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Same Sex Romances


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#2551
Lightice_av

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But for the second game? The focus on romance was so much larger right from the get-go, and from what we know the development process went quite smoothly without any hitches or delays at all. They had more than enough time and resources to implement a gay romance if they wanted to.



The thing is, we don't know. From what we've gathered from various stuff in ME2's game folders, there were fairly major script changes in a relatively late point of the project, and not just concerning the romance subplots. Unlike with ME1 where the recordings of the discarded romance paths were there in full, ME2 only contains scraps. It's possible for example that there was debate of whether to make the same-sex romances carbon copies of the standard versions, or to give them scripts of their own, and as a result neither option came to being.

But that's just one guess among many, too. I really wish that some Bioware (ex?)employee would come forth with actual information about what happened.

#2552
Sable Rhapsody

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Lightice_av wrote...
It's possible for example that there was debate of whether to make the same-sex romances carbon copies of the standard versions, or to give them scripts of their own, and as a result neither option came to being.
But that's just one guess among many, too. I really wish that some Bioware (ex?)employee would come forth with actual information about what happened.


Not likely until after the trilogy's completed, if even then.

Just popping in here to show support for y'all. Though IMO, if they do implement a same-sex option, I'd like it to be more than just a carbon copy of the hetero option.  Same-sex relationships are, in their essentials, no different from heterosexual relationships--love, trust, intimacy, companionship are the same in both.  But there are different dynamics created by virtue of having different physiological sexes and/or gender identities involved.

Personally, I thought DA:O did it reasonably well.  Most of the dialogue was the same, with some differences bringing up the same-sex relationship.  That's just fine and dandy.  Mods that just turn off the gender check inevitably feel kind of wonky to me--parts of the relationship are clearly written for heterosexual relationships, even not including the use of gendered pronouns.

Though I could see just using the heterosexual dialogue with different pronouns for the alien romances, partially because the fact that you're of entirely different species probably matters more than the sex of the partners.  Same-sex qualities probably pale in the face of chirality problems, chafing, hallucinations, fluid contamination, and immune system worries ^_^

#2553
JediMB

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For some reason I've found that I'd really like a semi-romance option for FemShep and Jack. It could start out like the one-night stand thing, like it was for MaleShep, but with the option to continue on a Paragon path. Jack would reveal more about herself, and eventually she'd approach you about sex again, but there'd once again be a Paragon option of telling Jack that she's obviously not really into girls (her interpretation of her feelings are all screwed up from her past)... leading to more of a platonic soul mate type relationship.

*shrugs*

I just want more variety to the interaction with Shepard's teammates, I suppose.

Modifié par JediMB, 06 mars 2010 - 01:09 .


#2554
tyddrwsau

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Sable Rhapsody wrote...
Just popping in here to show support for y'all. Though IMO, if they do implement a same-sex option, I'd like it to be more than just a carbon copy of the hetero option.  Same-sex relationships are, in their essentials, no different from heterosexual relationships--love, trust, intimacy, companionship are the same in both.  But there are different dynamics created by virtue of having different physiological sexes and/or gender identities involved.


I certainly see your point, here, but I personally place my emphasis on "Same-sex relationships are, in their essentials, no different from heterosexual relationships." I've seen game writers state in interviews that they face a particular challenge when trying to write a character who is "believably gay." Because lesbian/gay/bisexual people are every bit as diverse as the population at large (not unified by any singular cultural background, personality type, or shared ideology) the key in creating a fictional gay person is creating a character who fits in their setting. Come up with a character who fits in Shepard's environment first. Establish that he or she is attracted to people of the same sex. Then you have a character who is believably gay.

When it comes to different dynamics that result from different sex or gender identity, most folk in support of this thread seem to favour a more "masculine" type of same-sex male romantic interest. That concept depends on gender identity, but needn't be overemphasized to be effective.

Personally, I thought DA:O did it reasonably well.  Most of the dialogue was the same, with some differences bringing up the same-sex relationship.  That's just fine and dandy.


I mostly agree. I rolled my eyes at the barrage of "is it OK with you?" dialogue. My Warden was flattered to be called "handsome" though.

Though I could see just using the heterosexual dialogue with different pronouns for the alien romances, partially because the fact that you're of entirely different species probably matters more than the sex of the partners.  Same-sex qualities probably pale in the face of chirality problems, chafing, hallucinations, fluid contamination, and immune system worries ^_^


I've made the same point. It is true that the alien characters are fictional, their alien biology and potentially radically different anatomy are easily dismissed as "atmospheric text" while players react to them more based on the players' own cultural and gender assumptions. I think, nonetheless, that the potential exists to write alien romance as its own unique and transcendant phenomenon. (Remember, too, that to Garrus, Thane or Tali Commander Shepard is also an alien. Liara is a special case since Asari culture actively favors those who bond with people outside of their own species and looks down on Asari/Asari pairings - that itself is kind of amazing, if you think about it.) I quite like the alien romances, conceptually. I cannot believe that the "But you're a guy!" issue is a bigger deal than "But you're a lizard!" or "But you're a fleshy hairy thing!"

Deviating from the topic a bit - has anyone else noticed that Humans are the only sapients with hair? Unless the Quarians or Volus are shaggy under those suits, that is.

#2555
FiveThreeTen

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tyddrwsau wrote...


Deviating from the topic a bit - has anyone else noticed that Humans are the only sapients with hair? Unless the Quarians or Volus are shaggy under those suits, that is.


Well, Liara does have eyebrows...maybe they are "drawn" though

PS  : I support this thread

Modifié par FiveThreeTen, 06 mars 2010 - 04:44 .


#2556
sw33ts

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FiveThreeTen wrote...

tyddrwsau wrote...


Deviating from the topic a bit - has anyone else noticed that Humans are the only sapients with hair? Unless the Quarians or Volus are shaggy under those suits, that is.


Well, Liara does have eyebrows...maybe they are "drawn" though

PS  : I support this thread


They are.  None of the other asari's have hair.

Thanks for the support.

#2557
sw33ts

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JediMB wrote...

For some reason I've found that I'd really like a semi-romance option for FemShep and Jack. It could start out like the one-night stand thing, like it was for MaleShep, but with the option to continue on a Paragon path. Jack would reveal more about herself, and eventually she'd approach you about sex again, but there'd once again be a Paragon option of telling Jack that she's obviously not really into girls (her interpretation of her feelings are all screwed up from her past)... leading to more of a platonic soul mate type relationship.

*shrugs*

I just want more variety to the interaction with Shepard's teammates, I suppose.


I wouldn't mind that, but would she just do that for Female Shepards or both Shepards?  Because if she only does it for Female Shepard that kinda goes against what Kelly said...

Modifié par sw33ts, 06 mars 2010 - 05:21 .


#2558
Lightice_av

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They are. None of the other asari's have hair.


They all do have eyelashes...

Liara's "eyebrows" seem to be natural patterns or tattoos, as many asari have various kinds of designs on their faces.



The simple reason why hair is so rare in ME universe is that the Unreal Engine doesn't handle it very well. Humans only have hair because it would be jarring for everybody to be bald.

#2559
sw33ts

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This is slightly offtopic...but in Batman: AA Poison Ivy has flowy red hair...





I forgot all about eyelashes though.

#2560
Collider

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Sabul wrote...

Collider wrote...

Madison has no personality.

You are back Collider? This is wonderful news. I have missed you man. Still in support of a new gay character? I mean new to the games. I would still very much like Hendel.

Absolutely. I doubt anyone from the books will be in the game, but they could still do a gay soldier or something. Anything but an assassin, or someone else morally questionable.

#2561
DaeJi

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Collider wrote...
Absolutely. I doubt anyone from the books will be in the game, but they could still do a gay soldier or something. Anything but an assassin, or someone else morally questionable.


The Illusive man was introduced in a book, and there is a N7 mission that involved the Idenna (I won't spoil it, but it's not a big thing), so the books do bleed into the game.

#2562
Lightice_av

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Not to mention that Tali mentions the incident which Ascension revolves around as an explanation to her distrust towards Cerberus. Whether Hendel is going to be in ME3 depends on the timeline; ME3 should either take place three years after ME2, or something unexpected should happen that alters his schedule. Neither is impossible, but I wonder if his role will be that of a squad member or something else entirely. Much also depends on what happens to Gillian; Hendel won't leave his ward behind voluntarily, to be sure.

#2563
Collider

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DaeJi wrote...

Collider wrote...
Absolutely. I doubt anyone from the books will be in the game, but they could still do a gay soldier or something. Anything but an assassin, or someone else morally questionable.


The Illusive man was introduced in a book,

I mean as squad mates, but I see your point.

#2564
SirGladiator

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sw33ts wrote...

JediMB wrote...

For some reason I've found that I'd really like a semi-romance option for FemShep and Jack. It could start out like the one-night stand thing, like it was for MaleShep, but with the option to continue on a Paragon path. Jack would reveal more about herself, and eventually she'd approach you about sex again, but there'd once again be a Paragon option of telling Jack that she's obviously not really into girls (her interpretation of her feelings are all screwed up from her past)... leading to more of a platonic soul mate type relationship.

*shrugs*

I just want more variety to the interaction with Shepard's teammates, I suppose.


I wouldn't mind that, but would she just do that for Female Shepards or both Shepards?  Because if she only does it for Female Shepard that kinda goes against what Kelly said...


That actually would be an interesting idea, for either Shep that didn't want to romance Jack but wanted to let her down easily.  FemShep could convince Jack that she's really into men, and MaleShep could convince Jack that she's really into girls.  Since she's pretty open about going both ways, it seems that would work equally well for both Sheps, and would be a really interesting and unique way of ending the relationship if you'd rather romance somebody else :)

#2565
FataliTensei

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Collider wrote...

DaeJi wrote...

Collider wrote...
Absolutely. I doubt anyone from the books will be in the game, but they could still do a gay soldier or something. Anything but an assassin, or someone else morally questionable.


The Illusive man was introduced in a book,

I mean as squad mates, but I see your point.


They link the books and the games sometimes, maybe they'll be more direct about it in ME3 :mellow:

#2566
JediMB

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SirGladiator wrote...

That actually would be an interesting idea, for either Shep that didn't want to romance Jack but wanted to let her down easily.  FemShep could convince Jack that she's really into men, and MaleShep could convince Jack that she's really into girls.  Since she's pretty open about going both ways, it seems that would work equally well for both Sheps, and would be a really interesting and unique way of ending the relationship if you'd rather romance somebody else :)


Gah, that just sounds manipulative*. >_>

I was just thinking that since Jack has been established as heterosexual, it would be a way for a same-gendered Shepard to help her deal with her issues. The problem with any Shepard having a close platonic relationship with a potential love interest would be that people have a habit of crushing on him/her pretty hard. (Even non-crew, like Gianna Parasini and Shiala.)

Of course it would also be kind of crappy if playing as FemShep would give you access to the full dialog for all of MaleShep's love interests, while MaleShep would only get it from one (and vice versa), so it would be preferable if the different dialog trees lead to the characters revealing different things. It's only natural that you'd tell someone you were in love with and someone you saw as a brother/sister different things, right?

I'm totally straying from the whole "same sex romances" subject here, though... but I think both the lack of same sex romances and the lack of any kind of meaningful interaction with non-romanced characters might be part of the same issue. It's frustrating that Garrus is busy with calibrations for half of the damn game!


* Renegade option?

Modifié par JediMB, 07 mars 2010 - 10:38 .


#2567
Allison W

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Arik7 wrote...

MPSai wrote...

Allison W wrote...

LiquidGrape wrote...

Just heard the abandoned voice clips where Tali expresses an interest in femshep, and vice versa.
Honestly.
The pulled that trick again?
If it was just corporate ignorance I could take it, but when Bioware actually went to the trouble of recording all the lines...
- I can't make heads or tails of it.


My best guess is that somewhere in the ME team specifically (not EA, not BioWare in general) is a suit who, after the writers wrote the content and the VAs were recording it, came in and said, "Take this out."


Casey Hudson? I mean he is executive producer and he is the one who tried to insist Fem!Shep and Liara aren't REALLY lesbians. 

Possibly.   Hudson's claim about the FemShep/Liara romance was stupid indeed, but it's just speculations at this point.


It's merely frustratingly plausible.

As for the idea that they ran out of zots, that's nearly as bad, considering space hamsters and space fish that die if you don't feed them their space fish food made it in.

#2568
midfield52

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I don't understand it because its not like a gay romance is forced on you. Its not going to hurt sales . It didn't in dragon age. If they were so worried about it hurting sales they should just release DLC for them . That way if people don't want the same sex romance they don't even have it in their game and everyone is happy. I don't understand why bioware dosen't do this. They can even make money off it if they wanted to. They haven't told us one reason why this is a bad idea for it just to be released as DLC

#2569
SimonTheFrog

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midfield52 wrote...

I don't understand it because its not like a gay romance is forced on you. Its not going to hurt sales . It didn't in dragon age. If they were so worried about it hurting sales they should just release DLC for them . That way if people don't want the same sex romance they don't even have it in their game and everyone is happy. I don't understand why bioware dosen't do this. They can even make money off it if they wanted to. They haven't told us one reason why this is a bad idea for it just to be released as DLC


I totally agree.

They could at least give us some hope or something more solid than whatever they did so far. 
But maybe they feel that even talking about that subject makes them looks bad already... dunno... :unsure:

#2570
JaylaClark

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Regarding abandoned voice clips:

I've heard someone piece together Liara's probable original ME2 storyline from the abandoned voice clips, and ...

Well, we're outside of the spoiler forums, so lemme just say I am glad they were abandoned.

Having said that, this might be an indication that Tali was intended to be an option.  Which partly tells me that BW has no problem with lesbians and bi females whatsoever, and it's conclusive proof.  I still think I'd rather males get ... hell, maybe Garrus, come to think of it, as an option ...yeah, if I had my druthers, the returning squaddies would be bi options, and/or Jack and ... oh, say, Jacob.

#2571
lexicality

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I support this thread.

I'm a straight guy who - when forced - would rather be watching a female pixelated arse run around the screen all day than a male arse.

So let me have a cute girl to play and have a girl like Tali as a lover!

#2572
didymos1120

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Sorta on-topic:

MS has changed the Live Code of Conduct, such that:

You may use the following terms to express your relationship orientation in your profile or Gamertag: Lesbian, Gay, Bi, Transgender, Straight.


C'mon Bioware: steal their thunder.  You know you want to.

Modifié par didymos1120, 08 mars 2010 - 06:57 .


#2573
Thalinor00

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-Its 2010, Gay/Straight no one cares who you screw. 

-I am a straight 31 year old male that has been playing RPG’s exclusively as a female avatar for about 10 years.

-I no longer buy RPG’s where I cannot play a female avatar; the acceptation being JRPG’s where all the characters are androgynous and the story is unchanging and pre-fab. [Side note T-Minus 20.5 hours to FF13!!!]

-With the plethora of free p0rn on the internet, no one [of any age] is actually going to consider trying to get off to a 15 second PG-13 pixilated clip from a video game. It in no way can be considered arousing by anyone of any age.

-Since “Go Get Laid” was mentioned as an argument: I have never had/currently do not have any problems getting laid. In the past I have had some crazy sexcapades [the type that put those on the show “Spartacus” to shame] and will fully admit, while they were exciting at the time they are nothing when compared to a meaningful loving relationship. I do not get off from video games; hell p0rn barely does the job anymore. You know what does it for me? The emotional connection with the person I am having sex with. Crazy; I know.

-When I play female avatars in video games I consider the character genderless. In the romance scenes I do not consider it F/F or M/M; it’s “my avatar” and whoever.  I connect better with female characters, and thus my game “romances” tend towards female characters.

It’s time we transcend gender and sexual orientation. Everyone here is Genderless and A-Sexual.  This should not be such a hot topic and an issue in a game.

#2574
Collider

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How could you say you want to transcend gender and sexual orientation yet you say you would only buy games in which you can play as female?

#2575
SirGladiator

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I think he meant transcend them as obstacles/excuses. If people want to play exclusively as male or female characters for whatever reason, thats fine, but the point he's making (which I agree with) is for someone who plays as a female character, that doesn't remotely mean you only are interested in (or even are interested in at ALL) male romancable characters. The very idea is obviously absurd, and the point he's making, I think, is that its time to move past that. I think we all thought Bioware had indeed moved past it MANY years ago, until ME2 came out, and now all we can do is wonder why they haven't.