7455 réponses à ce sujet

[Arik7]

Collider wrote...

Arik7 wrote...
The reason for absense of same-sex romance is similar: a perceived lack of demand.

Oh, I had no idea you were Bioware.

I am not, but this guy is ------> http://meforums.biow...05519&forum=144

[SimonTheFrog]

Collider wrote...


as well as kelly. but the most important thing is that the majority of tali fans are male and want to be able to romance tali as male. I think it is distasteful to act upon the whims of the guys who brainlessly want to see lesbians to get their jollies.

 

Hm... yeah, there are probably numerically more male Tali fans than female Tali fans. So? Not all male Tali fans play dudeShep.
And, oi, the suggestion that the whole romance subplot is pursued for "action" alone is just insulting. I mean, yes, it WOULD be distasteful to act up the whims of players you are describing. But those players are not the ones that started the thread here or trying to express their wishes and hopes for m/m and f/f romances.
Well, i didn't. I don't give a damn if i see nude or whatever. i want to see the relationship getting deep and serious from flirt to commitment. This may involve a nice scene but it's NOT the point.

[jlb524]

Collider wrote...

You have to be realistic now. They would have to condense the entire romance into one game, in another environment than ME2 was. The romance would NOT have the precedent of romancing her in ME2. It would be fundamentally different. Wouldn't you be annoyed if in ME3 Liara made not indication that you had a relationship with her and slept with her in ME1?

You can't compare the Tali romance with the Liara romance here.  The Tali romance would just be starting for FemShep while the Liara one has been ongoing for three games.  Of course I'd be annoyed with Liara if there was no indication of prior romance with her, but not with Tali because there wasn't a prior romance with her.  As far as being in a different environment, the ME2 Tali romance seemed pretty independent of what was going on with the Collectors.  Move it into ME3 and now we're fighting the Reapers.  What changes?

No, never said that. I am saying that for the guys who just want lebian loving, there is always miranda and jack as potential candidates. they actually show some skin. for the dudes who want to see their femshep getting it on with a woman, this is probably what they want. skin. so if you want to satisfy those guys, go with miranda or jack. or another female character.

as well as kelly. but the most important thing is that the majority of tali fans are male and want to be able to romance tali as male. I think it is distasteful to act upon the whims of the guys who brainlessly want to see lesbians to get their jollies.

Men who play these romances just want to see skin? Really? They don't care at all about the romance. They want to see all 2 seconds of Miranda's bra? The Jack love scene is tame (they're clothed...not real hot if you ask me). If these straight men want to see lesbian skin, they'd watch an 'adult-film'. Why doesn't the same apply to these straight men that play as a MaleShepard? Why go for Tali who shows no skin? You don't think it tasteless the guys that brainlessly romance Miranda with a MaleShep just to see her skin (what little there is )

Collider wrote...

Of course I could say it. But you honestly don't equate the importance of continuing romances to having new romances altogether, wouldn't you? Don't you think it would be annoying if the Liara romance wasn't continued because Bioware thought it would be better use of resources just to make a new romance? Think about this. Most of the fans want their romance to continue, they are not pining for the invisible and unknown romances that may be in ME3. You have to put context into this.

Of course not.  I was just saying that if they do decide to add new romances, why not with old characters that weren't romanceable before for some reason?

Collider wrote...

No, what I'm saying is that unlike Kaidan/Liara/Ashley/Jack/Miranda/straight Tali romances, the female romance with tali would not have the precedent of the relationship having occured in the other games. Therefore having to make the romance unique. Because clearly the romance continuations in ME3 are going to be just that - Liara is not going to act like you never showed interest in her. The relationships are going to expand and continue, not start over as if they never happened. Get it?

I get it.  Of course they're not going to start over with the old romances and they will expand them (hopefully).  The new FemShep/Tali romance wouldn't of course.  I don't see a problem with this.  Not all romances have to follow the 'expand and continue'.  For all we know, they might offer new choices for ME3...we might even have all new squad mates with only a few returning.  The new Tali romance would start and conclude like the MaleShep one did in ME2.  Imagine if Tali died in ME2...it would be the same romance for him (it starts, they had their night of love and that's it) as it would be for the new FemShep that has a conclusion due to the series ending (and not Tali dying).

[jlb524]

Collider wrote...

jlb524 wrote...
@Collider

I wasn't talking about you, but the writers.   I explained how they changed their minds about a character's sexuality from ME1 to ME2 (Tali).  These things happen.

I never said they didn't happen. The whole conversation began from me saying that maybe certain characters are not bisexual, heterosexual, or homosexual because the writers decided it would not in character. How this entire conversations started from that is beyond me. Do you dispute what is italicized?

I never did dispute this.  I just think the same can be said for the Tali romance:

that mabye certain characters are not attracted to Shepard because the writers decided it would not be in character.

All I'm saying is that writers can change their minds.  Once they decide something about a character, it's hardly set in stone.  This was proved with the Tali romance example.  They changed their minds on something they decided about a character in regards to sexuality.

[Arik7]

gmartin40 wrote...

Arik7 wrote...

Collider wrote...

Arik7 wrote...
The reason for absense of same-sex romance is similar: a perceived lack of demand.

Oh, I had no idea you were Bioware.

I am not, but this guy is ------> http://meforums.biow...05519&forum=144

He also said they ran out of time. Back when ME1 was still the **** people didn't want f/f or m/m romance. BW wasn't  going to do what their fans didn't want. Plus, they had a time limit. I believe that if ME2 came out a little later we might have seen more same sex romances. But instead, we didn't and now people are throwing hissy-fits.

But is there a shred of evidence to suggest that ME fans would be against the idea?  From all the polls I've seen here, about 65% support same-sex romances...

Modifié par Arik7, 09 mars 2010 - 05:34 .

[jlb524]

Collider wrote...

It's not deciding that she's now attracted to Shepard. It was deciding that she was always attracted to Shepard. You don't know whether they specifically decided that Tali was not attracted to Shepard versus deciding that she was not going to be a romance in ME1.

You're missing the point.  I don't care about when they say Tali the character was attracted to Shepard.  They wrote it so she was always attracted to Shepard...that's great.  So now when you play ME1, you can sit back and think that Tali is attracted to you (even though there's no indication of it).  Wonderful.

I only care about when the writers themselves decided that she was attracted to Shepard.  They changed their minds on this because they did not write her attracted to Shepard during the time period in which they sat down to write ME1.  Later when they sat down to write ME2, they decided that she was now interested in Shepard. 

[Collider]

[quote]jlb524 wrote...

[quote]Collider wrote...

You have to be realistic now. They would have to condense the entire romance into one game, in another environment than ME2 was. The romance would NOT have the precedent of romancing her in ME2. It would be fundamentally different. Wouldn't you be annoyed if in ME3 Liara made not indication that you had a relationship with her and slept with her in ME1?

[/quote]

You can't compare the Tali romance with the Liara romance here.  The Tali romance would just be starting for FemShep while the Liara one has been ongoing for three games.  Of course I'd be annoyed with Liara if there was no indication of prior romance with her, but not with Tali because there wasn't a prior romance with her.  As far as being in a different environment, the ME2 Tali romance seemed pretty independent of what was going on with the Collectors.  Move it into ME3 and now we're fighting the Reapers.  What changes?[/quote]

Okay, I don't know this is so hard for you to grasp. Do you agree that the Liara romance in ME1 will be different from the one in ME3? Yes? Then you have your answer. ME1 is first getting to know Liara, and starting the relationship with her. ME3 is continuing the relationship. That's two games of development.

For a femshep tali romance, you would need to condense it into one game. you wouldn't have the precedence that you would have if instead you romanced Liara in ME1. Get it? It would two romances just for tali. WTF?

[quote]They want to see all 2 seconds of Miranda's bra?[/quote]
uh, yes? Do you not realize games have been made specifically for guys who want pixelated nudity, despite the abundance of nudity on the internet?

[quote]The Jack love scene is tame (they're clothed...not real hot if you ask me). If these straight men want to see lesbian skin, they'd watch an 'adult-film'.[/quote]
Oh please. Don't kid me. They are going to like seeing lesbian skin either way. Also fairly certain that the Jack and Miranda romances feature an on-screen kiss.

[quote]Why doesn't the same apply to these straight men that play as a MaleShepard?[/quote]
I never said they didn't.



[quote]You don't think it tasteless the guys that brainlessly romance Miranda with a MaleShep just to see her skin (what little there is )[/quote]
I never said that. I am saying that from what I have seen from these guys.

[quote]Of course not.  I was just saying that if they do decide to add new romances, why not with old characters that weren't romanceable before for some reason?[/quote]
um, they WERE romanceable. So that doesn't even make sense.

[quote]
I get it.  Of course they're not going to start over with the old romances and they will expand them (hopefully).  The new FemShep/Tali romance wouldn't of course.[/quote]
Uh, it would. Because it would a new relationship.

[quote]I don't see a problem with this.[/quote]
the problem is that is a waste of resources IMO.

[quote]Not all romances have to follow the 'expand and continue'.[/quote]
I'm not saying. I'm nothing the absurdity of developing two different romances each for both genders, for a small minority of the tali fans.

[quote]The new Tali romance would start and conclude like the MaleShep one did in ME2.[/quote]
Yea, real great use of resources there. *rolls eyes*
[quote]Imagine if Tali died in ME2...it would be the same romance for him (it starts, they had their night of love and that's it) as it would be for the new FemShep that has a conclusion due to the series ending (and not Tali dying).
[/quote]
Uh, no. If Tali died in ME2, she's dead. There is no Tali in ME3. you could not import that playthrough have tali alive, because she died.

Modifié par Collider, 09 mars 2010 - 05:39 .

[Arik7]

jlb524 wrote...

Collider wrote...

It's not deciding that she's now attracted to Shepard. It was deciding that she was always attracted to Shepard. You don't know whether they specifically decided that Tali was not attracted to Shepard versus deciding that she was not going to be a romance in ME1.

You're missing the point.  I don't care about when they say Tali the character was attracted to Shepard.  They wrote it so she was always attracted to Shepard...that's great.  So now when you play ME1, you can sit back and think that Tali is attracted to you (even though there's no indication of it).  Wonderful.

I only care about when the writers themselves decided that she was attracted to Shepard.  They changed their minds on this because they did not write her attracted to Shepard during the time period in which they sat down to write ME1.  Later when they sat down to write ME2, they decided that she was now interested in Shepard. 

Yeah, but you forget that ME is an infallible word of God, with no retconning and no contradictions of any kind.... 

[Collider]

jlb524 wrote...
All I'm saying is that writers can change their minds.

Then why are we even having this discussion?

[Arik7]

Collider wrote...

jlb524 wrote...
All I'm saying is that writers can change their minds.

Then why are we even having this discussion?

To change their minds.

Modifié par Arik7, 09 mars 2010 - 05:41 .

[Collider]

jlb524 wrote...
I only care about when the writers themselves decided that she was attracted to Shepard.  They changed their minds on this because they did not write her attracted to Shepard during the time period in which they sat down to write ME1.  Later when they sat down to write ME2, they decided that she was now interested in Shepard. 

I wasn't talking about the continuity between two games when I talked about writers deciding that their character was not bisexual or whatever. In particular, I was talking about ME2, which is one game.

[comicfan22]

gmartin40 wrote...


He also said they ran out of time. Back when ME1 was still the **** people didn't want f/f or m/m romance. BW wasn't  going to do what their fans didn't want. Plus, they had a time limit. I believe that if ME2 came out a little later we might have seen more same sex romances. But instead, we didn't and now people are throwing hissy-fits.

 I understand what you meant however and agree that if they had more time with ME2 we may have seen some same sex relationships. Its is, for the most part, that people are advocating for a s/s relationship in either an ME2 expantion or in ME3. I also don't think that there are "hissy fits" as you have put it but VERY passionate people, some perhaps too much at times.  This thread and it's FAQ is just here to suggest ways to implement it if Bioware decides to do so.

[jlb524]

Collider wrote...

Okay, I don't know this is so hard for you to grasp. Do you agree that the Liara romance in ME1 will be different from the one in ME3? Yes? Then you have your answer. ME1 is first getting to know Liara, and starting the relationship with her. ME3 is continuing the relationship. That's two games of development.

For a femshep tali romance, you would need to condense it into one game. you wouldn't have the precedence that you would have if instead you romanced Liara in ME1. Get it? It would two romances just for tali. WTF?

So?  I would expect Liara to have 2 different romances; one if you cheated on her in ME2 and one if you stayed faithful.  I don't think the Liara ME1 romance will be the same as the ME3 one, but that has nothing to do with a brand new romance that starts in ME3 (Tali's Female one).   For all we know, they could make Ashley/Kaida/Liara romanceable in ME3 for new players that didn't romance them in previous games.   I'd expect it to be different from someone who romanced them all three games, but would I care if they add a new, shorter romance for them in ME3?  No.

Collider wrote...

They want to see all 2 seconds of Miranda's bra?

uh, yes? Do you not realize games have been made specifically for guys who want pixelated nudity, despite the abundance of nudity on the internet?

The Jack love scene is tame (they're clothed...not real hot if you ask me). If these straight men want to see lesbian skin, they'd watch an 'adult-film'.

Oh please. Don't kid me. They are going to like seeing lesbian skin either way. Also fairly certain that the Jack and Miranda romances feature an on-screen kiss.

Why doesn't the same apply to these straight men that play as a MaleShepard?

I never said they didn't.

You don't think it tasteless the guys that brainlessly romance Miranda with a MaleShep just to see her skin (what little there is )

I never said that. I am saying that from what I have seen from these guys.

I think we have a different opionion on what 'skin' and 'hot lesbian sex' is.  Also, just b/c a few straight male forumites post threads titled 'OMG!  I need hawt lesbian action' doesn't mean that all straight male gamers that want f/f options for romances feel this way. 

Of course not.  I was just saying that if they do decide to add new romances, why not with old characters that weren't romanceable before for some reason?

um, they WERE romanceable. So that doesn't even make sense.

I meant new romances with brand-new squadmates.

[jlb524]

Collider wrote...

I wasn't talking about the continuity between two games when I talked about writers deciding that their character was not bisexual or whatever. In particular, I was talking about ME2, which is one game.

Well, that's fine.  And if the writers decide that it would be cool to now make Jack (I'll switch up from using Tali) a F/F romance option in ME3, then they can write it so there is continuity b/w the two games in regards to her sexuality.   Same with the other ladies.

You can bring up the 'wasted resources' argument again, but all romances could be viewed as wasted resources.  Why add them at all?

Modifié par jlb524, 09 mars 2010 - 05:53 .

[Inquisitor Recon]

Arik7 wrote...
To change their minds.

Ever think it might have the opposite effect? Hopefully it does. Leave it to your fan fictions and cut this sense of entitlement you have here.

[Ryzaki]

ReconTeam wrote...

Arik7 wrote...
To change their minds.

Ever think it might have the opposite effect? Hopefully it does. Leave it to your fan fictions and cut this sense of entitlement you have here.

And didn't you say you were going to leave this thread alone?

Reminds me of the anti-Talimancers going into the Tali love thread to complain.

Wanting to change someone's mind =/= entitlement.

People need to stop throwing that word around whenever someone has a suggestion they don't agree with.

[Mordigan]

SimonTheFrog wrote...
How does that any different from all NPCs being bisexual? They're both sexual orientations, and neither is inherently better than the other.

Because heterosexuality is by far, the dominant sexuality amongst humans.  I would think the answer obvious

In real life, people obviously "tick" in a certain way (even in RL people can meet someone who switches that exact flip you mentioned... happens quite often actually

This is absolute crap, and you have zero evidence regarding the frequency at which people change their sexual orientation for a certain person so stop lying.

But again, what is the artistic gain, which according to you is so important for the writer, in making a character nothing but straight. What is so much more artistic about a straight Miranda than one that falls in love with my female Shepard? Especially if Miranda is offering to falling in love with both genders.

Perhaps the ME2 writers want to make their fictional Universe adhere to reality as much as possible, rather than a delusional fantasy Universe where everyone is bisexual..

[Ryzaki]

gmartin40 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

ReconTeam wrote...

Arik7 wrote...
To change their minds.

Ever think it might have the opposite effect? Hopefully it does. Leave it to your fan fictions and cut this sense of entitlement you have here.

And didn't you say you were going to leave this thread alone?

Reminds me of the anti-Talimancers going into the Tali love thread to complain.

Wanting to change someone's mind =/= entitlement.

People need to stop throwing that word around whenever someone has a suggestion they don't agree with.

People are entitled to their own opinion.

Damn you and your puns! *shakes fist*


Fine people are entitled to their opinions they are not entitled however to tell other people they are wasting their time. So

[Charsen]

Mordigan wrote...
Perhaps the ME2 writers want to make their fictional Universe adhere to reality as much as possible, rather than a delusional fantasy Universe where everyone is bisexual..

It's a story where the player is the main character. If someone thinks the main character should be involved in a romance with X NPC, why is it such a big deal to you? Why do you feel the need to say how someone else's story should play out? 

[BrianWilly]

Wanting equality and fair representation is not entitlement by any stretch of the imagination.  It's only entitlement if you want something that other people don't have, not something that others have but you don't.

For more information, please consult A) a dictionary, or the 4th bullet point of the excellent first-page FAQ, "Why are people so insistent that Bioware include gay and lesbian relationships in Mass Effect?"

[Mordigan]

Charsen wrote...

It's a story where the player is the main character. If someone thinks the main character should be involved in a romance with X NPC, why is it such a big deal to you? Why do you feel the need to say how someone else's story should play out? 

Who said I care how someone's story plays out?  And btw, it's not as though there are unlimited options in Mass Effect regarding how you can play your character.

The script writers are the ones that truly determine the direction of the story, and in ME2, those very same writers didn't make any of the crew (except Kelly and she'll screw anything with a pulse) bisexual.

Rational people understand and accept this truth, but there are always a few self centered folks that want to impose their desires on everyone else, regardless of how it affects the story or the setting..

SimontheFrog is a perfect example of said self centered folks.