7455 réponses à ce sujet

[Ryzaki]

Collider wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
...right. Did you get the heroine ending?

Yes. I know you like Madison, but don't you think it would have better if they weren't so many opportunities to show her breasts, not to mention the ridiculousness of her sleeping (and showing skin, not surprisingly) with Ethan after knowing each other for one day and Ethan racing against time to look for his son?

True but to say she's completely fanservice is stretching it don't you think? 

[Lightice_av]

First of all, it's remarkable that Bioware games even have M/M and F/F options to begin with.

Exactly. They chose to carter to an option that is normally ignored. In doing so they create certain expectations, like in making a well-written RPG they create the expectation that their future games will have a good writing, as well - by no means a given with video games, even today.

Have you considered that the writers should decided that none of these characters except for Samara and Kelly were bisexual? If you wrote a novel with many characters, could you choose any and say that changing their sexuality to heterosexual, bisexual, homosexual, or asexual would be in tune with how you have already written and envisioned them?

Not that much, actually, especially when their main raison d'etre is to serve as love interests to a hero whose gender is uncertain. As long as the story does not revolve around their sexuality somehow their actual orientation is not all that significant.

Modifié par Lightice_av, 09 mars 2010 - 12:25 .

[Collider]

Lightice_av wrote...

First of all, it's remarkable that Bioware games even have M/M and F/F options to begin with.

Exactly. They chose to carter to an option that is normally ignored. In doing so they create certain expectations, like in making a well-written RPG they create the expectation that their future games will have a good writing, as well - by no means a given with video games, even today.

Expectations =/= standards. That's what I'm getting at. Bioware has not pledged to it's audience that it will invariably provide homosexual content to them, or heterosexual content whatsoever for that matter.

[Collider]

Ryzaki wrote...
True but to say she's completely fanservice is stretching it don't you think?

It would be stretching it. But think about how many straight females would genuinely want to see all that skin. Not really any. Madison is put into so many sexual situations. First you meet here, she can take a shower and show breasts. During that same dream she is assaulted by masked men who appear to want to rape her. Then she can sleep with Ethan after knowing him for less than one total day, showing her breasts. Then she's tied up by the doctor. Then she gets "sexy" for the night club owner and almost gets raped again. In the process, she again has the chance to show her breasts. Somehow, I think there could have been a smarter and more tasteful way for Madison to have been integrated into the story.

[Nomen Mendax]

Collider wrote...


Have you considered that the
writers should decided that none of these characters except for Samara
and Kelly were bisexual? If you wrote a novel with many characters,
could you choose any and say that changing their sexuality to
heterosexual, bisexual, homosexual, or asexual would be in tune with
how you have already written and envisioned them?

I've seen this argument a lot (and not just for ME) but it ignores the most important point.  It's not a novel it's a RPG.  I realise you know this but I think its a lot more important than people seem to think.  While a good RPG has a consistent game-world and well written characters the world, and the NPCs are there to support the PCs story. 

I honestly think that writing characters (or events) in the same way you would write them for a novel would make for a bad RPG.  In fact, just consider doing this for events.  How would you feel if nothing that your Shepard did made any difference to the story, because the writer had just one story they wanted to tell?

<obsessively edited to correct minor spelling error>

Modifié par Nomen Mendax, 09 mars 2010 - 01:13 .

[Collider]

Nomen Mendax wrote...
I've seen this argument a lot (and not just for ME) but it ignores the most important point.  It's not a novel it's a RPG.  I realise you know this but I think its a lot more important than people seem to think.  While a good RPG has a consistent game-world and well written characters the world, and the NPCs are their to support the PCs story. 

I honestly think that writing characters (or events) in the same way you would write them for a novel would make for a bad RPG.  In fact, just consider doing this for events.  How would you feel if nothing that your Shepard did made any difference to the story, because the writer had just one story they wanted to tell?

I'm not saying that the developers should write the game like a novel. I used the novel example because it's much more likely than to be a writer for a video game. But what I am talking about is writer integrity and honor. I can recall the instances in which David Gaider, the lead writer for Dragon Age, defended Alistair from critics in addition to talking about Alistair with Alistair fans. You may be able to see that the writers have an attachment to these characters, and know them best. So if someone suggested that Alistair could go and burn down a village with innocent people in it out of malice, I don't think Gaider would like that idea, as it goes against his writing and impression of the character. I'm not suggesting that fan feedback has no affect on how characters are written, but there are certain things that writers may not feel are right for particular characters.

[SorenTrigg]

People, please stop bringing up and talking about Heavy Rain. Keep it to Mass Effect.



Especially because people keep spoiling things.

[Ryzaki]

Collider wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
True but to say she's completely fanservice is stretching it don't you think?

It would be stretching it. But think about how many straight females would genuinely want to see all that skin. Not really any. Madison is put into so many sexual situations. First you meet here, she can take a shower and show breasts. During that same dream she is assaulted by masked men who appear to want to rape her. Then she can sleep with Ethan after knowing him for less than one total day, showing her breasts. Then she's tied up by the doctor. Then she gets "sexy" for the night club owner and almost gets raped again. In the process, she again has the chance to show her breasts. Somehow, I think there could have been a smarter and more tasteful way for Madison to have been integrated into the story.

True. But still Ethan also got a naked scene showing his cute little butt in the opening of the game so I can forgive most of that. Ah. Ethan's adorable cute butt. <3

[Nomen Mendax]

Collider wrote...

I'm not saying that the developers should write the game like a novel. I used the novel example because it's much more likely than to be a writer for a video game. But what I am talking about is writer integrity and honor. I can recall the instances in which David Gaider, the lead writer for Dragon Age, defended Alistair from critics in addition to talking about Alistair with Alistair fans. You may be able to see that the writers have an attachment to these characters, and know them best. So if someone suggested that Alistair could go and burn down a village with innocent people in it out of malice, I don't think Gaider would like that idea, as it goes against his writing and impression of the character. I'm not suggesting that fan feedback has no affect on how characters are written, but there are certain things that writers may not feel are right for particular characters.

Sure, but on the other hand the writers need to understand that their characters need to respond to the PC's behaviour, and to some extent to what the player is trying to get out of the game.  I agree that the NPCs can't be completely different for two playthroughs of the game, but they could be somewhat different.  In KOTOR, in JE, and in DA the behaviour of the PC affects the character of some of the NPCs (trying to keep it spoiler free here). 

So the question is would allowing an NPC to have different sexual orientations (which I don't think makes them bisexual by the way) in different playthroughs of the game be too much of a change?  Obviously opinions differ on this, but personally I'd say no.  Partly because ME is basically an action SF story with a romance subplot I don't really see any of the characters having strong identities when it comes to their orientation, but again that's just my opinion.

Modifié par Nomen Mendax, 09 mars 2010 - 12:57 .

[Ryzaki]

Nomen Mendax wrote...

Collider wrote...


Have you considered that the
writers should decided that none of these characters except for Samara
and Kelly were bisexual? If you wrote a novel with many characters,
could you choose any and say that changing their sexuality to
heterosexual, bisexual, homosexual, or asexual would be in tune with
how you have already written and envisioned them?

I've seen this argument a lot (and not just for ME) but it ignores the most important point.  It's not a novel it's a RPG.  I realise you know this but I think its a lot more important than people seem to think.  While a good RPG has a consistent game-world and well written characters the world, and the NPCs are their to support the PCs story. 

I honestly think that writing characters (or events) in the same way you would write them for a novel would make for a bad RPG.  In fact, just consider doing this for events.  How would you feel if nothing that your Shepard did made any difference to the story, because the writer had just one story they wanted to tell?

Not to mention that in all of BioWare's games the PC is the biggest Mary Sue/Gary Stu to walk on the history of the planet.

And EVERYONE regardless of personal preference can fall in love with a Sue/Stu so to me this whole argument is redundant.

But X character isn't gay/bi!

Its Commander Shepard! They don't have to be gay or bi!

Edit: Not only is Shep a Sue. Shep's a mega Kill it with fire! Sue.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 09 mars 2010 - 01:27 .

[SimonTheFrog]

Ryzaki wrote...

Nomen Mendax wrote...

Collider wrote...


Have you considered that the
writers should decided that none of these characters except for Samara
and Kelly were bisexual? If you wrote a novel with many characters,
could you choose any and say that changing their sexuality to
heterosexual, bisexual, homosexual, or asexual would be in tune with
how you have already written and envisioned them?

I've seen this argument a lot (and not just for ME) but it ignores the most important point.  It's not a novel it's a RPG.  I realise you know this but I think its a lot more important than people seem to think.  While a good RPG has a consistent game-world and well written characters the world, and the NPCs are their to support the PCs story. 

I honestly think that writing characters (or events) in the same way you would write them for a novel would make for a bad RPG.  In fact, just consider doing this for events.  How would you feel if nothing that your Shepard did made any difference to the story, because the writer had just one story they wanted to tell?

Not to mention that in all of BioWare's games the PC is the biggest Mary Sue/Gary Stu to walk on the history of the planet.

And EVERYONE regardless of personal preference can fall in love with a Sue/Stu so to me this whole argument is redundant.

But X character isn't gay/bi!

Its Commander Shepard! They don't have to be gay or bi!

This 

[Arik7]

Collider wrote...

Nomen Mendax wrote...
I've seen this argument a lot (and not just for ME) but it ignores the most important point.  It's not a novel it's a RPG.  I realise you know this but I think its a lot more important than people seem to think.  While a good RPG has a consistent game-world and well written characters the world, and the NPCs are their to support the PCs story. 

I honestly think that writing characters (or events) in the same way you would write them for a novel would make for a bad RPG.  In fact, just consider doing this for events.  How would you feel if nothing that your Shepard did made any difference to the story, because the writer had just one story they wanted to tell?

I'm not saying that the developers should write the game like a novel. I used the novel example because it's much more likely than to be a writer for a video game. But what I am talking about is writer integrity and honor. I can recall the instances in which David Gaider, the lead writer for Dragon Age, defended Alistair from critics in addition to talking about Alistair with Alistair fans. You may be able to see that the writers have an attachment to these characters, and know them best. So if someone suggested that Alistair could go and burn down a village with innocent people in it out of malice, I don't think Gaider would like that idea, as it goes against his writing and impression of the character. I'm not suggesting that fan feedback has no affect on how characters are written, but there are certain things that writers may not feel are right for particular characters.

Characters are created and developed with fans in mind.  This is why Tali suddenly developed an attraction toward Shepard.    We already know that Thane was created specifically as an alien interest for females.  And don't even get me started on the Asari, an entire race of lip stick lesbians/bisexuals apparently created  to please horny heterosexual males.   (No offense to all the Asari fans out there.  They are kind of cool despite the reason for their existence in the ME games.)

Being homosexual would not fundamentally change a character.  You should not be comparing sexual orientation with a moral choice like "burning down a village".    Gay people come from all walks of life.  Writers don't  have to rationalize someone's sexuality, as was done with Zevran in DAO.   Just write any character, who happens to be gay/bisexual.  There's absolutely nothing about Kaidan, Thane, Ashley or Tali that would preclude them from being bisexual.

Modifié par Arik7, 09 mars 2010 - 02:44 .

[DaeJi]

Arik7 wrote...
  Writers don't  have to rationalize someone's sexuality, as was done with Zevran in DAO.   Just write any character, who happens to be gay/bisexual.  There's absolutely nothing about Kaidan, Thane, Ashley or Tali that would preclude them from being bisexual.

I think Zevran's story was more to explain why he throws himself at anything warm. But I do agree with you, an alter in sexuality is, realistically, the same as them having a new outfit. Things are a huge deals in real life, are not huge deals in video games with characters that have limited and set responces to everything.

[LoveAsThouWilt]

Nomen Mendax wrote...

I've seen this argument a lot (and not just for ME) but it ignores the most important point.  It's not a novel it's a RPG. 
I realise you know this but I think its a lot more important than
people seem to think.  While a good RPG has a consistent game-world and
well written characters the world, and the NPCs are their to support
the PCs story. 

I honestly think that writing characters (or
events) in the same way you would write them for a novel would make for
a bad RPG.  In fact, just consider doing this for events.  How would
you feel if nothing that your Shepard did made any difference to the
story, because the writer had just one story they wanted to tell?

Bad and actually this is essentially what some of us are left with in a manner. Bioware has decided that they  want us to have, and ONLY have the Heterosexual Male Commander Shepard and/or Lesbian/Bi/Straight Female Commander Shepard.

The issue is clearly spelled out in what the female Commander can do, and what the male cannot.

[Inquisitor Recon]

This topic needs to be bludgeoned to death and tossed out the airlock, and the real Commander Shepard can bludgeon pretty hard...



Bioware has no obligation to retcon any character into being gay or bisexual and such a dicesion would simply cheapen these characters. Similarly Commander Shepard himself shouldn't be retconned into a person he wasn't in ME1 or ME2. I also do not want to have to deal with space-Zevran or the gay version of Thane in ME3.



And about Asari being designed to be sexy for the male population, welcome to the real world. Play to your demographics, not small outspoken groups who will still buy the game anyway despite pledges not to.

[Arik7]

ReconTeam wrote...

This topic needs to be bludgeoned to death and tossed out the airlock, and the real Commander Shepard can bludgeon pretty hard...

Bioware has no obligation to retcon any character into being gay or bisexual and such a dicesion would simply cheapen these characters.

It would not be retconning but rather character developement.  People don't always admit their attration to each other.  See Tali and Garrus who showed no signs of attraction to Shepard in ME1.  Did the ME2 romances cheapen those characters?  I think not.

Similarly Commander Shepard himself shouldn't be retconned into a person he wasn't in ME1 or ME2.

Commander Shepard would not be retconned in your game.   Some of us already played Shepard as a single gay man, others could play him as a bisexual....No retconning at all for those players.

I also do not want to have to deal with space-Zevran or the gay version of Thane in ME3.

  Nobody wants to see a walking stereotype.  A gay version of Thane doesn't have to be any different from the ME2 version....

And about Asari being designed to be sexy for the male population, welcome to the real world. Play to your demographics, not small outspoken groups who will still buy the game anyway despite pledges not to.

Some of us really wanted the option, and others believe it should be there because it's the right thing to do.....The opponents are in the minority here.

[SimonTheFrog]

ReconTeam wrote...

This topic needs to be bludgeoned to death and tossed out the airlock, and the real Commander Shepard can bludgeon pretty hard...

Bioware has no obligation to retcon any character into being gay or bisexual and such a dicesion would simply cheapen these characters. Similarly Commander Shepard himself shouldn't be retconned into a person he wasn't in ME1 or ME2. I also do not want to have to deal with space-Zevran or the gay version of Thane in ME3.

And about Asari being designed to be sexy for the male population, welcome to the real world. Play to your demographics, not small outspoken groups who will still buy the game anyway despite pledges not to.

I can tell that you feel strongly about this issue.

So do we.

Again: it's about choice. When you play your heterosexual male Sheploo, nothing in your game changes. It's YOUR game and you pick the choices!! Don't like gay Shepard? Fine, don't play it.

About retconning, please don't put it like BioWare didn't retcon the hell out of this game already. We are friggin' forced to team up with Cerberus... this is so much bigger retcon from ME1 to ME2 than any romance could ever be. The whole retcon-phobia is utter nonsense. 

Also, discovering the love for someone can change your whole life at any time :innocent:

And please don't stomp in this thread, spread some hate about how it shouldn't exist. It exists because it expresses the feelings of costumers just like yourself.

See you around.

[DaeJi]

ReconTeam wrote...
Similarly Commander Shepard himself shouldn't be retconned into a person he wasn't in ME1 or ME2.

If Commander Shepard is so set that giving him more options is bad thing then BioWare have bigger problems to worry about that our issue. Shepard is what the player wants him to be; that's why there is more than one dialog option during conversations. That's why there is player choosen dialog period. Shepard is not a character that BioWare has to worry about changing, since he or she isn't even a real character until a player plays him or her.

[Inquisitor Recon]

Arik7 wrote...
The opponents are in the minority here.

I beg to differ. Looking it it objectively, I believe most players would agree it is a waste of valuable time, resources, cheapening the experience, and angering some players. Forums don't represent the community of any game as a whole in my opinion.

Naturally most who play the game probably don't go to these forums, and most who do probably don't give this topic any notice. They probably trust Bioware not to waste effort on such a thing. And yes some people will get pissed if you get your way. I was pissed when that damn woman at the Pearl in Denerim causally asked my Grey Warden if he wanted men, I wish I could have slapped her. What good reason is there to disgust most players in such a manner for the sake of politically correct gibberish?

[Ryzaki]

ReconTeam wrote...

Arik7 wrote...
The opponents are in the minority here.

I beg to differ. Looking it it objectively, I believe most players would agree it is a waste of valuable time, resources, cheapening the experience, and angering some players. Forums don't represent the community of any game as a whole in my opinion.

Naturally most who play the game probably don't go to these forums, and most who do probably don't give this topic any notice. They probably trust Bioware not to waste effort on such a thing. And yes some people will get pissed if you get your way. I was pissed when that damn woman at the Pearl in Denerim causally asked my Grey Warden if he wanted men, I wish I could have slapped her. What good reason is there to disgust most players in such a manner for the sake of politically correct gibberish?

Really? 

I mean....really? 

I'm faced with the objectification of females in video games every day and find it irritating but I never fly in a rage about it. Edit: Well most of the time. When its forced in my face every 3 minutes of gameplay is where I draw the line.

And heck that's usually far more in my face than a gay option was in DA.

Uh. I hate when guys complain "Oh noes! I feel uncomfortables! I don't want to see this kind of thing!"

Welcome to the damn club. <_< Do what the rest of us do and suck it the hell up. "Oh noes! Someone else has a choice that I don't personally like! Instead of ignoring it and moving on I'm going to throw a hissy fit even though I'm perfectly capable of ignoring it!"

Honestly the Pearl isn't even forced in your face. You have to go there of your own free will. Me thinks you don't really have any reasons to complain. And no one forces you to sleep with the men just choose the woman and move along.

Edit: You know what go ahead and throw your hissy fit. It looks even sillier when you can ignore the content in game.

Honestly this: "Oh noes! I'm forced to acknowledge a sexuality that doesn't fit into my heteronormal view!" is getting really, really old. <_<

Modifié par Ryzaki, 09 mars 2010 - 03:40 .

[Inquisitor Recon]

SimonTheFrog wrote...
And please don't stomp in this thread, spread some hate about how it shouldn't exist. It exists because it expresses the feelings of costumers just like yourself.

Yes I know I am feeding the beast in a sense because it keeps the topic on the first page, hopefully Bioware just ignores it by this stage, but lets look at this mess objectively.

It is not a matter of my side saying no. It is a matter of your side wanting something that is obviously contriversal, and would only please a very small portion of the community while annoying others. I won't lie, I will still buy ME3 or DA2 even if Bioware dances the politically correct tune. Yet those resources could have been better spent for the majority of players in my opinion.

Regarding that Dragon Age example, I don't normally look for decency and politeness in a wh***house. But that didn't seem like Ferelden to me and seemed to break the sense of immersion in the game.

[SimonTheFrog]

ReconTeam wrote...

SimonTheFrog wrote...
And please don't stomp in this thread, spread some hate about how it shouldn't exist. It exists because it expresses the feelings of costumers just like yourself.

Yes I know I am feeding the beast in a sense because it keeps the topic on the first page, hopefully Bioware just ignores it by this stage, but lets look at this mess objectively.

It is not a matter of my side saying no. It is a matter of your side wanting something that is obviously contriversal, and would only please a very small portion of the community while annoying others. I won't lie, I will still buy ME3 or DA2 even if Bioware dances the politically correct tune. Yet those resources could have been better spent for the majority of players in my opinion.

Regarding that Dragon Age example, I don't normally look for decency and politeness in a wh***house. But that didn't seem like Ferelden to me and seemed to break the sense of immersion in the game.

Not sure where you get your numbers. I highly doubt, though, that the number of players that would enjoy having the option (whilst not even pursue it, maybe) is as small as you think.
It's a game where you can do interesting, unusual, funny, romantic stuff that you can't in real life. Like punching a reporter you don't like, or saying you have a lot of bullsht on a line to your "boss", or romance a blue alien. This is what fantasy is about. Doing cool stuff.
And my guess is that far more people like to have various romance options than you'd think. You know, trying stuff, see what happens... 

And if you feel very uncomfortable if any irrelevant NPC in a game asks your avatar whether he likes men, than this is NOT THE VIEW OF THE MAJORITY you claim belonging to. It's not.

Now i agree that it would take a lot of resources to make ANY LI available for both genders, but comon, this LI's would be recycled cinematics and the usual double recording for the voice actors. No new assets, no new levels, no new sounds, only a bit cut scene tweaking. This is NOT such a big deal in comparison to other areas of the game.

Modifié par SimonTheFrog, 09 mars 2010 - 03:54 .

[comicfan22]

ReconTeam wrote...


Regarding that Dragon Age example, I don't normally look for decency and politeness in a wh***house. But that didn't seem like Ferelden to me and seemed to break the sense of immersion in the game.

Sorry to get off topic but in Dragon Age, Fereldans
consider same-sex relations odd, but not immoral. Among the Crows, however,
there appears to be a large group that teaches that Crows, like Zevran should take part in sex with both genders.

This does not break immersion when, even in the Human Noble origin, you have the option to bed either a man or a woman and no one in your family disapproves. It is part of the world of Dragon Age. Just as, with the introduction of Hendel Mitra in the books, homosexuality exists in the Mass Effect Universe. You may feel uncomfortable but it DOES exist as it does exist in Real Life.

[Collider]

[quote]Arik7 wrote...
Characters are created and developed with fans in mind.[/quote]
Not necessarily. Tell me how exactly Harkin was developed with fans in mind. Do you think female players like being treated like that by Harkin? Not every character is developed from the whim of the fans, that should obvious to you. Partly because there is often no fan feedback to draw on, as well as conflicting fan feedback. AND scarcity of resources.

[quote]This is why Tali suddenly developed an attraction toward Shepard.[/quote]
It isn't "suddenly." If you think it's suddenly, then it's also suddenly that Zevran that can develop an attraction to male PC's. It's also suddenly that Thane can develop an attraction to female PC's. Should I go on?

But those romances aren't even on the same level.
It's explained during the romance that Tali had a crush on male shepard the entire time, but did not reveal feelings because she was afraid he would feel the same.

[quote]And don't even get me started on the Asari, an entire race of lip stick lesbians/bisexuals apparently created  to please horny heterosexual males.   (No offense to all the Asari fans out there.  They are kind of cool despite the reason for their existence in the ME games.)[/quote]
I agree.

[quote]Being homosexual would not fundamentally change a character.[/quote]
It's not about fundamnetally changing characters. It's about what the writers have in mind for their character. An entire team of bisexuals seems a bit outlandish, don't you think? These characters are varied and different. Ultimately a writer may decide that it would "out of character" for a character to be heterosexual, bisexual, or homosexual.

[quote]You should not be comparing sexual orientation with a moral choice like "burning down a village".[/quote]
I'm not saying the two are the same. I'm saying that writers, in addition to fan feedback, create characters and then keep them in a way they feel is in character.

[quote]Gay people come from all walks of life.[/quote]
Obvious. I'm not even talking about gay people in particular.

Writers don't  have to rationalize someone's sexuality, as was done with Zevran in DAO.[/quote]
It's about rationalizing it to themselves.

[quote]Just write any character, who happens to be gay/bisexual.[/quote]
This is an important note. That it's not as if we know for certain that any characters were intended upon the first phase of concept development to be heterosexual, bisexual, or homosexual. As is often the case, characters go through many mutations and iterations. Bisexual characters may have been considered at one point, then dropped because it did not fit the character they were creating.

[quote]There's absolutely nothing about Kaidan, Thane, Ashley or Tali that would preclude them from being bisexual.[/quote]
Never said so. That doesn't mean that a writer cannot decide that it would not be in character for them to be so.