7455 réponses à ce sujet

[jlb524]

Collider wrote...

But those romances aren't even on the same level.
It's explained during the romance that Tali had a crush on male shepard the entire time, but did not reveal feelings because she was afraid he would feel the same.

But this is revealed after the Tali romance started in ME2.  There was no hint of Tali's attraction to Shepard in ME1.  That line was added for convenience sake.

The same could be done with Tali and FemShep in ME3...'oh, I liked you Shepard but I was afraid to say anything before now because of the human cutural taboos against homosexuality'.  See, easy!

Modifié par jlb524, 09 mars 2010 - 04:04 .

[Collider]

Sure, but on the other hand the writers need to understand that their characters need to respond to the PC's behaviour, and to some extent to what the player is trying to get out of the game.

No problem with that. That doesn't mean characters should magically be heterosexual, bisexual, or homosexual somehow because Shepard is male or female. I want a consistent universe, and it appears that the developers want that to.

I'm going to talk about KOTOR II because I feel it may be brought up. First of it's not made by Bioware. Second of all, Handmaiden or Disciple join based upon gender, yes, but that is not indicative of their sexualities being changed.

I agree that the NPCs can't be completely different for two playthroughs of the game, but they could be somewhat different.  In KOTOR, in JE, and in DA the behaviour of the PC affects the character of some of the NPCs (trying to keep it spoiler free here).

That's VERY different from the player's gender affecting them (not their behavior) in advance.

So the question is would allowing an NPC to have different sexual orientations (which I don't think makes them bisexual by the way) in different playthroughs of the game be too much of a change?

Think about what you're suggesting. Unless NPC's make a point that they're not attracted to the opposite gender of the PC, it makes no difference whether they are heterosexual in one playthrough, and homosexual in the other. It's the same as being bisexual.
There's no difference between Kaidan being homosexual if you're male Shepard & heterosexual if you're female shepard to him just being bisexual, unless Kaidan tells the PC (OMG I don't like girls) etc if you're male shepard, which is...just you know. stupid.

Modifié par Collider, 09 mars 2010 - 04:04 .

[SimonTheFrog]

Why would anyone decide against bisexuality?! I mean, really, what's the artistic "point" in not including the option?

There is no gain... only limitation.

I see that it would be strange if all NPC's would be strictly gay on the Normandy. But having an option that you can pursue or not? How can this "break" a character?

Why is my femShep such a nasty person that Miranda would be "broken" if she would fall in love with her? Why would Miranda be any different if she would develop feelings for her commander? It's not like she would have to give up her religion, loyalty or weapon of choice. Its just about falling in love for goddamsake ^^

[Ryzaki]

...Considering Shepard's a giant Mary/Gary Sue/Stu we really shouldn't be debating good literature rules. No offense.

A video games prime directive is to sell well, the second is (sometimes) to tell a story, provide entertainment, etc. (Usually 2 ties in to 1 but there are some exceptions).

If the majority of consumers want something in the game most of the time it will squeeze its way into the game. Considering of course its not a collossal waste of time and effort.

And frankly the game should be fun. I mean say none of the male crewmembers are bi if you must BioWare but don't tell me my Commander Shepard can't be gay. Because that's BS.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 09 mars 2010 - 04:09 .

[Inquisitor Recon]

Ryzaki wrote...


Really? 

I mean....really? 

I'm faced with the objectification of females in video games every day and find it irritating but I never fly in a rage about it. Edit: Well most of the time. When its forced in my face every 3 minutes of gameplay is where I draw the line.

And heck that's usually far more in my face than a gay option was in DA.

Uh. I hate when guys complain "Oh noes! I feel uncomfortables! I don't want to see this kind of thing!"

Welcome to the damn club. <_< Do what the rest of us do and suck it the hell up. "Oh noes! Someone else has a choice that I don't personally like! Instead of ignoring it and moving on I'm going to throw a hissy fit even though I'm perfectly capable of ignoring it!"

Honestly the Pearl isn't even forced in your face. You have to go there of your own free will. Me thinks you don't really have any reasons to complain. And no one forces you to sleep with the men just choose the woman and move along.

Oh I didn't toss my keyboard at the screen or anything, I think wanting to slap her was the most appropriate response for my Grey Warden regardless of my being offended in the real world. You don't ask a man like him if he likes men, and you especially don't ask it like one would ask about the weather. It may be a wh***house but that isn't good business. Maybe if I acted like Zevran or asked for that sort of thing, but Bioware shouldn't craft their games to be in such a politically correct universe where people aren't offended by such a thing.

But you've gotten me off-topic onto how that example was un-immersive.

Generally I "deal with" enough in the real world where I really don't need a fat bartender hitting on my male Grey Warden or Garrus deciding he likes human males. I would rather not be reminded of society's problems in the real world. Indeed, everybody is offended by something, but I simply believe that Bioware work to it's main demographic.

[Collider]

jlb524 wrote...
But this is revealed after the Tali romance started in ME2.

Doesn't matter. If Tali's romance is "sudden" to him, then so is every other romance, especially since aside from Garrus they develop over one game.

There was no hint of Tali's attraction to Shepard in ME1.

This again is explained. Usually people don't reveal their feelings for a crush they think will not be receptive. This is akin to the shy girl in class who thinks that the popular good looking guy would never like her, and therefore does not let him know if she can help it.

That line was added for convenience sake.

You don't know why it was added. You aren't bioware.

The same could be done with Tali and FemShep in ME3...'oh, I liked you Shepard but I was afraid to say anything before now because of the human cutural taboos against homosexuality'.  See, easy!

I never had a problem with this happening (beyond thinking it to be a waste of resources) So what's your point?

[SimonTheFrog]

[quote]ReconTeam wrote...

[quote]Ryzaki wrote...


<snip>

Generally I "deal with" enough in the real world where I really don't need a fat bartender hitting on my male Grey Warden or Garrus deciding he likes human males. I would rather not be reminded of society's problems in the real world. Indeed, everybody is offended by something, but I simply believe that Bioware work to it's main demographic.


[/quote]

Being gay is NOT a social problem, by the way 

[Ryzaki]

ReconTeam wrote...

Oh I didn't toss my keyboard at the screen or anything, I think wanting to slap her was the most appropriate response for my Grey Warden regardless of my being offended in the real world. You don't ask a man like him if he likes men, and you especially don't ask it like one would ask about the weather. It may be a wh***house but that isn't good business. Maybe if I acted like Zevran or asked for that sort of thing, but Bioware shouldn't craft their games to be in such a politically correct universe where people aren't offended by such a thing.

But you've gotten me off-topic onto how that example was un-immersive.

Generally I "deal with" enough in the real world where I really don't need a fat bartender hitting on my male Grey Warden or Garrus deciding he likes human males. I would rather not be reminded of society's problems in the real world. Indeed, everybody is offended by something, but I simply believe that Bioware work to it's main demographic.

Uh. You realize that no one overly cares about that in Fereldan right? You're not in the real world. Fereldan has a far more lax attitude in regards to sex and violence than the real world. Also considering you were in FERELDAN it probably *is* costumary to ask. No one overly cares in Fereldan or did you not notice that?  Someone liking the same sex doesn't cause the average Fereldan to go: "OMG! You're GAY! " most just go: "Oh...okay?" No one seems to care. You're projecting your own views unto the game, the game isn't being politically correct as you are being far too sensitive.

I could go on a whole rant about how Morrigan is an example of sexism in video games if I was to act as senstive as you are being over the whole Pearl Business. Wouldn't stop my rant from being any more nonsense but like you I could make a mountain out of a molehill.

Also...there was nothing politically correct about a w****house. Get real.

*sighs* Yeah. I'm gettings "Oh noes!" vibes.

[jlb524]

Ryzaki wrote...

...Considering Shepard's a giant Mary/Gary Sue/Stu we really shouldn't be debating good literature rules. No offense.

A video games prime directive is to sell well, the second is (sometimes) to tell a story, provide entertainment, etc. (Usually 2 ties in to 1 but there are some exceptions).

I agree.  Mass Effect is a game, not the same as a piece of literature.  The story is up to the player to shape in some instances and not in others.  The game does provide limitations to what the character can and can't do, but these follow along the lines of main plot and morality (For example, I can't refuse to join Cerberus....you have to join them to continue the story).  I'm also limited to a 'good'/'bad' morality scale since these choices by Shepard still have to fit into the overall story.

However, things like romances and classes and hair-styles and costumes give the player chances to customize their Shepard character.  These things do not affect the plot, the 'universe' in anyway.  The simply give the player more options and add to the replayability of the game.  The characters themselves might be important to the plot, but their sexuality, or which Shepards they will romance, is not.   If you make Thane bisexual, he won't all of a sudden run off and destroy the Collectors himself.  He'd still be Thane.

I think more options is good for the gaming media...not good in literature.  In literature the story is fixed, the characters are fixed for all readers and this is fine b/c the readers don't interact with a book in the same way they do in an RPG game. 

Modifié par jlb524, 09 mars 2010 - 04:17 .

[Collider]

[quote]SimonTheFrog wrote...
Why would anyone decide against bisexuality?![/quote]
Because it's not in character for them? I realize sexuality ideally would not make any entire character who they are, but it's realistically it's not something that is a light switch within a person. In some cases it would require new animations and models.

[quote]I mean, really, what's the artistic "point" in not including the option?[/quote]
It's not like the bisexual romances can appear with a snap of the thumb. You also need to record lines, and that costs resources. If bisexuality is not in line with the writer's interpretation of their character, so be it.
[quote]There is no gain... only limitation.[/quote]
The gain is character integrity versus breaking the possible will of the writers by making them bisexual.
I see that it would be strange if all NPC's would be strictly gay on the Normandy.[/quote]
How does that any different from all NPCs being bisexual? They're both sexual orientations, and neither is inherently better than the other.

[quote]But having an option that you can pursue or not? How can this "break" a character?[/quote]
It may not break them, but it can run counter to how the writers saw the character.

[quoe]Why is my femShep such a nasty person that Miranda would be "broken" if she would fall in love with her?[/quote]
It's not the same thing. If a person in real life rejects you or doesn't fall in love with you due to your gender, that doesn't mean they are shallow (LOL) or think you are a horrible person. They just aren't attracted to that gender.

[Collider]

ReconTeam wrote...
Generally I "deal with" enough in the real world where I really don't need a fat bartender hitting on my male Grey Warden or Garrus deciding he likes human males.

Oh big freaking deal. Just turn them down. Problem solved.

I would rather not be reminded of society's problems in the real world. Indeed, everybody is offended by something, but I simply believe that Bioware work to it's main demographic.

LOL you're playing the wrong games if you don't want to be reminded of society's actual problems. Go play pong or something, because Mass Effect and Dragon Age have genuine political and violent conflicts that emulate real world conflicts.

[Inquisitor Recon]

*fixed quoting errors*

comicfan22 wrote...
Sorry to get off topic but in Dragon Age, Fereldans
consider same-sex relations odd, but not immoral. Among the Crows, however,
there appears to be a large group that teaches that Crows, like Zevran should take part in sex with both genders.

This does not break immersion when, even in the Human Noble origin, you have the option to bed either a man or a woman and no one in your family disapproves. It is part of the world of Dragon Age. Just as, with the introduction of Hendel Mitra in the books, homosexuality exists in the Mass Effect Universe. You may feel uncomfortable but it DOES exist as it does exist in Real Life.

But in real life there is still some expectation to keep such business behind closed doors. Or at least here in the States. I haven't been across the border in some time but I imagine your typical Canadian male would be offended if another guy hit on him. I don't think Bioware should base their universe around this politically correct "ideal" some have, where homosexuality is right in the open and people have no problem with that.

I have simple tastes, my strippers female, my booze strong, and my foes dead. I am sure the majority agrees with me here unless society got even more screwed up in the head. That is why I see no reason to add such a waste of resources to ME3 to please a very small but vocal minority.

Modifié par ReconTeam, 09 mars 2010 - 04:23 .

[Ryzaki]

Collider wrote...

ReconTeam wrote...
Generally I "deal with" enough in the real world where I really don't need a fat bartender hitting on my male Grey Warden or Garrus deciding he likes human males.

Oh big freaking deal. Just turn them down. Problem solved.

I would rather not be reminded of society's problems in the real world. Indeed, everybody is offended by something, but I simply believe that Bioware work to it's main demographic.

LOL you're playing the wrong games if you don't want to be reminded of society's actual problems. Go play pong or something, because Mass Effect and Dragon Age have genuine political and violent conflicts that emulate real world conflicts.

OMG

Me and Collider actually agree on something. Tis a miracle! 

[jlb524]

Collider wrote...

I never had a problem with this happening (beyond thinking it to be a waste of resources) So what's your point?

I thought you had a problem with it.  Nevermind then.

Though, I don't see why it would be a waste of resources.  Was it a waste of resources to add the Talimance in ME2?

[Collider]

jlb524 wrote...

Collider wrote...

I never had a problem with this happening (beyond thinking it to be a waste of resources) So what's your point?

I thought you had a problem with it.  Nevermind then.

Though, I don't see why it would be a waste of resources.  Was it a waste of resources to add the Talimance in ME2?

It's a waste of resources considering they could have done it when Tali was romanceable at all (ME2) and the fact that you would have to start the romance from scratch (femshep never had the discussion about taking immunity boosters, etc, there's no pre-suicide mission intimacy) effectively making two different romances for female shepards and male shepards, which a lot of you seem to disagree with. Meaning, you disagree with the idea that "making" or having characters be bisexual would not and should not fundamentally change the romance or character. For example, one poster said that Thane being bisexual would not make him destroy the collectors alone (?????).

[Collider]

Ryzaki wrote...
OMG

Me and Collider actually agree on something. Tis a miracle! 

This has happened before.

[Ryzaki]

Collider wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
OMG

Me and Collider actually agree on something. Tis a miracle! 

This has happened before.

Really? I don't remember.

I still wish Alistiar had been the Bi option. "Have you ever licked a lampost in winter?" 

Why?

Why?

[Inquisitor Recon]

Collider wrote...
Oh big freaking deal. Just turn them down. Problem solved.

The problem will be solved when I can show said individual why you don't say such things to my character. Or Bioware simply ignores demands for "gay Kaidan" in Mass Effect.

LOL you're playing the wrong games if you don't want to be reminded of society's actual problems. Go play pong or something, because Mass Effect and Dragon Age have genuine political and violent conflicts that emulate real world conflicts.

Yes I seem to have forgotten the Reaper that landed in Iran recently...
Your not convincing me here. Why should I support such a demand when the development time can go to something I and the majority of players would rather have?

[Collider]

ReconTeam wrote...

Collider wrote...
Oh big freaking deal. Just turn them down. Problem solved.

The problem will be solved when I can show said individual why you don't say such things to my character. Or Bioware simply ignores demands for "gay Kaidan" in Mass Effect.

Yea, I can totally see good PR for Bioware if they allow you to committ violence against homosexuals and homosexuality because it's homosexual. That's sarcasm btw.

LOL you're playing the wrong games if you don't want to be reminded of society's actual problems. Go play pong or something, because Mass Effect and Dragon Age have genuine political and violent conflicts that emulate real world conflicts.

Yes I seem to have forgotten the Reaper that landed in Iran recently...
Your not convincing me here. Why should I support such a demand when the development time can go to something I and the majority of players would rather have?

I don't remember anyone saying that you in particular should support it. A lot of the game was not based upon what fans explicitely wanted. It's not the fans that request and write every detail of the story and the environments. Yet both are swell, the environments are particularly exceptional if you take the time to look at them.

Modifié par Collider, 09 mars 2010 - 04:31 .

[Arik7]

Collider, if you understand that gay people come in all character types, then how can bisexuality/homosexuality be "out of character"? We have evangelists and family-values Republican politicians getting outed, and yet it would be "out of character" for ME2 NPCs to be gay???  

Modifié par Arik7, 09 mars 2010 - 04:41 .

[jlb524]

Collider wrote...

It's a waste of resources considering they could have done it when Tali was romanceable at all (ME2) and the fact that you would have to start the romance from scratch (femshep never had the discussion about taking immunity boosters, etc, there's no pre-suicide mission intimacy) effectively making two different romances for female shepards and male shepards, which a lot of you seem to disagree with. Meaning, you disagree with the idea that "making" or having characters be bisexual would not and should not fundamentally change the romance or character. For example, one poster said that Thane being bisexual would not make him destroy the collectors alone (?????).

I don't have a problem with two different romances based on player gender.  The Liara romance was even slightly different for FemShep (you get the 'But you're female!' option).  I don't feel these differences should change the character, nor would it change the character if executed properly.  The addition of that line for FemShep didn't change Liara's character at all.  Same goes for Tali if she was reluctant to start something with FemShep b/c of her fear of human taboos.  Tali's the same Tali it's just that her romance with FemShep is a bit different from DudeShep.

And about wasting resources....I have a feeling the Tali/FemShep romance would be quite popular, so if they're going to add more romances in ME3 then why not?   They can cut down on Jacob's ME3 romantic content, since most FemSheps didn't romance that poor guy.  The Tali/FemShep ME3 romance dialog could be similar to what happened b/w Tali/MaleShep in ME2, except with the explanation for why Tali didn't pursue it earlier would be different.

[Collider]

I'm not saying that any character in particular it would be out of character for. Why? Because I am not the writer of any of these characters. I am saying that the WRITERS themselves can decide that their character is not heterosexual, bisexual, or homosexual. Are you saying that you would fault the writers for the Duke Nukem character if he was not able to make homosexual one liners and rescue scantily clad male strippers?

[Ryzaki]

...List of Bisexual characters in DA: (Either by expressing interest or actual sex)

Human Noble Origin: Darren, Iona
Actual LIs: Zevran, Leliana
The Pearl: Various prostitues, Isabella

Straight options only (Either by expressing interest or actual sex)
Mage Origin: Cullen, Jowan
Dalish Elf Origin: Tamlen
Dwarf Noble: Gorin, The Noble Hunters (Females)
Dalish Camp: Gheyna, Cammen
Redcliffe: Bella, that girl with the lost brother

Oh noes! Totally being swarmed by bisexual and gay people!

Seriously its like complaining about having $1000 when someone else has $100. Like seriously.

BTW: You do realize that if the "majority" had their way most games would only be for kids right? 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 09 mars 2010 - 04:38 .

[Arik7]

jlb524 wrote...

Collider wrote...

It's a waste of resources considering they could have done it when Tali was romanceable at all (ME2) and the fact that you would have to start the romance from scratch (femshep never had the discussion about taking immunity boosters, etc, there's no pre-suicide mission intimacy) effectively making two different romances for female shepards and male shepards, which a lot of you seem to disagree with. Meaning, you disagree with the idea that "making" or having characters be bisexual would not and should not fundamentally change the romance or character. For example, one poster said that Thane being bisexual would not make him destroy the collectors alone (?????).

I don't have a problem with two different romances based on player gender.  The Liara romance was even slightly different for FemShep (you get the 'But you're female!' option).  I don't feel these differences should change the character, nor would it change the character if executed properly.  The addition of that line for FemShep didn't change Liara's character at all.  Same goes for Tali if she was reluctant to start something with FemShep b/c of her fear of human taboos.  Tali's the same Tali it's just that her romance with FemShep is a bit different from DudeShep.

And about wasting resources....I have a feeling the Tali/FemShep romance would be quite popular, so if they're going to add more romances in ME3 then why not?   They can cut down on Jacob's ME3 romantic content, since most FemSheps didn't romance that poor guy.  The Tali/FemShep ME3 romance dialog could be similar to what happened b/w Tali/MaleShep in ME2, except with the explanation for why Tali didn't pursue it earlier would be different.

Those who did not play ME2 will probably get a chance to begin a fresh romance with Tali.  That's an excellent opportunity to allow Female Shepards to do the same.  Same goes for Kaidan and Male Shepard.

Modifié par Arik7, 09 mars 2010 - 04:38 .

[SimonTheFrog]

[quote]Collider wrote...

[quote]SimonTheFrog wrote...
Why would anyone decide against bisexuality?![/quote]
Because it's not in character for them? I realize sexuality ideally would not make any entire character who they are, but it's realistically it's not something that is a light switch within a person. In some cases it would require new animations and models.

[quote]I mean, really, what's the artistic "point" in not including the option?[/quote]
It's not like the bisexual romances can appear with a snap of the thumb. You also need to record lines, and that costs resources. If bisexuality is not in line with the writer's interpretation of their character, so be it.
[quote]There is no gain... only limitation.[/quote]
The gain is character integrity versus breaking the possible will of the writers by making them bisexual.
I see that it would be strange if all NPC's would be strictly gay on the Normandy.[/quote]
How does that any different from all NPCs being bisexual? They're both sexual orientations, and neither is inherently better than the other.

[quote]But having an option that you can pursue or not? How can this "break" a character?[/quote]
It may not break them, but it can run counter to how the writers saw the character.

[quoe]Why is my femShep such a nasty person that Miranda would be "broken" if she would fall in love with her?[/quote]
It's not the same thing. If a person in real life rejects you or doesn't fall in love with you due to your gender, that doesn't mean they are shallow (LOL) or think you are a horrible person. They just aren't attracted to that gender.
[/quote]


I won't quote/dequote, so it's all in the end here. 

In real life, people obviously "tick" in a certain way (even in RL people can meet someone who switches that exact flip you mentioned... happens quite often actually) but this is not rl. It's a fantasy setup with only ONE purpose: to entertain the player.
The NPC's in the game obviously have their roles, some to annoy you, some to frighten you, others to be buddies, others to pounce you. And i see that these roles are important and cannot be mixed easily.

But again, what is the artistic gain, which according to you is so important for the writer, in making a character nothing but straight. What is so much more artistic about a straight Miranda than one that falls in love with my female Shepard? Especially if Miranda is offering to falling in love with both genders.

You see, there is even no explanation needed for her background. They went a long way to explain why boobed Liara can love you. Its completely redundant in my eyes. She loves you because you are special and she sees that. That's all i need to know.

And if Miranda tells me that she feels something for me i dont need to know if she ever had a man or girl before. Of if that strange for her or not. I don't give a darn. I just accept she does and pursue it or not. 

Apart from that all her daddy issues, Oriana, Cerberus... nothing would change. Nothing in her behavior would change. Not even her looks, her genetic modification or her ability to shot a mech in the head over a 100 yard.

It's really just not the case that the label "gay", or "bisexual" or whatever play a significant role for a game NPC in a way how he/she blends into the story or plays his/her role as squadmate and doing NPC stuff. Especially if the designer make all that stuff optional and don't make the character say "f*** off" everytime you enter the room after giving the "lets be friends" talk. That was a bit weird.