7455 réponses à ce sujet

[Thalinor00]

SirGladiator wrote...

I think he meant transcend them as obstacles/excuses. If people want to play exclusively as male or female characters for whatever reason, thats fine, but the point he's making (which I agree with) is for someone who plays as a female character, that doesn't remotely mean you only are interested in (or even are interested in at ALL) male romancable characters. The very idea is obviously absurd, and the point he's making, I think, is that its time to move past that. I think we all thought Bioware had indeed moved past it MANY years ago, until ME2 came out, and now all we can do is wonder why they haven't.

Thank you SirGladiator, this is exactly what I meant.

I made it crystal clear that I was referring to RPG’s and my preferred play style. It did not include other genres of games. FPS’s are a great example of games I could care less about the gender of my character. I even went as far to state not all RPG’s as J-RPG’s were ok with set genders too. 

 
I find it highly ironic that Collider and I are arguing the same point and yet I get slack. Actually, I guess I do not want the same thing as him. I would like games open to all possibilities for players and not limit them in any way, where he seems to want to force a same-sex sexual orientation on people. As far as I am concerned that’s as bad as the people who say it’s inappropriate to have a same-sex option.

What very few people seem to get is it has nothing to do with a gay/lesbian option. It has everything to do with a player-character interaction option. I am a guy playing as a female avatar wanting a female romance option; that does not make me or the player-character interaction a lesbian one. Same thing would be true if you were a female playing a male avatar with a male romance option. In contrast if I was a female playing a female avatar and choose a female romance option [or vice versa] then fine, call it what you will, a same sex relationship; nothing changes.

I do not see the need to peg any character in a game with a label of a certain sexual orientation. As far as I am concerned people who are gay that want nothing more than to “represent” their sexual orientation by saying this character is a "gay only" character option happens to be as bad as straight people that fear a same sex option.  Why do people always have to bring sexual orientation into things?  The point of my post was that I wanted to eliminate the label of gay/straight all together rather give the player the choice on how to play their character. There is no need to label anything. 

The whole "pride" movement died when people ceased to care about someone’s sexual orientation. It’s like that figure skater that kept bringing up he was gay… “Look at me I am gay!” Again, good for you, its 2010 NO ONE CARES whether you are straight gay or otherwise. Get over yourself.

That’s what I meant by transcending gender. I do not think I could spell it out any clearer for you Collider. 

NO LABELS NO LIMITS.



@ those that said Kelly is Fanservice... Don't even start.  I worked my ass off with Kelly two playthroughs and yet still did not get the email.  I have read the devs posts on her and did everything correct but no kelly dance option.  It’s an easter egg they put into the game.  Fanservice is something that is easily obtainable by everyone and right there in your face.  Kelly is no more fanservice then the "strippers" at the in game clubs.

Modifié par Thalinor00, 08 mars 2010 - 01:22 .

[SimonTheFrog]

Thalinor00 wrote...

SirGladiator wrote...

I think he meant transcend them as obstacles/excuses. If people want to play exclusively as male or female characters for whatever reason, thats fine, but the point he's making (which I agree with) is for someone who plays as a female character, that doesn't remotely mean you only are interested in (or even are interested in at ALL) male romancable characters. The very idea is obviously absurd, and the point he's making, I think, is that its time to move past that. I think we all thought Bioware had indeed moved past it MANY years ago, until ME2 came out, and now all we can do is wonder why they haven't.

Thank you SirGladiator, this is exactly what I meant.

I made it crystal clear that I was referring to RPG’s and my preferred play style. It did not include other genres of games. FPS’s are a great example of games I could care less about the gender of my character. I even went as far to state not all RPG’s as J-RPG’s were ok with set genders too. 

 
I find it highly ironic that Collider and I are arguing the same point and yet I get slack. Actually, I guess I do not want the same thing as him. I would like games open to all possibilities for players and not limit them in any way, where he seems to want to force a same-sex sexual orientation on people. As far as I am concerned that’s as bad as the people who say it’s inappropriate to have a same-sex option.

What very few people seem to get is it has nothing to do with a gay/lesbian option. It has everything to do with a player-character interaction option. I am a guy playing as a female avatar wanting a female romance option; that does not make me or the player-character interaction a lesbian one. Same thing would be true if you were a female playing a male avatar with a male romance option. In contrast if I was a female playing a female avatar and choose a female romance option [or vice versa] then fine, call it what you will, a same sex relationship; nothing changes.

I do not see the need to peg any character in a game with a label of a certain sexual orientation. As far as I am concerned people who are gay that want nothing more than to “represent” their sexual orientation by saying this character is a "gay only" character option happens to be as bad as straight people that fear a same sex option.  Why do people always have to bring sexual orientation into things?  The point of my post was that I wanted to eliminate the label of gay/straight all together rather give the player the choice on how to play their character. There is no need to label anything. 

The whole "pride" movement died when people ceased to care about someone’s sexual orientation. It’s like that figure skater that kept bringing up he was gay… “Look at me I am gay!” Again, good for you, its 2010 NO ONE CARES whether you are straight gay or otherwise. Get over yourself.

That’s what I meant by transcending gender. I do not think I could spell it out any clearer for you Collider. 

NO LABELS NO LIMITS.



@ those that said Kelly is Fanservice... Don't even start.  I worked my ass off with Kelly two playthroughs and yet still did not get the email.  I have read the devs posts on her and did everything correct but no kelly dance option.  It’s an easter egg they put into the game.  Fanservice is something that is easily obtainable by everyone and right there in your face.  Kelly is no more fanservice then the "strippers" at the in game clubs.

Good to read this post. I feel pretty much the same way.

I started to come to this forum more often after finishing my first playthrough of ME2. (By this time i was confused that the romance with Tali didn't work and i wanted to check what i did wrong. Well, i had picked the wrong gender). So, anyways, it was THEN that i started to realize that people classify the romances as gay, the characters as bi etc. I mean, sure... it's not wrong per se... it just never occured to me to think in this patterns that much. It's as Thalinor00 wrote: you pick an avatar that you like and you pick an NPC to interact with that you like. That's just it... 
The whole genre is about "playing". Doing interesting stuff, assuming roles, experience nice stories... etc etc. 

I sometimes wish back the olden days of Vampires 2 when your choice of avatar only mattered as far as class was concerned ("clan" in this example). Everybody in the game reacted the same whether you're a girl or boy. And there was a lot of seduction to do. Well, i actually think BioWare deserves kudos for going the extra mile and make it matter what gender you picked. But it should haven broaden the experience and not limit it, like they did. 
Why would you build a roleplay game in the first place if you don't want your audience to enjoy playing roles. 


Apart from the rpg and digital entertainment, i mean in RL, i don't agree that no one cares about your sexual orientation. You can find yourself a peer group that doesn't care, sure. But there are a lot of unpleasant experiences just waiting to happen everytime you meet new people. It's doable, hell yeah, but you can't say that it doesn't matter :/ (We're on a good road, though)

Kelly is maybe buggy. She's quite easy to have but i have saves where she didn't send that email for no reason. In other playthroughs it was no hazzle at all. Dunno...

Modifié par SimonTheFrog, 08 mars 2010 - 02:16 .

[The Uncanny]

JediMB wrote...

I'm totally straying from the whole "same sex romances" subject here, though... but I think both the lack of same sex romances and the lack of any kind of meaningful interaction with non-romanced characters might be part of the same issue. It's frustrating that Garrus is busy with calibrations for half of the damn game!

No, I think you’re right - the two issues are inextricably linked. This would be less of an issue for me if I had the option to simply say to Jack “I’m interested” so that she could reply “I’m not.” It wouldn’t be satisfying, but at least I’d be rping my Shepard the way I want to. As it stands, for a femshep who simply wants to be friends with her to suddenly be told out of nowhere that Jack doesn’t want to be in the ‘girl’s club’ must seem really odd.

I don’t think a platonic relationship would work as a substitute for an LI (there is really only the one way Jack can help me deal with my issues… ) but then I think that is the wrong way round anyway. If all relationships were begun on a platonic level then that should hopefully provide time for substantial hints to be dropped if the player was barking up the wrong tree.

Actually an emphasis on more platonic relationships could be intriguing when pursuing LIs. If back-pedalling from a expressing a romantic interest back to a platonic friendship wouldn’t work (because of all the new awkward), then the PC may have to time making a move on someone carefully or be shut out from the character (and potentially their loyalty?)

[Wittand25]

In Vampire:Bloodlines the sex of your avatar did matter. Several npcs showed different reaction depending on the sex of the pc if you tried to seduce them.

But I am surprised that no one from Bioware considerd that in a game with a third-person-view many players choose avatars that they find atractive and also want to have an atractive LI, which ofcourse means many straight men and gay women want a female LI for their female toon and many straight women and gay men want a m/m-pairing in the game.

Modifié par Wittand25, 08 mars 2010 - 04:13 .

[Ryzaki]

Collider wrote...

Madison has no personality.

Offtopic: But yeah you have yet to explain this.

On topic: MShep x Kaidan would be love and I would love the ME dev team forever if they placed it in ME3 or as ME2 xpac or as DLC.

Kaidan.

Or a new guy that's attractive and not morally bankrupt. Just a nice guy.

Or Joker. :innocent:

Though Joker might be asking a wee bit too much.

He'd be awesome too. <3

[Naughty Bear]

Normally i would not care about topics like this as i dont see how i can benefit or gain anything from it. I am perfectly fine with Miranda or Tali, even more happy with my les Shep and Kelly.



But i guess maybe gays should get a man on man romance as Fem's got Kelly right? I disaprove homosexual relationship's but i have a reason for it. I would not mind it BUT if that male starts hitting on me then i would be abit creeped out. Zevran was a real smack to the face when he called me 'stuff'.



Oh dont start the bull**** about me being insecure about my sexuality if i disagree with homosexual relationship. I have seen people that will call people insecure if they say anything that is agaisnt homosexual relations or disaprove of men kissing each other. I am perfectly sure i am straight and not insecure.



But yeah i dont mind if its in the game as long i am not the one getting chatted up. Its the players choice, they should be the ones chatting up whoever they want a relationship of their choice.

[Ninja Mage]

Zevran wasn't morally bankrupt, you could say the same thing about Lelianna...she was a sweet psychopath..

[Ryzaki]

Ninja Mage wrote...

Zevran wasn't morally bankrupt, you could say the same thing about Lelianna...she was a sweet psychopath..

Uh no. The only thing Zev found wrong about being an assassin was that he wasn't calling the shots. >_>

I tried to like the guy. Did his romance to completion and everything but no. He leaves a really nasty taste in my mouth. Leliana may be a pscyhopath but she's one that geniunely tries to avoid hurting people that she doesn't have to. Zev is just...ugh. *gags* He's loyal and faithful to the end but- *gags* None of my characters (NONE) would have been in character romancing him. (Except for my stupid good sword and shield human noble with more brawn than brains and nice enough to give puppies cavities.) Any other character doesn't want to touch him with a ten foot pole. (Well except for the city elves and dalish but I loathe those origins. The mage ends up more attracted to Alistair (regardless of gender) and either romances him or pines after him. Zev? They want to run away from him on sight. (Some of them are too nice to skewer him). Nearly all my PCs kill him on sight now and those my male pcs must remain single. Oh well at least they have the choice not to be single thank you DA team. <3


On Topic: I wonder how the Thane romance would have went if he had been the M/M option? Would MShep have gotten a male version of Siha or something? 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 08 mars 2010 - 10:31 .

[comicfan22]

Naughty Bear wrote...

Normally i would not care about topics like this as i dont see how i can benefit or gain anything from it. I am perfectly fine with Miranda or Tali, even more happy with my les Shep and Kelly.

But i guess maybe gays should get a man on man romance as Fem's got Kelly right? I disaprove homosexual relationship's but i have a reason for it. I would not mind it BUT if that male starts hitting on me then i would be abit creeped out. Zevran was a real smack to the face when he called me 'stuff'.

But yeah i dont mind if its in the game as long i am not the one getting chatted up. Its the players choice, they should be the ones chatting up whoever they want a relationship of their choice.

I can't speak for everyone here, but thank you for your support. I know, I myself am backing the different colored romantic text for ALL relationships, not just s/s. I also agree that any romance m/m. f/f or m/f should be initiated by Commander Shep, not by anyone else.

That being said, I would not be against being hit upon if it was well written  AND I could turn them down gently and still have a platonic relationship with them.<3

[Lightice_av]

Uh no. The only thing Zev found wrong about being an assassin was that he wasn't calling the shots. >_>

Well, remember that the poor guy had been raised for the role for all his life. And Leliana wasn't too much different before she got wrong end of the stick and turned to religion.
That being said, I found it vaguely amusing that both bi-options in Dragon Age were from the Rogue class and obviously foreign.

Still, they exist, and are for the most part quite well written. I still have hard time understanding why ME2 doesn't live up to the standard the company set up.
I did get another flash of an unpleasant potential reason, though: what if Vanderloo got pissy over his face being used in homosexual situations? That would be a troublesome enough reason to keep quiet about, though it wouldn't explain why they still recorded and included some male same-sex lines in the disks of both games...

[Ryzaki]

Lightice_av wrote...

Uh no. The only thing Zev found wrong about being an assassin was that he wasn't calling the shots. >_>

Well, remember that the poor guy had been raised for the role for all his life. And Leliana wasn't too much different before she got wrong end of the stick and turned to religion.
That being said, I found it vaguely amusing that both bi-options in Dragon Age were from the Rogue class and obviously foreign.

Still, they exist, and are for the most part quite well written. I still have hard time understanding why ME2 doesn't live up to the standard the company set up.
I did get another flash of an unpleasant potential reason, though: what if Vanderloo got pissy over his face being used in homosexual situations? That would be a troublesome enough reason to keep quiet about, though it wouldn't explain why they still recorded and included some male same-sex lines in the disks of both games...

I would wonder why they didn't use another model. There are male models that would be okay with that kind of thing if that was the case probably some even better looking than Vanderloo to be honest.

...Though that would be a perfectly valid excuse and very understandable. If that's the case they should just make it impossible for a s/s male romance if you're using default Sheploo. That would be possible no? 

And you're right. It wouldn't explain why the went ahead and recorded it if Vanderloo didn't want his face used for that from the beginning.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 08 mars 2010 - 11:35 .

[Collider]

Thalinor00 wrote...
I would like games open to all possibilities for players and not limit them in any way, where he seems to want to force a same-sex sexual orientation on people.

What the hell does that mean? I've never said anything like that. Clarify.

As far as I am concerned that’s as bad as the people who say it’s inappropriate to have a same-sex option.

If you think that my views are the equivalent of saying that it would inappropriate to have same sex options, then you clearly don't know what my position actually is, or you're...confused.

I do not see the need to peg any character in a game with a label of a certain sexual orientation.

But there literally is no need, what is characteristic of so many things. There is also no need for us to be having this discussion in the first place, but we are having it anyway.

It’s like that figure skater that kept bringing up he was gay… “Look at me I am gay!” Again, good for you, its 2010 NO ONE CARES whether you are straight gay or otherwise. Get over yourself.

Wow, couldn't agree more. I hate the concept of having pride for your sexuality. No one earns their sexual orientation, having pride for things that one does not earn only fuels hate and discrimination.

[Collider]

Ryzaki wrote...

Collider wrote...

Madison has no personality.

Offtopic: But yeah you have yet to explain this.

The fact that I played Heavy Rain and Madison basically amounted to the typical female character that serves as the romantic interest for the male lead character and needlessly shows her bewbz.

[Collider]

Ninja Mage wrote...

Zevran wasn't morally bankrupt,

In my opinion, yes he was. He was an assassin, and if you don't get enough approval from him (doesn't matter whether you lose approval from him), he betrays you. What an ungrateful bastard!

you could say the same thing about Lelianna...she was a sweet psychopath..

Except Leliana has already given up the assassin business and wants to help the sick and needy in the chantry. Granted, there is more to her being a sister than just selflessness, but there you go.

[Collider]

Ryzaki wrote...
On Topic: I wonder how the Thane romance would have went if he had been the M/M option? Would MShep have gotten a male version of Siha or something? 

Oh great, another morally questionableassassin for male PC's?

[Collider]

Lightice_av wrote...
Still, they exist, and are for the most part quite well written. I still have hard time understanding why ME2 doesn't live up to the standard the company set up.

There is no standard. The game is their own creation, you are not guranteed romances when you buy the game, Bioware is not it's own government with it's own constitution guranteeing M/M or F/F or M/F romances.

I did get another flash of an unpleasant potential reason, though: what if Vanderloo got pissy over his face being used in homosexual situations? That would be a troublesome enough reason to keep quiet about, though it wouldn't explain why they still recorded and included some male same-sex lines in the disks of both games...

If Vanderloo cared, why wouldn't he have protested to Bioware before Mass Effect 2? M/M lines were recorded for both Kaidan and Thane. They didn't finish either. I suspect they recorded them just to keep their options open, and then decided that these characters were not bisexual. That's what I suspect, given what we know. You also have to factor in that both have gender specific and gender leaning dialogue. Thane talking about his wife and calling female shepard Siha, which is a goddess IIRC. Kaidan talking about reading novels about men exploring space and falling in love with beautiful women. Stuff like that.

[Collider]

Shavon wrote...
Aw, that would have been adorable!

Not saying you do in particular, but this reminds me of something. I don't see why people seem to think that M/M or F/F is "cuter" or more "adorable," or "purer" that M/F relationships. What gives? Just because it pertains to one's fantasies? There is nothing inherently purer about any of these relationships. Of course, that's my opinion, but I genuinely and irrationally dislike straight people idolizing homosexual relationships of the opposite sex.

[Lightice_av]

Ryzaki wrote...

And you're right. It wouldn't explain why the went ahead and recorded it if Vanderloo didn't want his face used for that from the beginning.

Well, in my mind the scenario went so that Vanderloo just knew he was signing for a dashing action hero role, but when he heard that it would be possible for his character to be gay, he dug up some obscure clause from the contract saying that Bioware can't do that, and they had to scrap the path that had already been more or less finished for ME1. But it wouldn't explain why bits of male same-sex dialogue do exist in ME2, which is where the theory either breaks down, or at least weakens considerably.
From everything we know it does seem that there is a fair bit of creative armwrestling going on behind the scenes over this issue, so one more bit of idle speculation probably doesn't hurt. It doesn't stop me from being annoyed that I can't even begin to dig up info on what actually happened.

Oh great, another morally questionableassassin for male PC's?

Well, at least he's one of the nicest people in your squad.

There is
no standard. The game is their own creation, you are not guranteed
romances when you buy the game, Bioware is not it's own government with
it's own constitution guranteeing M/M or F/F or M/F romances.

Well, when a company makes a good game, people will expect that everything that follows will be at least as good. When the company decides to carter to unconventional options in a game that gives you a highly customizable character, then it would make sense for them to be consistent in their other works, unless something significant prevents them from doing it; something that may well have, and I would like to know what.

Modifié par Lightice_av, 08 mars 2010 - 11:59 .

[Collider]

[quote]Lightice_av wrote...
Oh great, another morally questionableassassin for male PC's?
[/quote]
Well, at least he's one of the nicest people in your squad.
[/quote]
That depends. Would you consider assassination to be characteristic of a nice person?

[Ryzaki]

Collider wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
On Topic: I wonder how the Thane romance would have went if he had been the M/M option? Would MShep have gotten a male version of Siha or something? 

Oh great, another morally questionableassassin for male PC's?

You know that probably would have been my first reaction.

But at least he doesn't spend all the time hitting on everyone else in your crew...with you standing right beside him.

Granted most of them would probably skewered him if he did so but still. <_<

He doesn't ooze sleeze either and that would have been a plus.

Though the dead wife and rebellious kid syndrome (Carth Syndrome in other words) would have gotten annoying fast.

Collider wrote...

Shavon wrote...
Aw, that would have been adorable!

Not
saying you do in particular, but this reminds me of something. I don't
see why people seem to think that M/M or F/F is "cuter" or more
"adorable," or "purer" that M/F relationships. What gives? Just because
it pertains to one's fantasies? There is nothing inherently purer about
any of these relationships. Of course, that's my opinion, but I
genuinely and irrationally dislike straight people idolizing homosexual
relationships of the opposite sex.

Or you know she
could have found it sweet when he did it to FemShep and would have liked
it with MShep too. There's alwasy that you realize. [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/uncertain.png[/smilie]

Collider wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Collider wrote...

Madison has no personality.

Offtopic: But yeah you have yet to explain this. [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/pinched.png[/smilie]

The
fact that I played Heavy Rain and Madison basically amounted to the
typical female character that serves as the romantic interest for the
male lead character and needlessly shows her bewbz.

...right. Did you get the heroine ending? 

...You know what. Forget it. Madison is awesome so [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/tongue.png[/smilie].

Modifié par Ryzaki, 09 mars 2010 - 12:09 .

[Collider]

If there is going to M/M in ME3, just wish they'd go with someone morally upright rather than some assassin. It may do good for the image of homosexuals and bisexuals if they are portrayed as the typical person or the typical soldier/hero versus social deviants and flamboyants.

[Collider]

Ryzaki wrote...
...right. Did you get the heroine ending?

Yes. I know you like Madison, but don't you think it would have better if they weren't so many opportunities to show her breasts, not to mention the ridiculousness of her sleeping (and showing skin, not surprisingly) with Ethan after knowing each other for one day and Ethan racing against time to look for his son?

[Collider]

Lightice_av wrote...
Well, when a company makes a good game, people will expect that everything that follows will be at least as good.

Here's the problem. Not having romances in general does not mean a game is not good or as good. The romances in Mass Effect are great and anything, but I wouldn't play the game if the gameplay and story sucked.

When the company decides to carter to unconventional options in a game that gives you a highly customizable character, then it would make sense for them to be consistent in their other works,

It would make sense? How would it make sense? Sense for what? Sense how? There is no logic involved here.

First of all, it's remarkable that Bioware games even have M/M and F/F options to begin with.

unless something significant prevents them from doing it; something that may well have, and I would like to know what.

Have you considered that the writers should decided that none of these characters except for Samara and Kelly were bisexual? If you wrote a novel with many characters, could you choose any and say that changing their sexuality to heterosexual, bisexual, homosexual, or asexual would be in tune with how you have already written and envisioned them?