepard is 100% straight" and someone brings up Liara.  My feeling though is that if FemShep can get involved with Liara, that FemShep views Liara as female and therefore it being a lesbian relationship but from Liara's viewpoint (or any other Asari) they wouldn't consider it a lesbian relationship.  So it all just comes down to a person's viewpoint.

[Ryzaki]

Crazy_Cat_Lady wrote...
"There is some conflicting information regarding the gender of the asari.
Though they resemble females, at least to humans, asari are non-gender
specific, with no concept of gender differences. Liara says her species
is "mono-gendered—male and female have no real meaning for us," and, if
asked, says that she is "not precisely a woman". However, in the Codex it
is stated that the asari are an all-female race. The Galactic Codex:
Essentials Edition 2183 says that "while asari have only one gender,
they are not asexual like single-celled life—all asari are sexually
female", and according to Liara they also have maternal instincts. They
are innately different from humans for asari can crossbreed with other
species and inherit certain traits.
"

- masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Asari

Technically they are a mono-gendered race and neither male nor female.  When put into the context of our viewpoint of sexuality they're seen as female even though that's not entirely true.  You can debate the merit of this technicality, but this is likely the excuse Bioware uses when they say "shepard is 100% straight" and someone brings up Liara.  My feeling though is that if FemShep can get involved with Liara, that FemShep views Liara as female and therefore it being a lesbian relationship but from Liara's viewpoint (or any other Asari) they wouldn't consider it a lesbian relationship.  So it all just comes down to a person's viewpoint.

ME Codex > ME Wiki

I just can't help it. If asari really aren't female they should look more andryonous. The backpedaling just makes me sigh. And Kelly is female so that excuse doesn't even fly anymore.

Instead of looking like this: 

They instead look like this: http://savetherobot.files.wordpress.com/2007/11/liara.jpg

Is it really so hard to make an andrynous race without any boobs? Really? 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 05 mars 2010 - 03:14 .

[Crazy_Cat_Lady]

Ryzaki wrote...

ME Codex > ME Wiki

I just can't help it. If asari really aren't female they should look more andryonous.

Liara telling you she is not exactly a woman > ME Codex.

If they looked more andryonous they'd probably be less appealing to look at....at least from the perspective of the average person who picks up this game.

Modifié par Crazy_Cat_Lady, 05 mars 2010 - 03:15 .

[Servo to the bitter end]

I'll pull this out:

However, in the Codex it

is stated that the asari are an all-female race. The Galactic Codex:

Essentials Edition 2183 says that "while asari have only one gender,

they are not asexual like single-celled life—all asari are sexually

female", and according to Liara they also have maternal instincts.

Again, monogendered does not mean "no gender" - it means "one gender." Female. And again, that doesn't change the fact that for a woman to find an asari attractive, she'd likely identify as bisexual or gay.

I'll grudgingly admit that, as Casey Hudson obtusely stated, ME1 maybe did not feature same sex relationships because it was between a human and a non-human. But it did depict FemShep as a lesbian, if the play chose to. It doesn't depict MShep as gay anywhere. The dialog to do so was voiced, but never implemented.

I still think the asari thing is ridiculous, and not an argument. They're women.

[tyddrwsau]

Bob5312 wrote...

I agree with the 'invisible gays syndrome' issue, but what I dislike more is the fact that virtually every time a gay character is included in a story their sexuality is central to their character and forms a major plot point.  There are no 'action heros' that also just happen to be gay.  I don't think that ME2 is necessarily an example of this problem (invisible gays, that is), but your point is quite valid. 

I think that what you say here contributes to why I think the option to play Shepard as gay or bi would be a very positive thing. I've read discussions elsewhere that reference conversations with writers who argue that good writing necessitates that characters interact with a male or female protagonist differently: this idea is that it is most believable when an NPC acknowledges that the protagonist (Shepard in this case) is a man or a woman, gay or straight, and treats him/her differently. There's rationality in that argument because real people do treat each other differently based on the assumptions they make about who each other are. Something that I really like about Mass Effect, though, is that everyone treats Shepard as Shepard.

It may have come to pass because of the technical problems of implementing two or more completely parallel conversation trees with voice-over, but the end result is positive. When Shepard is a woman, she's got all the same potential to be powerful and forceful as her counterpart. When Shepard is a man, he's got all the same potential to be empathetic and supportive as his counterpart. I use those examples because they exemplify stereotypical Western gender roles. Having the option to play a gay or straight male or female Shepard who is as capable of all these traits is a fantastic opportunity to include sexual identity without making it a "major plot point" and presents an "action hero" who can be a sexual minority. For those of us who are gay, that gives us a chance to identify with the character in similar ways to how straight people do. For open minded players who aren't, it provides more play options.

Collider wrote...
a) I have no problem with new characters that are gay or bisexual. I
have no problem with Bioware putting new gay and bisexual characters in
the game for whatever reason.
I have a problem with patches and DLC that retcon characters into another sexuality.
c)
I have no problem with existing characters from ME1 and ME2 becoming
open to another gender in their romance in ME3, although I believe it's
likely to be a waste of time to do it.
d) I am doubtful that there
are enough people who wouldn't buy the game if it did not have gay male
romance in it, to warrant Bioware including gay male content on the
basis of money. That is not me saying that Bioware should not have
homosexual content, whatsoever.

That's a good articulation of your position, Collider. Thanks. Your point ( is why I'd prefer that they add same-sex romance in ME2 through an expansion, if they do, rather than a smaller DLC item. I don't want to put words in your mouth, but it sounds like your resistence to "retcon" is that it changes the current game experience, possibly tacks on material that is not fully integrated with the story (a problematic way to add new story elements). For those reasons I'd rather the addition be integrated into more pivotal content (and I sure wouldn't mind an ME2 expansion!).

[Ryzaki]

Crazy_Cat_Lady wrote...
Liara telling you she is not exactly a woman > ME Codex.

If they looked more andryonous they'd probably be less appealing to look at....at least from the perspective of the average person who picks up this game.

Here's the whole bit of what she says: 
She says male and female have NO MEANING not that it doesn't exist. And goes on to say they fulfill a female role.

If you're going to claim a race is one gender and its not male or female then make them androynous don't do say that and then make them practically female in everything else and hide behind the "they're not female!" shield when you place a lesbian romance in the game. No one forced BW to place a lesbian romance in the game.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 05 mars 2010 - 03:19 .